Talk:Redneck/Archive 5

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Definition of redneck

The first paragraph should say what redneck is, but it doesn´t. It only states that the term is a pejorative stereotype and defines its geographical area of usage, which is fine. But I guess most of us readers (specially those like me, who live neither in the U. S. nor in Canada) would like to know, since the first paragraph, that the term initially refered in a pejorative way to white poor people from the southern United States, and afterwards extended to white rural people from the whole nation and provinces of Canada. That piece of information should be, as a matter of fact, the first one of the whole article. Infrasonik 19:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

• That's a fair point... so why not be bold and make the edit? When you do, please cite a source. If you're not sure how to do that, post the information about your source here and we can help. --Clubjuggle 20:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. To tell you the truth, I´m not quite sure my posted definition of redneck is the right one. It is what I gathered from reading this article and some additional info outside the Wikipedia site. My point is to depict, from the beginning, the ethnic group the term refers to; and, since I'm not sure, I guess I'll leave the being bold part to someone else. At least, for now. Thanks again, anyway. Infrasonik 22:17, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

From what I've read and heard, the term "redneck" has a somewhat different connotation in England and South Africa than it does in America. This is briefly mention in the article, but perhaps it should be expanded upon? Gringo300 05:34, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

In response to earlier questions, now I'm not sure if the terms "the American West" and "the American East" would be defined in the same way in a modern context as they would be in the context of the 1800's. The whole issue may be far more complex than I had previously thought. Gringo300 23:40, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

We need to distinguish between the origins of the term "redneck" and its present day meaning. Today the term is used (in the US) to mean either (1)a manual worker of European ancestry who hails from a rural or southern place, or (2) any American of European ancestry who expresses (or is suspected of holding) the views and attitudes that are associated with a certain stereotype of rural and southern white workers. It is a put-down, like "n-----," except that it includes class snobbery as well as a racial element. It's most popular among people who are insecure about their own social position. Thefactis (talk) 16:20, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

From my experience, #2 is the most commonly-used definition. #1 sounds more like a "hick" or "hillbilly." 71.205.170.70 (talk) 16:16, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

The first definition is inaccurate, at least the part about being a manual worker.--Flash176 (talk) 17:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

For those in British Columbia it refers to Albertans, because their province tends to be socially conservative, while BC tends to be socially liberal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.157.119.71 (talk) 04:36, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Family Guy Influence?

Family Guy had an episode recently poking fun at rednecks. mention it somewhere please. --• Storkian • 01:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Dude every show pokes fun at rednecks. Family Guy's not exactly the first, although that show has an unusually negative view of the South... Gtbob12 (talk) 20:30, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

thanks to whoever cited me on "... blunt definition" (first paragraph part) but

I had more information but I thought it would sound too blunt and negative and would defy the neutrality laws of wikipedia. this is probably a word that is not a complete definition since it is being changed by pop culture. for example, jihad means struggle to perfect one's soul but its commonly misinterpreted as killing infidels for the will of allah. the second one sounds negative and ughhh right? whoever cited me please make my "tone" a little less blunt. --• Storkian • 03:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Source of the term

My understanding is that the term came from the Battle of Blair Mountain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain —Preceding unsigned comment added by 9gates9 (talk • contribs) 16:10, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Correct. The confronting miners wore red bandannas around their necks, and a local newspaper first coined the term "redneck." --John R. Sellers (talk) 05:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Geography

It's actually hillbillies that were originally limited to Appalachia and the Ozarks. Redneck originally mostly referred to the Deep South, as a laborer down there would be the most likely to get a "red neck". Gtbob12 (talk) 20:29, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Somebody changed my edit back. I am pretty sure that people in South Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, North Florida and East Texas have been called rednecks pretty much as long as the word has existed. At the very least, the spread of the word to the Deep South is nowhere near as recent as the spread of the word to the rest of the country. I'm changing it again, and anyone who changes it back better have a source. A source, that not only proves that the word originated to describe people in Appalachia, but also that the spread of the word to the South was as recent as the spread of the word to the rest of the country. The term was originally used to describe the Scots-Irish, but the Scots-Irish make up the largest share of white people in most of the Deep South as well as in Appalachia, it's just not as prominent because of the large black population. Common sense would even say that the Deep South would make the most sense, as it is hotter, the sun is stronger, and the work tends to be in the open sun rather than in a mine. Also, many of the people who this article names as important rednecks, for instance Hank Williams, come from the flat, black belt south. Gtbob12 (talk) 13:40, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

This is not the place for "pretty sure". You are correct that the term was applied to the Scots-Irish. That is because the English had applied that term to Presbyterians since the Covenanters wore red scarves on their necks. And I'm "pretty sure" that King James the VI of Scotland ascended to the English throne and tried to merge the Scottish Presbyterians and English Anglicans in his newly United Kingdom just a wee bit before anyone of European descent lived in South Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, North Florida and East Texas. Just as I am "pretty sure" that the migration of the Scots-Irish proceeded southward along the Appalachian frontier to Georgia just as it proceeded westward to Kentucky, Tennessee, and Texas. Which isn't too surprising since that is follows the order in which those parts of the country was settled! But you think that because the sun is hotter in the South, you must be right. And you demand anyone correcting you have a valid source. Perhaps you should try staying out of the sun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.20.246.161 (talk) 03:10, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

The Hippie Era (Counter-culture movement) and the modern use of the term "Redneck".

To answer inquiries as to why the above titled section is no longer part of the article, I copied here the discussion/talk how that came about. Basically, I just got tired of anonymous user 155.85.58.253 deleting all my work. If anybody else wants to take up the cause, here is the information as well as the deleted papagraph. TheGrandPubah (talk) 22:54, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

After I wrote the following, I did a more thorough read of the Redneck article and references. It is way too complex and falls short in trying to understand the use of the term and it's origins. Many of the historical references do not even mention the word redneck, but refer to poor white class people in various forms. The only credible reference to connect how the word may have come about to be used today is the West Virginia miners strike in 1921 and the use of red handkerchiefs. This does not explain the spread of the term to other poor rural people. There is no connection shown in literature or other references. I am now convinced that the Hippies revived and coined this word as stated above in the 1960's. It has no record of modern usage between 1921 and that time. There are many other words in use today that were originated in the 50's-60's that few people know how they were first used. Redneck is also one of these. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheGrandPubah (talk • contribs) 06:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

