Talk:Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change

openletterfromscientists.com is a spoof site now

There is a link in the article to http://www.openletterfromscientists.com/ but at least today it is a spoof site. Maybe they lost the domain?--Qgil (talk) 18:08, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Guess so.... I changed the link to an AGU statement on the matter, which was the most reliable source I could find. Sailsbystars (talk) 21:14, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Vincent Gray Criticsm

Removed from article as hardly any significance to topic:

Retired coal industry researcher Vincent Gray wrote:

"Over the years, as I have learned more about the data and procedures of the IPCC, I have found increasing opposition by them to providing explanations, until I have been forced to the conclusion that for significant parts of the work of the IPCC, the data collection and scientific methods employed are unsound. Resistance to all efforts to try and discuss or rectify these problems has convinced me that normal scientific procedures are not only rejected by the IPCC, but that this practice is endemic, and was part of the organization from the very beginning." National Post

Someone best known as a skeptic, apparently Vincent R. Gray, complaining in the Financial Post section of the National Post, is no more news than dog bites man. At best it's a primary source for a fringe view, and needs more coverage in more reputable sources if it's to feature anywhere, let alone in the main article on the topic. . dave souza, talk 18:39, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

IPCC WG3 and Greenpeace report

Steve McIntyre has posted a study of the source of WG3's recent claim that

Close to 80 percent of the world‘s energy supply could be met by renewables by mid-century if backed by the right enabling public policies. a new report shows.

Per McIntyre's research,

The basis for this claim is a Greenpeace scenario. The Lead Author of the IPCC assessment of the Greenpeace scenario was the same Greenpeace employee who had prepared the Greenpeace scenarios, the introduction to which was written by IPCC chair Pachauri.

We should wait for a third-party report, I think, but it doesn't appear that the IPCC has learned anything from their recent stumbles. Quite remarkable. --Pete Tillman (talk) 17:47, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Since you're keen on pushing comments by bloggers, the comments of the rather more qualified Michael Tobis may be of interest. McIntyre's expertise in innuendo appears to be unabated. . . dave souza, talk 18:43, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Dave, you (and others) may be interested in the comments of Mark Lynas, author of Six Degrees: Our Future on a Hotter Planet, here. And I think your comment on "McIntyre's expertise in innuendo" is unjustified, especially here.

Once again, we should wait for 3rd-party RS publication of this, which I expect won't be long. --Pete Tillman (talk) 19:02, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

• Andrew Revkin at the NY Times has now published an account of this: A Deeper Look at an Energy Analysis Raises Big Questions. So we have our RS, but still might better to wait a bit. WP is not a newspaper, etc. Cheers, Pete Tillman (talk) 21:21, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

And Revkin has quickly added a couple of updates, including a statement by a lead author. Looks like much ado over very little. Since the report isn't mentioned in this article, it is indeed premature to start including this blog speculation. . . dave souza, talk 22:21, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Dave said, "Looks like much ado over very little." Well, I don't think so, but you (and others) may want to read Zeke Hausfather's take on this at Lucia Liljegren's: A new IPCC “scandal”: a tale of poor choices and press releases. Best, Pete Tillman (talk) 23:41, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

More blogs? --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 00:20, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Kim, there are blogs and blogs. Hausfather is a regular contributor at the Yale Forum on Climate Change, and IB we have used one or more of his articles as RS's here. In the climate change world, he tilts more "your" way than "mine".... Best, Pete Tillman (talk) 04:26, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Still blogs. The Arbcomm case specifically cautioned against blog-sourced content. If this is notable, it will be covered by some high-quality source. Content only covered by blogs, no matter how notable the author, really doesn't belong in this article. Guettarda (talk) 05:11, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

• Another RS report: Climate change panel in hot water again over 'biased' energy report, The Independent (UK), June 16, 2011
  • "Another"? A handful blogs and an editorial don't amount to anything of substance. An editorial which says that unnamed critics are unhappy. In essence, he's saying "bloggers have complained!" Wow! Let's create an article about it! Let's create a whole series of articles about it! Or you could stop wasting everyone's time creating entire sections on every bit of trivia you come across. Guettarda (talk) 18:42, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Here's an idea: you can save your time by not sniping here.... Cheers, Pete Tillman (talk) 22:55, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Here's an even better idea: Wait until a story is notable before starting to "prepare the grounds"? And generally not use Wikipedia as your personal blog/news-aggregator. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 22:59, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Kim, I think this is a pretty standard way to prep for writing a breaking-news section. Only RSs will go into the article, if we judge this substantial enough to include. -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tillman (talk • contribs)

No, that is definitively not a "pretty standard way"... We're an encyclopedia here - not a newspaper. We're supposed to be reactive, not pro-active in reporting. You are trying to scoop - not trying to describe an already existing item - and that is something that WP should never do. (per WP:NOT#JOURNALISM) --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 22:29, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

