Jump to content

Talk:Cow tipping: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous edit
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
Tags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit
m Removed deprecated parameters in {{Talk header}} that are now handled automatically (Task 30)
 
(39 intermediate revisions by 14 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{Talk header|archive_age=31|archive_bot=Lowercase sigmabot III}}
{{Talk header}}
{{Article history
{{Article history
|action1=AFD
|action1=AFD
Line 15: Line 15:
|topic=agriculture
|topic=agriculture
|dykdate=3 June 2016|dykentry=... that according to scientists, '''[[cow tipping]]''' would require between 4 and 14 coordinated people, unlike the depiction of the [[urban legend]] in film and television?|dyknom=Template:Did you know nominations/Cow tipping}}
|dykdate=3 June 2016|dykentry=... that according to scientists, '''[[cow tipping]]''' would require between 4 and 14 coordinated people, unlike the depiction of the [[urban legend]] in film and television?|dyknom=Template:Did you know nominations/Cow tipping}}
{{WikiProject Agriculture|livestock=yes|class=GA|importance=low|livestock-importance=low}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=GA|1=
{{WikiProject Agriculture|livestock=yes|importance=low|livestock-importance=low}}
}}
{{Online source|collapsed=yes|1=
{{Online source|collapsed=yes|1=
|title=Editors Won't Let It Be When It Comes to 'the' or 'The'|author=Saabira Chaudhuri|year=2012|monthday=12 October|url=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444657804578048534112811590.html|org=The Wall Street Journal|accessdate=13 October 2012
|title=Editors Won't Let It Be When It Comes to 'the' or 'The'|author=Saabira Chaudhuri|year=2012|monthday=12 October|url=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444657804578048534112811590.html|org=The Wall Street Journal|accessdate=13 October 2012
Line 21: Line 23:
|title3=Should Wikipedia’s Cow-Tipping entry include a cow photo tagged "unsuspecting potential victim"? And other lame edit wars|date3=August 2010|org3=[[Nieman Lab]] at Harvard University|url3=http://www.niemanlab.org/2010/08/links-on-twitter-3-billion-in-revenues-projected-for-digital-publishing-christopher-walken-hosts-npr-show-san-diego-u-trib-gets-a-redesign/
|title3=Should Wikipedia’s Cow-Tipping entry include a cow photo tagged "unsuspecting potential victim"? And other lame edit wars|date3=August 2010|org3=[[Nieman Lab]] at Harvard University|url3=http://www.niemanlab.org/2010/08/links-on-twitter-3-billion-in-revenues-projected-for-digital-publishing-christopher-walken-hosts-npr-show-san-diego-u-trib-gets-a-redesign/
|title4=The Completely Insane Consumer Surplus of the Internet|author4=Jason Kuznicki|date4=November 9, 2015|org4=[[Cato Institute]] (libertarianism.org)|url4=https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/completely-insane-consumer-surplus-internet
|title4=The Completely Insane Consumer Surplus of the Internet|author4=Jason Kuznicki|date4=November 9, 2015|org4=[[Cato Institute]] (libertarianism.org)|url4=https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/completely-insane-consumer-surplus-internet
|title5=Into the Depths of Wikipedia|author5=Annie Rauwerda interviewed by Amy Tom|date5=October 14, 2021|org5=[[Depths of Wikipedia]] as told to Hackernoon podcast<!-- date of DoW (Instagram) coverage unclear-->|url5=https://hackernoon.com/into-the-depths-of-wikipedia
}}
}}
{{User:MiszaBot/config
{{User:MiszaBot/config
Line 30: Line 33:
{{archives|auto=yes|search=yes}}
{{archives|auto=yes|search=yes}}


== Semi-protected edit request on 20 July 2023 ==
== Impossibility edits ==

[[User:Montanabw]] has reverted some [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cow_tipping&diff=743548053&oldid=743510713 "extensive edits"] and asked for discussion, since this article is a GA. The main edits reverted are:-

# Changing the tone from cow tipping being "generally considered an urban legend", to phrasing it more neutrally as a "story".
# An unsourced warning that the studies mentioned "thus do not constitute proofs of the ''impossibility'' of humans tipping over cows".
# Removing Lillie's quote that "It just makes the physics of it all, in my opinion, impossible."
# Quoting the observation in ''Modern Farmer'' that no YouTube videos exist of cow tipping.

