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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Post-Finasteride Syndrome

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Post-Finasteride Syndrome

Post-Finasteride Syndrome (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Content fork of finasteride. Already discussed there with sufficient weight. JFW | T@lk 23:25, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Wow, how can some check all references in two hours. This is a new article with all references needed. But, I realy wonder, how someone can read and check all of them in less than two hours. Even the term is valid. This is ridiculous. If you dont have the articles, get them and read them. --Brainbug666 (talk) 00:43, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • This article is fully referenced to actual scientific studies and data. The information appears to be displayed accurately, and unbiased. Post-Finasteride Syndrome is now a medically recognized condition by many physicians within the medical community and this article is totally correct in laying out the facts regarding the condition. Those seeking to delete this article should be considered biased or perhaps working for the drug's manufacturer Merck themselves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.27.163.166 (talk • contribs)
  • References in this article are being weighted much too heavily and there seems to be a lot of conjecture and discussion that has not been obtained from the sources. The first is a single case study on one patient. References 11, 12, 13 and 18 are animal studies. References 5, 6 and 8 all contain significant biases ("...Study limitations include a post hoc approach, selection bias, recall bias..."). 25-29 are particularly poor. There are some acceptable references such as 14, 15, 16, 20 and 22, but all of these already exist and are discussed in the finasteride page. This article does present an apparent bias, and one example of such: suggesting an increased high-grade prostate cancer risk but not including a more up-to-date reference that indicates that it does not cause it (see finasteride). Since the only acceptable references are already included and discussed in the finasteride article, I can't see this one staying around without inclusion of some much better sources. The most I can ascertain is that case reports exist, but this has not been medically quantified or qualified aside from studies with significant self-disclosed flaws. This doesn't warrant a dedicated page or anything more than a section within the finasteride article. Please refrain from suggesting editors are biased or are working for pharmaceutical companies.DangerGrouse (talk) 04:28, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
the user DangerGrouse says, "The first is a single case study on one patient. " What is not true. 698 Clinical analysis in young patient with persistent sexual dysfunctions after finasteride assumption to prevent male pattern hair loss. So where did you read its only one Patient? This only shows, you did not read it or even have it. But for your Info, "We enrolled in a retrospective study 78 patients affected by PFS" The user says"References 11, 12, 13 and 18 are animal studies." Count the aninaml studies in the finasteride article. the user DangerGrouse says,"References 5, 6 and 8 all contain significant biases." What about the significant biases in the finasteride article, where you can find many studies, done by pharmaceutical companies? What lead me to this statement of the user Dangergrouse, "Please refrain from suggesting editors are biased or are working for pharmaceutical companies." The user DangerGrouse says, "25-29 are particularly poor." Well, this are only a few references from newspapers, for the public interest and do not supp. any science background. Funny he mention that. The term Post-Finsateride Syndrome is used by many patient (just have a look on Propeciahelp.com), MD´s, scientists, media, people and lawyers. The PFSfoundation is also leaded by MD´s. It was also topic at the World Meeting on Sexual Medicine. This can not be discussed away. --Brainbug666 (talk) 12:00, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia content (especially medical safety and efficacy claims) is strictly governed by policies and guidelines. To understand the objections to this article you'll need to read and fully grasp Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) and WP:POV FORK. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 09:58, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's obvious Post Finasteride Syndrome (PFS) warrants its own wikipedia page. There is much more evidence and reseaerch interest in PFS than Post SSRI sexual dysfunction (PSSD) and PSSD has its own wikipedia page. The study that launched the PSSD wikipedia page had just four subjects while the Dr. Irwig study had over 60. This was the major health alert on ABC News and NBC News, along with appearing on the front page of Yahoo! There are also the Dr. Goldstein and Dr. Traish peer-reviewed papers. There is massive research interest in Post Finasteride Syndrome for several reasons. With billions of dollars in lawsuits at stake, Post Finasteride Syndrome is quickly becoming a hot topic in health, finance, lifestyle. Post Finasteride Syndrome deserves its own Wikipedia page. Period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gilmour1201 (talk • contribs) 09:52, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia content, especially medical safety and efficacy claims, is strictly governed by policies and guidelines. To understand the objections to this article you'll need to read and fully grasp Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine). --Anthonyhcole (talk) 09:58, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • This "debate" shouldn't exist, not the article. PFS is a medical condition recognized by various MD's and PhD's around the world. Not to mention several prestigious medical and scientific institutions.