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Many of these questions arise frequently on the talk page concerning Muhammad. To view an explanation to the answer, click the [show] link to the right of the question.
Q1: Shouldn't all the images of Muhammad be removed because they might offend Muslims?
A1:
There is a prohibition of depicting Muhammad in certain Muslim communities. This prohibition is not universal among Muslim communities. For a discussion, see Depictions of Muhammad and Aniconism in Islam. Wikipedia is not bound by any religious prohibitions, and it is an encyclopedia that strives to represent all topics from a neutral point of view, and therefore Wikipedia is not censored for the sake of any particular group. So long as they are relevant to the article and do not violate any of Wikipedia's existing policies, nor the laws of locations where Wikipedia's servers are hosted, no content or images will be removed from Wikipedia because people find them objectionable or offensive. (See also: Wikipedia:Content disclaimer.) Wikipedia does not single out Islam in this. There is content that may be equally offensive to other religious people, such as the 1868 photograph shown at Bahá'u'lláh (offensive to adherents of the Bahá'í Faith), or the account of Scientology's "secret doctrine" at Xenu (offensive to adherents of Scientology), or the account at Timeline of human evolution (offensive to adherents of young Earth creationism). Submitting to all these various sensitivities would make writing a neutral encyclopedia impossible.
Q2: Aren't the images of Muhammad false?
A2: No claim is made about the accuracy of the depictions of Muhammad. The artists who painted these images lived hundreds of years after Muhammad and could not have seen him themselves. This fact is made absolutely clear in the image captions. The images are duly presented as notable 14th- to 17th-century Muslim artwork depicting Muhammad, not as contemporary portraits. See Depictions of Muhammad for a more detailed discussion of Muslim artwork depicting Muhammad.
Similar artistic interpretations are used in articles for Homer, Charlemagne, Paul of Tarsus, and many other historical figures. When no accurate images (i.e. painted after life, or photographs) exist, it is a longstanding practice on Wikipedia to incorporate images that are historically significant artwork and/or typical examples of popular depictions. Using images that readers understand to be artistic representations, so long as those images illustrate the topic effectively, is considered to be more instructive than using no image at all. Random recent depictions may be removed as undue in terms of notability, while historical artwork (in this case, of the Late Medieval or Ottoman period) adds significantly to the presentation of how Muhammad was being topicalized throughout history. These depictions are not intended as factual representations of Muhammad's face; rather, they are merely artists' conceptions. Such portrayals generally convey a certain aspect of a particular incident, most commonly the event itself, or maybe the act, akin to the Western genre of history painting. The depictions are, thus, not meant to be accurate in the sense of a modern photograph, and are presented here for what they are: yet another form in which Muhammad was depicted. None of these pictures hold a central position in the article, as evident by their placement, nor are they an attempt to insult the subject. Several factions of Christianity oppose the use of hagiographic imagery (even to the point of fighting over it), but the images are still on Wikipedia, exactly for what they are—i.e. artistic renditions of said people.
Q3: How can I hide the images using my personal Wikipedia settings?
A3: If you do not wish to view Muhammad images, you can hide the depictions in this article from your personal account by following these steps:
Please note that this will not hide the images for other users, or from yourself if you log out of your account. Alternatives: If you do not have an account, and do not wish to register an account, you can disable all images on Wikipedia by going to the mobile version of the website (en.m.wikipedia.org), then going to "settings" and choosing "images off". You may also block a list of specified images, following the format of this example. Experienced JavaScript programmers can hide depictions of Muhammad on the desktop site using Greasemonkey or a similar tool.
Q4: Why does the infobox at the top of the article contain a stylized logo and not a picture of Muhammad?
A4: This has been discussed many times on Talk:Muhammad and many debates can be found in the archives. Because calligraphic depictions of Muhammad are the most common and recognizable worldwide, the current consensus is to include a calligraphic depiction of Muhammad in the infobox and artists' depictions further down in the article. An RFC discussion confirmed this consensus.
Q5: Why is Muhammad's name not followed by (pbuh) or (saw) in the article?
A5: biography style guidelines recommend omitting all honorifics, such as The Prophet, (The) Holy Prophet, (pbuh), or (saw), that precede or follow Muhammad's name. This is because many editors consider such honorifics as promoting an Islamic point of view instead of a neutral point of view which Wikipedia is required to maintain. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) also recommends against the use of titles or honorifics, such as Prophet, unless it is the simplest and most neutral way to deal with disambiguation. When disambiguation is necessary, the recommended form is the Islamic prophet Muhammad.
Wikipedia's
Q6: Why does the article say that Muhammad is the "founder" of Islam?
A6: While the Muslim viewpoint about Muhammad is already presented in the article, a Wikipedia biography article should emphasize historical and scholarly viewpoints. The contention that Islam has always existed is a religious belief, grounded in faith, and Wikipedia cannot promote religious beliefs as facts. Because no religion known as "Islam" exists in any recorded history prior to Muhammad, and Muhammad created the conditions for Islam to spread by unifying Arabia into a single religious polity, he effectively founded the establishment of Islam as the dominant religion in the region. The word "founder" is used in that context, and not intended to imply that Muhammad invented the religion he introduced to Arabia.
Q7: Why does it look like the article is biased toward secular or "Western" references?
A7:
Accusations of bias toward Western references are often made when an objection is raised against the display of pictures of Muhammad or lack of honorifics when mentioning Muhammad. All articles on Wikipedia are required to present a neutral point of view. This neutrality is sometimes mistaken for hostility. Note that exactly the same guidelines apply to articles about Christianity or any other religion. In addition, this article is hosted on the English-language Wikipedia. While references in languages other than English are not automatically inappropriate, English-language references are preferred, because they are of the most use to the typical reader. This therefore predisposes the material used in this article to some degree (see WP:NONENG).
Q8: Why can't I edit this article as a new or anonymous user?
A8: Persistent disruption of the page has forced us to disable editing by anonymous editors and new accounts, while still allowing edits by more experienced users who are familiar with Wikipedia's editorial policies and guidelines. This is likely to remain the case for the foreseeable future.
In any case, the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License grants everybody the right to republish this article elsewhere, and even to modify it themselves, so long as the original authors (Wikipedia contributors) are also credited and the derivative work is distributed under the same license.
Q9: Can censorship be employed on Wikipedia?
A9: No. The official policy is that Wikipedia is not censored.
Q10: Because Muhammad married an underage girl, should the article say he was a pedophile?
A10:
This question has been actively discussed in Talk:Muhammad, and those discussions are archived. According to most traditional sources, Muhammad consummated his marriage to his third wife Aisha when she was nine years old. This was not considered unusual in Muhammad's culture and time period; therefore, there is no reason for the article to refer to Muhammad in the context of pedophilia.[1] Even today, in parts of the world, the legal age of consent is as young as eleven years old, or any age inside of a marriage. In any case, any modern controversy about Aisha's age is not best dealt with in a biography about Muhammad. See the articles on Aisha and Criticism of Muhammad § Aisha for further information.
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Muhammad was one of the Philosophy and religion good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations:
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Main archives: (Index) Image archives: Mediation archives: Images Arbitration: |
This page has archives. Sections older than 60 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
Frequently asked questions, please read before posting
Please read Talk:Muhammad/FAQ for answers to these frequently-asked questions (you need to tap "Read as wiki page" to see the relevant text):
- Shouldn't all the images of Muhammad be removed because they might offend Muslims?
- Aren't the images of Muhammad false?
- How can I hide the images using my personal Wikipedia settings?
- Why does the infobox at the top of the article contain a stylized logo and not a picture of Muhammad?
- Why is Muhammad's name not followed by (pbuh) or (saw) in the article?
- Why does the article say that Muhammad is the "founder" of Islam?
- Why does it look like the article is biased towards secular or "Western" references?
- Why can't I edit this article as a new or anonymous user?
- Can censorship be employed on Wikipedia?
- Because Muhammad married an underage girl, should the article say he was a pedophile?
This section is for mobile-device users who do not see the normal talk page header. This section should not have any comments, so that it stays on this talk page and does not get archived.