• New RS: The Economist's Babbage covers the IPCC-Greenpeace controversy. He's unimpressed with the IPCC WG3 authors' responses so far, and has some constructive suggestions. --Pete Tillman (talk) 20:05, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Quote, "In this blog, our correspondents report on the intersections between science, technology, culture and policy." Very questionable if it's a rs. Authored "Jun 17th 2011, 17:15 by O.M." so no indication of any expertise, an anonymous blog correspondent. . . dave souza, talk 20:50, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Isn't "Babbage" one of their regular columnists? I've never much cared for that Economist practice, but always figured it was some UK tradition thing... --Pete Tillman (talk) 21:20, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Babbage is the name of the column, not a pseudonym of the author. The Economist does not credit individual authors or editors except in rare cases. It's not a UK thing, it's an Economist thing. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:27, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

<ec> Note the plural, it looks like "Babbage" is the blog, and articles are written by "our correspondents" which might mean no more than people who write to them. WP:NEWSBLOG says "These are acceptable as sources if the writers are professionals and the blog is subject to the newspaper's full editorial control." No evidence of that, at best it's a comment piece by an anon. Given the propagandising of business interests it would not be surprising to see this rather trivial spat published somewhere, but this ain't it. If it does get published, care will be needed to show mainstream assessments of this rather gossipy claim. dave souza, talk 21:35, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Stephan. Dave, the column is bylined "O.M."; perhaps a regular Economist reader can decode? It certainly looks like professional journalism. -- Pete Tillman (talk) 22:00, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

• "OM" is Oliver Morton (science writer), a widely-published writer and former chief news and features editor at Nature.

This op-ed at The Australian quotes Lynas at some length, and notes that "The affair has developed into a new scandal for the IPCC, dogged by criticism over the quality of some of its research material."-- Pete Tillman (talk) 16:27, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Another opinion piece, this time by a partisan newspaper (tabloid?) known for unrelenting partisan attacks on science. Hardly a third party source with a reputation for fact checking and accuracy. . . dave souza, talk 21:01, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

• Conflict of interest claimed for IPCC energy report by Fred Pearce, New Scientist. Pull quote:

The charge of a conflict of interest has been made by people unconnected with climate scepticism.

• Should Greenpeace Be Writing IPCC Reports? By Hank Campbell, Science 2.0. Pull quote:

For climate scientists to make positive inroads in policy regarding a problem we know is only going to get worse - pollution and climate change - they need to police the actions of a few in their circle, most notably the very loud.

---

I think we have enough RS's to write this up now. Lead with Andrew Revkin, Oliver Morton and Fred Pearce, I think. --Pete Tillman (talk) 19:01, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Still very much in the blogosphere, Pearce is essentially reporting that Lynas has blogged some demands that no-one with campaigning or industry connections should be allowed to be an IPCC lead author. Since authors don't get paid for the work, that cuts down the field of experts available and makes it harder for this intergovernmental panel to do anything. Probably what its critics want. Of course this comes from "climate change campaigner Mark Lynas", so pot meet kettle. Essentially this seems to boil down to a complaint about press releases going out before the relevant papers. Take it up with the IPCC press office.
As for Science 2.0, that seems to be somewhere between a blog and a wiki. "Hello and welcome to Science 2.0®, the world's largest science outreach network and the flagship of the Science 2.0 network. By getting an account you can customize your profile with pictures, banner, a personal blogroll and more. You can also leave comments on articles, add other members to your friend lists, chat with people on the site, make blogs on your column or eventually write articles that can be seen by hundreds of thousands of other Science 2.0 participants." Nothing there about qualifications or expertise, nor in the profile of Hank Campbell.
Arbcom made a point about sourcing climate change info from blogs, these proposals look very much over that line. Please stop wasting people's time with such inadequate sourcing. . . dave souza, talk 20:07, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

• Nature editorial on the IPCC-Greenpeace affair: "Shot with its own gun", 29 June 2011. Re IPC COI policy: "Pachauri is on record as saying that the new conflict-of-interest policy will not apply retrospectively to the hundreds of authors already selected for the IPCC's fifth assessment report, due in 2014. This is unacceptable. He should make it a priority to ensure that the rules cover everyone involved — including himself." --Pete Tillman (talk) 18:08, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Also some other interesting quotes in that article: "Claims in the blogosphere that Greenpeace 'dictated' the IPCC's renewable-energy report are vastly exaggerated. In fact, the Greenpeace writer was one of six authors of a peer-reviewed paper that examined an extreme scenario of favourable economic conditions that allowed the maximum possible take-up of renewable energy sources by 2050. Although the scenario is optimistic — and no doubt in line with the agenda at Greenpeace HQ — its inclusion is entirely justified. How else could the report answer the question of how much renewable energy would be possible under different economic assumptions?