--99.27.163.166 (talk) 15:35, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The user/admin 'Jfdwolff' wants the article deleted because its a "Content fork of finasteride." But this argument is untrue as (despite the name) this syndrome can occur as a result of a number 5alpha-reductase enzyme inhibitors, not just Finasteride. Therefore this argument is NOT valid. As the article meets all other guidlines with respect to deletion it should be kept. Thanks! JacksonKnight (talk) 16:33, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Please nominate Postorgasmic illness syndrome for deletion. It looks to me like it breaches our content guidelines too. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 10:04, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 18:25, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The sources cited in the article demonstrate that side effects of finasteride have been studied, as is the case with any modern medicine, but provide no evidence that this has been recognised as a syndrome by any WP:MEDRS-compliant sources. For the avoidance of doubt, I have no bias, not having heard of finasteride before today, and have no connection to Merck. Let's keep conspiracy theories out of this discussion. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:05, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment the user Phil Bridger says, this article provide no evidence that this has been recognised as a syndrome. What is not true. Please, if you dont have the sources, why do you take part of this discussion? The user says, he has not having heard of finasteride before today. Is the user able to have a look on the sources? Is he than able to say if they are valid or not? How can this be user Phil Bridger?
"The mentioned side effects are described as reversible. However in literature a lot of case of persistent sexual adverse symptoms are signaled. The persistence of symptoms after discontinuation is named Post Finasteride Syndrome (PFS)."
Taken from the first source. --Brainbug666 (talk) 19:42, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • No thats not correct, you are thinking about something else. I am discussing the first reference in this wiki entry. This is a peer-reviewed paper published in an academic journal that uses the "Post Finasteride Syndrome" name. This is all the evidence this wiki entry needs! I only posted that link because it contains the abstract.JacksonKnight (talk) 21:47, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can people please stop accusing me of not checking the sources when they clearly haven't done so themselves? That edition of European Urology Supplements has as its subtitle, "27th Annual Congress of the European Association of Urology – Abstracts: Paris, France: 24–28 February 2012". Phil Bridger (talk) 21:50, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article is published in a peer-reviewed academic journal and is written by University Profesors, it is also a secondary source for the name "Post Finasteride Syndrome". In fact this meets every 'reliable source' WP:MEDRS criteria, therefore this wiki entry should stay. To disagree you must clearly state why this article breaches Wikipedia's guidelines or you have no counter argument.JacksonKnight (talk) 22:32, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The abstract itself is confusing and poorly written (ex: "However in literature a lot of case of persistent sexual adverse symptoms are signaled"). The study retrospectively enrolled 78 participants that presented persistent symptoms, but then goes on to say that these men were somehow given questionnaires before they started treatment. The only way this would be possible is if the researchers knew all men in the study would end up with these rare symptoms, which is quite unlikely. Additionally, the results of the hormonal tests were not discussed in the results, which leaves me to wonder why.DangerGrouse (talk) 01:09, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't see how the syntax of the article has much to do with its reputability. When examining an article, I would think one would concentrate more so on the authors -- who, as has been mentioned above, are respected professors -- than on what some might perceive as a sub-par writing style.--Clampdown33 (talk) 04:43, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
User Phil Berger said, "The sources cited in the article demonstrate that side effects of finasteride have been studied, as is the case with any modern medicine,"
An extremely ignorant and presumptuous comment. Modern medicine doesn't scratch the surface of the known mechanisms of actions and side effects of a drug. Even the Accutane Wikipedia Entry mentions that much of accutane and how it affects a patient isn't known. Here is an article that meets Wikipedia's standards. It explains why side effects from drugs might persist. It's well known that drugs like finasteride cause long terms side effects, the reasons are just now being studied. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987709002916 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gilmour1201 (talk • contribs) 20:28, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not ignorant at all. The fact that side effects have been studied does not mean that there is a recognised syndrome. We have coverage of the side effects of this drug in its article, which is the appropriate place. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:06, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Extremely ignorant Phil. You seem you think you know more than world renowned neuroendocrinologist Dr. Alan Jacobs, who discussed Post Finasteride Syndrome on Anderson Live. Dr. Jacobs has treated hundreds of patients with Post Finasteride Syndrome, and you claim you haven't even heard of finasteride before today. lol.