GA Reassessment
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • • Most recent review
- Result: While instability is not in itself a reason to delist, poor quality sourcing is; the discussions on the talk page constitute, in my view, consensus that the sourcing has been degraded. Delisted. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:49, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
It has recently been brought to light that this page and its sourcing have been altered fairly wholesale since the page was last reviewed and kept as GA, and that there is little reason to believe the level of former quality has been maintained; on the contrary, recent informal assessments by editors have uncovered significant issues in terms of prior content and source removal, as well as in terms of the quality of new sourcing and the resulting balance of the page and its contents. The sum conclusion of the current state of affairs has already been assessed by several editors as no longer meeting GA standard. For details, see the existing talk page discussion at Talk:Muhammad#Removal of "good article" status, as well as the broader discussion entitled Talk:Muhammad#Recent neutrality concerns, and other subsequent talk page discussions. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:43, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
- Fails Wikipedia:Good article criteria It is not stable due to edit warring on the page....: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. Moxy- 04:08, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
- Even excluding the wholesale rewriting the article has undergone recently, 2012 is a long time ago, and the article quality standards back then were arguably lower. I do not see a reason to maintain GA status given the current edit warring. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:51, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
genocide perpetrator
I think that we should add this category because he committed Invasion of Banu Qurayza. Sharouser (talk) 13:39, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- Well he is included on the category list. Ip says: Work Better yes. (talk) 14:36, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- Removed that cat per WP:CATVER. Which WP:RS says this was a genocide, and what content do you suggest adding to the Muhammad article based on them? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:20, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not saying it's an unreasonable notion, but taking "Consequently, 600–900 men of Banu Qurayza were executed. The women and children were distributed as slaves, with some being transported to Najd to be sold." from "war" to "genocide" needs decent sources doing the lifting. That's my view. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:24, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- Well then we may have to add Moses and many others from ancient times. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- There were three Jewish tribes that were in a treaty with the Muhammad, and these tribes all violated the treaty, with hostile attitude, communications with the enemy, and an intent and attempt to fight the Muslims and assassinate Muhammad. The two tribes Banu Qainuqa and Banu Nadir were merely exiled due to their insistance in hostility and danger to security, but one of them, Banu Qurayza, were a degree higher in treachery, and were incited by Quraysh to oppose the Muhammad and the Muslims, so there was no choice but to fight against it from a security standpoint. Now, in terms of the number that is spread of how many were killed, this is debated, by analysing whether such a number was possible and what the origin of the claimed number is, as well as asking: "who was killed?"; because killing civilians is prohibited in Islam, so this would indicate whatever number was killed were combatants, but we cannot even accurately confirm how many were killed in the first place. Academically, you cannot just mention one thing and conveniently not mention the reason for it, and none can rely on a historian's estimation when he did not witness it as a reliable number of the death toll. In any case, what is expected it a treaty is broken in such a way? Your edit suggestion to me seems ingenuine and has sprouted as a result of modern day events. MahmoudBinOmar (talk) 07:41, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
- It might not be a bad idea to mention it somewhere in the article, but I'm not sure I'd use genocide unless this was actually the entirety of their population DuneEnjoyer333 (talk) 13:49, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- Why? The term genocide does not refer to the entirety of a population: "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group"Dimadick (talk) 15:12, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure. I guess if there's a evidence they specifically went after only that ethnic group that's different but if they just did that to anyone in the city that's not the same thing. DuneEnjoyer333 (talk) 15:23, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- Why? The term genocide does not refer to the entirety of a population: "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group"Dimadick (talk) 15:12, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
The Satanic Verses & Banu Qurayza
A very long discussion
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Throughout Muslim and Non-Muslim sources, there is not a single "Sahih" (Authentic) report of the Satanic verses incident. Every one of these is either "Sahih Mursal" (Sahih in chain but disconnected) or lower such as "Da'if" (Weak). QcTheCat (talk) 03:52, 20 May 2024 (UTC) This article states that the most "authentic reports" tell us that there is no evidence of the Banu Qurayza's break of the treaty. But there very clearly is. Banu Qurayza also did not deny the accusation, this is completely false. As we see in Taarekh At Tabari: Banu Qurayza Leaders to attackers: "There is no treaty between us and Mohammed and no covenant." (The History of Tabari: Events of the Year 5) There are many more but I'll include one to start the conversation QcTheCat (talk) 04:17, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
References from all posts in the section from all editors
Just have to say that current writing "On the exact day the Quraysh forces and their allies withdrew, Muhammad, while bathing at his wife's abode, received a visit from the angel Gabriel, who instructed him to attack the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza." doesn't work in WP-voice. At all. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:43, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
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Banu Qurayza + following section
A very long discussion
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The sources need better balancing in both these sections. There's an overemphasis on Russ Rodgers, who is a marginal scholar at best, and just a single voice. The second section is almost entirely sourced to Rodgers. That's disastrously undue. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:09, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
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Conflict with the Jewish tribes
"Following the Battle of Badr, Muhammad revealed his intention to expel the Jews from the land."
Does anyone know which source says this? And can they quote it? Aside from the tone issues, I don't trust this as correct paraphrasing one bit. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:16, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
- Rodgers, Russ (2012). The Generalship of Muhammad: Battles and Campaigns of the Prophet of Allah. University Press of Florida. pp. 109–110. ISBN 978-0-8130-3766-0.
So what was Muhammad’s motivation? The seeds for this can be found in his earlier declaration after the battle of Badr that he intended to exile the Jews from the land.
Narrated Abu Huraira:
While we were in the mosque, Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) came out to us and said, "Let us proceed to the Jews." So we went along with him till we reached Bait-al-Midras (a place where the Torah used to be recited and all the Jews of the town used to gather). The Prophet (ﷺ) stood up and addressed them, "O Assembly of Jews! Embrace Islam and you will be safe!" The Jews replied, "O Aba-l-Qasim! You have conveyed Allah's message to us." The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "That is what I want (from you)." He repeated his first statement for the second time, and they said, "You have conveyed Allah's message, O Aba-l- Qasim." Then he said it for the third time and added, "You should Know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to exile you from this land, so whoever among you owns some property, can sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."
— Kaalakaa (talk) 22:21, 28 May 2024 (UTC)It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say:
I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.
Banu Qaynuqa segment
Pinging editors who recently edited this article: @Omnipaedista, @Anachronist, @Freeman501, @Sumanuil, @Nardog, @Sharouser, @Johnbod, @VenusFeuerFalle, @Scientelensia, @BilledMammal, @Dronebogus
So, Iskandar323 recently made a number of edits to this article, but some of them just seem to me to constitute WP:CENSORSHIP. One example is his deletion of this cited material:
At first, Muhammad planned to annihilate the surrendered tribe,
with an edit summary “Copyediting" [24].
The material itself is supported by the reliable sources cited (I can add more if needed)
- Rodinson, Maxime (2021-03-02). Muhammad. New York Review of Books. p. 173. ISBN 978-1-68137-493-2.
Muhammad wanted to put all of them to death
- Brockopp, Jonathan E. (2010-04-19). The Cambridge Companion to Muhammad. Cambridge University Press. p. 72. ISBN 978-1-139-82838-3.
Following their capitulation, their men were almost beheaded, but Abdallah ibn Ubayy forced Muhammad to spare them and let the tribe go into exile.
- Glubb, John; Glubb, Sir John Bagot (2001). The Life and Times of Muhammad. Cooper Square Press. p. 198. ISBN 978-0-8154-1176-5.
The phrase attributed to Abdulla by Ibn Ishaq, "Would you cut them down in one morning?" implies that the Jews were about to be put to death.
- Rodgers, Russ (2012). The Generalship of Muhammad: Battles and Campaigns of the Prophet of Allah. University Press of Florida. pp. 109–110. ISBN 978-0-8130-3766-0.
It is clear from this exchange that Muhammad planned to implement the extreme consequences of the victor in those days by executing the warriors and selling the women and children into slavery.
So, what do you all think, does the removal constitute WP:CENSORSHIP? — Kaalakaa (talk) 22:18, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
- None of those online links show me the relevant pages, so I cannot verify anything. ~Anachronist (talk) 02:08, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- From the outset, words like "annihilate" are simply not NPOV or encyclopedic in tone. And, as you have evidenced, none of these sources use these terms. When one, as an editor, encounters such terms, it is immediately clear that it has been produced by someone with a weak grasp of NPOV and encyclopedic tone, and so yes, I edited it out – not having immediate access to the sources to enable a more precise re-scripting. If your want to add back in after "Following their surrender" that "Muhammad had intended to execute the men" then that would actually be supported by the Cambridge Companion and be encyclopedic in tone. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:07, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: The page is currently populated with a large volume of sources with no quotes, no direct links to sources with page numbers, and often no links at all. While none of this is technically necessary, the page currently presents a considerable verification burden due to the sheer lack of judicious quotation alongside the references. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:39, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- According to this publication by Cambridge University Press,[3] regarding what happened to the Qurayza, "
He ordered the Jewish men killed and the women and children sold as slaves or given as booty—in other words, he ordered the annihilation of the tribe.
" This is something that, according to the sources above, would also have happened to the Banu Qaynuqa if Abdullah ibn Ubayy had not intervened. Thus, using the word "annihilate" to describe this action (and as an effort to avoid copyvio) is not unacademic. If you believe the word is not NPOV, you can discuss it on the talk page instead of deleting it outright, although I couldn't seem to find the word in MOS:WTW. Additionally, you also changed [29]: Muhammad thus spared their lives, stipulating that they must depart Medina within three days and relinquish their property to the Muslims, with Muhammad retaining a fifth.