(1) doesn't seem like an improvement - cow-tipping fits the description of an [[urban legend]] and we have a source explicitly commenting on the "urban" nature of it (that it's "a story believed by city folk"). The suggested opening statement that "whether it's an urban legend or a tall tale is disputed" is ambiguous (are people disputing the best term to use, or are they disputing the fictional story nature entirely?), but neither reading is supported by the sources.

(2) seems incorrect when the section goes on to say "impossible to accomplish by a single person" and quotes Lillie saying "It just makes the physics of it all, in my opinion, impossible." - there may be a better way to write that section, but "it's impossible and impossible but beware, these aren't proofs of impossibility!" is unnecessarily confusing to the reader.

(3) was my edit: it's not clear what Lillie is describing as "impossible" here. Presumably the suggestion that a single person could push a cow over (rather than it being impossible for any number of people to ever tip a cow over), but the sources don't quote this in any context. It seems clearer to end on "Thus Lillie and Boechler concluded that it is unlikely that cows can actually be tipped over in this way."

(4) was another of my edits which just seemed like a good point made by ''Modern Farmer'' that I noticed when looking over the sources. --[[User:McGeddon|McGeddon]] ([[User talk:McGeddon|talk]]) 08:55, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

:My opinions. 1/ doesn't seem like an improvement, dropping "urban legend" from the lede kind of misses the point of the rest of the article 2/ we definitely should not add this; impeaching our own sources is weirdly editorial 3/ Lillie's quote is an important inclusion: we may not draw editorial conclusions, but experts' conclusions are perfectly valid 4/ it should say "as of..." but including a RS observation of non-existence of sources that could invalidate the status as a myth is a necessary part of the article. - [[User:Brianhe|Brianhe]] ([[User talk:Brianhe|talk]]) 16:36, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
::The problem with the Lillie quote is that we don't know what she's actually saying: the sources I've checked don't seem to give the quote any context. Is this a continuation of the "two people might be able to tip a cow if its centre of mass were pushed over its hooves before the cow could react", or a bolder claim that it's 100% impossible for unaided humans to ever push a cow over? (The Swearingen sentence already had a "writing in 2013...") --[[User:McGeddon|McGeddon]] ([[User talk:McGeddon|talk]]) 17:10, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
:(1) I'm the one responsible for this edit; here's the reason: a thing which is true (I'm agnostic on whether cow-tipping ever happens) should not be counted as a legend, urban or otherwise. If it's been established to be false, let's see the proof. Many times there is great dispute about the veracity of urban legends. Since its status as urban legend is disputed, why come out and say, without qualification, "The urban legend of cow tipping...." as if it is not in dispute. At the least, qualify it by the word "putative," though even that term has problems. (To whom is it putative?) My point it that claiming cow-tipping is an unqualified urban legend already supposes that it doesn't happen, which is still clearly disputed, and the article does not give definitive evidence that it's not. If I were a believer in it, such a description would seem really ignorant. So, though I think the notion of cow-tipping definitely has urban-legend-like features, it has not been established to in fact be an urban legend (who does establish such a thing?), so let's not make it appear that it is by stating that it is without qualification.
:(2) I have no quarrel really with her wording, because the wikipedia article is simply recording what the researcher said. One could quibble with her, but I don't do that here. Cow-tipping is either impossible or possible from the physics, and is not a matter of her opinion. (Imagine Einstein: light has a finite speed that cannot be exceeded under any circumstances, in my opinion.) She's just hedging her result by transforming it into an opinion. And the edit I propose certainly does not imply "it's impossible and impossible but beware, these aren't proofs of impossibility!", especially with the emphatic emphasis which is nowhere to be found in my edits or in my sentiment, and since the physics analysis she did does not imply it's impossible.
:(3) Here is my real quarrel. As you no doubt are aware, what one includes as "evidence" for or against something is itself a serious contextualization. The writer of this article has chosen to include these "scientific" accounts, and in doing so presumably thinks they are evidence of something. But evidence of what exactly? The wording of the study authors clearly involves simple plausibility. So are the studies proof of the implausibility of cow-tipping as usually described? Ok, so it's implausible because it would take a lot of effort. I doubt that any cow-tipping believer would take that as proving anything worthwhile, and I would agree with them. Notice that as she characterizes the situation, she finds it unlikely that one or a few people could do it. But again, what is the reason for including these analyses in the article? If merely to establish implausibility (which is itself a clearly relative notion), then why not call out that these "studies" don't show it's impossible, hence the only reason for their inclusion is that it gives evidence to the implausibility of cow-tipping by one or a few people? And further, the studies make no headway toward dispelling the alleged myth. Again, if the studies don't dispel the myth, what are they doing in the article? To undermine the plausibility of cow-tipping. I think so, hence my edit, and further, I worry that readers will take wikipedia to be endorsing the impossibility of cow-tipping by including these studies when all they do is impart implausibility, or what I would take to be implausibility.
: Just to be clear, I think the citing the studies in this wikipedia article is completely appropriate. The article would be way worse without them. What I don't like is the placement of the articles, without comment on their purpose, so that the reader is left thinking, "huh, well I guess modern physics has shown that cow-tipping is impossible." I grant that the studies don't say that explicitly, but then, once again, if they merely establish implausibility (which the authors ''do not'' explicitly say, though that is all they do), it is fine for the article to make that plain.[[User:Chafe66|Chafe66]] ([[User talk:Chafe66|talk]]) 20:25, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
::(1) The article currently says absolutely nothing to suggest that a cow tipping has ever been accomplished. If it's a "story" people tell each other with no evidence, which some sources have described as an "urban legend", it seems fair for Wikipedia to call this an urban legend. (I still don't understand what the {{tq|Whether cow tipping is an urban legend, or are a set of tall tales is disputed.}} sentence is trying to say - if it's intended to say "it may be an urban legend or tall tale, but some people think it might be real", then this is a poor summary of the article as is. Every urban legend is "disputed" by a person who tells the story believing it to be true.)
::(2/3) I don't see a problem here. There would be an issue if the article flatly said in Wikipedia's voice "cow-tipping is impossible" as a statement of fact, but it doesn't, it says (my emphasis) "[Lillie and Boechler] ''concluded'' that tipping a cow would require a force of nearly 3000N and is therefore impossible to accomplish by a single person" and that it was "''in my opinion'', impossible". We're reporting the results of research, as in any other science article. --[[User:McGeddon|McGeddon]] ([[User talk:McGeddon|talk]]) 09:12, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