  • There is a known syndrome called Post Finasteride Syndrome. Dr. Jacobs let the world know Anderson Live. Dr. Irwig studied it his research. That's the point of this Wikipedia entry, to expand people's knowledge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gilmour1201 (talk • contribs) 21:30, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Agree that this syndrome does not appear to be appropriately recognized. The most relevant sources disclose significant biases, and several animal studies that have been discussed ad nauseum (see discussion archive in Finasteride) are also included. The extent that these sources convey is the observance that there are case reports of individuals exhibiting various symptoms, but the specifics (cause, symptoms, incidence) are anything but clearly defined. It doesn't appear that this is even medically classified as a unique condition, let alone one that can actually be named and exist in it's own article. The take-away from these sources (the fact that case reports exist) is already discussed in the finasteride article. If an appropriate PMID containing "post-finasteride syndrome" is available, I would argue that this should exist in it's own section within the finasteride page. Unless there are a significant number of additional sources, this simply doesn't need it's own article.DangerGrouse (talk) 19:56, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Papers published in peer-reviewed journals by leading academics and doctors is 'appropriate' - see the first reference. There are no biasis. Your personal beliefs and/or medical ideas are pointless in comparison. I also already explained above why it needs its own page. Thanks.JacksonKnight (talk) 21:05, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
How about we delete the PSSD wiki page if we're considering deleting the PFS Wiki page then also. They don't have the nearly enough science as PFS and they don't have a non-profit organization or people protesting outside drug companies' buildings demanding SSRI's be taken off the market.68.96.97.46 (talk) 20:01, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep it World famous neuroendocrinologists Dr. Alan Jacobs mentioned the term POST FINASTERIDE SYNDROME in front of millions of people on Anderson Live Anderson Cooper or anyone else didn't question the existence of the syndrome because POST FINASTERIDE SYNDROME is known to exist. The only guy who questions the existence of POST FINASTERIDE SYNDROME is an anonymous internet poster who doesn't know the difference between it's and its. Gilmour1201 (talk) 20:07, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, Wikipedia cannot be used to establish the validity of a syndrome before there is a consensus among experts published in WP:MEDRS-compliant sources. Most thoughtful readers here probably agree it looks like there is some kind of syndrome here. But please understand the limitations of Wikipedia, and what we can and can't do here. If you read and understand WP:SYN and WP:MEDRS you'll probably realise what the issue is here better. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 09:58, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Every single one of the posters posting for delete are in-fact biased. The conditon has been confirmed by Dr. Jacobs, Dr. Irwig and Dr. Traish as is properly and precisely referenced in the article. There are much more ambigious articles currently on wikipedia. This condition is by a huge distance far, far more medically verified than other such articles, therefore this heavy push to have the article deleted needs to be considered as potentially biased or even a direct action of and by Merck employees themselves.--24.227.159.131 (talk) 21:15, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Please nominate the articles you refer to for deletion. This article, presently, does not conform to our policies. Our policies are a little complicated and take a little time to master, but if you read WP:MEDRS, you'll be on your way to understanding the problem here. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 09:58, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is deinitive and purposeful effort behind the scenes to have "this" particular article removed. The reason behind which is obviously to obscure the facts that have been confirmed by multiple doctors and the FDA themselves.--24.227.159.131 (talk) 21:17, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The reason behind the "delete" comments here is explained in each comment. I realise it's more exciting and much easier to understand if you simply attribute it to a Merck conspiracy. But the real explanation is very boring: the article, as it stands, violates our content policies. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 09:58, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment the user DangerGrouse says, The most relevant sources disclose significant biases, and several animal studies that have been discussed ad nauseum. What is not true Have you read the first source? Please, quote where you can see that. The use DangerGrouse seems realy have a problem with counting, as showen here too. He says, there are several animal studies. I only count 2 that even are not important for the article.
  • References 11, 12, 13 and 18 are animal studies. Please do not suggest that I can not count when I have already specifically addressed these in a previous post. If you feel these are not important for the article then you agree that they should not remain.DangerGrouse (talk) 23:09, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This was even one of the hot topic on the World Meeting on Sexual Medicine
I would love to know, why things like the Postorgasmic illness syndrome, Persistent genital arousal disorder or PSSD got their page and PFS, what gets a lot of media attention should be deleted. Can someone please explain me that? The term is used by tousands of people, I think this has now be proven more than often.