- to:
Muhammad spared the Qaynuqa, stipulating that they must depart Medina within three days and relinquish their property to the Muslims, with a fifth being retained as khums or Islamic tax.
- The latter part of your version, "
a fifth being retained as khums or Islamic tax,
" is not supported by any cited sources, thus constitutes WP:OR and WP:CENSORSHIP. To prevent this from happening again, if you do not have access to the sources, please refrain from making significant changes to the article, especially those that alter its meaning. — Kaalakaa (talk) 07:28, 30 May 2024 (UTC)- I've added a slightly badly formatted reference for this that will have to do for now based on my access. Is it genuinely true that none of Brockopp, Glubb, Rodinson or Rodgers elucidate this detail or provide the relevant terminology? That would be especially remarkable for Brockopp. Glubb and Rodgers are not experts, but Brockopp is, and Rodinson is an eminent scholar, even if coming at the subject from a very specific sociological perspective. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:47, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
Is it genuinely true that none of Brockopp, Glubb, Rodinson or Rodgers elucidate this detail or provide the relevant terminology?
- You're the one who changed it, so the WP:BURDEN is on you, not anyone else. And please stop making false claims that Rodgers is not an expert; I have explained this multiple times in the section above [30], [31], [32]. — Kaalakaa (talk) 08:31, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
- I've added a slightly badly formatted reference for this that will have to do for now based on my access. Is it genuinely true that none of Brockopp, Glubb, Rodinson or Rodgers elucidate this detail or provide the relevant terminology? That would be especially remarkable for Brockopp. Glubb and Rodgers are not experts, but Brockopp is, and Rodinson is an eminent scholar, even if coming at the subject from a very specific sociological perspective. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:47, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Regarding your comment:
The page is currently populated with a large volume of sources with no quotes
- I checked several featured articles on historical topics [33], [34], [35], [36], [37], and many, if not all, of their citations do not contain quotations. Sometimes, when writing articles, we also condense the content of one or several pages, so providing quotations in the citations for each point can make the article's bytes too large and overloaded.
no direct links to sources with page numbers, and often no links at all.
- This article uses the sfn reference format, which only displays the authors' names, years, and page numbers. When the authors and year are clicked, it will show book details such as the title, publisher, etc. This is a common reference format used in historical articles where the same books are cited repeatedly with different pages. While Google Books provides previews for some pages, most other pages are not accessible. And WP:V states: "
Do not reject reliable sources just because they are difficult or costly to access. Some reliable sources are not easily accessible.
" — Kaalakaa (talk) 09:23, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- According to this publication by Cambridge University Press,[3] regarding what happened to the Qurayza, "
- Comment: While the inclusion of the content is under discussion, keep in mind that if a content is found to be undue or unencyclopedic, even if well-sourced, it can be removed. (See WP:NOTFREESPEECH and WP:ONUS). More importantly, impulsively accusing other editors of censorship is unconstructive and is not really going to resolve the issue.(See WP:YC). StarkReport (talk) 23:18, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
References
- ^ a b Ali, Kecia (2014-10-07). The Lives of Muhammad. Harvard University Press. p. 270. ISBN 978-0-674-05060-0.
- ^ Lewis, Bernard (2002-03-14). Arabs in History. OUP Oxford. p. 39. ISBN 978-0-19-164716-1.
- ^ Sharkey, Heather J. (2017-04-03). A History of Muslims, Christians, and Jews in the Middle East. Cambridge University Press. p. 33. ISBN 978-0-521-76937-2.
Maxime Rodinson is not a valid source
Let me clearly note that Maxime Rodinson, a Marxist, is not a valid source here nor on any page of major religious figures. He should not be cited nor referenced. This is not a place for ideologies, be it Marxism or otherwise--it is a place for accurate and unbiased factual reporting of information, adhering to neutrality (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view), and from reliable sources (see Wikipedia:Reliable sources). Rodinson is not a reliable source. Wikipedia does not promote a certain ideology nor narrative, be it Marxist or otherwise. If you want to add Marxist comments, create a new page for "Marxist Views of Islam" and move it over there, please. DivineReality (talk) 08:47, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- Let me clearly reply that before you make such dogmatic pronouncements you should read the policies you cite. From WP:RS: "Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective." The way we handle this is in our WP:NPOV policy, specifically WP:DUE: "Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources." So, no, Wikipedia is not just "a place for accurate and unbiased factual reporting of information". DeCausa (talk) 09:58, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- Although, I don't agree with dismissing Rodinson, but the current content seems to be written in a skewed and incomplete manner and comes off as WP:GRATUITOUS. It would benefit from expansion and additional context without taking up significantly more space. Therefore, I am considering proceeding with these improvements for better WP:PROPORTION.
- Additionally, there's no need to include the word 'sex' unnecessarily. 'Took her to bed' effectively conveys the intended meaning, and readers can easily understand. StarkReport (talk) 18:03, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- Per MOS:EUPHEMISM, "had sex" is more preferable on en-WP if we're going to mention it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:46, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- Perhaps, "had intercourse with her that night". It seems more formal and encyclopedic and avoids euphemisms, if any. StarkReport (talk) 19:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- No, sounds Victorian. "had sex" is the appropriate and encyclopedic language. DeCausa (talk) 21:42, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- If we're talking about marriage here, the usual verb is consummated. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:55, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
- No, sounds Victorian. "had sex" is the appropriate and encyclopedic language. DeCausa (talk) 21:42, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- Perhaps, "had intercourse with her that night". It seems more formal and encyclopedic and avoids euphemisms, if any. StarkReport (talk) 19:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- Per MOS:EUPHEMISM, "had sex" is more preferable on en-WP if we're going to mention it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:46, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- Consider views on Rodinson's work like [38][39]. Historians (and others) can have all sorts of backgrounds. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:18, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- He's listed up there among the big Muhammad biographers by the author of the Encyclopedia is Islam, so I would say he passes muster as an influential voice. The key thing to remember with Rodinson is that he was a Marxist sociologist, so he always came at the topic from a highly specific (and quite off-piste) perspective that can in places be rather exceptional and warrant attribution. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:49, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- This man clearly is anti-Islam, should he be the primary source throughout this biography? Are we here to just pump this wall with evil distortions of the biography? It's not even accurate. It's a "refutation." And the main biography of a person is not the place for refutation. You can put it aside in his own page. He's not a valid source, I affirm this, you just like what he wrote because it sounds hyper-critical and that's your intention, rather than factual reporting. DivineReality (talk) 02:36, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
- If you intend to edit WP based on "I affirm this", you'll probably have some pushback. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:59, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
- Agree with others that DivineReality's criticism of Maxime Rodinson are not substantial. Reliable sources seem to consider his work in high regard. Also, it is not up to Wikipedia editors to determine what is authentic and inauthentic hadith (the description of particular hadiths and their chain of transmission as legitimate or not is a form of religious tradition) and that is up to what reliable sources have to say on the issue. That said if a claim is made based on a single controversial hadith, then it should probably be attributed. Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:06, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
- Rodinson is a highly polemical source whose works have orientalism themes and academia has now moved on from such views. What exactly is the proposed text we want to include? If we are to include him, we should also include counter-perspectives from Muslims.VR (Please ping on reply) 04:36, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Rodinson is most certainly not a reliable source for this text: "
Overwhelmed by her beauty, Muhammad took her to bed that night, contradicting his own mandate that his followers should wait for the captives' next menstrual cycle to begin before having intercourse.
" As far as I can tell, Rodinson has little training in Islamic law, so how can he decree that Muhammad violated Islamic law? For example, Dar al-Ifta al-Misriyyah, which is indeed an expert in Islamic law, contradicts this view.VR (Please ping on reply) 04:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC)- Our WP:SOURCE policy states, "
Base articles on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.
" That "independent" word is linked to WP:IS, which says: "An independent source is a source that has no vested interest in a given Wikipedia topic and therefore is commonly expected to cover the topic from a disinterested perspective.
" I do not think that Dar al-Ifta al-Misriyyah meets this description. Additionally, you might want to read these explanations from @Apaugasma [40] [41] and @SMcCandlish [42]. Regarding Rodinson's statement, this publication[1] from Edinburgh University Press, written by a Professor of Islamic and Middle Eastern History, seems to align with Rodinson, that Muhammad's act of consummating his marriage with Safiyya shortly after she became a widow (following the killing of her husband on Muhammad's orders) contradicts Islamic law itself.
