Talk:Sulaiman Bek

Preventing an edit war

Alright @Mteiritay:,

at this point I think it is clear that either we talk this out or it devolves into an edit war. If we can't find common ground, we should consider involving mediators, but I hope we're both mature enough to argue reasonably.

About your arguments for deleting my edits: 1. Your argument about the Bayat tribe not being Turkmen does not actually concern my edit, as it was just a side fact I mentioned in the edit log but didn't include in the article in any way. Furthermore, you surely see how questionable it is to use a facebook link to argue against actual sources used in the article, that it doesn't even concern directly. If you want, we can also expand this discussion on the Bayat, as I could also show you facebook links declaring the Bayat Turkmen, but again, this isn't even what this is about, since the ethnicity of the Bayat is not included in the article.

2. The category below is not sourced, so that could very well be the next thing you decide to delete. Also, the categories are not part of the information of an article, they are, well, categories this article is part of. That you are trying to delete information from a stub of two sentences as redundant, is rather ridiculous, as you can hopefully see.

3. South Azerbaijani is the linguistic name of Turkmen, which is, in fact a recognized minority language of Iraq, as acknowledged by the constitution:

Article 4:
First: The Arabic language and the Kurdish language are the two official
languages of Iraq. The right of Iraqis to educate their children in their mother
tongue, such as Turkmen, Syriac, and Armenian shall be guaranteed in
government educational institutions in accordance with educational guidelines, or
in any other language in private educational institutions.

and

Fourth: The Turkomen language and the Syriac language are two other official
languages in the administrative units in which they constitute density of
population.

I hope you agree that this clears things up. Your argument, that the name would be the same either way of course doesn't hold any water, as evidently, G is a different letter than K.

One additional point: Please acknowledge, that you can not simply continue removing sourced content because you dislike it for whatever reason. Not only is this against Wikipedia rules, it also is very respectless against the effort people put into filling Wikipedia with information. I hope we can find agreement here.

Sincerely--Ermanarich (talk) 13:33, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I'll add here now, if the problem is that the Iraqi Turkmen language is shown as "South Azerbaijani" here, that can be changed without deleting the rest. The problem is, that Wikipedia's linguistic template only shows South Azerbaijani, as that is the linguistic classification of Iraqi Turkmen. That can be worked around by doing it manually though.--Ermanarich (talk) 12:11, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

You have no reliable source that the Turkmen consitute the 'density' of the population of Sulaiman Bek. Until you do I see no reason to change the article. Mteiritay (talk) 11:36, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

---

In fact, I do have two sources that speak about a considerable Turkmen community living in Sulaiman Bek, France24 and Al Arabiya, while you have cited zero sources for your apparent claim that it is 100% Arab. Mind you, density does not mean majority, but a considerable community. Not only that, the name does not need to be official to be included here, as can be seen with the inclusion of the local dialect spelling in the article of Hamburg.

In your reversion of my edit, you claimed "Both sources you added do not at all state the town has a Turkmen minority". That is, however, not true. The Al Arabiya article says "وينتشر التركمان في قضاء تلعفر, غرب الموصل, وصولا الى التون كوبري وكركوك وتازه وداقوق وطوز خورماتو وسليمان بيك وامرلي وينكجا في نواحي محافظتي صلاح الدين وكركوك", which translates to "The Turkmens are distributed in the Tal Afar district west of Mosul, over to Altun Kupri, Kirkuk, Taza, Daquq, Tuz Khurmatu, Suleiman Bek, Amirli and Yengiche districts in Salah ad-Din and Kirkuk." Equally, the other article talks of Turkmens in Sulaiman Bek.

Your argument about them already having a category falls flat, as 1) this article is a stub so every sourced addition helps expanding the article, 2) a category is included after something relating to that category is added in the main text of an article and 3) what would even stop you from removing that as well, as after your deletions there's no source proving there are Turkmens in the city?

Your third claim that "South Azeri is not an official language of iraq in any capacity" has already been disproven by me in the answer above, with citation from the Iraqi constitution. I also said that I am willing to work around the problem of Iraqi Turkmen language and South Azerbaijani having the same language code, but so far you have not been cooperative in the slightest.