All the MD who are talking about this have no clue? Have a look who they are.
Nearly every arguments against this article are untrue or like, There are 20 1/2 animal studies and just adding this WP:MEDRS. What has nothing to do with the article, they can be removed and change nothing. Another is asking for a scoure, and doi or PMID...what easyly can be found in the article referenzes, it´s a ISSN, anyway. Than some posted a abstract and the other is asking if this is a poster...this is realy all very ridiculous. Do people here read the arguments of other? Do the people, who say delet it read realy the sources? This all makes competence of wikipedia (en) and some users very doubtful for me. This artical even has been discussed long ago in german wiki and keeped. So it was proven in the german wikiWP:MEDRS that this article is valid. --Brainbug666 (talk) 21:20, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
German Wikipedia is a seperate project with its own community determined indculsion policies and practices. That an article appears in German Wikipedia does nothing to show that the article or topic meets English Wikipedia standards. (and for all we know, the article in the German Wikipedia doesnt even meet their standards its just that no one but POV pushers are aware of its existance) -- The Red Pen of Doom 19:29, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • None of this is relevant to this discussion. If you have issues with the articles you mentioned, you are free to take it up through the appropriate venues. This isn't about what you feel is fair or just, so please stick to discussing this article specifically.DangerGrouse (talk) 23:14, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No conspiracy, actually. It just fails our content guidelines. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 09:58, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"The "arguments" being made now are simply too ridiculous to be capable of being refuted" Stop the meaningless, troll posts Phil. This is a serious discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.96.97.46 (talk) 21:46, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Perhaps a "Criticisms" sections or "limitations" section would be warranted. But to delete the POST FINASTERIDE SYNDROME article would limit people's knowledge of this serious disease. Gilmour1201 (talk) 21:36, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"There is an extensive such section" No there is not Phil.
I linked to the "adverse effects" section of the article on Finasteride, which constitutes over a quarter of the article. How does it not exist? Phil Bridger (talk) 21:53, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I never said 'the "adverse effects" section of the article on finasteride didn't exist' Philly Billy, so don't bog down the discussion with irrelevant comments. I said, in the POST FINASTERIDE SYNDROME Wikipedia Entry, a section of the limitations of our knowledge about the Syndrome is warranted. For example, why do only a subset of men get affected? - as asked by Dr. Traish in his peer-reviewed article. What epigentics changes in the Androgen Receptor does finasteride bring about to induce the syndrome? 68.96.97.46 (talk) 22:35, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. After reading all the cited studies it is clear that there is a post finasteride syndrome and that finasteride can be devastating to a mans health.
It is hard to understand anyone's agenda for disagreeing with the syndrome or not acknowledging it after reading the cited information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chubbypig (talk • contribs) 22:27, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - the SPA sock-puppetry going on here is absolutely spectacular. We now have 6 different IP editors / SPA new users all in favour of keeping an article created by (you guessed it) yet another WP:SPA. All with the same writing style, same inability to adhere to WP:MOS, same lack of civility and same near-hysterical support for the same (and only) article. Enough for me to go and start an SPI. Just ridiculous. Stalwart111 (talk) 23:10, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Done - Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Brainbug666. Stalwart111 (talk) 23:44, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - There are sufficiently numerous medical articles available and listed on this page to justify the existing of a Wiki on Post-Finasteride Syndrome. Debating whether a statement within the article should exist is a potentially valid but completely separate issue. Doors22 (talk) 23:14, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • To summarize: The term Post-Finasterid Syndrome is used in this article, taken from the frist source
"The mentioned side effects are described as reversible. However in literature a lot of case of persistent sexual adverse symptoms are signaled. The persistence of symptoms after discontinuation is named Post Finasteride Syndrome (PFS)."WP:MEDRS
There is no argument against this.
The term is also used by tousands of male patients and MD´s most of them are the leading in their field. One of them is the chief editor of the journal of sexual medicine and the others are based in a university.
The argument aganist this is, they are all biased. Can someone prove this, some please explian why they are baised or what is the reason they are baised? I dont see any, even the first source. Is that also baised? Why should they be baised? They dont get money for warning people and if, by whom? All I can see is that people, who are against this article are baised also and some can have more good reason to be baised. Or is this wrong?