— Kaalakaa (talk) 05:35, 10 June 2024 (UTC)p. 27
Following the same pattern, in 628 Muhammad invaded a Jewish tribe in Khaybar, north of Medina. After defeating them, he surveyed the women captives. A Jewish woman, named Safiyya, charmed the Prophet with her beauty. He threw his gown at her, as a mark that she had become his captive. Safiyya had witnessed her husband being killed by Muhammad; despite that, the Prophet sent her immediately to be beautified for him, and the marriage was consummated in or near Khaybar a few days later. Muhammad was not concerned with Safiyya’s feelings or her grief over the deaths of her husband and father. In this instance, the Prophet was acting against the clear commands of the Qur’an, in that when a woman is divorced or becomes a widow, she cannot remarry unless four months and ten days have passed (in order to ensure there is no pregnancy from the previous relationship) (Q. 2:234).- @Kaalakaa, Well, if you overlook WP:IGNORE and insist on taking your interpretation of WP:IS in the most literal sense, then, according to the complaint launched above, Rodinson does not satisfy the
"cover the topic from a disinterested perspective"
. Since, he is actually a very interested party. StarkReport (talk) 05:54, 10 June 2024 (UTC) - Regarding the marriage to Safiyya, I recommend reading this article. DivineReality (talk) 01:38, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Kaalakaa, Well, if you overlook WP:IGNORE and insist on taking your interpretation of WP:IS in the most literal sense, then, according to the complaint launched above, Rodinson does not satisfy the
- Looking at that bit in the current article, IMO it sounds like strange writing in an article (part) about history. "Overwhelmed by her beauty" is IMO a strange historical "fact" in WP-voice. Is it even WP:PROPORTIONate to include in this article? I'm quite ignorant on the scholarship here, I'm commenting as a reader on a WP-text supposed to be about history. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:51, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- This publication from Edinburgh University Press,[1] written by Taef Kamal El-Azhari, Professor of Islamic and Middle Eastern History, also states something similar to what Rodinson said.
Following the same pattern, in 628 Muhammad invaded a Jewish tribe in Khaybar, north of Medina. After defeating them, he surveyed the women captives. A Jewish woman, named Safiyya, charmed the Prophet with her beauty. He threw his gown at her, as a mark that she had become his captive. Safiyya had witnessed her husband being killed by Muhammad; despite that, the Prophet sent her immediately to be beautified for him, and the marriage was consummated in or near Khaybar a few days later. Muhammad was not concerned with Safiyya’s feelings or her grief over the deaths of her husband and father. In this instance, the Prophet was acting against the clear commands of the Qur’an, in that when a woman is divorced or becomes a widow, she cannot remarry unless four months and ten days have passed (in order to ensure there is no pregnancy from the previous relationship) (Q. 2:234).
- I think the inclusion is important, since some modern Muslims believe and propagate that Muhammad's marriages were not related to his attraction to the women but were for political or charitable reasons. Also, as per WP:NOTCENSORED. — Kaalakaa (talk) 08:54, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Current writing:
- "Kinana's wife, Safiyya bint Huyayy, was among the captives. Her father and brother had been executed during the massacre of the Banu Qurayza. Overwhelmed by her beauty, Muhammad had sex with her that night, contradicting his own mandate that his followers should wait for the captives' next menstrual cycle to begin before having intercourse. Muhammad advised Safiyya to convert to Islam; she accepted and agreed to become Muhammad's wife and was thus considered the "Mother of the Believers.""
- How about
- "Muhammad took Kinana's wife, Safiyya bint Huyayy, as his own slave and later as his wife."
- Details can go in her article, Wives of Muhammad, perhaps some has a place at Criticism_of_Muhammad#Death_of_Kenana_ibn_al-Rabi. IMO, this level of detail doesn't fit here. As always, my opinion is worth its weight in diamonds. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:09, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Gråbergs Gråa Sång, Although, I agree with you that the mention of her "beauty" may not be necessary, but regarding your proposed wording above, it unintentionally suggests that Muhammad coerced Safiyya into marriage whereas, this is contested by some sources that mentioned that Muhammad offered her the choice of freedom, and other sources indicate that she voluntarily converted to Islam. I think it does not uphold WP:YESPOV.
- Perhaps: "Muhammad took Kinana's wife, Safiyya bint Huyayy, as his own slave and later advised her to convert to Islam. She accepted and agreed to become Muhammad's wife, and was thus considered the "Mother of the Believers." " StarkReport (talk) 11:50, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Well, it's also shorter than the current, so IMO it's improvement. I still think the rest can be told elsewhere. IMO became wife = mother of believers doesn't quite make sense, does it mean "like all his other wives"? If so, it doesn't seem to be worth mentioning (here). If that is not the case, there seems to be details missing, and I don't think those details should be added here.
- I don't think my wording suggests coercion, though a reader may consider the possibility, considering her situation (I am reminded of Bathsheba). There are of course several motivations for her becoming M:s wife one can imagine, I'm leaning at "didn't have much choice/clearly the best choice available" myself. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'd agree with StarkReport's proposal.VR (Please ping on reply) 22:00, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- As is normal practice, a single source making extraordinary claims not repeated in other sources would best be dismissed. If kept, it should be used with attribution, but given that there are dozens of biographies of the subject here, and given that the space is limited, it's unclear why we would want to keep attributed extraordinary statements from Rodinson around if they can't be supported in Wikivoice. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:58, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Our WP:SOURCE policy states, "
- Rodinson is most certainly not a reliable source for this text: "
- I'm going to concur that the claim in the heading isn't sustained, especially since the sticking point here really seems to be the claim that the bedding of Safiyya by Muhammad so soon after he made her a widow was against at least the letter of Islamic law, which is supportable from multiple scholars. Al-Ifta's counter viewpoint could also be included, and while they are clearly Muslim apologists attempting to defend Muhammad by any means necessary, they don't appear to be wrong that the haddith materials suggest that Muhammad waited for her menstrual cycle to complete. Al-Ifta's argument amounts to this: the reason for the prescribed long waiting period is to ensure that the woman is not pregnant by her now-deceased earlier husband, and if she has a menstrual cycle in the interim she can't be pregnant, ergo the underlying purpose of the long waiting period was served by Muhammad's much shorter one. This is clearly a rationalization, and of a sort that hardline Muslims absolutely do not accept when someone else wants to evade an Islamic-law restriction of any kind; they stick hard to the letter of it. (Just as many Christians do with regard to Judeo-Christian biblical bits, and so on. Hardliner, literalist interpretation and behavior exist in pretty much every religion, or at least every one with a scriptural doctrine as its basis.) But that doesn't make al-Ifta's position nutty, just non-orthodox.
Regardless, Rodinson being a Marxist is ultimately completely irrelevant, since where one is on the politico-economic spectrum isn't a religious matter or vice versa. To the extent that a lot of Marxists are/were somewhere between irreligious and atheist is also immaterial, since it doesn't equate to a bone to pick with Islam or Muhammad in particular. Lots of biblical archaeologists and other reliable scholars of Abrahamic history are also in the same camp, and this doesn't magically make their work invalid; indeed, it is more likely to be trustworthy because it will not be pitting Judaic versus Christian versus Muslim traditions against each other out of a fervent belief in which one is True, and it won't be putting belief ahead of what can be verified or reasonably deduced from actual evidence. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:23, 10 June 2024 (UTC); rev'd. 17:18, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- But it is relevant that in this specific topic area Maxime Rodinson is not a specialist, but a generalist. He wrote many books about Marxism, but only one book about Muhammad or early Islam. His interest was one-off and cursory (in 1960). Iskandar323 (talk) 14:16, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- People liked it, though. This article is supposed to be "generalist", isn't it? Oh well. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:47, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- @SMcCandlish: see WP:BIASEDSOURCES. Just because a source is unabashedly pro-Islam (or pro-Muhammad), does not make it unreliable. I get the feeling we agree on that, but I want to absolutely hammer this point. Some on wikipedia subscribe to an absurd notion that practicing Muslims should never be considered reliable sources on Islam. I agree that Rodinson's Marxism is irrelevant (because once again, his biases are acceptable as per WP:BIASEDSOURCES), but his lack of training in Islamic law is quite relevant.VR (Please ping on reply) 21:56, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed. Rodinson was biased. Not a sincere academic. DivineReality (talk) 23:02, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- And what makes him not a sincere academic is you asserting that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:55, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- I recommend that @Kaalakaa to take heed of @Vice regent suggestions above and avoid engaging in WP:Wikilawyering and misrepresenting of WP:IS policy in every Islamic article as @Kaalakaa frequently dismisses sources that are even remotely connected to Muslim perspectives as apologetic, which also violates encyclopedic WP:Balance.
- It also comes of as WP:POINTY. StarkReport (talk) 04:42, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Please review the content of WP:BIASEDSOURCE itself:
"Editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as ... the level of independence from the topic the source is covering."