    The IPCC's vulnerability to such attacks should also prompt it to reconsider how it frames its findings. Journalists and critics alike gravitate towards extreme claims. So when the IPCC's press material for the May report prominently pushed the idea that renewables could provide “close to 80%” of the world's energy needs by 2050, it was no surprise that it was this figure that made headlines — and made waves. The IPCC would have saved itself a lot of trouble and some unwarranted criticism had it made the origins of this scenario explicit."; "There is no escaping the fact that the IPCC operates in a latently hostile environment. Its critics are vocal, frequently melodramatic and unlikely to surrender the limelight any time soon. The IPCC has to stop handing them ammunition on a plate." NW (Talk) 18:25, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for these. It's a reasonably-balanced editorial, though still a bit too concerned with providing WG3 a fig-leaf, in my judgment. Good to see them pressing Pachauri re COI.

It will be awhile before I can write this up, but you (or anyone else interested) are (of course) welcome to do so. It definitely seems to pass the notability test. Cheers, Pete Tillman (talk) 18:48, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

No problem. If you don't have the full version of the editorial, just pop me an email. NW (Talk) 22:54, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Citations have broken links

I have found a number of important citations with broken links. I cannot make any more edits, could someone please correct, or remove these? 173.58.71.50 (talk) 22:07, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Good gosh a golly, yes, it's terrible! Outright violation of WP:Verifiability. (Don't any of these editors know how to cite?) There are incomplete citations, very incomplete (i.e., bare url) citations, and some of those are dead links. Well, I can fix some of that (though my plate is getting rather full, perhaps not right away). But I will do it my way -- including {{Harv}} templates. I am not going query, ask, or propose, for the simple reason that as all of you watching this article have failed to fix these glaring violations you have effectively quit the field. Assuming these are not fixed before I get started, I will let you know when I am done. _ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:56, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Not a scientific body

Even the opening sentence of the article is wrong. The IPCC is essentially a political body not a scientific one. It's brief is uphold the theory that CO2 is causing global warming. So naturally it does this, come what may. SmokeyTheCat 21:30, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Lacking reliable sources to support your statement, it's just an opinion. And that's not what this is built on. And before you get all hot to argue the point, please note that this is not a forum. – J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:07, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Let's not be so hasty when attacking uncomfortable suggestions, please!. WP may not be a forum, but Talk Pages are definitely a forum for improving the article. So, in that respect, this IS indeed a forum. Perhaps the statement could be reconsidered as a poorly-worded request to improve the article by including more discussion of the political ambitions of the IPCC. How are we going to deal with the recent revelation that two-thirds of the IPCC's Climate Bible were written by World Wildlife Fund flacks? Eight of the authors of the Ecosystems chapter were written by authors affiliated with the WWF. How will we improve the credibility of this article if we don't discuss the political roles of Environmental Defense Fund, Greenpeace, and the WWF within the IPCC? Santamoly (talk) 03:15, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree that what Smokey said is significant, and I'd like us to make some effort to find reliable sources that support (and oppose) the viewpoint he introduces.

• Supporters of the anthropogenic global warming theory (AGW) generally assert that the IPCC is an objective source of scientific information.
• Opponents of AGW have been accusing the IPCC of bias for at least 25 years.

In accordance with NPOV policy, therefore, I request that we present both pro-IPCC and anti-IPCC viewpoints. --Uncle Ed (talk) 13:52, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

[The IPCC] was established [...] to provide the world with a clear scientific view on the current state of knowledge in climate change and its potential environmental and socio-economic impacts. [...] The IPCC is a scientific body. I also think you confuse objectivity/bias with scientific/political, or you seem to talk about something different than Smokey. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:11, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Your source for "The IPCC is a scientific body" is the IPCC itself. What's the policy on using a the topic of an article for a source? Do we rely on whitehouse.gov for information about The White House? --Uncle Ed (talk) 19:01, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

The opening statement here makes no suggestions (uncomfortable or otherwise), it is a declaration of personal opinion. Smokey says the IPCC's "brief" is to "uphold the theory that CO2 is causing global warming", but without citing any kind of source. Stephan cites the actual brief, which says otherwise; that trumps the unsupported personal opinion. The accusation that the IPCC is biased (or that its own statement is not reliable) is WP:FRINGE, and per WP:WEIGHT does not belong in the lede. Finding sufficient reliable sources to pull that viewpoint out of fringe status is highlydoubtful, as that ground as been well trod, and has a diminishing trend; such an effort would certainly constitute WP:POVPUSHing.