The term is valid.
The term is also used by the media and used by medical professional there. There are countless newspaper and TV repotrs, about this topic. Just google it.
Is there any agrument against this or can some show that this is not true? no
There are other articles like, Postorgasmic illness syndrome, Persistent genital arousal disorder or PSSD who are on wikipedia and get less attention than PFS and have less valid sources. Or is this untrue?
Can some explain that?
The article about the PFS has been discussed in german wikipedia before and the term was proved and the article is valid.
Any arguments against this?
Arguments against this artilce are poor, everbody who wrote about this topic is baised, only two MD believe that, there are several animal studies inside. some sources are not good and the one talks about the sources that only belongs to public interest, sorry no one will ever write a medical book about a guy who did a hunger strike. So I can not find a medical source for this you will sadly only find this in a newspapers or TV. this is realy ridiculous. --Brainbug666 (talk) 23:22, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree this article should stay. It contains factual data about a recently verified medical condition that appears to be generating a lot of interest in the medical and scientific communities. If anything this article may need to be expanded upon in the future. Definitely a keeper.--99.27.163.166 (talk) 00:37, 5 October 2012 (UTC)BPPH[reply]
  • Medical conditions that have been discredited, such as Morgellons, have lengthy Wikipedia pages. If that's the case, medically accepted diseases such as Post Finasteride Syndrmome, which can be induced by just about any 5-AR Inhibitor, (not just finasteride)certainly warrants its own Wikipedia page. Epigenetics "side effects" from prescription drugs is a hot topic in many scientific fields, and world class research institutions are investigating the problem. Mhttp://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987709002916 Gilmour1201 (talk) 02:09, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Gilmour1201, sorry but this is also no argument. Please, have a look, what wikipedia is and what it is not. It is a encyclopedia that only shows secured knowledge. The term Post-finasteride Syndrome is knowen. It even doesnt matter if this term is used by a smal number of pat. But it matters if this therm is used by literature before what is the case here.

Than the question is, is the Post-Finastide Syndrome of public interest? Yes, because this topic has been very present in the media, what also can be proven in many cases as we can see above. I would love the remind each, who is writing here to read the WP:MEDRS what is wikipedia and what it is not. Sadly this whole discussion is, from the early beginning full with arguments that does not belong to wikipedia. The user, who started this says, this article or this term has been discussed before. So he dont have to read the sources, what is realy wrong. I dont know how or what articles has been used about this topic before. But the sources I used need to me checked and a big point is, if the user dont have the source he need to get it. A source you have to pay for is not against the wiki WP:MEDRS. If some used a book for his aricle he is not responsible to support other users with the book, that they can prove it. This is nothing like I dont what to give out this literature but it has something to to with copyright, I simply can not post here a full text, because I am not a pirate. So if someone wants to prove a source he sadly have to do what everybody else has to do and buy it.

If you dont have the source you can not judge. Some user here simply write the first source is about one patients, what is not true, as you can read above. Many statements done by some users here are wrong. Than finaly a user pops inside and claims, I´m all the users and IP´s that are posting here. Than the IP´s are fom other countrys, now its a army of "meat-puppets" as the user claims. Now everbody who says this article shout keep is a puppet in the eyes of one user. It is the same, like not every user who says, this article should be delet, is a employee of the vendor company. I would be very carefull with such statements cause this is not the place for any conspiracy theories. I´m realy shocked, what is going on here and I´m still waiting for a response to my arguments above. Some people seems to respont very quick with some statements, but if you claim something, please prove this. This whole thing is finaly far behind the good taste and please keep in mind, what wikipedia is and what it is not. Not a place for malicious misrepresentation. Thanks. --Brainbug666 (talk) 08:19, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Brainbug, I implore you to read and digest other user's comments before responding and abstain from going off on tangents so that this discussion can be kept relatively tidy. You don't appear to have understood the fact that Gilmour1201 actually agrees with you and wants to keep this article as it stands. The fact that you are arguing against him indicates that you may not fully be considering what other editors are trying to express. I don't say this to be insulting, but I wanted to highlight this so that this discussion may be productive. DangerGrouse (talk) 16:59, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. There are many problems with this article. It may include copyright violations: the first sentence is identical to the first sentence of this activist web page. Google Scholar and PubMed searches find only one use of the term (the first citation in this article, a short, poorly-written report of a small retrospective study). The article "proves" the validity of the construct by synthesising findings from primary sources, in contravention of WP:OR. That is, the article as it stands fails our policies. All of this can be fixed of course, but once that's done there is nothing left but content already covered very well in our article, Finasteride. This article adds nothing to the encyclopedia except OR and it enlists the encyclopedia in support of one side of ongoing litigation. If you want to achieve recognition of a syndrome, the first place to do it is in reviews in peer-reviewed scholarly literature, professional guidelines, and graduate-level textbooks. Once that's done, we will welcome an article on this putative syndrome, based on those sources. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 08:01, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Anthony, the term is used in literature. It is in the first link. It has been repeated several times. Please read the article and the sources cited before deciding. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gilmour1201 (talk • contribs) 08:27, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've read the article. I'm a very experienced Wikipedia medical article editor. It is my opinion that this article does not meet Wikipedia's policies, and it contains nothing of value to an encyclopedia that is not, or could not be, well covered in Finasteride. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 08:47, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Constant repetition doesn't make it true. It has already been established above that that source is an abstract of a conference paper, not a peer-reviewed article. See [1]. Phil Bridger (talk) 08:49, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you user Anthonyhcole for bringing up some real arguments. May I ask you If you have read and have that small retrospective study? As you say. Please read again what is WP:OR again, we discussed this a time ago in german and this argument even the synthesising findings came also up. this are good arguments. But, again, please read what is secondary literature. This is not OR.It is not synthesising finding, because this term is used in the public by many dif. MD´s, Pat. and so on. Please avoid to rate things in future like saying a "this activist web page" or "putative syndrome"
I dont see where this is a activist web page is that here also activists web page? Well, like I wrote, we discussed this in german before. The results were that this is no synthesising finding and the sources are not OR. Thats why the article was not deleted. can you explain that? OR do you have here other ratings? May be I dont see them, but the things I read here are the same in german. Here are less valid articles like I wrote before, why do you keep them and this here is such a big thing? The things you keep here never would have any chance to be keeped in german. I finaly have one quetsion, to you, who are "we"? I´m a also a member of wikipedia. --Brainbug666 (talk) 09:10, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks user Phil Bridger, first you say you never heard of finasteride before today and now you are very deep inside. What is now true? Again you say things that are not true, this is not only a an abstract of a conference paper. The only fact is that the term is used by medicals and even, when it is used also on a conference this shows even more that this term is in use by MD. figthing about a definition if its a conference paper or a peer-reviewed articleis to funny, you can do this with neraly every article. That makes me wonder, why no one did that at the Postorgasmic illness syndrome? And I´m also very experienced in publ. and what thewy are. Everybody knows, that a study, a paper, article or whatever is done before a conference and while on it. Where it´s later publ. doesnt matter, as long as its publ. But now we are only talking about one article. This article shows that the term is in use and it is not the only thing that shows it. Why dont you sendet so much time for other articles? Anyway article like the 5AR are nearly only OR. --Brainbug666 (talk) 09:48, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, I had not heard of finasteride until I saw this discussion, but I am capable of investigating sources via my university library. We do not base Wikipedia on editors' personal knowledge but on what has been published in independent reliable sources, which, for medicine, are described in WP:MEDRS. And I do spend time on other articles. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:19, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
this is very ridiculous, you keep such a article like the Postorgasmic illness syndrome (just look the first sourcres anyway look all the sources) and here we are discussing about conference papers or peer-reviewed article. But what you are doing here, makes the english wikipedia very dubious for me. --Brainbug666 (talk) 10:09, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you think that article should be deleted then start a deletion discussion and it will be tested against the same policies and guidelines. This discussion is about Post-Finasteride Syndrome. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:19, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