- A biased source here is like a religious source discussing the Earth, or a political source discussing the economy. It is not a source from a writer who adheres to Aum Shinrikyo discussing Aum Shinrikyo; this falls instead into the category of non-independent sources due to their conflict of interest with the religion, which prevents them from discussing it objectively. Also, these explanations from @Apaugasma [43][44]:
Historical subjects generally require (secular) academic scholarly sources.
— Kaalakaa (talk) 08:03, 11 June 2024 (UTC)In general, authors ... who explicitly self-identify as Muslim scholars and who write from an explicitly Islamic religious perspective should all be treated as primary sources on this topic, i.e. their views should only be given if and as discussed by secular secondary sources.
- @Kaalakaa, Kindly, refrain from constantly twisting a general well-intentioned advise by an individual editor for WP:TENDENTIOUS purposes. Again, refer to WP:POINTY. StarkReport (talk) 09:03, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Where did I twist the words of another editor? I quoted @Apaugasma verbatim, one of the statements being directed at you. Please keep in mind that false or unfounded allegations like this constitute personal attacks (see: WP:NPA). — Kaalakaa (talk) 09:13, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Please stop citing Apaugasma as if they're a guideline, and please try and treat sources in a way that doesn't resemble highly selective cherrypicking. For instance, preferring Rodinson, an extreme generalist over all specialists from the same period, such as Watt. Preferring obscure military historians like Rodgers while discounting celebrated biographers like Armstrong. Disregarding Brown, an academically published professor, because he's Muslim. Incidentally, the actual source in terms of reliability in the latter case is the secular academic publisher. Generally, all of these conversations would move at lot faster if we could dispense with the gerrymandering of sources, and strive for fairness from the get-go. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:46, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Is it about fairness or is about a religious narrative? It's certainly not about choosing sides. It's about the use and presenting of relevant sources, regardless of agreement in those sources. Ip says: Work Better yes. (talk) 22:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Fairness as in the sense of NPOV, balance, due weight, and not simply sitting on one end of the seesaw because the narratives at one end are preferred. This means drawing upon the breadth of all scholars on the subject: fans, apologists and critics alike, without pushing marginal opinions from any end of the spectrum. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:10, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- I cited @Apaugasma because his explanation about independent sources is sensible and, as I have presented above, aligns with the content of WP:IIS; otherwise, I wouldn't have cited him. Regarding sources, you view Russ Rodgers,[2] a command historian of the US Army, an adjunct professor of history, and whose book is published by the University Press of Florida, as merely a former military personnel [45] turned hobbyist historian [46] (a claim repeatedly proven utterly baseless and absurd [47] [48] [49]). But you consider Karen Armstrong, who only has a degree in English, as a top historian just because she has OBE FRSL. J.K. Rowling, the author of Harry Potter, also holds such titles, plus a CH; does that mean she is now also a top historian? Truly an absurd double standard. Not to mention Karen Armstrong's misrepresentation of her source, as pointed out by Kecia Ali [50] [51]. As for Watt, one of the reasons I rarely use him is because I found he also misrepresented primary sources several times. In his book, Muhammad Prophet and Statesman, on page 131, he mentions that Muhammad initially planned to expel the Banu Qaynuqa, but Abdullah bin Ubayy tried to prevent it, while primary [52] and reliable secondary sources [53] say Muhammad initially planned to massacre the Banu Qaynuqa but Abdullah Ibn Ubayy prevented Muhammad, so they were only expelled. If you find early Islamic sources that agree with Watt on this matter, feel free to present them here. — Kaalakaa (talk) 13:20, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Since you still appear to be struggling with matters of weight here, let's proceed to WP:USEBYOTHERS. If you search for these various works on Google scholar, you will find Karen Armstrong's biography cited more than 600 times, Watt's seminal work, close to 1,000 times. Rodgers'? 14 in a decade. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:46, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- You still haven't answered my question: is it true or not that Karen Armstrong only has a degree in English? — Kaalakaa (talk) 14:02, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- It's not relevant, because a lifetime of experience and recognition is worth far more than any degree, but no it's not correct. She has no less than four honorary doctorates, including two in letters and two in divinity. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:05, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
She has no less than four honorary doctorates, including two in letters and two in divinity.
- "
Divinity is the study of Christian theology and ministry at a school, divinity school, university, or seminary.
" So it has nothing to do with the study of history, and, "Honorary doctorates are purely titular degrees in that they confer no rights on the recipient and carry with them no formal academic qualification.
" It's not relevant, because a lifetime of experience and recognition is worth far more than any degree
- It's ironic that you claimed Russ Rodgers, a command historian of the US Army and an adjunct professor of history, whose book was published by the University Press of Florida, as "
having little to no academic background
" [54](which you couldn't prove when I asked). But now, you consider Karen Armstrong, who only majored in English, as a top historian? J.K. Rowling also has an OBE, FRSL, plus a CH, which Karen doesn't have, and her work, Harry Potter, has been cited over 1,800 times. So that means the statements in her book can be used as references for Wikipedia articles on history, geography, science, medicine, etc.? No, her work is just a novel, and that's how we should treat Karen Armstrong's work as well. Also, please note that WP:USEBYOTHERS states, "If outside citation is the main indicator of reliability, particular care should be taken to adhere to other guidelines and policies."
And our other policy, WP:OR, states, "Books published by university presses
" are among "the most reliable sources.
" So, it's clear that using the number of times a work is cited as an indicator of reliability is applicable when the reliability of the subject-matter expert source is still uncertain, such as when it is not published by a university press, etc. Karen Armstrong, however, is clearly not a subject-matter expert. — Kaalakaa (talk) 16:11, 12 June 2024 (UTC)- Your lack of awareness about academic standards, hierarchy and prestige could fill volumes, as you have repeatedly demonstrated, and isn't really worth my addressing, but on one small point: if you think biographies of Muhammad are not a religious topic, you're probably not competent to edit here. The only primary sources here are religious oral traditions. Everything that is considered "history" here is based on primary religious oral tradition, so interpreters of religious traditions, alongside historian, are of course relevant subject-matter experts. An understanding of the religious traditions underpinning these oral sources is of course crucial. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
... said the person who previously claimed that a military historian is a retired military personnel [55] who became a hobbyist historian [56] and that adjunct professors are not reliable because they are non-tenure [57], a statement as ridiculous as saying that a NASA lead scientist is not reliable because they are an adjunct professor at a certain university.Your lack of awareness about academic standards, hierarchy and prestige could fill volumes
so interpreters of religious traditions ... are of course relevant subject-matter experts.
- What does the study of Christian theology and ministry have to do with interpreting Islamic traditions? Remember, you previously had a problem with a source from Zondervan? But when a source of a similar nature benefits your POV, you conveniently contradict yourself.
An understanding of the religious traditions
- Yes, and Kecia Ali has shown that Karen Armstrong misrepresents her source, Tabari [58][59]. — Kaalakaa (talk) 01:48, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Yes yes, very good. More disjointed Wikilawyering. We're all fascinated, enthralled and so much closer to coming around to embracing your sources with cherrypicked fringe material. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:53, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- I think Kaalakaa has been established to be in the minority in pretty much every discussion of this issue. The problem is that we can argue all day about whether Rodinson and Rogers should be replaced with better sources (fhe consensus suggests that they should be), but unless someone has access to a better source that they can use to replace them, and is actually willing to put in the effort to rewrite the article, then these sources are going to stay in the article. Iskandar, do you have a list of sources/books in mind that you think would be a better basis for writing this biography? Hemiauchenia (talk) 05:04, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- This article is about the Islamic prophet, so it is only natural that the talk page is crowded with Muslims. However, I am not sure, but it seems that DeCausa, Graberg Graa Sang, and SMcCandlish rejected DivineReliaty's argument that Rodinson is not reliable. None of them in this section seem to argue against Rodgers. Nevertheless, if we want to determine a consensus, an RfC seems to be one way to achieve that. — Kaalakaa (talk) 05:30, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Kaalakaa: You say
The talk page is crowded with Muslims
. What evidence do you have to support such a claim? And which specific editors are you referring to? If you have evidence and you believe it's hindering the ability for those users to neutrally edit and discuss this article, then WP:COIN is the appropriate venue to adjudicate such matters. Left guide (talk) 05:45, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Kaalakaa: You say
- @Hemiauchenia: Well yes, actually. One good thing to come out of the otherwise rather circular discussions on sourcing on this talk page was this review, which lists all of the Western biographers associated with "more or less objective reconstructions of Muhammad's life story", as opposed to either Islamic hagiography or Western polemic. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:54, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- This article is about the Islamic prophet, so it is only natural that the talk page is crowded with Muslims. However, I am not sure, but it seems that DeCausa, Graberg Graa Sang, and SMcCandlish rejected DivineReliaty's argument that Rodinson is not reliable. None of them in this section seem to argue against Rodgers. Nevertheless, if we want to determine a consensus, an RfC seems to be one way to achieve that. — Kaalakaa (talk) 05:30, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- I think Kaalakaa has been established to be in the minority in pretty much every discussion of this issue. The problem is that we can argue all day about whether Rodinson and Rogers should be replaced with better sources (fhe consensus suggests that they should be), but unless someone has access to a better source that they can use to replace them, and is actually willing to put in the effort to rewrite the article, then these sources are going to stay in the article. Iskandar, do you have a list of sources/books in mind that you think would be a better basis for writing this biography? Hemiauchenia (talk) 05:04, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Yes yes, very good. More disjointed Wikilawyering. We're all fascinated, enthralled and so much closer to coming around to embracing your sources with cherrypicked fringe material. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:53, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Again, an another disruptive wikilawyering by @Kaalakaa, that blatantly disregards the spirit of the rules. If this behavior persists, the user is likely to be taken to the ANI.