This is revised version of discussion for article use: The Hippie Era (Counter-culture movement) and the modern use of the term "Redneck". In the 1960's to early 70's "Hippies" or "freaks" 1 as they were also known helped to popularize the modern use of the word "Redneck" as a slur. Hippies, due to their long hair, outlandish clothing, and association with the peace movement, were the target of extreme hatred by rural white conservatives. Popular music of the time reflects the tension between the two groups. (See lyrics "Up Against the Wall Redneck Mother" (1971) [13] and "Uneasy Rider" by Charlie Daniels (1972)[14]) The word "Redneck" was used by the Hippie as a slur because short hair gave no protection from the sunlight, causing the neck to become red. Also a red neck was seen as a sign of an angry/enraged person in contrast to the peace/love movement. The slur "Redneck" was used in retort to the freak/hippie being called a "dirty long-haired hippie". Any persons, despite geographic location, were referred to as being "Redneck" by the Hippies if they exhibited hatred for them or dislike for long hair. This caused the term to spread to many people groups and geographic areas. The word "Redneck" being used as a slur by Hippies began to change after 1972. This was caused by long hair becoming more accepted in rural communities. The rise of Southern Rock helped popularize long hair among rural youth. Country and western stars of the South (such as Willie Nelson) also began to grow longer hair making it more accepted. (See "The Hippie and the Redneck can be Friends" [15] and the "Mullet" hairstyle [16] ) As the popularity of long hair increased, the use of "redneck" as a slur for people who hated those with long hair decreased. The end of the Hippie era saw the final demise of the word being used in this way and the term Redneck continue to evolve in comedy a and popular culture. TheGrandPubah (talk) 16:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

The above Redneck/Hippie section deleted by user 155.85.58.253

User talk:155.85.58.253 Hi, This is GrandPubah, I noticed you deleted what you called the "anecdotal hair section" from Redneck. This is a very important part of history. There is no other reference to the importance of the Hippie culture and the term Redenck in the entire piece. I would not mind any changes or improvements but to just delete such an important part of this subject is just vandalism. If you read my references in the piece you would see this is not "anecdotal" in any way. If it were not for this part of history the term Redneck would not be in use today. TheGrandPubah (talk) 23:29, 15 May 2008 (UTC) [edit]Redneck/Hippie

A passage of this length tends to overpower the article, perhaps it deserves its own article, or perhaps should be part of an article entitled, "Hair, Politics, and Culture in the United States" Thanks, 155.85.58.253 (talk) 08:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC) There is also no mention of redneck on the "Hippie" page. Article should be about what something is, rather than what they are not. I will help you write a "hair, politics, and culture" article if you like. Cheers, 155.85.58.253 (talk) 09:02, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Redneck/Hippie section again deleted by user 155.85.58.253

To User 155.85.58.253 Thank you for your comments. I must disagree with the removal of the entire paragraph. Without this knowlege (or something similar) it is not possible to understand what the stereotype of redneck was and how it evolved. It is much more than about "hair", but actually liberalism and conservatism. The redneck in the 60's and early 70's was typically ultra conservative. This changed as the counter-culture influences were gradually accepted. For example, the article states that ""Free Bird" and "Sweet Home Alabama" by Lynyrd Skynyrd are considered "redneck anthems." This was far from true when "Okie from Muskogee" was the original redneck anthem. Something happened to change redneck society, and the article does not presently address that issue. A stereotypical redneck in 1970 would be very different than the one today. Not only in hair, but in dress, music, habits, politics, etc. I tried to get all of this over in a very short paragraph. It does focus on hair somewhat, but the references bring out the other differences. Hair was very important to the redneck for some reason, enough to cause the redneck to beat up people with long hair. You mention there is no reference to redneck in the hippie article. If hippies went around beating up people with short hair I am sure there would be a reference. In any event, I will not get into an edit war with you. I guess the old hippie in me doesn't want to fight about it. I think if you study my references you will agree that the subject needs to be addressed in some form in the article. I will leave that up to you. Peace TheGrandPubah (talk) 15:34, 16 May 2008 (UTC

Redneck/Hippie section deleted final time by 155.85.58.253

redneck: current usage (California and Illinois)

In my experience, redneck is what liberals and leftists call conservatives. The term is derogatory and is often implied rather than pronounced outright. Its derogatory meaning is "uncouth, uncultured." However, it seems to me it no longer has any connection with not going to church, heavy drinking, being from the American South or originally from Scotland. Nowadays, it is those who do go to church, particularly to evangelical church, that are called rednecks. It still retains some connection with being white and Christian, rural, and maybe to a tiny extent with short hair. This usage seems to come directly from the hippie/redneck opposition. Just like many conservatives call every liberal or leftist a hippie, so many liberals or leftist call every conservative a redneck. One might be a highly educated person, a professor, have an excellent family, travel around the world, love modern art, have long hair, live in a city, be an atheist, but still be called a redneck, and therefore supposedly uncouth and uncultured, just because one votes Republican.

Also, describing people with very long strings of adjectives is considered a redneck thing.

My experience, from Illinois and Southern California. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.85.82.124 (talk) 23:17, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Really......http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh4pPdkrlqw-- Htgrgwwew (talk) 02:23, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

redneck: an etymology (right or wrong)

I always understood that it was a term used to describe the Blair Mining Company altercation of the 1920s in Kentucky or Tennessee, at which time the miners traditionally wore red neck kerchiefs. Maybe not so, but; it feels right to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.163.254.84 (talk) 09:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Thats what I thought too. And I think thats what it actually is. Im a redneck and proud! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.116.226.96 (talk) 19:51, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Disambiguation link

The link to redneck(stereotype) from disambiguation page is broken for me, and I have no idea how to fix it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.23.109 (talk) 18:52, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Something was wrong with it, but whatever it was, a null edit fixed it. Not sure just what was wrong, but it appears to be functional now. - TexasAndroid (talk) 19:44, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

The "Celtic" Thesis

In recent years the self-identification of US citizens as being "Scotch-Irish", "Scots-Irish" and "Ulster Scots" has risen dramatically.

We need to be careful when dealing with these kinds of ethnicity-driven trends. There are several issues of reliability here.

(1) As has been conclusively shown before in the USA, many people identify themselves as "Irish-American" on a faulty basis. When dealing with 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th (and beyond) generations, the ancestry is often more invented than actual, and based on such flimsy beliefs as a surname ending with "Mc" or "Mac" is Irish. A famous pop culture example is that of Robert De Niro and Jack Nicholson - as far as their genealogy shows, both have equal amounts of Italian and Irish heritage, however one "identifies" more with his Italian heritage (De Niro) and the other with his Irish heritage (Nicholson).

(2) Mainstream books published on these types of issues are more often that not of academically-questionable merits. They may be published by big houses, and they may sell many copies, but their "contribution" to the area of study amongst scholarly circles is often very little to none.

(3) Nationalist/Racist/Sectarian motives for portraying an "ethnicity" or cultural group in a certain way. Irish Nationalists have had great fun highlighting the thesis that the term "Redneck" may have been some reference to Ulster-Scot Presbyterianism. Likewise, Anglo-Saxon supremacists have taken delight in the view of McWhiney and others that these uncivilized, violent Appalachians are/were in fact Celtic in nature, and nothing to do with the civilized English Southerners.

The main problem I have with the "Historical Usage" section is that it restates antiquated racial determinist and 19th century anthropology which by today's philosophical and scientific standards are considered ludicrously racist (Alpine-Celtic people are bracycephalic and therefore have smaller brain capacities than the dolichocephalic Anglo-Saxon Germanics, etc).

