Talk:John List (murderer)

Westfield

"The Trivia section says: "John List lived in Westfield." I don't get it -- what is remarkable about this?"

Only that Westfield is an upscale suburb, and most people think that rich people don't have any problems. Someone anihilating their entire family in one of these types of towns is considered shocking and unheard of. That only occurs in poorer neighborhoods <sarcasm>.

The Trivia section says: "John List lived in Westfield." I don't get it -- what is remarkable about this? Is there some subtle play on words...? Dogosaurus 07:25, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Ceiling

Tiffany glass ceiling was in the ball room

re: the tiffany glass ceiling, its probably not Tiffany & Co, but Tiffany Studios, which is the company that produced the famous glass. Lewis Comfort Tiffany was the founder of Tiffany Studios; his father was the founder of Tiffany & Co.18.173.1.81 17:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Mental illness

Is it possible that he was suffering from a mental disorder himself?

Trivia

Trivia: "Usual Suspects?" Really? Are you sure? 24.131.12.228 17:45, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

"List's story bears some resemblance to that of Keyser Soze from the American film The Usual Suspects, though it is unclear if this is intentional or not." I can't think of one reason why. I've now removed it Pennywisepeter 11:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

A personal note...

When List and I were in jail together in 1989, one of the corrections officers had a habit of saying, "Hey, John, how's the family?" every time he walked past List's cell. This was while List was still using the "Bob Clark" alias, before he acknowledged his actual identity to me. List showed little emotion in response to the C.O.'s taunting. He usually would respond by saying, "My name is Robert Clark," and go back to whatever he was doing.

We did eventually discuss his crime, to some extent, often talking around it more so than about it. He once said to me, "Richard, I know the biggest question you won't ask me is why I did it. All I can say is that at the time, it all seemed to make sense to me." But when I asked him when it stopped making sense, he didn't answer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.14.50.29 (talk) 03:26, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I am the same author who wrote the above segment.

Once upon a time, this article contained an account, written by myself, of how John revealed his actual identity to me. It's since been edited out, which I understand, seeing as how it's unverified. What happened was that John (as Bob Clark) and I started talking about our respective experiences in the military, and I mentioned that perhaps his military records could prove his innocence (as they would have taken his fingerprints).

John got very serious when I mentioned that, I suppose realizing that his fingerprints would seal the case against him rather than exonerate him. It was shortly afterwards that he admitted to me that he was John List. To my knowledge, I was the first person to whom he admitted his identity and his guilt.

I always considered John to be an enigma. He seemed a mild-mannered, pleasant old man, of apparently deep religious faith; and yet not only the acts of his crimes, but also the years he spent concealing them, speak of a certain sociopathy.

In fact, were it not for the intentionality of his actions after the crime, I'd be inclined to believe his crimes were the result of a psychotic break. But even after his sentencing, in his letters to me while we were serving our respective sentences (in different prisons), he never really seemed to accept moral responsibility for his crimes, even while acknowledging the facts of his actions.

Merge

John Emil List doesn't actually add new information; I don't think a merge and redirect would be too controversial. Deadsalmon 08:24, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Redirected. 68.39.174.238 00:51, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Falling Down

"In the film Falling Down, the main character played by Michael Douglas is found to pretend to drive to work long after being fired from a position as an engineer in a defense contract company. This is very similar to a habit of List's, when after being fired as a bank VP, he would drive to a train station and take the train several stops to give the illusion of still being employed."

I'm not saying the person who wrote the screenplay of this movie didn't base these actions on List, but it's not the first time that someone pretending to be still employed has happened or been depicted in fiction. Usually the person doing it is depicted as being unstable, if not actually mentally ill or a substance abuser, or else they had been fired for something like embezzlement which they were not prosecuted for and which they were afraid to tell their spouse about. I listen to a lot of old time radio from the 1950's and remember at least one show where this happened--I wish I could remember which one it was, and if I do hear it again I'll come back and post it in here. I think there have been TV episodes in the 1960's where someone did this--hopefully someone else will remember one. Also in the play "The Glass Menagerie" by Tennesee Williams, written in the 1940's, I believe, the character Laura drops out of business college but is afraid to tell her mother, so she goes out every day as if she's going to college.

There was an episode of The Flintstones where Fred lost his job and pretended to go to work. Sitting on a bench, he meets another man who has been doing the same thing. The punchline comes when the other man admits he's been doing this for several years. Illogically, with his wife none the wiser.Just1thing (talk) 22:18, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Why is Barney Tracy not mentioned?

He was crucial to the case.

Something a little personal...

My father had dated John List's daughter when he was a child. He told me that John used to chase him out of the house if he brought a guitar over because he felt that music was from Satan. He also told me that they really didnt have any furniture in the house and that John's mother was pretty much the same way when it came to religion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Carbon star (talk • contribs) 01:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC).