For good measure, here two more articles reporting about Turkmens and the Bayat tribe speaking Turkmen and Arabic in Sulaiman Bek.

As you so far don't really seem constructive to me and because I have seen in your contributions that there seems to be a theme of you deleting mentions of non-Arab minorities, I will now ping an administrator, to settle that dispute we're seemingly not able to. For that, I chose @Swatjester:, as he has decided in your favor in your edit war in the Al-Balushi on 31 March 2024 and can thus be regarded as impartial. I hope that will settle it, I for one will accept the judgement--Ermanarich (talk) 17:09, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Respectfully, I'd suggest y'all try using dispute resolution noticeboard if you haven't tried that already. It's specifically designed for settling these kinds of debates, and whoever assists there will likely have more time to devote to this than I will. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 18:12, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

To be honest, I would like no not waste much more time on that issue than I already had to. The situation is rather clear: The other user is deleting sourced content (supported by four sources now) and doesn't engage in a constructive discussion.

I would also like to notify you, @Swatjester:, that while you accused the now banned User talk:M5Ehistory for having demanded other users to ""take a DNA test" and 'splaining to them where their family's come from", these edits were actually done by the very User:Mteiritay, who is deleting my sourced content here. (Now, this is not a complaint for the banning of that other user, this is understandable as far as I can follow what happened there).

But yeah, if you don't have the time to mediate here, I won't bother you anymore. Thanks for your efforts to keep Wikipedia civil.--Ermanarich (talk) 15:12, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

The article you linked does not state the tribe's ethnicity, it just states the languages they speak. Mteiritay (talk) 20:38, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

See, that's what I mean by not constructive. I've now got three sources talking about Turkmens in Sulaiman Bek, one about the Bayat tribe speaking Turkmen there and one of those former three (the Al Arabiya one) stating that the Bayat tribe is Turkmen. That this tribe speaks Turkmen is of course also relevant, as even without referral to the ethnicity, you're also trying to delete the alternative spelling coming from Turkmen.--Ermanarich (talk) 08:04, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

And who says that source is correct? The actual sheikh of the tribe is an Arab and says it is an Arab tribe. Why not just leave the name of the tribe instead of arguing over what the tribe is? It does not help the point of the page which is just about the town. The official name of the town is in Arabic, adding an article which happens to translate the name does not count as a source. Mteiritay (talk) 21:43, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Back to square one, literally: No, not 'that' source. 4 sources. By respected, often used sources like France24 and Al Arabiya. Meanwhile all you've got for your claim is a literal facebook video. You know, I could come along with these as well, but that doesn't make it any more acceptable to use.

Your point gets even more ridiculous, as the whole question about the ethnicity of the Bayat is, as of now, not part of the content you fervently keep deleting. As for the name, you have - again - not answered the arguments I've brought up before. As Swat Jester seems to have abandoned us, I shall search for another mediator.--Ermanarich (talk) 01:36, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

And the 'facebook video' that you keep criticizing is a video of the actual sheikh of the tribe, which you fail to mention as it doesn't fit your narrative. And what are your sources? List them here. Mteiritay (talk) 13:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm really getting angry at this point. You're even too lazy to read my texts and look at the sources, is that what you're saying? Here, you have them, again:

• France24
• Al Arabiya
• Al Etihad
• Al Iraq times

Now, as for your issue with the Bayat tribe: 1. Facebook still isn't a reliable source that can be used on Wikipedia and 2. The question of the ethnicity of the Bayat tribe is not even directly related to this edit war, as it is not part of the edits so far. But just to make you happy, here a few sources about the ethnicity of the Bayat:

• The actual article on Wikipedia: Bayat (tribe)
• Shafaq
• Baghdad today
• Al Ahad
• Rudaw
• Al Sharqiya]
• A facebook post, if that makes you happier

I hope that settles it.--Ermanarich (talk) 14:43, 11 April 2024 (UTC)