:::It's an urban legend and within it is an insulting stereotype of people who live in rural areas. Pretending it isn't is just more of the same. We worked on this phrasing a lot during the GA run and I am not convinced there is any need to change it. I restored the original lead paragraph. [[User:Montanabw|<font color="006600">Montanabw</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Montanabw|(talk)]]</sup> 17:23, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

:::(1) Whether or not the article says nothing to suggest that cow tipping has ever been accomplished is orthogonal to any points made by me. I see no relevance there. You write, "If it's a 'story' people tell each other..." Notice the "if" at the beginning. No one here knows whether that's true. For all you know, someone has evidence. Since none of us is an expert on the topic, I take it none of us knows that. Now on to the real point. Suppose we accept Wikipedia's "definition" of ''urban legend'' (UL), which is fine with me, though it may not be authoritative. The definition requires that whatever the central claim of the UL is, it is fictitious, i.e., false. To say that X is a UL is to say, among other things, that X does not (or did not, depending on the nature of the UL) occur. No one here knows that, hence the dispute. If the truth of topic X is in dispute, then its status as a UL is necessarily in dispute. That is plain logic. If you claim that the truth of cow-tipping is not in dispute, you're simply mistaken; ergo you're likewise mistaken that its status as a UL is not in dispute. QED. Now I admit that cow-tipping is viewed with some incredulity--by how many I have no idea, and I count myself among them. But as it stands, the article presents no evidence that it is impossible, or even highly unlikely to be possible. Someone did an analysis that led her to conclude that it's unlikely, but I'll address that in a minute (which is actually my main beef). I'm going to put the dispute as to its being an urban legend back in, since I have just proved that it is in dispute.[[User:Chafe66|Chafe66]] ([[User talk:Chafe66|talk]]) 05:53, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