- Also interesting, or might I say suspicious, is that an account created in 2023 knew about a specific argument from 2007[60]. Whether this, what I think, explains the single-purpose nature of the account, I leave it to others to decide. Nonetheless, if this conduct is reported to ANI, I think it warrants a indef block on Islam-related articles. Regards. StarkReport (talk) 02:59, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
- Your lack of awareness about academic standards, hierarchy and prestige could fill volumes, as you have repeatedly demonstrated, and isn't really worth my addressing, but on one small point: if you think biographies of Muhammad are not a religious topic, you're probably not competent to edit here. The only primary sources here are religious oral traditions. Everything that is considered "history" here is based on primary religious oral tradition, so interpreters of religious traditions, alongside historian, are of course relevant subject-matter experts. An understanding of the religious traditions underpinning these oral sources is of course crucial. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- It's not relevant, because a lifetime of experience and recognition is worth far more than any degree, but no it's not correct. She has no less than four honorary doctorates, including two in letters and two in divinity. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:05, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- You still haven't answered my question: is it true or not that Karen Armstrong only has a degree in English? — Kaalakaa (talk) 14:02, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Since you still appear to be struggling with matters of weight here, let's proceed to WP:USEBYOTHERS. If you search for these various works on Google scholar, you will find Karen Armstrong's biography cited more than 600 times, Watt's seminal work, close to 1,000 times. Rodgers'? 14 in a decade. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:46, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Is it about fairness or is about a religious narrative? It's certainly not about choosing sides. It's about the use and presenting of relevant sources, regardless of agreement in those sources. Ip says: Work Better yes. (talk) 22:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Kaalakaa, Kindly, refrain from constantly twisting a general well-intentioned advise by an individual editor for WP:TENDENTIOUS purposes. Again, refer to WP:POINTY. StarkReport (talk) 09:03, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed. Rodinson was biased. Not a sincere academic. DivineReality (talk) 23:02, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- It doesn't require "training in Islamic law" to do competent research and produce a usable conclusion. Otherwise we would have to ban all news sources as unreliable (journalists are not academically trained in the 1,000s of subjects they report on). That would also apply even to the finest works of investigative journalists, e.g. 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus. And any work that crossed multiple disciplines (e.g. Guns, Germs and Steel) but was not written by a team of experts from every relevant field touched upon, would also have to be deemed unreliable. As for the flip side of this coin, Al-Ifta's people having such training in this subject doesn't automatically make them individually or the organization collectively better (much less unassailable) sources, when the "training" is in large part indoctrination and isn't equivalent to scientific process (or the quasi-scientific processes of mainstream history and historiography). To the extent any argument they make is faith- rather than evidence-based, or is inductive, analogical, or especially abductive (as is clearly the case here) instead of deductive, then it's problematic. Ultimately, all sources have to be given WP:DUE weight, and this is a consensus that is largely determined through consensus-editorial assessment of numerous factors. One writer's lack of professional background will be such a factor, but so will another's being steeped in a particular "this is the one holy Truth" proselytization viewpoint. It is by no means irrelevant that Al-Ifta's obvious intent is defense of the perception of Muhammad as infallible, at all costs (even the costs of erosion of Islamic-law literalism that some hardliners in that religion would be unwilling to spend, and which from an outsider's viewpoint do not appear to be justifiable, as various Christian attempts to bend over backward with double-think and other fallacies to try to evade biblical contradictions do not). But it is also not irrelevant that Rodinson was no kind of specialist in the subject. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 17:18, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- But it is relevant that in this specific topic area Maxime Rodinson is not a specialist, but a generalist. He wrote many books about Marxism, but only one book about Muhammad or early Islam. His interest was one-off and cursory (in 1960). Iskandar323 (talk) 14:16, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- As a side note, the material being discussed here is likely WP:UNDUE for this page and should be covered instead Wives of Muhammad and Criticism of Muhammad. This article should only list the major criticisms made against Muhammad - not literally every single thing every author has ever written. Medieval Christian criticisms of Muhammad (among others) have been some of the most historically significant.VR (Please ping on reply) 21:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Probably so, mostly at the latter. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 17:24, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
References from all posts in the section from all editors
- ^ a b El-Azhari, Taef Kamal (2019). Queens, Eunuchs and Concubines in Islamic History, 661-1257. Edinburgh University Press. p. 27. ISBN 978-1-4744-2318-2.
- ^ Rodgers, Russ (2017). The Generalship of Muhammad: Battles and Campaigns of the Prophet of Allah. University Press of Florida. ISBN 978-0-8130-5459-9.
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 June 2024
FAQ No. 5
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"Change Muhammad to Muhammad Peace be upon him" Aadaab (talk) 23:21, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
|
Inauthentic source: The Life of Muhammad: A Translation of Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah. Translated by Guillaume, Alfred
Note that "The Life of Muhammad: A Translation of Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah. Translated by Guillaume, Alfred" is not an authentic source. It contains inauthentic hadith which have no chain of transmission. See this website and this website for example. You cannot just pick out random hadith from these types of works. Ibn Ishaq is a collection of all kinds of narrations, from fabricated to authentic, without any hadith criticism. It's just a collection of "what's being narrated," designed for hadith scholars to read and scrutinize for authenticity. A hadith without a chain is not authentic and is not a valid source. Just because a book somewhere says something, doesn't mean we can just pop it on Wikipedia as if it is a valid source. This is certainly not and has already been disproven. DivineReality (talk) 02:56, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
- This is a WP:PRIMARYSOURCE that should be avoided.VR (Please ping on reply) 04:37, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
Revise the sources
This article was revised so poorly by an Islamophobic editor. This article used to be a good article GA before some anti-Islam editor made such huge changes and implementing WP:POV. The biased editor just cherry-picked sources, ignoring classical works such as W. Montgomery Watt and relying on people like David Bukay (an Israeli political scientist who is known to be an anti-Arab and Islamophobic person), Russ Rodgers (a U.S. Army military historian), Ram Swarup (an Indian leader of the Hindu revivalist movement), William E. Phipps (a ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and others. There's no way these people are WP:RS and I'm actually surprised how dedicated orientalists like Watt have so less citations now than people like Bukay, Rodgers etc. I request the editors of this article to rewrite the article, and if not the entire article, then at least parts of the article. I would suggest this article be written like FA articles such as Khalid ibn al-Walid, Amr ibn al-As, Mu'awiya I, Yazid I, all of whom are controversial figures between Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims, but nevertheless these articles are written neutrally neither from a Shia point of view nor a Sunni point of view and having reliable orientalists and Islamicists such as Fred Donner, Wilferd Madelung, Meir Jacob Kister, Patricia Crone, Hugh N. Kennedy, R. Stephen Humphreys and not anti-Arab political scientists, Hindu revivalists or U.S. military historians. I would request the editors of this article to revise the sources. ProudRafidi (talk) 11:07, 13 June 2024 (UTC) Sockstrike ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 21:51, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- How does maintaining a Neutral Point of view make one Islamophobic? 174.80.86.227 (talk) 174.80.86.227 (talk) 15:32, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
- The sources you mentioned seem to be mostly reliable. What is your issue with them? Can you give an example for alleged "Islamophobic" claims they allegedly make here? Vegan416 (talk) 10:45, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
The Islamophobic sentences I was referring to got reverted after a talk discussion above. And can you elaborate on how people like David Bukay are a reliable source? He is an Israeli political scientist who has a whole criticism heading on his own article. He is a controversial figure and nowhere close to the Islamicists I mentioned above like Watt, Donner, Madelung, Kennedy etc. Same goes for the U.S. military historian and the Indian revivalist leader. ProudRafidi (talk) 11:44, 14 June 2024 (UTC)Sockstrike ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 21:51, 15 June 2024 (UTC)- Is there anything in the statements in the article that are referenced to these sources that you object to? Vegan416 (talk) 12:00, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Not really, I'm arguing against the sources right now and not the text and statements in the article. ProudRafidi (talk) 14:04, 14 June 2024 (UTC)Sockstrike ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 21:51, 15 June 2024 (UTC)- That doesn't seem so from what you said earlier "This article was revised so poorly" and "some anti-Islam editor made such huge changes and implementing WP:POV". So what's really bothering you in the article as it is now? Can you give an example? Vegan416 (talk) 14:45, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not against using other authors mentioned here as sources if that is the consensus. In fact, it might be preferable to avoid any accusations of cherry-picking sources and to ensure encyclopedic WP:Balance.