In other words, there's no real evidence, no actual reliable statistical data to support the "Celtic Thesis" that has been either rejected or ignored by the academic establishment (see Berthoff, Walley, etc)

I'm going to go ahead and attempt a major re-write to try and provide some balance. Ledenierhomme (talk) 17:26, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your assessment of the "Celtic Thesis" and I understand your disdain for some of the mainstream books that represent history like the etch-a-sketch represents art. But all the nonsense that has been printed does not change the origin of the word, redneck. The Convenanters were called rednecks because of the red scarves the wore on their necks. Eventually, the English came to apply this term to Presbyterians in general, but especially to the more devout. Large numbers of Convenanters from the southwestern lowlands of Scotland (not a Celtic society) migrated to the Ulster plantations in the mid 1600's. One hundred years later, there was a substantial migration of these Scots from Ulster to the American colonies. Since the land along the coast was settled, the Scots-Irish pushed out to the frontier in search of land. They invented the log cabin. They fought the natives. They pushed the frontier westward. In very many ways, their culture was very different from the English or German settlers. They located their houses far apart instead of clustering them in towns as did the English settlers. Since their language was the Ulster dialect of Scots, they spoke funny. They called their children youngins, they called their food, vittles, and their meals, fixins. Their word for gossiping or story-telling was cracking and so the friends they spent time with were their fellow crackers. Because they were Presbyterian, the English settlers called them rednecks. In a nutshell, there is a direct ethnic connection to the words, redneck and cracker. And while there is a basis for some of the sterotypes our society associates with "rednecks", there is no justification for it. Many of the characteristics of speech that we have associated with ignorance are nothing more that cultural differences in dialect. Many of the beliefs, mannerisms, and values that we consider backward, rural, or "redneck" are reflections of the heritage of a distinct culture that has existed for hundreds of years. If you are interest is well-researched, reasoned writings about the differing cultures that have contributed to the American culture, I suggest Leyburn's "The Scotch-Irish: A Social History" and Herman's "How the Scots Invented the Modern World and Everything In It."

Any attempt to establish a singular ethnic or cultural origin of the "Rednecks" going to be speculative due to the lack of appropriate census data from the period of settlement, which grouped all European settlement until the title of "White" (http://www.arc.gov/index.do?nodeId=2313), and the The Appalachian Regional Commission continues to do so.

That is incorrect. There have been exhaustive studies on the pattern of settlement by almost every group of our early settlers. The origin of the word is one of the very few aspects of this article that is not entirely speculative and a matter of opinion.

The self-reported statewide figures from the national US census for the archetypal states of Kentucky and Alabama are as follows:

Kentucky - American (20.9%), German (12.7%), Irish (10.5%), English (9.7%), African American (7.8%);

Alabama - African American (26.0%), American (17.0%), English (7.8%), Irish (7.7%), German (5.7%), and Scots-Irish (2.0%)

Not much help, you will agree, considering that the majority simply report "American" as their ancestry (and, some would argue, so it should be). - Ledenierhomme (talk) 18:09, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Current self-reported figures indicate only how ignorant individual Americans are today of their ancestry. But that has nothing to do with the mid 1700's when the term, redneck, was first used in the colonies.

A user has countered that Walley's debunking of McDonald and McWhiney's research is mistaken, because of the specific example of Greene County is "coastal" as opposed to "hill or mountain" country.

1) Then surely the "Redneck" character is then determined by geography, and not Ulster-Scot heritage.

2) It undermines the stated argumentation either way, as you are questioning McWhiney's "research" (use of Greene County to prove a "Celtic" origin), in which case you may as well delete the whole section. Ledenierhomme (talk) 02:16, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

The funniest thing is the perceived anti-englishness of the people claiming to be a part of this ethnic group, yet it is well known that the Ulster-Scots people included a huge percentage of people from the English border area, whom despite their own customs and strange dialect of English, are English none the less. 167.1.176.4 (talk) 07:36, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure of your point. Many of the "Scotch-Irish" had English origins, but it's well-documented that they were largely "anti-English" during the American Revolution. Point of original origin doesn't mean anything. George Washington's ancestry was English, as was the ancestry of the bulk of the founders of the United States, but I'm pretty sure they were "anti-English" back in 1776. All that aside, the bulk of the settlers in the South were not "Celtic" in culture, language, or (recent) ancestry. They were English, Lowland Scots, Germans, Huguenots, and various other odds and ends, but not "Celtic". Eastcote (talk) 03:43, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Those are simply political stances. People back then sided with whoever benefitted them more and is really not anything to do with the point i'm making. These rednecks of Scotch-Irish stock, have large amounts of English in them, in somecases i'd bet these individuals will be largely English in ethnicity, i guess the point i'm making is that Irish and English are not the antithesis of each other, people in parts of England right now (in 2009) and thorughout history are and have been poorer than parts of Ireland (and i'm not talking about small amounts) and have more unintelligible accents and dialects as those in Ireland TODAY in 2009. 167.1.176.4 (talk) 13:26, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Article is too general, POV, needs to be focused

This article is all over the place, relying too much on popular sources, with too many sections unsourced and biased. It is far too general, and seems to want to make the case both for rural victimization and heroics. It wanders from trying to relate to history, to a generalized use of the term in the US and Canada. I think it should be confined to the US; then possibly show how Canadians have adopted the term. I don't see the point of identifying slang terms for rural people in other countries. Scots-Irish can be traced in valid historic sources to large colonial settlement in the Appalachian backcountry and uplands of southern colonies - from there the article goes far afield, indiscriminately lumping together rednecks, southerners, rural farmers, farmers on the Great Plains, etc. When editors start trying to show how "rednecks" migrated to other areas, who are they talking about? Rural farmers from both coastal and backcountry areas? Only those from Appalachia? It is much too general.--Parkwells (talk) 16:32, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Walley not applicable

Greene County, Mississippi is a coastal rather than hill or mountain county, and the predominance of Anglo-Saxons in that county is consistent with coastal settlement patterns, therefore discounting Walley's analysis. If this was an upland county, it might have some merit. RegeEtLege (talk) 20:54, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I'll try again...

A user has countered that Walley's debunking of McDonald and McWhiney's research is mistaken, because of the specific example of Greene County is "coastal" as opposed to "hill or mountain" country.

1) Then surely the "Redneck" character is then determined by geography, and not Ulster-Scot heritage.

2) It undermines the stated argumentation either way, as you are questioning McWhiney's "research" (use of Greene County to prove a "Celtic" origin), in which case you may as well delete the whole section. McWhiney brought up Greene County, Walley was just using it as an example - Ledenierhomme (talk) 21:12, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Celtic persons primarily settled uplands while anglo-saxons primarily settled coastal areas. Greene County is obviously coastal. Your argument has no merit. RegeEtLege (talk) 15:14, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

It's not "my" argument, and it shouldn't be YOUR argument either, it's McWhiney's and Walley's argument. What you are ARGUING is your own original research. "Celtic persons" and anglo-saxons. What do you know of "Celtic persons"? I'm guessing your American, and probably don't know any "Celtic persons", but the Ulster-Scots weren't/aren't - they speak/spoke English, were/are loyal to the Crown of England, and display[ed] English symbols. "Celtic persons" settled in the big East Coast cities (Gaelic-speaking Catholic Irish in Boston, NY, Phil, etc). This "thesis" is pop history THEORY, not academically-supported historical fact. Please refrain from deleting source materials. Both arguments deserve to be heard. (I would argue that McWhiney's amateurish attempts don't belong in an encyclopedia at all, but I don't have the time for an ongoing edit-war) Ledenierhomme (talk) 00:44, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