:::[[User:Montanabw]] claims that it's an urban legend and apparently feels no need to discuss it (thank you!), so there's no point in trying to engage him/her. Whether or not you all worked on wording a lot doesn't mean you got it right. Thousands of people work hard on things every day and still get it all wrong.[[User:Chafe66|Chafe66]] ([[User talk:Chafe66|talk]]) 05:53, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

:::(2) has nothing to do with me. But if you quote the article, you should definitely include Lillie's (Boechler's?) mentioning it's her opinion. To leave that out is to seriously skew her own view of her work, and to purposely mislead people, apparently in the direction you want them to think ("it's an urban legend!").[[User:Chafe66|Chafe66]] ([[User talk:Chafe66|talk]]) 05:53, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

:::(3)It's not that it's a "problem." Since you didn't address any of the reasons I stated above (sigh) for my added line about "establish implausibility, but not impossibility" I guess I'll have to restate them. (Isn't that how it's supposed to work?? I state a reason for my position, then you address those reasons, rather than simply restating your original position? And thus progress might be made? I thought that was the point of the discussion.) So I'll try one more time to explain it. When you include references to some analysis or other (not sure it's really a "study"—a pair of zoologists (not physicists) did a straightforward analysis of forces required to achieve a particular effect. I know about this kind of thing first-hand. If I spend a few hours on a mathematical analysis, it doesn't count as a study, nor as science. To get the latter qualifier, it needs to be vetted in peer-reviewed journals. That didn't happen here, at least there is no reference to a peer reviewed journal in your citation.), you are influencing the context of what is being claimed. You're saying, in effect, "we include these analyses, because they bear on the topic. They provide evidence for something." What could they be evidence for in the context in which they appear? Since the article attempts to report the status of the reality of cow-tipping there can be only one conclusion: they undermine the truth of cow-tipping as a practice. What else are they doing in there? Are you simply trying to include them to establish implausibility? If so, then what's wrong with saying so? If not, please answer me and tell me what they're meant to achieve. This is standard stuff, guys. In respectable articles (articles that aim a little higher than ''GA'' status on the less-than-venerable Wikipedia), when you introduce references you typically say what point they support. As I said, the citings seem perfectly fine to me in the article. But they are utterly flawed as evidence. All they do is bolster implausibility. You can see this from the author's own wording. Physics does not dabble in opinions. You will not see a single sentence in a physics text of the form "It is our opinion that F = ma." You might see "such and such might be sufficient to do so and so" but all that means is that the authors simply don't know. It's just possible, that's it. So, ''all I wanted'' was a single little sentence in there, that says look, we're including these results, but to be clear, they don't establish the impossibility of cow-tipping; they simply give plausibility arguments against it as a practice by one person or a small group of people. (Some of these cow-tipping stories say that a bunch of people are involved. What have Lillie and Boechler to say about that?) That's it, that's all I'm asking for. If you "don't think it's necessary," fine. I do. It's a better article with that disclaimer. Why not simply allow it if you still don't get it? What harm does it do to state a fact, and a fact that may not be obvious to some? Your resistance to this minor clarification seems inexplicably rigid. [[User:Chafe66|Chafe66]] ([[User talk:Chafe66|talk]]) 05:53, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
::: One last thing "is generally considered to be an urban legend" is just bad writing. Considered by whom? Did you do a survey in which > 50% of the respondents indicated they believe cow-tipping to be a UL? Did you do research on the web? Can you cite it? "Generally considered to be" is ''generally considered to be bad writing'', because it simply hides the fact that the author is reporting his/her impression as if it were a fact. Unless you have proof, "it's generally considered..." just means "I think that." And it may be true, but we're not writing articles that reflect our opinion here. That was actually the origin of my original change. If it's generally considered to be a UL, prove it. If not, I'm changing it. I hate it when people use that phrasing in WP.[[User:Chafe66|Chafe66]] ([[User talk:Chafe66|talk]]) 06:08, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