- Regardless of the outcome of the above discussion on using Rodinson or Rodgers, I am suspicious about using David Bukay as a source in this article. He is the type of person who may be relevant in articles like Counter-jihad and Islamophobia, and even then there are better options. If the issue is about the source's independence, as some have linked in the above sections, then David Bukay completely fails the policy's
"expected to cover the topic from a disinterested perspective."
StarkReport (talk) 14:30, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Is there anything in the statements in the article that are referenced to these sources that you object to? Vegan416 (talk) 12:00, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Fyi, ProudRadifi is another sock of the LTA Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/SheryOfficial. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
Reliable sources noticeboard discussion
For regulars and watchers of this page, there is a new discussion open at WP:RSN#RfC: Sources for Muhammad. Left guide (talk) 06:17, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
The same group of people may have some slight interest in watching Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Anachronist. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:13, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- There is now also a section on WP:NPOV Noticeboard on sources for Banu Qurayza: Here QcTheCat (talk) 14:25, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- There is now also this administrative discussion which pertains to much of the recent activity on this article and talk page. Left guide (talk) 08:25, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
Overall structure of the article
Comparing this article to the article on Jesus, I think the structure of this article is deficient, separate from but related to the issues regarding the sourcing in the article discussed previously. It presents the account of Muhammad's life as is known through early biographies and hadith largely uncritically, when many contemporary scholars have questioned the reliability of these sources, particularly the hadith (see [61] [62] [63] [64]). I think the best way to fix this would be to put all of the biographic headings (i.e the contents of the subheadings "Meccan years". "Medinan years" and "Final years") under a new heading like "Biography according to traditional Islamic sources", and then a new section should be creating discussing what scholars consider knowable or probable about the "historical Muhammad". Hemiauchenia (talk) 14:11, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- As for sources discussing the "historical Muhammad" in detail, the 2010 book The Cambridge Companion to Muhammad is probably a good place to start. Hemiauchenia (talk) 14:54, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think these are comparable examples. There is a wealth of biographical information about Muhammad, certainly relative to Jesus, whose life is extremely tricky to piece back together. The above approach is also not as simple as it sounds. Islamic tradition is not uniform. There is not one narrative. And there are early Islamic sources that are functionally secondary in that they approach the life of Muhammad not just as a religious narrative, but analytically try to tease out the more genuine narratives from the various hadith. Modern scholarly accountings are similarly based on earlier accounts. The upshot of all this is that there is a spectrum of analysis, not some sort of clear-cut religious narrative and something else. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:12, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- The things that are knowable or probable about Muhammad's life are more than the equivalent for Jesus, enough to give a basic biographical outline, probably enough to fill a Wikipedia article, but probably not a full book-length biography. I'll give you that. But there are stil huge problems with taking the accounts of the early sources at face value as this article currently does, as outlined in Robert Hoyland's 2007 paper Writing the Biography of the Prophet Muhammad: Problems and Solutions. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:22, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- It might be more preferable to do the historical criticism of facts as they are presented, as opposed to breaking it down into two sections like "According to Islamic sources" and "Historical criticism". It seems that the The Cambridge Companion to Muhammad also breaks down his life into the Meccan and Medinan years, so I would support keeping those two sections, at least. VR (Please ping on reply) 12:30, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Have you considered coming at this from the "Let's WP:GA it (again)!" direction? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:57, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Given the volume of scholarship, it really shouldn't be that hard to create a stable, authoritative GA biography. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:01, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Of course! Regarding his biography, it should only constitute a small fraction of this article. The The Cambridge Companion to Muhammad gives only 2-3 chapters (out of 14) to his biography. Thus, lets give only a basic outline here, and refer the reader to subarticles where it is covered in more detail. The rest of the article should be the role Muhammad's life (whether historical or imagined) has played in law, philosophy, personal piety, mysticism, history of the Middle East and European thought. There should also be a section on Muhammad in art (including 21st controversial drawings, but also including music, plays, architecture etc).
- Once again, The Cambridge Companion to Muhammad is a good way for us to determine how much weight to give to each section of this article.VR (Please ping on reply) 17:28, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- That would be a mistake. As noted in the introduction, the Cambridge Companion "represent[s then-]current trends in the scholarly study of Muhammad’s life and legacy". Not for nothing does the introduction itself recap Muhammad's biography—that is not the focus of the work, and the three chapters which focus on his life focus on specific events, not a comprehensive biography. The Companion does not seek to be an encyclopedic reflection of the man, as this article must be. Still, it is a top-tier source. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:43, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Given the volume of scholarship, it really shouldn't be that hard to create a stable, authoritative GA biography. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:01, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
Battle of Badr
Kaalakaa appears to have re-written the article Battle of Badr. I have concern with their changes and have started several discussions at Talk:Battle of Badr. I would appreciate other users' views.VR (Please ping on reply) 12:25, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
Handling material cited to Rodgers
Now that the ANI has been resolved, I think it's a good time to aim for a consensus on what to do with material cited to Rodgers. If I was to start purging it from the article, would there be any objections? And if so, what would be the ideal course of action instead? Left guide (talk) 05:23, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
- The RfC isn't closed. The in my opinion wrong topic ban on Kaalakaa is closed but to start as you say "purge" the article isn't the right way to improve the quality. Ip says: Work Better yes. (talk) 12:13, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Ip says: Why isn't it the right way to improve the article quality? And what alternative course of action do you suggest instead? Discussions both on this talk page and the last two archives show a consensus that Rodgers is largely unsuitable for this article on WP:NPOV grounds. Left guide (talk) 21:11, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- I would use the primary sources as per wp:weight. They tell more or less the same story as Rodgers. Of course in a properly attributed and balanced way. Ip says: Work Better yes. (talk) 23:32, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- That makes absolutely no sense and/or reveals no understanding of WP policy. WP:WEIGHT is essentially about giving due prominence "in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in [reliable] sources". That is inherently about reflecting the interpretation of secondary sources. The point of WP:PRIMARY is to exclude the use of primary sources in interpretation. They can be used only for the narrow purpose of say that in "Primary Source Y it says X", nothing more. Whether it is NPOV that that should be said at all is a question of WP:WEIGHT defined by the secondary sources. DeCausa (talk) 23:46, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Primary sources don't count towards WP:WEIGHT, and discussions on this talk page have demonstrated that Rodgers doesn't count either. Left guide (talk) 23:52, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- I would use the primary sources as per wp:weight. They tell more or less the same story as Rodgers. Of course in a properly attributed and balanced way. Ip says: Work Better yes. (talk) 23:32, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Ip says: Why isn't it the right way to improve the article quality? And what alternative course of action do you suggest instead? Discussions both on this talk page and the last two archives show a consensus that Rodgers is largely unsuitable for this article on WP:NPOV grounds. Left guide (talk) 21:11, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- Remove this "Following the Battle of Badr, Muhammad revealed his intention to expel the Jews from the land." under section "Conflicts With Jewish Tribes". This is attributed to Rodgers only and apparently primary sources. Neutralhappy (talk) 15:11, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Neutralhappy: Looks like that particular statement was tagged in May as {{dubious}} by Iskandar323 paired with a small discussion above. Are there high-quality secondary sources that talk about this? If not, I agree that it seems best to remove it for failing to satisfy WP:WEIGHT, since it's now been challenged multiple times. Left guide (talk) 21:11, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- Removed Left guide (talk) 00:03, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Neutralhappy: Looks like that particular statement was tagged in May as {{dubious}} by Iskandar323 paired with a small discussion above. Are there high-quality secondary sources that talk about this? If not, I agree that it seems best to remove it for failing to satisfy WP:WEIGHT, since it's now been challenged multiple times. Left guide (talk) 21:11, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
I've also reset a couple of relatively Rodgers-heavy sections (namely "Battle of the Trench" and "Conquest of Mecca") to their May 2023 status quo versions. Left guide (talk) 00:45, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- And now more of the same with the "Beginning of armed conflict" section. Left guide (talk) 07:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep up the good work. I'm glad someone has the energy to properly survey the changes. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:57, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you Iskandar323! Your encouragement is encouraging. :) Left guide (talk) 08:01, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep up the good work. I'm glad someone has the energy to properly survey the changes. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:57, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
Reliability of Richard A. Gabriel
To piggyback off of Talk:Muhammad/Archive 34#Suspect sources where the original post said I have no doubt that there are plenty of other sources of this ilk that have found their way onto the page
, I noticed that this book was absent in the status quo May 2023 version but has since entered the article with dozens of citations, frequently bundling or supplementing suspect sources like Rodgers and Glubb; it may have slipped under the radar as it appears to be undiscussed on the talk page and archives. How reliable and WP:DUE is Richard A. Gabriel for this article? Is he in the top tiers of the global Muhammad scholarship community? Or are we dealing with another Rodgers-level author? For what it's worth, it's also a military-focused book published by a university press, and the end of the Google Books description says Richard A. Gabriel challenges existing scholarship on Muhammad's place in history and offers a viewpoint not previously attempted.