• • • The original Celts were Pagans, if you want to go that far back. Most of the Welsh and Scots have not been Catholic for centuries. The preceding paragraph sounds like Irish-Catholic bias from Ledenierhomme - stop the edit war Ledenierhomme! Castravalva (talk) 15:54, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

The mind boggles. Edit war? "Irish-Catholic bias"? Would be pretty bizarre, seeing as I'm neither Irish nor Catholic. You'll get yourself blocked if you keep this up. - Ledenierhomme (talk) 03:59, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Civility seems to have gone out the window. Even though both of you are being uncivil, I'm prone to agree with Ledenierhomme that this whole section should be edited out. So that's what I shall do. RegeEtLege (talk) 17:44, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Request Semi-Protection

Would an admin please Semi-Project this article so that it might receive some quality edits once in a while? Castravalva (talk) 15:13, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

poor

why do they have to be poor? it is possible to have rich rednecks - signed by anon IP

You could encounter middle-class rednecks or white rural people with a conservative, non-affluent culture. Also there are "blue-neck or blue-dog" Democrats whose families are industrial workers, farmers and other unionized trade workers to held strong opinions about working-class status and labor/worker rights. And finally, the term "redneck" is a self-title of pride to be who they are and their families' sociocultural heritage. + 71.102.3.86 (talk) 04:43, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Irish Rednecks

I would like to point out to the author(s) of this article, that in Northern Ireland during the 1950's and 60's (and probably earlier as it was a term my grandparents also used), the term "redneck" was a common pejorative insinuating low intelligence. The etymology as explained to me was that "they were so stupid, that the only way their mothers could get their attention, was to slap them on the back of the neck".

68.99.252.93 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:20, 24 May 2009 (UTC).

 we are not poor  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.32.193.79 (talk) 02:07, 4 March 2010 (UTC) 

"Historical Usage" Section

The "Historical Usage" section doesn't say anything about the historical usage of the term "redneck" other than in a vague unreferenced way in a couple of places. The section does say a lot about the history, in a general way, of the South, Appalachia, the American Revolution, the Civil War, etc. However, this article is not about the South, Appalachia, the American Revolution, or the Civil War. It's about the term "redneck". Unless the information in this section relates to the "historical usage" of the term "redneck" then it should be deleted. Any comment before I do so? Eastcote (talk) 20:56, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

It has been ten days since I proposed deleting sections of the article that are general American history, and that do not specifically refer to usage of the term "redneck". As there has been no comment to the proposed deletion, I will go ahead and delete that content. Eastcote (talk) 22:13, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Attention RegeEtLege. I'm curious why you've reverted my deletes. The stuff I deleted was all general American history, and has nothing to do with the origin or use of the term "redneck". Please discuss it here. I posted notice of the impending deletion, and waited ten days, and no one responded. Please respond, as I am going to delete it again as irrelevant to the topic. Eastcote (talk) 23:00, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Consensus - We try to avoid unilateral action by single editors on Wikipedia. Eastcote, perhaps you should try to develop a consensus on this issue. You are pretty much on your own. I don't agree with you on this topic, but maybe others will. Castravalva (talk) 14:09, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Building consesus would be fine, but there has to be some discussion first. I am inviting discussion on this (have been for over two weeks). The "history" in the article is about early American settlement, about the Revolution, the Alamo, the Civil War, Reconstruction, etc., but that is generic American history. How does that apply to the term "redneck"? The article doesn't say. The article talks about the Whiskey tax of 1791, but it doesn't relate that to the term "redneck"; the article contains a 1760 quote about the term "cracker" but doesn't relate that to "redneck"; high Southern rates of military service isn't related to the term "redneck"; hard times during reconstruction are not discussed with a reference on how that relates to the usage of "redneck"; poverty during the Great Depression is not connected in the article to "redneck". An analogy would be writing at length on political, military and social developments in England over a 300-year period in an article about the term "limey". Yes, there was an industrial revolution, and wars with Napoleon, and Imperial expansion in Africa, but what does that have to do with the term "limey"? Maybe the historical information is true, but it is not specifically germaine to the origin and use of the term. In my opinion the info should be referenced as somehow contributing to the origin or usage of the term "redneck" or it should be deleted. Thoughts? Eastcote (talk) 14:57, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

The article needs some fine tuning, not an axe. This will happen over time, not on an arbitrary timetable. I'm willing to put some work into it - hopefully some others are willing too. Lately most of the edits posted have just been vandalism, and it is difficult to repair an article and improve it at the same time. How should we go about requesting semi-protection, so some real work can be done on the article? RegeEtLege (talk) 03:22, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I am in agreement with Eastcote, the so-called "historical usage" is entirely too long and vague to be of any use. A great deal of it looks like OR, as well. A great deal more is just plain irrelevant, like the bit about Tennessee. The section is digressive, rambling, poorly written, and terribly referenced. What is there that is worth saving? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 16:23, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm willing to look at the "Historical Usage" section a little at a time, so that we keep anything that according to consensus contributes to the article topic. So let's start off with the first paragraph:

In colonial times, rednecks and crackers were characterized as lacking in education and refinement. A 1760 letter from an English planter to the Earl of Dartmouth included the following passage: "I should explain ... what is meant by Crackers; a name they have got from being great boasters; they are a lawless set of rascalls on the frontiers of Virginia, Maryland, the Carolinas, and Georgia, who often change their places of abode." The term was applied to the Scots-Irish settlers on the frontier.

This quote from the Earl of Dartmouth is all about "cracker". This para really has nothing to do with "redneck" except that the word is inserted in association with "cracker" to relate the two somehow. There is no support here for the use of "redneck" in 1760, and the paragraph contributes nothing to our understanding of the development and use of the word. My opinion is that this para should be deleted. Other thoughts? Eastcote (talk) 12:12, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I have deleted the following para from the historical usage section. It says nothing about the origin or usage of the term "redneck", and does not indicate that any of those involved were called rednecks.

The fledgling US government inherited a huge debt from the American Revolutionary War. One of the steps taken to pay it down was a tax imposed in 1791 on distilled spirits. Large producers were assessed a tax of six cents a gallon. Smaller distillers, however, located in the more remote areas, were taxed at a higher rate of nine cents a gallon. These rural settlers were short of cash to begin with, and they lacked any practical means to get their grain to market other than fermenting and distilling it into relatively portable alcoholic spirits. From Pennsylvania to Georgia, the western counties engaged in a campaign of harassment of the federal tax collectors. "Whiskey Boys" also made violent protests in Maryland, Virginia, North and South Carolina, and Georgia. This civil disobedience eventually culminated in armed conflict in the Whiskey Rebellion of 1794.

This information would be more appropriate in an article on the Whiskey Rebellion. Eastcote (talk) 02:14, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Good call. No attempt is made to show how that episode in US history is relevant. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 04:11, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

After some thought, I have deleted the following paragraphs, which discuss the contributions of U.S. Southerners to military service. These paragraphs say much about the willingness of Southerners, particularly those from Tennessee, to serve their country in time of war. However, these paras do not connect any of this to the origin or usage of the term "redneck".