User Phil Bridger there has been a deletion discussion on this article before and has not been tested against the same policies and guidelines. If you would have done a simple klick on it you can see it. Anyway, I still ask myself what are your are you doing in dis discussion anyway, first you say, you never heard of finasteride before and now you seems to know everthing about it. The only thing you do is repeting thing other user said. This sounds for me like a case of "meatpuppetry". Please respont on other arguments.--Brainbug666 (talk) 14:45, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, other Wikipedia articles are irrelevant to this discussion. The previous discussion for Postorgasmic illness syndrome was several years ago, in which time our standards for medical articles have tightened, so if you were to nominate it for deletion now there would be a good chance of a different result. And please lay off the personal attacks. I am in this discussion as a Wikipedia editor working on improving this encyclopedia, not to promote any point of view, and I have had no dicussion with anyone outside this page about this topic. And if you were to read my contributions properly rather than treat this discussion as a battleground you would see that I have not only repeated what others have said. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:39, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Once again, continual repetition doesn't make something true. The only source in an academic journal that mentions Post-Finasteride Syndrome (as opposed to the side effects of finasteride) is an abstract of a conference paper. Such abstracts are not peer-reviewed, and there is no evidence that the paper itself has been accepted for publication. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:39, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • (after edit conflist with the comment below) I have already provided a link above that shows that this is not part of the journal's peer-reviewed content, but a conference paper abstract. Here it is again. If you have access to the full text of that publication you can see that all that was published was the abstract, in a supplement to the main journal listing the 1,169 papers submitted to the 27th Annual Congress of the European Association of Urology with their abstracts. The journal European Urology is peer-reviewed journal, but European Urology Supplements, where this abstract was published, is not. It is really tiresome to have to deal with such filibustering comments that have already been refuted several times in this discussion. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:00, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If wikipedia is universally "just" in its procedures for allowing article content than this article would be proven valid simply by the mere existance of its counter-part on the German Wikipedia http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-finasteride_syndrome (BPPH) --24.227.159.131 (talk) 19:20, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • yes, Phil Bridger, a continual repetition doesn´t make something true. And no, the only source is not only a academic journal(what is by the way not only a abstract) There are many valid sources that proves the existens. The is not only once source as you claim. Saying the other sources are baised can not be proven. The first source only shows that this term is used by science and MD´s. When it is used on a conference, this shows even more that this term is common, for MD´s who work in this field. The leading specialist like Dr. Irwin Goldstein who is the chief editor of the journal of sexual medicine. Used the term, even in public.

Prof. AM Traish Professor of Biochemistry at Boston University School of Medicine uses this term in public, he says: "Our research definitely concludes that PFS is real. For a subset of these men, the damage persists—maybe forever—even after they go off the drug. We don’t fully understand why, but it is as if something shuts off biologically, and stays that way." Prof. Dr. Arthur Burnett Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine and president of the Sexual Medicine Society of North America have spoke about this topic, now tell what kind of authority do you need more? It was even a topic on the The World Meeting on Sexual Medicine. This term is used by the best doctors and most knowen in their field, for them it is a common term. This has been proven. Fot tousands of patients, members of the patients, MD´s, Media and even lawyers this is a common term. The attention even in the media, shows that this article deserves its place on wikipedia what is a encyclopedia. User Phil Bridger, you said you never heard of finasteride before, now you jump on a train and only pick up arguments and adding untrue statements. For me this sound more and more as a case of meatpuppetry. You even where the one, who aded the TEMPLATE for avoiding other´s people, who might have heard of this on other websites, to write here. The weird thing on that is, that you did that long before, all those IP´s started here. why is that so? do you have more information, than you show? What is now true? --Brainbug666 (talk) 18:46, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • redirect to Finasteride and lockitdown. it appears to be a widely enough spread fringe theory that it may be a search term but certainly currently insufficient actual medical evidence and coverage in reliable sources to merit a stand alone article.-- The Red Pen of Doom 19:21, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
yes user 24.227.159.131 What you say its true he is referring to this it is a peer reviewed medical/scientific research Journal. But without having the article he is only referring to the headline of the articles. Fact is it is published in a peer reviewed medical/scientific research Journal. Its so weird to call this article a abstract of a congress. Just klick on the other issues. Anyway the user Phil Bridger only repat what another user wrote (what was the first good and real argument against this entry and should realy be discussed). He does not have the article and says he nver have heard of finasteride before. But like I wrote, we discussed this also in german before and I realy think its importent to discuss such things (and not arguments like someone is baised or not) We came to the conclusion that the first source is in fact valid and this is togther with the other reasons. The fact why this article was keept on the german wiki site.