which makes me wonder if it's a WP:FRINGE point-of-view. pinging eligible participants from the "suspect sources" discussion @Iskandar323, Gråbergs Gråa Sång, Anachronist, and DeCausa: Left guide (talk) 06:46, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- A few reviews:[65][66][67] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- BTW, has anyone made a list of biographies etc that are WP-good sources for this article? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I haven't, but this review provides the list of scholars considered competent up to 2009. Rodinson is notably on there, but again, this is a decade-and-a-half-old list and works from the 60s are pushing the limits anyway. On Gabriel (and Rodgers), if they have specific, meaningful input on matters of a strictly military nature, and they agree between themselves, then they can have at it. The problem for me was always the extension of the interpretation of these very niche specialists (whose specialism is tightly confined to military history) to political, sociocultural and religious observations that there are in no position to make, as non-Arabist, non-specialist historians (i.e.: not of the Middle Eastern specialty variety), whose entire corpuses of works consist of hopping about history rather eclectically to focus on the famous past military leaders of history. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:25, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well, we can use {{refideas}} to make such a list atop this talk page. I currently have access to a version of this book by Karen Armstrong, which recent source discussions both here and at RSN appear to show as one of the top Muhammad biographies. Left guide (talk) 22:17, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 July 2024
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 July 2024
FAQ No. 6
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make Muhammad Prophet Muhammad Expenderous (talk) 18:31, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
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Abraha's expedition
Presently the following is present in the article:
Islamic tradition states that Muhammad's birth year coincided with Yemeni King Abraha's unsuccessful attempt to conquer Mecca.[49] Recent studies, however, challenge this notion, as other evidence suggests that the expedition, if it had occurred, would have transpired substantially before Muhammad's birth.[1][50][51][52][53][47] Later Muslim scholars presumably linked Abraha's renowned name to the narrative of Muhammad's birth to elucidate the unclear passage about "the men of elephants" in Quran 105:1–5.[50][54] The Oxford Handbook of Late Antiquity deems the tale of Abraha's war elephant expedition as a myth.[51]
1) "Myth" has multiple meanings. Which meaning is intended here? One is "supernatural" and the other is "false". Such ambiguous words should be replaced with unambiguous words.
2) Can unsuccessful expedition transpire substantially? The incident is about an expedition which failed to achieve its mission. Can such a failed attempt transpire anything "substantially" in the part where it failed? The sentence seems to be illogical.
3) This Wikipedia article says:
The Quran, however, provides minimal assistance for Muhammad's chronological biography; most Quranic verses do not provide significant historical context and timeline.[19][20] Almost none of Muhammad's companions are mentioned by name in the Quran, hence not providing sufficient information for a concise biography.[18]
So it seems confusing to say "unclear" here specifically.
4) I read this. This is the first citation given to show that the Abraha's expedition has not taken place. But this source does not say Abraha's expedition did not take place. But it discusses the year it happened.
5) There is no need of saying in the article it is a myth because it is already known it is a miraculous thing that birds killing elephants.
6) This appears to be unwanted, disruptive edit.
7) This says about likelihood. So should the sentence contain "likelily" even if it is kept in the present form.
8) What about removing the term "unclear" before the term "passage"?
9) Atleast rewriting seems to be necessary.
10) Kindly write about the remaining sources.
So remove:
"Recent studies, however, challenge this notion, as other evidence suggests that the expedition, if it had occurred, would have transpired substantially before Muhammad's birth.[1][50][51][52][53][47]
remove:
The Oxford Handbook of Late Antiquity deems the tale of Abraha's war elephant expedition as a myth.[51]
Neutralhappy (talk) 21:53, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Myth: "an ancient story or set of stories, especially explaining the early history of a group of people or about natural events and facts:". MOS:MYTH has a little guidance. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:07, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- 11) Does the term "studies" in the said part mean just writings or study papers or archeological evidence or mathematical calculations or something else? When we see or read the term "studies" the first meaning that comes to our mind is "archeological discovery". So it should be replaced with the better term "archeological discovery" if it so. If it is not archeological discovery, it should replaced be with "writings", "academic writings", "publications", "study papers", "analysis", or the like. Thus this part in the current form is confusing, and thus not in the best form. Removal is an option to solve the problem.
- 12) The two sentences I proposed for deletion in the part are non-biographical information. Hence there is no significant problem with its removal.
- 13) If it corrected it should be similar to one like "though the year of the expedition does not likely coincide with the Muhammad's year of birth." This is not necessary because it contains "Islamic tradition states".
- 14) There was a different but better 1 July 2023 version of this current apparent bad faith edit. That would be better than the present one. Note this edit has added the term "Islamic" and the edit did not say the expedition did not take place though several citations were added. It is important and intresting to note that the citations added to say the expedition took place but it must have taken place earlier than the year of birth of Muhammad. The citations used to say this are:
- Conrad, 1987
- Reynolds, 2023 p. 16
- Peters, 2010 p. 61
- Muesse, 2018 p.213
- Buhl&Welch, 1993 p. 361
- The same citations, except that of Johnson, are used to say the seemingly illogical thing of failed attempt transpiring substantially. These are the present sources used to say this seemingly illogical thing and create a notion that the expedition did not take place:
- Conrad, 1987
- Reynolds, 2023 p. 16
- Johnson, 2015 p. 286
- Peters, 2010 p. 61
- Muesse, 2018 p. 213
- Buhl&Welch, 1993 p. 361
- 15) Use of the term "evidence" in the present version also seems to be misleading since they likely refer to tradion. Overall the edit is of poor quality.
- 16) The same editor who was later banned from editing on topics related to Islam reworded their own edit but this time giving the opposite notion that the expedition never took place, besides making the article saying the seemingly illogical thing of failed attempt transpiring substantially.
- 17) Because it contains the seemingly illogical thing of a failed thing transpiring substantially, there needs at least a "clarify" tag.
- 18) Overall the part in the present form could be said to be illogical, disruptive, unwanted, confusing and not directly biographical.
- 19) Using the term "myth" to refer to miraculous things is not needed because generally supernatural or miraculous things altogether are apparently considered not possible to happen, by many. Here it is a miraculous thing of the birds killing the elephants. So remove the part saying "myth". This also creates a notion that this use the word of "myth" is done after conducting a study on the subject whereas the source likely have used the term "myth" just because it is a miracle or a supernatural thing. Moreover there should be a clarification why they used it. If it is because of its supernatural or miraculous nature, it might be better to say either "since all supernatural things are myths" or "since it considers all supernatural things as myths" Neutralhappy (talk) 20:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- 20) On 1 July 2023 itself, the same editor later added the citation of Johnson to say the expedition of Abraha took place. Again the same editor on 1 July 2023 changed the year "2023" to "2015" which is in the current version.
- Going through this book (published: 13 September 2012) I found the following:
Thus it is important to distinguish, on the one hand, the campaign of 552, which allowed Abraha to reestablish his authority over almost all of inner Arabia, and on the other hand, the Battle of the Elephant, which happened later and could be the cause of the collapse of Himyarite domination over inner Arabia. This Battle of the Elephant could be dated between 555 and 565, probably closer to 565, toward the end of Abraha's reign.
- I found in the 2015 book on page 285:
This 2015 book, which is another edition of the book published on 13 September 2012, is the same book used in the article to say it is a myth and to say the illogical thing of a failed thing transpiring substantially and to create a notion that the expedition did not take place.... Abraha's reign , probably around thirty years from 535 to 565 , is not easy to define with precision . Dated ... Abraha had two successors , two sons who did not reign very long . It is thus plausible that Abraha died a few years ...
- One option to solve all this problem is just to remove the two sentences I proposed for deletion. Neutralhappy (talk) 05:15, 23 July 2024 (UTC)