Southerners have served in the U.S. armed forces at a higher rate than Americans of other regions, for a variety of reasons. In recent decades, the military represented a way out of agricultural poverty and small towns. The South had a tradition of military service among the elite, who typically formed the officer corps.

Tennessee is known as the "Volunteer State" for the unexpected number of Tennesseans who volunteered for duty in the War of 1812, the Texas Revolution (including the defense of the Alamo), and especially the Mexican-American War. During the Civil War, poor whites did most of the fighting and the dying on both sides of the conflict. They were more numerous than the elite, who also died on both sides. Poor southern whites stood to gain little from secession and were usually ambivalent about the institution of slavery.

This information would be more appropriate in article on Tennessee, or on historical episodes in American history such as the Civil War, Mexican War, or War of 1812. Eastcote (talk) 20:50, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I deleted the paragraph concerning the Hatfield-McCoy feud. Such feuds contributed to national perceptions of the stereotypical "hillbilly", but the connection with the term "redneck" is not demonstrated here. The reference mentioned the feud only in an oblique way, without connecting it to "redneck". Eastcote (talk) 12:08, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I am editing out the "Historical Usage" section, which doesn't say anything about the historical usage of the term "redneck" other than in an inferential, unreferenced way in a couple of places. The section does say a lot about the social history of the Reconstruction era, but this article is not about Reconstruction. It's about the term "redneck". The section currently mentions redneck in an oblique way, with an implication that the term is somehow connected with the reconstruction era. There are plenty of references to support the historical and social commentary, but the references do not connect the history lesson to the origin or usage of the term redneck. I am therefore going to delete the "historical usage" section. Any new information on the historical usage of the term should contain references which actually address the term "redneck". Eastcote (talk) 04:01, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Exclaves?

I have removed the following, and bring it here for discussion:

In California, descendants of resettled white southerners who are self-identified as Okies and Rednecks are widely numerous in agricultural and rural sections of the state such as San Joaquin Valley, areas of the Sacramento Valley, the Sierra Nevada, Mojave Desert and the North Coast. Those areas are deemed more politically conservative and more devoutly religious; lower in household income; and its cities tend to have fewer ethnic minorities vis-a-vis metropolitan areas such as Los Angeles, San Francisco, and more recently, urban Sacramento.

In the 1950s, Bakersfield, California country musicians such as Buck Owens, Merle Haggard and Wynn Stewart helped develop a unique country music style called the Bakersfield sound. Their influence was so great that Bakersfield is second only to Nashville, Tennessee, in country music fame. Bakersfield continues to produce and influence famous country music artists.

Central Pennsylvania (also referred to, pejoratively, as "Pennsyltucky") is often seen as redneck country, as in Democratic Party strategist James Carville's reputed description of the state: "Philadelphia at one end, Pittsburgh at the other, Alabama in the middle."

Other exclaves can be found throughout the oil-producing areas of Alaska. In the second half of the 20th-Century, concurrent with the development of the oil industry and pipeline, large numbers of Gulf Coast petroleum workers moved to Alaska for high pay and adventure — and many stayed.

Alberta and Saskatchewan are sometimes said to be the home of rednecks in Canada, due to its similarities to Texas (oil, farming, and ranching). Like rural people elsewhere, some Canadians continue to see this as a highly offensive term while others have claimed it and proudly describe themselves as rednecks. This difference often arises because the former consider the term to connote racist beliefs while the latter believe it implies traditional rural values (e.g., work ethic, honesty, self-reliance, simplicity and individual freedom). Rural areas of Ontario such as Grey and Simcoe counties are also said to be home to rednecks.

First of all, none of this is referenced, and it reads as little more than speculation and opinion---hence the fact that this section has been a frequent target of irrelevant information---and my response is "so what?" In the absence of references, this is just useless. Thoughts? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 16:31, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I am in favor of keeping this article specific to the origin and usage of the term "redneck". The article overall tends to treat "redneck" as if it is an ethnicity, and that is not the case. The article identifies "redneck" as originating in the Deep South, but then to say that Saskatchewan has an "exclave" of rednecks implies a migration there by a group -- presumably from the Deep South. What would be germaine to the article, if referenced, is how usage of the term spread beyond the Deep South to Canada, Australia, etc. The portion on the Bakersfield sound belongs in an article on country music, but I don't see it as germaine to the term redneck. Maybe "rednecks" liked the Bakersfield sound, but so did other folks who would not be identified as rednecks. Eastcote (talk) 19:00, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Exactly what I was thinking, Eastcote, thank you. There is too much vague information in this article, as if editors are unsure what they are writing about. As you say, saying someone is a "redneck" is not the same as saying they are Chinese. There is no redneck ethnic group, rather there is a term with a specific history used to describe people of a certain cultural background. This should be the subject of the article. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 01:17, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

The term Okie stands for someone who came from the state of Oklahoma and they share the same redneck image stereotype, along with other southern and western states. The migrant farm workers and their families set roots in new places and regions for many decades, such as the "Okie Colony" of San Miguel, California about 30 miles north of San Luis Obispo, and the recent popularity of "Victorville redneck jokes" are muttered by a few stand-up comedians (also are found on youtube comments in clips relating to the town, may been removed) in a standup joint in the L.A. area. + 71.102.11.193 (talk) 09:04, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Civil War and "Redneck"

I have deleted the following section, which discusses general economic conditions related to the Civil War and Reconstruction, but does not show any connection to how this influenced, spawned, or defined the term "redneck".

The disruptions of the Civil War (1861-65) and Reconstruction mired African Americans in a new poverty and dragged many more white Americans into a similar state. The destruction of the war added to the burdens of a society in which planters had not invested in public infrastructure or education in the antebellum years. The continued reliance on agriculture trapped families in sharecropping and tenant farming for generations. Emerging industries paid low wages and imposed company-town restrictions. Destitute white Americans were labeled "poor white trash", “cracker,” "clay eater," "linthead," "peckerwood," "buckra" and especially redneck.

Should anyone have a reference that directly links this segment of history to the origin or usage of the term "redneck", then I would think it should be restored, with appropriate references. Eastcote (talk) 03:34, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Uncouth or Working Class

Does the pejorative "uncouth" really belong in the description? This is POV. More appropriate to say "working class." ColDickPeters (talk) 03:19, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

It's possible to be a working class rural Southerner and not be a redneck. There's a certain "uncouthness" associated with being a redneck. Eastcote (talk) 03:32, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Not necessarily. The word gets used pretty indiscriminantly. "Uncouth" is in the eye of the beholder, and personal point of view. If "uncouth" is to be used, then it should be sourced properly. ColDickPeters (talk) 12:48, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Used as a Synonym for "Racist"

The section titled "Modern Usage" needs to include this. I've heard the words used interchangeably, especially by East Coast liberals.

Redneck is a racial slur

Or is the hypocritical, ultra-leftist wikipedia wrong when it says on the racial slur page that redneck is a racial slur? Let the symphony of hollow, hypocritical "discussion" commence...