::::In mathematics it's sometimes possible to prove impossibility. The impossibility of [[squaring the circle]] is a famous example. In the natural sciences, assertions of impossibility are opinions based on evidence suggesting a high degree of improbability. "Impossible" is not the same as "improbable". However improbable it may seem, there is no way to prove that levitation by psychic powers is impossible. Lillie understands the difference between improbable and impossible, which is why she says "opinion" when she mentions "impossible". In her opinion, the improbability of cow-tipping by one or two people is so high that she regards it as impossible. Vogel, the other scientist cited in the "Scientific study" section, thinks it improbable that even larger groups of people could push over a cow. A reliable counter-example of a successful cow-tipping by relatively small numbers of people would prove them wrong, but none has so far been found. If anyone finds an RS with such a counter-example, we can add it to this article. Meanwhile, I see no problem with the logic of the article or its use of "urban legend". [[User:Finetooth|Finetooth]] ([[User talk:Finetooth|talk]]) 18:23, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
::::: [[User:Finetooth|Finetooth]] doesn't address the main points I made, which have to do with contextualizing. No one here is complaining about the "logic of the article." I also differ with this claim "In the natural sciences, assertions of impossibility are opinions based on evidence suggesting a high degree of improbability." Maybe in the kind of natural science you're familiar with, I don't know. But not true in general. Physicists don't make assertions of impossibility based on something's "high degree of improbability." Maybe there are a few examples, but it's not the practice. If they do, then they're just saying "I don't know." Once the analysis is presented and its meaning understood, the scientist has no more authority than anyone else as to the putative process's possibility. Lillie is not the only one who understands the difference between improbable and impossible. Pretty much everyone does—anyone who grasps horse racing in particular. Further, cow-tipping is not in the same category as psychic powers, or even ETs. There are no questions about the physical mechanisms, and the laws that govern them, involved in cow tipping, or that with enough force a cow could be "tipped." It's certainly possible with enough force. No one doubts that. No new science is involved in understanding it. It looks like it would be hard with one or even a few people. But that's not very convincing to the believer, nor should it be. OTOH, concerning psychic powers, there is no evidence that a mechanism that enables such a thing even exists, so the analogy is not apt here. Regardless, [[User:Finetooth|Finetooth]] seems to think my qualms have to do with whether cow-tipping might still happen and nitpicking about whether it's truly impossible or merely implausible based on what Lillie and her student (who are not even physicists) have said. If so you're confusing points about the nature of so-called evidence and how that evidence should be treated in the text, with the content of the evidence and whether I personally find it compelling. If you think I'm trying to attack or defend the "studies" on the possibility of cow-tipping please read my responses again. This is not a peer-reviewed physics journal. At this point, I actually don't believe responders actually grasp the arguments I've made, or their purpose. Makes it hard to debate a topic. One thing is for sure: "generally considered to be X" is poor writing and I wish it were abolished completely by Wikipedia. Anyway, I give up. [[User:Chafe66|Chafe66]] ([[User talk:Chafe66|talk]]) 22:22, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
::::: PS, if anyone wants to take this up offline, I would be willing to, but this forum just ain't working for me. I came to the article looking for answers, and I found the citing of the analyses unhelpful (and even somewhat misleading and pedantic) in finding out whether the practice exists. That was the original source of my edits, which I stand by. Cheers [[User:Chafe66|Chafe66]] ([[User talk:Chafe66|talk]]) 22:39, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
:::::: {{Ping|Chafe66}} I'm honestly having a hard time parsing this, so maybe a different tack will be more productive. Is there a GA or FA class article involving scientific/mechanical analysis that you feel does a better job than this one? If so what is it, and what part specifically ought we to emulate here? - [[User:Brianhe|Brianhe]] ([[User talk:Brianhe|talk]]) 05:00, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
::::::: {{Ping|:Brianhe}} Thanks for reaching out. Not offhand—I haven't been on WP looking at anything like this much. But frankly, if I were you, I wouldn't use WP (even the vaunted GA/FA class) as a guide for good writing. This is a typical problem in topics that are controversial, and I think WP articles aren't particularly good at navigating them, so maybe have a look elsewhere at some well-done articles on UFO's and other much disputed topics where non-hearsay evidence appears to be completely lacking in the public record. Statements and claims in such articles are always fraught with problematic nuances that don't do justice to the opposing side of the relevant debate. In my view, this is almost as likely from the ones claiming science as their basis as from the fruitcakes. One can still hold a view but do everything he/she can to be fair to one's opponents, in particular by not making one's case appear stronger than it is, which is pretty much my feeling here.[[User:Chafe66|Chafe66]] ([[User talk:Chafe66|talk]]) 07:00, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

