Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Independent Baptist College

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus; default to keep. Johnleemk | Talk 14:43, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Independent Baptist College

This is an ad for Baptist schools and is unencyclopedic. Any relevant data should be merged with Independent Baptist, otherwise it is not neccessary to promote Baptist schools and explain that Baptist schools deal with Baptist beliefs. Of course, if you get a strictly Baptist education at a Baptist college, your career oppotunities are going to be limited to the Baptist ministry; no need to have an article listing schools to explain that. Unless more information is added to make this article informative, it should be deleted. Arbustoo 03:06, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Arbustoo 01:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. --Ardenn 03:13, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per above. At the least, it's NPOV, as per the tag. --Kinu 03:25, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep or Merge the nomination states, "Of course, if you get a strictly Baptist education at a Baptist college, your career oppotunities are going to be limited to the Baptist ministry," however a reader might not know that this is the education offered at these schools without this article. Plenty of "affiliated" institutions are accredited and offer comprehensive educations. It's not a good article, but it could be useful if edited. --djrobgordon 07:53, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is the Bible college article, the List of Bible colleges, and the Independent Baptist article that mentions all the schools/groups affilated, which already cover that. Arbustoo 09:27, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom -- Thesquire (talk - contribs) 22:20, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: The nominated article does not read like an ad. It describes post-secondary education related to a "denomination", similar (though not identical) to a Jesuit education. See Association of Jesuit Colleges and Universities. —ERcheck @ 22:21, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, it does not describe "post-secondary education related to a denomination." In fact, if you read it carefully "independent Baptist" simply means "independent" of main Bapitist ministry. Therefore, this article encompasses any broad Christian/fundamentalist/Baptist, as the article notes with "Bob Jones University"-- which is not Baptist. The Jesuit education article is a good one that describes a particular denomination. This article does not describe a denomination. My assertation is that the article is so broad it is worthlessly undescriptive since "independent" Baptist is NOT a denomination. The Jesuit article is perfect criteria to follow and this article falls far short of that. Arbustoo 04:29, 5 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I don't the article is in very good shape right now, and it needs cleanup, but I think the subject has possibilities and this article isn't a bad starting point. —Cleared as filed. 22:42, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How about a merge with Independent Baptist? Arbustoo 02:26, 5 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, but a merge decision has nothing to do with deletion, because you can't merge an article without keeping it. A redirect has to remain so the history of the article is available per the GFDL license. —Cleared as filed. 05:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with List of Independent Baptist Colleges as an explanation of what distinguishes this group of colleges from other Baptist colleges. H2O 20:50, 5 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. Stifle 02:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep If I can't nominate a Catholic or Jewish high school without getting grief I sure as heck ain't going to let them delete a system of Protestant colleges Ruby 03:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. I see no evidence that these college actually refer to themselves as "Independent Baptist Colleges", let alone other sources; or that any association links them at all. Melchoir 08:07, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep and clean up. I see nothing POV in the article, although I see bad writing and editing. Logophile 10:23, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't see POV either, and it wouldn't be a reason for deletion. However, this article appears to concern a completely non-existent concept. Melchoir 20:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on clean up edits: Logophile, your edits are exactly why this is nominated. You reinserted the Bob Jones University claim. BJU is not Baptist. BJU is fundamentalist Christian, which can encompass Baptists, but the school doesn't strictly profess to be Baptist, let alone "independent Baptist." Once again, this article is a non-existent topic. Arbustoo 07:14, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - looking at Ministry (talk · contribs) this seems like more Gastroturfing. Just zis Guy, you know? ^[T]/_[C] 11:21, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Sure does. Arbustoo 04:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom and JzG, more Gastroturfing. --Malthusian (talk) 11:42, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep It's poorly written and of rather dubious origins, but as of the lastest edit, I don't really see anything warrenting deletion. I'd rename the article Independent Baptist Colleges though. At least it isn't another article about a private elementary school.--Isotope23 18:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- I see plenty warranting deletion: WP:V and WP:NOR. Melchoir 20:07, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Merge with Bible college which is, I believe, the more common term. Fishal 21:28, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
- A Bible college is different than the Independent Baptist Colleges. A Bible college generally would have a much narrower curriculum, with more specific training for ministerial careers. The colleges described in this article, while preparing most for ministerial careers, may offer a broader education, providing a independent Baptist setting and also providing other areas of study - for example Tennessee Temple University offers a majors in biology and in mathematics. —ERcheck @ 22:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - Where are you getting this information? Melchoir 23:18, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    - Comment not meant to be controversial. I did a review of some of Bible colleges offerings of majors and then offerings of of independent Baptist colleges (IBC). Some of the IBCs are "Bible" colleges, while some have more general offerings. Point was that there is a difference. Some IBC are Bible colleges, while some are not. The "Bible colleges" terminology that I am referencing is that being used in the Wikipedia article Bible college. —ERcheck @ 00:58, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      - I find no evidence on Google that such a thing as an "Independent Baptist College" even exists. You seem to have information I'm not aware of, and I'm genuinely curious. How do you determine what is an IBC and what isn't? Is it your personal judgement or what? Melchoir 01:31, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        I did a Google search on <Independent Baptist College>. The third entry was http://bn66.com/churches/schools.html. Google search on <Independent Baptist> provides a number of sites with links. —ERcheck @ 01:37, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        See, my problem is, I've clicked on a bunch of those links, and most of the schools do not identify themselves as "independent" anything. West Coast and Crown do call themselves "Independent Baptist College", but how do we know what that means to them? With the AJCU there's a verifiable thread connecting the schools; here, I see no such tool. Without some kind of secondary literature specifically addressing Independent Baptist Colleges, I don't see how we can write an article here. Melchoir 01:47, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Exactly. Arbustoo 04:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. I have no problem with each school having and article, but this one is not needed. 03:15, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Keep Does this not come under the wikipedia schools policy? Jcuk 08:01, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The school thing is not a walled garden from WP:V (although admittedly AfD discussions like the first one for Genius home collegiate school suggest precedent for otherwise). --Malthusian (talk) 09:09, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Not really the same thing, since a lot of these are unaccredited "schools" offering degress which have no formal status, taught by people who graduated from the same (or in some cases were simply given the degrees in recognition of their mission work). A lot of this is Gastroturfing. - Just zis Guy, you know? ^[T]/_[C] 09:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, useful topic. Nothing to do with schools, this is a type of tertiary education institution, not as religiously-focused as a "bible college" (mentioned above) but not secular like an ordinary university. --bainer (talk) 08:09, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And often not accredited like an ordinary university either :-) - Just zis Guy, you know? ^[T]/_[C] 09:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Informative entry. --Chuck Hastings 17:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See Chuck_Hastings (talk · contribs)

~~Meatpuppet~~ sockpuppet of Jason Gastrich. [1] Also second edit ever on Wikipedia is this vote.Arbustoo 20:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

keep please it is helpful and important too Yuckfoo 19:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am willing to bet Jason Gastrich sent you here like on the other AfDs. Please explain what is "helpful" about it, that is, what criteria is it describing? How many schools mentioned in the article actually define themselves as "Independent Baptist" (I know the answer)? The how many call themself an "Independent Baptist College"(different from the previous question)? Explain how/why this is "important"? What is the criteria (other than the name) for an "Independent Baptist College," no one has said this and its absent from the article. Arbustoo 20:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete or Merge with List of Independent Baptist Colleges David D. (Talk) 19:54, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Merge or Delete as per David D. Harvestdancer 21:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.