Or you could cite a source for that. Someguy1221 (talk) 21:20, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Why the obsession with this particular part of the page? Interesting. It's not that you want to further the liberal viewpoint, is it? Embarrassed that your people used a racial slur while at the same time calling other people racists? Don't you love the tide moving against you? You remind me of the Bushies. It gets worse for you. Much worse. I know that only random leftist blogs are good sources on wikipedia, but maybe you can try to stomach this http://www.rsdb.org/, or are you now so consumed with your nonsense that you'll compromise every one of your standards? That's the best part, watching you guys destroy your souls to defend your mistakes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.250.3.74 (talk) 21:33, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Tsk tsk tsk, you should provide a cite for "generally pejorative term" before you remove it. You know the rules, and I love watching you break them for your corrupt ideology. "Racial slur" had a perfectly good cite. You should pretend to hash it out on the talk page before you further your biased, liberal viewpoint. What's wrong? Need justification for your hate of southern whites? Or just people who disagree with Obama in general? I like your use of the word "tiresome". Get used to it. The country is swiftly moving against you and your viewpoints everyday. The funniest part is I don't ally with any of your crackpot angles. I just like watching you all destroy everything. Destroy on! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.250.3.74 (talk) 00:03, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

User:CAVincent, please don't vandalize the page with your uncited material by removing cited material. You know the rules. You wouldn't want your account suspended for vandalism, would you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.250.3.74 (talk) 01:17, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid your citation doesn't meet reliable source guidelines. Be that as it may, I really don't think redneck can be described as an ethnic or racial slur. Although those described as such are almost always white, the relevant issue is that it describes rural whites of low socio-economic status. The slur has to do with that status, not their race. Moreover, the term is most often used by whites to describe other whites, further suggesting that the slur is not racial in nature. I'm curious, are there any non-anonymous editors who think it can be reasonably or reliable-sourcedly described as a "racial/ethnic slur"? I did some searching of online dictionaries, and while there is agreement that the term is disparaging, I can't find anything to support it as a racial term. --CAVincent (talk) 05:09, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I'll be frank. I think it's goofy to not consider it a "racial/ethnic slur." It's not a pure "racial/ethnic slur" -- it is a combination of race and class/attitudinal behavior. That the term is "most often used by whites to describe other whites" has absolutely no bearing on whether it is a racial slur or not. I listen to hip-hop, and I hear African-American artists refer to other men of the same race as "niggers" quite frequently. Does that mean that "nigger" is not a racial slur? Of course not. Is "redneck" a specifically racial term? Isn't the answer to be found in the name itself? The addition of classist consideration to the term doesn't supersede, undermine or delete the fact that it has its foundation in race. I am all for verifiable standards in Wikipedia, and my history supports that, but if you can't find "anything to support it as a racial term"...how hard are you looking? You say you searched online dictionaries and didn't find anything to support it as a racial term. Did you miss Merriam-Webster somehow? Note how the first meaningful word in the first definition is "white": http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/redneck Ginsengbomb (talk) 05:33, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Point taken, re: n-word. And yes, I did note that all dictionaries noted rednecks were white, just didn't see that as making it a racial term for reasons stated above. Thanks for commenting.--CAVincent (talk) 05:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Still don't see "redneck" as specifically "racial". White folks call other white folks "redneck." It originated as a name by white folks for other white folks. Class-based, ethnic-based, most likely. Sure there are blacks who call whites "rednecks", but they don't refer to ALL whites as "rednecks" and are using it in a more class-based sense. "Honky", which refers to all whites, is a racial slur (though I haven't heard that one in years). The reference provided does not say "racial", but calls it "disparaging, so I have altered the lead to reflect that. Eastcote (talk) 11:30, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Exactly, since really everyone wants to be white (blacks straightening hair, foreign blacks bleaching skin, Southeast Asian deploring skin tans) anyways, it can't really be all that disparaging even though it specifically refers to poor whites because your friendly neighborhood liberal will certainly tell you that being poor is much better than being rich. Just like how "uncle Tom" is a term for rich blacks who've bought into the system, this is about whites who don't even know how to spell "system". Neither one are ethnic slurs because they don't include "crackers" (rich, southern whites) and "niggers" (definition unnecessary), and "uncle Tom" isn't even a slur. In fact, since "nigger" is used by "uncle Toms" to identify poor, welfare-receiving, ignorant, useless blacks (their definition not mine, of course), we should consider not identifying that as an ethnic slur, either. Yes, if the criteria for "ethnic slur" is to be 1) it must identify ALL people of a race, sub-race, or mixed race and 2) must identify them negatively then I think we've solved racism since no racial slur obeys that criteria. Good work people! What CAN'T liberalism solve? "'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves..."

Please stop allowing liberals with agendas to massage their racism from vandalizing this important page. The definition of an ethnic slur is slur against someone's race. The definition supports this. Liberals, be proud that you hate whites, especially southern whites. Wear it like a symbol on your sleeve like a union affiliation or Jewish star. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.250.13.4 (talk) 18:54, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

• I've advised the IP above that their editing has become disruptive, and reverted their last edit to the status quo; I'm encouraging further civil discussion here regarding the need for changes, and advised against further disruptive editing. Tony Fox (arf!) 20:45, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

• Thanks!! - 4twenty42o (talk) 20:47, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

• I'd say 74.250.3.74 has a case that's worth responding to, though I'd prefer it if the tone of discussion were just a tad less histrionic. Ultimately, a reliable source that comes out and lists "redneck" as a racial slur is obviously superior to the currently offered sourcing, but it does seem worth noting that every definition thus far offered seems to mention race as a factor. Certainly I'm curious why sourcing that's accepted at List of ethnic slurs isn't being accepted, here -- my guess is the manner in which it's being presented, which is needlessly combative. – Luna Santin (talk) 22:18, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree that much of the objection is due to the unacceptable behavior of 74.250.13.4. The behavior of 74.250.13.4 is worth censure. However, the topic deserves some civil discussion. Certainly "redneck" is a disparaging slur, and the article currently reflects that. Although there are references that will say it's a "racial" slur, or at least an "ethnic" slur, there are differences of opinion on the use of those terms in the article, and on whether they provide really an accurate definition of the term "redneck". "Racial" implies that the term is based solely on race, and that it is used principally by people of another race. "Redneck", as far as I've ever heard, only refers to white people, but it does not refer simply to whiteness, does not apply to all white people, and it is used by white people to refer to other white people. "Racial" does not seem to be the best term to apply here in definition of the term. Likewise, "ethnic" generally refers to nationality or perhaps to people of a region. But people termed "rednecks" could have national origins in England, Ireland, Germany, France, etc., and although it originated to describe a "type" of Southerner, it is obviously not regional, because it is found in many regions, and not everyone in a particular region would be considered "rednecks". "Redneck" seems to refer best to lifestyle, habits, tastes and worldview. It is a social label, and not specifically a racial or ethnic one. It is certainly "disparaging", and the article currently reflects that. I think we should discuss a bit more before making any further changes. Eastcote (talk) 22:54, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