And you all have been around long enough to know all that, so cool it. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:07, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Huh? Are you actually saying that if I produce a reliable source, who is the author of a peer reviewed paper on climate change, who feels that the IPCC is biased, that would constitute POV-pushing? (I assume I'm not understanding you correctly, because giving all points of view on a controversy is not POV-pushing.) --Uncle Ed (talk) 22:51, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand you, nor that you understand WP:NPOV and WP:FRINGE. One peer-reviewed paper does not, in general, make someone a RS, much less a significant voice. For comparison, the IPCC position has been endorsed by scores of academies of science. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:30, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

We cannot say that IPCC is a scientific body without an outside source saying so. I'm sure there are some. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:57, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Here is the US EPA [1]. Then there are several papers making that claim: [2] [3] [4] [5], and more is easy to find. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

You can do better than that. [1] and [4] just quote the IPCC charter; [5] says "generally accepted as the main, expert, scientific body on climate change issues", and shows bias in the name of the journal; and I can't read [2] and [3] as behind a paywall. As I said, I'm sure there are outside sources, but I'm not sure any of those are. If "scientific body" is referenced to a reliable source which really says that, I have no objection. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:26, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, but the sources are plenty good. [1] and [4] use the same phrasing as the IPCC, but in the authors' voice. [5] is from a collection of scholarly papers published by OUP. Also see WP:PAYWALL. If you are in law school, your institution almost certainly can provide access. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:15, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Re Uncle Ed: Yes. Neutral point of view depends on the WP:WEIGHT of all sources. If there are a hundred (a thousand!) papers saying "white", and one paper that says "black", the positions are not equal, and presenting them as equal would be NON-neutral POV. It is not a matter of presenting all points of view, but of presenting them in proper importance or weight. To insist on giving any source more weight than it warrants is pov pushing.

For all the carping you might find that some narrow position or another of the IPCC is not exactly balanced to someone's personal satisfaction, there is no signficant pov (and I suspect not even a single reliable source) that the IPCC as a whole, or its work, is biased. Nor has anyone here presented any documentation of any "brief" to "uphold the theory that CO2 is causing global warming". ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:22, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

More than a scientific body

The discussion above shows some confusion about the IPCC which I've tried to resolve by clarifying the lead. The IPCC is an intergovernmental scientific body, involving both scientists (and other experts where appropriate) and representatives of 120+ governments. The review procedure involves both, and summaries for policy makers are subject to line-by-line approval by all participating governments. Note that I've also worded the Nobel Prize bit to correspond more closely to the source, and have moved that to follow from the other plaudits rather than mixing it with the basic description of the IPCC at the start of the lead.
Weart describes it as being formed as "a new, fully independent group under the control of government representatives" and "neither a strictly scientific nor a strictly political body, but a unique hybrid. This met the divergent needs of a variety of groups, especially within the United States government, which was a prime stimulator for the action." There's more in Weart, and my aim is to improve sections of the article using his history as a basis. Work in progress. . . dave souza, talk 22:33, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Good. "Weart" is, of course, Stephen Spencer Weart and his book is "The Discovery of Global Warming". I believe it has a good reputation, but be careful of not getting too wrapped up in any one source.

And the citations here are still wretched. I am almost ready to start hacking on them. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) 19:38, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

potential resource, new report

From Kampala meeting, per NHK ...

http://www.ipcc.ch/meetings/session34/doc01_p34_prov_agenda.pdf

99.112.212.242 (talk) 01:37, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

From Talk:Extreme weather ...

• U.N. Panel Finds Climate Change Behind Some Extreme Weather Events by Justin Gillis published November 18, 2011 New York Times (page A5 in print), excerpt ...

  The findings were released at a conference in Kampala, Uganda, by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, a high-profile United Nations body assigned to review and report periodically on developments in climate research. They come at a time of unusual weather disasters around the globe, from catastrophic flooding in Asia and Australia to blizzards, floods, heat waves, droughts, wildfires and windstorms in the United States that have cost billions of dollars.

• U.N. Sees Links to Extreme Weather by Nicholas Bariyo and John M. Biers November, 2011 Wall Street Journal (page A11 in print), excerpt ...

  Climate change is leading to at least some cases of more extreme weather events across the globe, according to a report released on Friday by a United Nations-led scientific panel on the subject. The IPCC report comes against the backdrop of the most severe drought in the Horn of Africa in 60 years, unseasonably heavy snow in the U.S. and floods in Thailand and a national drought emergency in Tuvalu. It includes recommendations for measures, such as early warning systems, better land-use planning and more sophisticated risk management to address climate change.

99.56.120.136 (talk) 00:24, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

As I said before (but was anonymously deleted)

these reports are not about the IPCC. By the IPCC, yes, but they do a lot of reports, and unless someone is proposing to do a bibliography of all of the IPCC's reports there is yet to be shown any reason for featuring this one report. You are confusing news about unusual weather with the agency that sponsored the research that lead to the news. This article is about the agency, not unusual weather. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) 21:36, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Unusual weather redirects to Extreme weather. 99.35.12.139 (talk) 06:01, 30 November 2011 (UTC)