Content deleted Content added
WOSlinkerBot (talk | contribs) m Fix font tag lint errors |
MalnadachBot (talk | contribs) m Fixed Lint errors. (Task 12) |
||
Line 174:
<small>[[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Non-admin closure|(non-admin closure)]]</small>
[[:Lúcia dos Santos]] → {{no redirect|Lúcia of Fátima}} – Current title, [[Lúcia dos Santos]], is not nearly as [[WP:RECOGNIZABLE]] / [[WP:COMMONNAME]] as [[Lúcia of Fátima]]. The lead even admits it: "<
*'''Oppose, per ancient n-grams''' <s>'''Unsure''' but will watch the discussion</s>. It is her real name, and the infobox, first mention in the lead, and her name on the template should reflect that by staying with her complete name, even if it is moved (I'm talking myself into lean-oppose). Some ancient n-grams should be dug up and exhibited on this. I just created the page 'Sister Lucia of Fatima' and redirected it here, so we'll see if views go up and sustain. [[user:Randy Kryn|Randy Kryn]] 23:26, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
::Well, this [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Lucia+Santos%2CLucia+of+Fatima%2CSister+Lucia+of+Fatima&year_start=1917&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CLucia%20Santos%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CLucia%20of%20Fatima%3B%2Cc0 n-gram measuring the three variations from 1917 to 2008] seems to support the present name pretty much overwhelmingly, and actually shows no results for 'Sister Lucia of Fatima'. Any proof that this has changed since 2008? [[user:Randy Kryn|Randy Kryn]] 1:28, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
Line 232:
:::'''Sister Lúcia''' (born '''Lúcia de Jesus dos Santos'''; Portuguese: <IPA pronunciation>; <birth–death range>), also known as '''Lúcia of Fátima''' and by her full [[religious name]] '''Sister Maria Lúcia of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart''', [[O.C.D.]], was a [[Portuguese]] [[Catholic]] [[nun]] and one of the three children to witness the 1917 [[Our Lady of Fátima|Marian apparitions]] at [[Fátima, Portugal|Fátima]].
::Her birth name would still be listed later in the infobox, where it really belongs. Having 2 and 3 and 4 names in the infobox header only creates clutter, confusion, and unnecessary redundancy. For example, I think the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Padre_Pio&oldid=730962752 current version] of the infobox in the [[Padre Pio]] article is too cluttered, especially the header and titles. [[User:Jujutsuan|<span style="color:green; font-weight:bold; font-style:italic;">Jujutsuan</span>]] (<small>Please notify with {{[[Template:re|re]]}}</small> [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 00:46, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
::::I also fail to see what the infobox has to do with [[WP:NC]]. [[User:Jujutsuan|<
* '''Oppose''': The events at Fatima occurred when the children were all young. Their later lives (not that the other two had much of a later life) were of much less importance to the story than what happened in 1917. At that time she was simply '''Lúcia dos Santos''', and that's what the article should remain as. -- [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-size:85%; font-family:Verdana;"><sup>[pleasantries]</sup></span>]] 00:54, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
::That's not an argument. What is the woman commonly called? Her secular name is clearly out. She was notable long after the events—e.g. when she published her memoirs—in the 19-FORTIES—and the Church investigated the events in subsequent decades. Even now she's a candidate for canonization—still relevant, and the most common version of her name is clearly not her secular name. Even if she ''had'' fallen out of relevance, her [[WP:COMMONNAME]] is in no way frozen at the moment she reaches peak fame. [[User:Jujutsuan|<span style="color:green; font-weight:bold; font-style:italic;">Jujutsuan</span>]] (<small>Please notify with {{[[Template:re|re]]}}</small> [[User talk:Jujutsuan|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jujutsuan|contribs]]) 00:58, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Line 239:
:::* Our Lady of Fátima (Portuguese: Nossa Senhora de Fátima, formally known as Our Lady of the Holy Rosary of Fátima Nossa Senhora do Rosário de Fátima European Portuguese: [ˈnɔsɐ sɨˈɲoɾɐ dɨ ˈfatimɐ] (Brazilian Portuguese [ˈnɔsɐ sĩˈȷ̃ɔɾɐ dʒi ˈfatʃimɐ]) is a Roman Catholic title of the Blessed Virgin Mary based on apparitions reported to have been experienced in 1917 by three shepherd children at Fátima, Portugal. The three children were '''Lúcia Santos and her cousins Jacinta and Francisco Marto'''. (my bolding)
::: This demonstrates that, when the story is told, the children are given their secular names. Yes, Lucia later took religious vows and a religious name, but that's not how she is known in the context of the events that made her notable, the appearances at Fatima. -- [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-size:85%; font-family:Verdana;"><sup>[pleasantries]</sup></span>]] 08:20, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
::::{{re|JackofOz}} If you had read the nomination, you would have seen the [[WP:COMMONNAME]] argument, and the Ngram that makes it painfully obvious. It's appropriate to call her "Lúcia dos Santos" in the [[Our Lady of Fátima]] article (needs to be corrected to "dos Santos" though, and qualified with something like "later known as Sister Lúcia"), since she wasn't a nun ("Sister") at the time. Regardless, that doesn't make her overall common name ''not'' "Sr. Lúcia". I'd suggest you look up a wide sample of the literature written about Sr. Lúcia, and you'll see that she is called "Sr. Lúcia" far more often than by her secular name. Or, do it the easy way and look at the Ngram in the nomination. (Note that while I abbreviated "Sister" by "Sr." here, I am not advocating use of the abbr. in the title.) [[User:Jujutsuan|<
:::::By your argument, [[Pope Benedict XVI]]'s article should be named "Joseph Ratzinger" simply because some other WP article "telling the story" of some aspect of his pre-papal career referred to him (appropriately) by his secular name when discussing the period before he became pope. Non sequitur. [[User:Jujutsuan|<
::::::Maybe it wouldn't be a bad general rule... We do not have "President XXX", or "Judge YYY" (unless that is the proper name, as in [[Judge Dredd]], nor most "<function> <person name>" pages, why Popes and Sisters?... We do have, e.g., [[Barack Obama]], with a redirect from [[President Barack Obama]]. - [[User:Nabla|Nabla]] ([[User talk:Nabla|talk]]) 10:45, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
----
| |||