== Cow Tipping suggestions ==

Under the pop culture page information about upcoming events on cow tipping could attract more viewers to the article. For example, The RH3C Cow Tipping Weekend 2017 is coming to Columbus, Ohio. The event will be help from 4/21 05:00pm to 4/23 12:00 pm at Magnuson Grand Columbus North. More information about the event can be found at https://hashrego.com/events/cow-tipping-weekend-2017

There is also a family run ice cream truck business called "Cow Tipping Creamery" in Austin and Dallas Texas. This information could be useful under the metaphor section for another example. More information about this business can be found at https://www.cowtippingcreamery.com/locations-1[[User:Sknightt2|Sknightt2]] ([[User talk:Sknightt2|talk]]) 01:04, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

:"Attract more viewers to the article" doesn't align with Wikipedia's goals.
:For both the event and the business, if they are notable enough to merit an article on Wikipedia, then it would be appropriate to mention them. See [[WP:EVENT]] has inclusion criteria for events and [[WP:CORP]] has inclusion criteria for businesses. Otherwise there is no need to mention, or link to, the websites of non-notable events or businesses. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] <small>([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])</small> 01:15, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
: Why have an article available online if you don't want to attract more viewers? WP:5p2 WP:5p5[[User:Sknightt2|Sknightt2]] ([[User talk:Sknightt2|talk]]) 16:29, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

::Not sure how you think advertising related events and products would "attract more viewers", but Wikipedia is [[WP:NOTDIRECTORY|not a company directory or listings magazine]]. If the Columbus event gets any press coverage after it's happened then it might be worth writing about to show how cow tipping has entered popular culture, but we shouldn't be advertising it in advance using only primary sources. --[[User:McGeddon|McGeddon]] ([[User talk:McGeddon|talk]]) 16:51, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

:::I am not trying to advertise, all I wanted to add was examples of cow tipping being a figure of speech. I just included the links to give some background on my examples. [[User:Sknightt2|Sknightt2]] ([[User talk:Sknightt2|talk]]) 20:56, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

::::If you aren't trying to advertise, it's hard to tell, because you have twice stated an objective of "attract more viewers". Wikipedia doesn't need to attract more viewers, it's consistently [[List of most popular websites|in the top 10 world's most visited sites]]. And [https://www.google.com/search?q=cow+tipping Wikipedia is the top Google search result] for "cow tipping". Wikipedia attracts people wanting to add irrelevant links to increase their exposure. It's a constant battle to prevent and remove such linkspam. I'm not saying that was your purpose, but Wikipedia is never to be used as a publicity platform. Both of those links would be considered spam and quickly removed if they were added to the article.
::::I looked at both pages you suggested. They don't demonstrate (to me at least) that "cow tipping" is a figure of speech. Those sites are simply naming themselves after a well-known myth. In fact, those two pages don't even mention the phrase "cow tipping" anywhere except in the page title or URL. Rather than examples, we'd need a reliable source that discusses "cow tipping" as a figure of speech before we could mention it in the article. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] <small>([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])</small> 23:06, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
:::::As far as its being used as a metaphor or figure of speech, this is touched on in the article. There are more examples, often from business: [http://www.allaboutagile.com/enterprise-tipping-and-the-rules-of-three/][http://www.customerontheedge.com/2006/11/cow_tipping.html][http://www.mrss.com/lab/sacred-cow-tipping-when-best-practices-arent-best/]. But I don't think the article would really be better by piling these on, and as Anachronist notes, linkspam/[[WP:REFSPAM|refspam]] are definitely a detriment. - [[User:Brianhe|Brianhe]] ([[User talk:Brianhe|talk]]) 23:22, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

== February 2017 spike in views ==


{{edit semi-protected|Cow tipping|answered=yes}}
There was a sudden one-day jump on 9 Feb to 10x normal pageviews [https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&start=2017-02-05&end=2017-02-12&pages=Cow_tipping]. Anybody know why? - [[User:Brianhe|Brianhe]] ([[User talk:Brianhe|talk]]) 18:27, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
Change from: "Cow tipping is the purported activity of sneaking up on any unsuspecting or sleeping upright cow and pushing it over for entertainment. The practice of cow tipping is generally considered an urban legend,[1] and stories of such feats viewed as tall tales.[2]"
: {{Ping|Brianhe}} No, but if you're interested in peak page views, you might be interested in [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)#Peak_page_view_statistics|this discussion I started re: the display of peak page stats]]. ---[[User:Another Believer|<span style="color:navy">Another Believer</span>]] <sub>([[User talk:Another Believer|<span style="color:#C60">Talk</span>]])</sub> 19:11, 22 February 2017 (UTC)


