Wikipedia

Talk:Charles the Bold: Difference between revisions

Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
Line 15:
{{OnThisDay|date1=2007-01-05|oldid1=98054192|date2=2008-01-05|oldid2=182088278|date3=2010-01-05|oldid3=335766541}}
{{Vital article|level=5|topic=People|subpage=Politicians|class=C}}
 
== Requested move ==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop -->
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of the {{{type|proposal}}}. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''
 
[[Charles I, Duke of Burgundy]] → [[Charles the Bold]] – The current title is rarely, if ever used (I have never seen it), as well as showing Habsburg POV ([[Charles II, Duke of Burgundy]], redirects to [[Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor]]). The replacement, however, is the most common name used. [[User:Michaelsanders|Michael]] [[User talk:Michaelsanders|Sanders]] 22:01, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
=== Survey ===
''Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" or other opinion in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>
*'''Support''' as nominator [[User:Michaelsanders|Michael]] [[User talk:Michaelsanders|Sanders]] 22:01, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per johnk & other arguments above [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] 23:07, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support''', although the question here is "would it be surprising to see him called Charles I". I think it would, but am open to persuasion otherwise. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 20:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. I definitely agree that the ordinal is inappropriate. The Library of Congress name heading is "Charles, Duke of Burgundy, 1433-1477". The English-language biographies (Kirk, Putnam, Vaughan) all call him "Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy". Only the recent work by Walsh calls him just "Charles the Bold". I would support a move to "Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy". [[User:Mcferran|Noel S McFerran]] 23:45, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. I vote for belt and braces: ''Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy''. This should help people not intimately acquainted with him to place the chap immediately. [[User:Nick Michael|Nick Michael]] 18:55, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Comment - this would be better than the present title. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] 19:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::::Perhaps: the issue, however, is if that combination is more commonly used than 'Charles the Bold'. The simple version gets [http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGGL,GGGL:2006-40,GGGL:en&q=%22Charles+the+Bold%22 96300 results]; the extended version gets [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGGL%2CGGGL%3A2006-40%2CGGGL%3Aen&q=%22Charles+the+Bold%2C+Duke+of+Burgundy%22&btnG=Search 17600 results]. [[User:Michaelsanders|Michael]] [[User talk:Michaelsanders|Sanders]] 19:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::This is an article title. It hardly matters how much the form of the title is used. One could read in a book "...the duke of Burgundy, Charles the Bold, who..." and that would be, for all intents and purposes, the same as "Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy." The real question is: Is "Charles the Bold" on its own sufficiently distinct and recognisable? [[User:Srnec|Srnec]] 05:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
=== Discussion ===
''Add any additional comments
:I have heard '''Charles the Rash''' more often then the proposed destination. [[User:Srnec|Srnec]] 01:17, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::Ghits 1,630 for "Charles the Rash", 103,000 for "Charles the Bold" [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] 02:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
''Charles the Rash'' is an accurate translation of the usual French appellation, ''Charles le téméraire''. However, I have read (but of course cannot recall the source) that during his lifetime Charles was called ''le hardi'', which translates as ''the bold''. It may well be that the English epithet has survived from Charles' lifetime, whereas the French one has changed to suit historians. Still, everyone knows Charlie B as ''the Bold'' as far as I know. Why can't the title encompass all things, and read ''Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy''? [[User:Nick Michael|Nick Michael]] 16:38, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:Perhaps. I'd personally say that "Charles the Bold" unappellated is the most common name (in English, if not French), and that there is 1)no need and 2)less use of "Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy". However, does anyone else have any thoughts? [[User:Michaelsanders|Michael]] [[User talk:Michaelsanders|Sanders]] 16:41, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
::There is a comment, which should probably be found and added, that the translation varies from "the Bold" to "the Rash" to "the Foolhardy" - depending on how closely the translator has been reading Charles' history. ;-> [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 23:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the {{{type|proposal}}}. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:pollbottom -->
''No-one argues in favour of "Charles I, …", which only leaves the question of whether to include the title "Duke of Burgundy". The two oppose votes are in favour of "Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy", but this looks like needless disambiguation, and such a title would probably be moved within a few months to simple "Charles the Bold". There does seem to be only one "Charles the Bold", so I see no reason not to move the article there now, with redirects from all other reasonable versions, of course.'' ''This article has been renamed {{{{{subst|}}}#if:Charles I, Duke of Burgundy|from [[Charles I, Duke of Burgundy]] to [[Charles the Bold]]}} as the result of a [[wikipedia:requested moves|move request]].'' --[[User:Stemonitis|Stemonitis]] 17:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Additional Information ==
Add topic
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Charles_the_Bold"