Dead?

i think he has recently died in prison. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.49.205.72 (talk) 04:05, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

you have no evidence which supports that... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quaked (talk • contribs) 03:22, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

John List passed away today, March 21, 2008. He died while undergoing medical treatment at a prison medical facility in Trenton, New Jersey. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dgslate (talk • contribs) 22:27, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, "medical treatment" can be a bitch.

The announcement was put out on the AP wire yesterday.~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeanie821 (talk • contribs) 14:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Time until discovery of murder

I reference this line in the intro: "He had planned everything so meticulously that nearly a month passed before anyone noticed that anything was amiss." Having read Thou Shalt Not Kill, it should be noted somewhere (not sure where, since I'm a wikipedia newbie) that the family lived a very sheltered life; rarely venturing out except to church every Sunday. Another reason, other than meticulous planning, that it took so long for the murders to be discovered is that they didn't talk to any of their neighbors, and vice versa. His neighbors pretty much thought he was a strange duck (mowing his lawn in a 3-piece suit, for example) and after attempting to socialize with the family and being rebuffed, they gave up. The police were called once prior to the discovery; the neighbors were concerned about the lights being on night and day. The police cased the area and left thinking nothing was wrong. The person who called the police the second time was daughter Patty's music teacher. I apologize for forgetting names and other details; I no longer have the book and it's been a good 15 years since I've read it. Maybe someone else could fill in the details of the discovery better than I could. 71.205.1.189 (talk) 11:56, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The bust of List

Just wondering if anyone would be able to add a photo of the bust alongside a photo of List as there is a massive chunk of text describing it, but it would be nice if a visual could be added too. Sky83 (talk) 10:34, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Here's one: http://www.trutv.com/graphics/photos/criminal_mind/forensics/hans_vorhauer/5-1-John-List-bust-compared.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.69.231.18 (talk) 02:29, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I went to the link just above, and that's an old photo (1971?) of List. There was a remark (on Forensic Files program on what was then Court TV?) from a detective to the effect that the bust was so well done it looked like List himself was the model. So we're still lacking a side-by-side visual comparison of John List in 1989 with that bust. Forgot to add that Frank Bender, who (in consultation with forensic psychologist) made that bust, died recently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 (talk) 18:33, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I have now gone to the TruTV "crime library" site. It includes the John List story, and it says that the photo of list was from 1970 (I said "1971?" above). You can go through that to find what John List looked like near the time of his arrest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 (talk) 14:16, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

PTSD

He was diagnosed with PTSD in 2001 according to the book Born to Spy by Austin Goodrich. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.152.140.93 (talk) 20:13, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Steyr M1912

Based on the photograph in Righteous Carnage (see here, search for "Steyr" and select page 187), the 9mm murder weapon was a Steyr M1912.

The gun is also identified in the caption as a "1918 German 9mm semiautomatic" and on page 117 as being from World War I. This means the 9mm caliber cannot have been 9x19mm Parabellum, as the rechambering to 9x19mm took place in 1938, but must have been 9x23mm Steyr.  --Lambiam 23:07, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Compare with the Romand case

A very similar case (finance problems lead to mass family murder) happened in france (see [1])Sceasary (talk) 12:51, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Question

Has anyone determined the identity of the entity who claimed his body and buried him next to his mother?--Two way time (talk) 05:39, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

2nd wife

OK, I am seeing: Delores Clark (Miller), married 1985- I was thinking of editing in "2008 (his death)" but don't know if I'd be getting into privacy issues. It's a good question (subject to being left unanswered because of privacy issues) what became of Delores after the arrest of the man who turned out to be John List, not Bob Clark. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 (talk) 18:30, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I have placed "(Miller)" ahead of "Clark", because that's the form I have commonly seen over the years to account for the surname used by the bride up to the time of the marriage. Obviously, "Clark" is provided because the groom was using the name Bob Clark at that time. There is a "?" now provided for the ending of the marriage; I was not involved in putting it in, but rest assured I think it is **OK**. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.20 (talk) 14:27, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Himself in addition to or instead of his immediate family?

Notice the Connie Chung interview of 2002. She asked John List why he had not killed himself. Does this mean killing himself in addition to **OR** instead of his immediate family? There were 2 cases very close together in time and distance (central Maryland, April 2009) where a man killed his wife, his children, and himself, prompting a pastoral outreach from the Catholic Archdiocese of Baltimore. (Those 2 men were Christopher Wood and William Parente.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 (talk) 15:19, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Never expressed any remorse?

Under the "Arrest and Trial" section it says "List never expressed any remorse for his crimes". This is categorical and gratuitous. How would anyone know? The truth is, on page 80 of his autobiography "Collateral Damage", List writes "I wish I had never done what I did. I've regretted my action and prayed for forgiveness ever since". That sounds like "remorse" to me. PaulOCPDmanager (talk) 01:28, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

The no remorse statement is unreferenced, while the remorse statement is. It will be corrected. This article also needs reference restructuring, which I will try to get to later. Doc talk 04:25, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

 Done Doc talk 19:52, 17 April 2013 (UTC)