To: "Cow tipping is the purported activity of sneaking up on any unsuspecting or sleeping upright cow and pushing it over for entertainment. Cow tipping refers to pushing over cows only and does not include pulling methods such as grabbing cows by the neck or legs as is done in [[steer wrestling]], or methods which use ropes to push over cows such as cow casting.[https://guide2agriculture.com/casting-of-animals/] The practice of cow tipping is generally considered an urban legend,[1] and stories of such feats viewed as tall tales.[2]"
== Popular culture honorable mentions ==


[[User:Jax0987|Jax0987]] ([[User talk:Jax0987|talk]]) 20:08, 20 July 2023 (UTC)Jax0987 [[User:Jax0987|Jax0987]] ([[User talk:Jax0987|talk]]) 20:08, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
I don't know if this is enough for the main page, but I think the card "Friendly Bartender" in the game Hearthstone qualifies as a honorable mention. A cow/tauren bartender which emotes "Don't forget to tip your tauren." when summoned and "Bottoms up!" when attacking is hilarious. IMHO. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2001:470:71B1:A:FF:0:0:1|2001:470:71B1:A:FF:0:0:1]] ([[User talk:2001:470:71B1:A:FF:0:0:1#top|talk]]) 15:50, 6 May 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:{{notdone}}. The purpose of the lead section is to summarize the body text. Steer wrestling isn't mentioned in the body text, and casting is already covered in the next paragraph of the lead. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] <small>([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])</small> 20:45, 20 July 2023 (UTC)


== Semi-protected edit request on 21 July 2023 ==
== Animal husbandry edits ==


{{edit semi-protected|Cow tipping|answered=yes}}
[[User:Kingofaces43|Kingofaces43]] Regarding edit about musterers being able to knock over cows with horses or by hand from their tail. I completely understand the revert as it is unsourced but I feel like it's important information to have somewhere. I've searched for a source to validate information but it is something that is a somewhat common practice for rural farmers, at least here in Australia. I want a bit of guidance on where the rules lie as I feel it's a non-trivial piece of information to not have. The entire article makes it seem like it's not possible to tip over a cow without external tools but it's just not the case, we've done it just recently with some cows in late November and it was a single person taking them down (2 Santa Gertrudis cows). I completely understand the need for sourcing for content but I doubt you'd ever find a source for this despite it being a reality; so where do we sit as a community where we want to share information about the practice. Looking forward to your advice, cheers.
Change from: "These claims, to date, cannot be reliably verified,[5] with Jake Swearingen of Modern Farmer noting in 2013 that YouTube, a popular source of videos of challenges and stunts, "fails to deliver one single actual cow-tipping video".[32]"


To:"These claims, to date, cannot be reliably verified,[5] with Jake Swearingen of Modern Farmer noting in 2013 that YouTube, a popular source of videos of challenges and stunts, "fails to deliver one single actual cow-tipping video".[32] While several YouTube videos show examples of people taking down cattle, these involve pulling on the neck or legs of the animals, like [[steer wrestling]], and not pushing the cattle over."
[[User:Mjohn425|Mjohn425]] ([[User talk:Mjohn425|talk]]) 00:20, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
:Please know that [[WP:OR]] is policy here. We can't add unsourced information. Another core policy is [[WP:DUE]]. When you say it's difficult to find a source, that means we generally won't include the information even if it exists. It's basically the sources that need to say it's important, not editors. [[User:Kingofaces43|Kingofaces43]] ([[User talk:Kingofaces43|talk]]) 00:43, 14 March 2020 (UTC)