--Brainbug666 (talk) 19:22, 5 October 2012 (UTC)--Brainbug666 (talk) 19:22, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As I have already stated I do have access to the source in question via a library subscription. Stop lying about me. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:40, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I should point out that I too have access to the abstract you are citing for this syndrome via my university library and I have read it. It is not a strong enough source to support the existence of a syndrome named post-finasteride syndrome, per WP:MEDRS. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 11:08, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • This entire discussion is surrounding the value of the term "Post Finasteride Syndrome" itself. There should be no argument as to if this is, is not a content fork as it clearly is not since the syndrome has been found in fomer users of Avodart, and Accutane. Also the term "Post Finasteride Syndrome" has been used and verified by medical doctors, and scientific institutions in studies published in peer-reviewed Journals such as the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry and the Journal of Sexual Medicine. (BPPH)--24.227.159.131 (talk) 19:28, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Phil. The 'conference abstract' is written by top University Professors in their respective feilds. Theres a good chance they will soon publish something thats meets your criteria in the future (this is not a 'fringe theory'). Will the chance to have a wiki entry on this subject be lost forever if it is deleted now?JacksonKnight (talk) 20:39, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, deletion is not permadelete. If significant coverage in reliable sources becomes available in the future, then an appropriate article can be created even if today it is deleted because there are no such sources. -- The Red Pen of Doom 21:04, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • User JacksonKnight, I think you are mixing something up. We fist discused this article where the term Post-Finasteride is used and if it is a source that fits in the WP:MEDRS. Anyway, this source was publ. in an international peer-reviewed journal devoted to urology. --Brainbug666 (talk) 21:27, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your right Mr. PB, we should probably get rid of the article because the term Post Finasteride Syndrome wasn't used in the study itself, only after the studies publication was the term used by the doctor's who performed the study themselves. So I guess your saying the syndrome doesn't exist? Perhaps you should give Boston University Medical School a call, or George Washington University Medical School.--24.227.159.131 (talk) 20:30, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Phil Bridger says, identify which articles in those journals identify this as a syndrome.
Have a look here again: "However in literature a lot of case of persistent sexual adverse symptoms are signaled. The persistence of symptoms after discontinuation is named Post Finasteride Syndrome (PFS)."
Phil Bridger,please have a look for the definition of a syndrome. As you can see above there is an article 1 that even says, is named Post-Finasteride Syndrome. If you would have a look on the other sources you will see that they all describe the a comblex of symtoms, what is by defenition a syndrome. Anyway, Dr. AM Traish (Boston University) who wrote, with others this article. Says in public: "Our research definitely concludes that PFS is real. For a subset of these men, the damage persists—maybe forever—even after they go off the drug" by Dr. AM Traish
--Brainbug666 (talk) 21:13, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • (after edit conflict) The first of the sources that you linked is the conference paper abstract that I have already discussed ad nauseam above. And it doesn't matter what Dr. Traish might have said elsewhere - it is what he has published in peer-reviewed journals that counts. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:25, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
User Phil Bridger, what you call the whole time a "the conference paper abstract" what is is totaly wrong is publ. in a peer-reviewed journal.--Brainbug666 (talk) 21:31, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have explained that perfectly clearly above. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:32, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you would have a look at WP:SYN and WP:V you would see that you are barking up the wrong tree and not presenting anything that changes how we should be assessing this article. -- The Red Pen of Doom 21:20, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • BrainBug, in which peer-reviewed journal did Traish publish the assertion, "Our research definitely concludes that PFS is real. For a subset of these men, the damage persists—maybe forever—even after they go off the drug"? Did any other authors respond to that assertion in that or another journal? If you're quoting something he said in an interview or elsewhere, it has no weight here. None. None. Researchers frequently hyperbolise about the strength of their theories in a way they never could under peer review. That's why we rely on peer reviewed publications. See WP:MEDRS. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:44, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. The essence of good Wikipedia-writing is mastery of sources. In medical article-writing that's mastery of WP:MEDRS. Until an author fully understands and applies this in their writing here, they will fail. You may write a very good article, but until it conforms to our sourcing guidelines, it's not a Wikipedia article. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 10:57, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. As others have said, there's no mention of this term in PubMed; I checked the NHS Clinical Knowledge Summaries database and there's nothing there either.[2] As other editors have mentioned, this term appears to be mainly promoted by an advocacy group and a handful of doctors; until it features in peer-reviewed journal articles I don't believe that it warrants an article. Pondle (talk) 11:36, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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