One other note. The article currently DOES follow the source given at List of ethnic slurs. The source, Merriam-Webster, states, "sometimes disparaging: a white member of the Southern rural laboring class", and that is pretty close to how this article already defines "redneck". Eastcote (talk) 23:02, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, 74...'s behavior is obviously disturbed. Also, I want to protect liberals as much as the next guy. It would not be good to lose such a good weapon against Republicans/conservatives. We can't allow this term to be clearly considered racist, or we lose our moral authority, and people will accuse us even more of hypocrisy. That being said, we need to come up with a better source that says that this isn't a racial slur because if you use the definitions for "racial" and "slur" from Webster, the people might see through what we're trying to do. We need a source that also doesn't define "racial" as "pertaining to race" and "slur" as "an insulting remark or innuendo". Please find another source that won't allow people to write-off wikipedia even more than people are doing right now. We need to remember that we have to have moral authority AND credibility lest we lose the ability to influence policy and gain control over the country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.18.201.254 (talk) 15:13, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Nice try. This is not a political topic, and Wikipedia is not a political soapbox. Eastcote (talk) 15:36, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate your enthusiasm Eastcote to defend liberal ideals no matter the cost, but things aren't going our way, these days. We can surely get back influence, but we have to be sharper. We can't just say things anymore and expect people to buy it. If Webster defines "racial" as "pertaining to race" and "slur" as "a disparagement" while it defines "redneck" as merely a "disparagement", it becomes yet another snowball in the avalanche of criticism wikipedia's receiving these days for ultra-"left wing" bias. Some could say that the definition from Webster is incomplete or merely has no intention of completeness and that based upon the definitions of "racial" and "slur" from the very same dictionary, "redneck" is an ipso facto racial slur based upon the absence of the negative assertion by Webster against "redneck"'s categorization as a "racial slur" combined with the definitions of "racial" and "slur". Believe me, I'm with you. I want us to be able to continue to disparage the opposition as easily as possible, but this hurts our case. All I'm asking is that we use a different source that doesn't also simultaneously define "racial" and "slur" in such a way that "redneck" will qualify. I'm fine with the endless contradiction within Wikipedia for less important articles, but this has to be handled better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.18.201.254 (talk) 17:06, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Webster Definition of "Redneck" Patent Nonsense

The definition of "redneck" by Webster as a "disparagement" only and not a "racial slur" is Patent Nonsense since the very same dictionary defines "racial" as "pertaining to race" which the article goes to long lengths to demonstrate and defines "slur" as a dispragement. I will remove the dispragement portion until we can resolve this total nonsense. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.18.201.254 (talk) 17:22, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

"Redneck" has more to do with social class than with race as such. And if it's such a slur, why do some whites use the term on themselves? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:00, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

It began as a term used by one group of white folks to refer to another group of white folks. Even if the white "race" was the only "race" on the planet, the term "redneck" would still be with us as a descriptor for a group of people. It does not refer to whiteness, but to social position. Merriam-Webster only mentions "white" to describe these members of the "Southern rural working class" to differentiate them from the other members of the Southern rural working class (i.e. Black ones, who get their own set of disparaging terms). It was and still is a disparaging term, but like some other disparaging terms (e.g. hillbilly or the dreaded "N-word" it has become a badge of solidarity for those so identified. Eastcote (talk) 14:14, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

<inflamatory comment removed>

Precisely. I cannot even imagine a black comedian producing a routine titled, "You might be a n***** if..." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:27, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

<inflamatory comment removed>

Damn bugs you made me spill my coffee!! - 4twenty42o (talk) 23:15, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

<inflamatory comment removed>

He didn't say anything like that, so your post really doesn't apply.— Dædαlus ^Contribs 02:57, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually, Chris Rock has a similar "I hate N*****s!" routine. Castravalva (talk) 18:34, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Definition in lead.

I think the lead needs a new, succinct, accurate definition of redneck. The term doesn't apply to all white working class people, and it no longer applies only to Southern white working class people (and even in the South never applied to ALL white working class). Some attributes attached to it are lower class, uncouthness, bigotry. Need to sort all this out and come up with a better lead. Any ideas? Eastcote (talk) 05:17, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Hopefully something that doesn't include "stereotypically Caucasian"... what exactly is that stereotype? I understand what the sentence is getting at, but it does not read well. Perhaps something like "people of the white, rural working class or thought to hold attitudes stereotypically attributed to this group". That doesn't cover all your requests, but would be better I think. --CAVincent (talk) 06:37, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. As a child of Appalachia I think the lead pretty well covers what it is supposed to. I personally was born and raised in eastern Tennessee and until recently lived in rural Indiana. The term redneck has been an everyday part of some peoples vocabulary, here in Indiana and through out Tennessee, to stereotypically describe white men who work outside in the sun, live in less than desirable conditions and are poor. While not exactly offensive to some it does tend to be meant disparagingly. I do not understand how the lead/definition is not fitting. - 4twenty42o (talk) 06:46, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Too bad you can't encompass Jeff Foxworthy's routine into the definition. But I think you've hit upon the right word: It's a stereotype. You can tell that by listening to Foxworthy's bits. "If your family tree does not fork..." Well, that hardly qualifies as a standard practice for red-necked laborers. It's more like the hillbilly stereotype. "If you have seven cars in your yard, and none of 'em work..." That fits the stereotype a little better. It can be disparaging, but can also be seen as making fun of one's own group. I recall visiting a company facility in the south, and I asked the guy who managed the site what was the best way to get to the next location. He said, "Do you want the Yankee route, or the Redneck route?" He was calling himself a redneck. And by the way, this guy had a Ph.D. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:59, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Have you seen the "redneck hot tub" commercial? I ask because my dad had something similar when I was a wee one, and every time I see this topic come up on my watchlist I think of my poor redneck daddy. I really don't understand why this article is receiving so much attention. "If the shoe fits..." - 4twenty42o (talk) 07:09, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Let me put it this way - almost every joke I've seen about rednecks was sent to me by white people. It's a mostly-harmless stereotype. It's like Norwegians laughing at Ole and Lena jokes. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:24, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

What about something along these lines, as shorter and less convoluted.

Redneck is a disparaging term that refers to a person of the white, rural working class, stereotypically of lower socio-economic status, bigoted and _____. Originally limited to the Southern United States, the term has become widely used throughout the United States and Canada.

There is a sense of bigotry and poor taste that goes along with the term. Anyone got a better way to say "poor taste"? And the sense of bigotry has lessened over the years. Is there a better word than bigotry? Eastcote (talk) 15:44, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Bigotry? You think that the term is bigoted? Used to describe bigots? The people who use it are bigots? Or rednecks are bigots? - 4twenty42o (talk) 23:28, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

That would say that Jeff Foxworthy is a bigot against himself. I don't think so. I would say "a sometimes-disparaging term" and "sometimes bigoted". The problem is that the term has evolved. Among the various redneck jokes that circulate, hardly any of them involve bigotry. Most of them involve improvising junk into something useful. I like to think of Red Green as a Canadian redneck. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:52, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Hum. A term like this is deliberately left to be subjective, and that's far too much of a definition. Also not so much liking the point of view on that, as it could be seen as though the editor placing it were mocking such people. I've lived my whole life with the stereotype waved around like it were nothing but the reverse definition of ~GenericNorthernStatePerson~, but even I can see how that might be taken as offensive by many. I've known urban-raised people who deliberately accept the title based on their hobbies, and people from smaller communities that laugh about doing their best to evade it. Think of it as "equal-opportunity ribbing" since it always has some kind of meaning and can be shoved about in both directions for different reasons. ..."Caucasian" needs to stay... sorry. At least I've never seen an instance of it being used toward any other race/ethnicity, nor can I think of any cases where I would want to. The more global view is to Caucasian as well; it can be an insult to Americans overseas, and of course there's the whole Scotland theory which ties it to another source. Or, I'll put it another way, if you loosen up the term and try to use it on anyone else you can end up with crimes against civil rights such as Black Rednecks and White Liberals. Oh. Why isn't there a mention of the stereotyping of Scotsmen in the Monty Python series (on that page)?! Curses, since that's a an absolutely perfect comparison to this article. The kinda-mean-it-but-don't-really-have-anything-against-them type of passive stereotype that most people will give a chuckle to since the feeling is usually mutual. Actually, an outside perspective of some UK residents on how they bounce terms around for persons in different reasons would be great. ♪ daTheisen(talk) 01:44, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Didn't mean to start a firestorm guys. The point I was getting at is that the stereotype is that a redneck is bigoted. But, as I said, that sense has lessened over the years. In the 1960s, "redneck" equaled "bigot". I think Foxworthy and company have done much to change that image over the past 40 years. That's why I think a different word is in order. But it's still part of the "redneck" persona to be a bit....what? Narrow-minded? (Hey, I like what I like, and don't try to get me to try anything new). There's also the matter of poor, or lack of, taste. Or shall we say "lack of sophistication" as Foxworthy does? That's part of what defines a redneck (If you've ever cut your grass and found a car... If someone asks to see your ID and you show them your belt buckle... If you've ever financed a tattoo... If your dog and your wallet are both on a chain... If you see a sign that says "say no to crack", and it reminds you to pull your jeans up...) These days, thanks to Foxworthy, these things define a redneck. So how do we capture that in the definition? (I also have one for myself... Since Jeff Foxworthy is my cousin, I just might be a Redneck. It's true...but he's a distant cousin). Eastcote (talk) 02:22, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to change the lead at this point. Feel free to try and change my mind, but as of right now I think that the lead is pretty good. - 4twenty42o (talk) 02:32, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Ahem. Well. That was a fun diversion of reverts while trying to save.

This doesn't count as a "firestorm" I don't think, and if we had to give a rolling definition during its usage in post-industrial America that would probably fit in in some ways. Admittedly, there is still the off occasion where I can see the term as racist, but on a harmful scale of 1-10 this ranks about a 0.2 most of the time. Eastcote raises an interesting question... the need to define "the essence or 'Redneck'" to bring in the reader. Right. That looked so odd to type I just stared at it a good 10 seconds. Still, interesting. An external POV from the UK or Europe in general for a broader view would still be fun :) ♪ daTheisen(talk) 03:26, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh, related! For a British perspective of Canadians, please see The Lumberjack Song? Actually ... you know, there's an angle to this I hadn't pieced together until now. There is at least some data to show that the same sort of "redneck" push came to the great lakes region in the early 1800s and is inexplicably tied to the use of the word Eh in surrounding areas. If both were true, trying to piece that together might be interesting. ♪ daTheisen(talk) 03:26, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

That's an interesting observation, re: the Great Lakes. Being transplanted from Alabama to the Great Lake state of Michigan, I have often seen more stereotypical redneck behavior among rural Michiganians than back home in Alabama. The rural Michigan accent is very close (to my ear anyway) to an Ontario accent, complete with "Eh". Eastcote (talk) 03:35, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

But...back to the definition. There's something in the term "redneck" that sets it apart from other terms like "white trash", "hillbilly", "cracker", etc., and the definition in the article should capture that so that it's not seen as cognate with these other terms. The uncouth traits Foxworthy talks about could apply better to "white trash". I've known a few rednecks who didn't fit into Foxworthy's world at all. They were well-spoken, well-dressed, God-fearin' folks, but rednecks all the same. There's a certain bull-headed certainty about things (I won't call it bigotry) that goes along with being a redneck, and that doesn't necessarily apply to the more easy-going hillbilly or the beyond-caring-or-knowing white trash. Eastcote (talk) 04:09, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Eastcote, this is sounding more and more like original research. Without a good reference, I don't think this belongs in the intro. I still prefer the option I presented, but without support for that change I think we are better off leaving the intro as-is. --CAVincent (talk) 05:14, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree that this appears to be WP:OP however I applaud your ability to provide good discussion and editing abilities. - 4twenty42o (talk) 05:18, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'm fine with leaving the lead as it is. However, I did find a couple of references that I may work into the article somewhere. F.N. Boney in Southerners All, "And the last, major charge against the redneck is certainly true; he is and always has been a racist at heart.” And Flora, MacKethan, & Taylor in The Companion to Southern Literature, “What differentiates rednecks from poor whites is the perception of rednecks as racist, hot-headed, too physical, violent, uncouth, loud, mean, undereducated – and proud of it.” Eastcote (talk) 18:00, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Related Terms

Is it just me, or is the "related terms" section getting out of hand? Wikipedia is not an international slang dictionary. I'm deleting the list, with a few obviously relevant ones, like hillbilly, moved to the "see also" section. The list as-is has totally irrelevant and unrelated terms. For example, Cabeza describes a taco filling. Chav and Gopnik are street punks having more in common with gangstas than rednecks. Jibaro and Cholo describe South American people of indigenous or mixed race. Camponio, Flaite, Frepper and Vidlak are red internal links. Eastcote (talk) 15:39, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

HUMOUR

Soviet Russian Kamrad (talk) 09:58, 22 December 2009 (UTC)I added some humour from (http://lurkmore.ru/%D0%A0%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BA)

• I don't think that's encyclopedic enough for this site. -LtNOWIS (talk) 10:16, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Deletion of comments from Talk page.

I deleted two comments that were added some months ago at the beginning of the talk page. Although I don't generally delete other's comments on talk pages, I deleted these as instances of vandalism. One deletion had been inserted into someone else's contribution. The other that I deleted was obviously spurious if you read the content. Eastcote (talk) 19:46, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

As a Subculture

I have noticed this article is limited only to the etymology of the term, “redneck.” It would seem to make few references to the people who actually identify with this term. Contrary to popular misconception, rednecks aren't just a stereotype found in popular culture, but comprise a visible and distinct cultural group within the United States. Many value our "rednecks" as hard-working, simple, useful members of society, whom perform much of the labor intensive jobs that the American community depends on. They contribute to American culture and our greater national diversity. Nonetheless it would seem they have been omitted completely from Wikipedia as if they didn’t exist. We shouldn’t forget that these are actual people we are talking about not some type of label. There are a few reference in the article that references to an actual subculture, which should be the real focus of the article without giving into stereotypes.

tripodero (talk) 6:07, 27 May 2010 (UTC)