[[User:Jax0987|Jax0987]] ([[User talk:Jax0987|talk]]) 13:09, 21 July 2023 (UTC)Jax0987 [[User:Jax0987|Jax0987]] ([[User talk:Jax0987|talk]]) 13:09, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
== Is Cow Tipping Really an Urban Legend? ==
:{{done}}, but using different words. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] <small>([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])</small> 23:01, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
::But why? Steer wrestling really has nothing to do with cow tipping. --[[User:ZimZalaBim|<span style="color:black">Zim</span><b style="color:darkgreen">Zala</b><span style="color:black">Bim</span>]] <sup style="color:black">[[User talk:ZimZalaBim|talk]]</sup> 02:58, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
:::Because these are examples of getting a cow to fall to the ground from a standing position. I agreed with the proposal that it's a worthwhile and encyclopedic distinction to make. The article already includes a lengthy description of "casting" as a means to topple a cow, so why not a brief mention steer wrestling? It's just one additional sentence. I don't have a strong view on this, so in the spirit of [[WP:BRD]] I'll leave it up to {{U|Jax0897}} to make a case for restoring the sentence removed by {{U|ZimZalaBim}}. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] <small>([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])</small> 14:34, 27 July 2023 (UTC)


== No Youtube cow tipping evidence ==
In 2010 I was touring North Carolina parks. Somewhere in the mountainous region I stopped at a small-town inn for gas and dinner. They had a pleasant homely restaurant there and, being Saturday night, the place was full of locals. When I was done and stepped out to my car, a bunch of young adult boys approached me. They proposed I join them for "cow tipping," as they were bored and had nothing to do. As a foreigner with no experience in these parts I had no idea what cow tipping is, so they explained it to me. They were quite disappointed when I excused myself, and I gather the rules of the game require a minimum participants.


If anyone was cow tipping it would be on youtube. It's not. With all those cameras out there, and people putting everything under the sun, and moon on youtube, there's no cow tipping. Best statistical proof in the world. [[Special:Contributions/2600:8807:5400:28F0:4B1:D602:D837:1F70|2600:8807:5400:28F0:4B1:D602:D837:1F70]] ([[User talk:2600:8807:5400:28F0:4B1:D602:D837:1F70|talk]]) 09:57, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
Anyway, I at least learned what cow tipping is. But in light of this experience, is it not too rush to state in a Wikipedia article that cow tipping is an urban legend? [[User:Dov elyada|Dov elyada]] ([[User talk:Dov elyada|talk]]) 13:07, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
:No. --[[User:Hob Gadling|Hob Gadling]] ([[User talk:Hob Gadling|talk]]) 18:09, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
::Alright, alright, I'll explain. Wikipedia is based on reliable sources and not on something some random person got told by other random people. They obviously wanted to fool you, and they were disappointed because they thought they had not succeeded. But they had, sort of. --[[User:Hob Gadling|Hob Gadling]] ([[User talk:Hob Gadling|talk]]) 18:15, 6 November 2020 (UTC)


== Citation Needed request ==
== 'Missing' or 'offline' sources on wayback machine ==


First paragraph; fourth sentence
Hey so I noticed in some of the archive pages that info was removed due to the source going offline.
web.archive.org has snapshots of some of these sources.


"The concept of cow tipping apparently developed in the 1970s, though tales of animals that cannot rise if they fall has historical antecedents dating to the Roman Empire."{{Citation needed|date=January 2024}}
Example: in Archive 1, there's a mention of a Dead BC link at the bottom of the page (http://www.zoology.ubc.ca/~biol438/Reports/CowTip.PDF)
[[Special:Contributions/2601:543:4200:DE0:4C94:9E86:A6D8:2E9D|2601:543:4200:DE0:4C94:9E86:A6D8:2E9D]] ([[User talk:2601:543:4200:DE0:4C94:9E86:A6D8:2E9D|talk]]) 22:50, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
There is a snapshot of this pdf here, a month or 2 before the PDF was taken offline: https://web.archive.org/web/20050829105439/http://www.zoology.ubc.ca/~biol438/Reports/CowTip.PDF


== Difficulty ==
I think we should fix/update some of the sources with this method.


The article makes the case that a single person tipping a cow is impossible. However, in pop culture it is often depicted as difficult. The most famous depiction of cow tipping is in Tommy Boy, where the title character fails to tip a cow. I can’t remember if he said that he was never successful, or had just succeeded once. Perhaps this is part of the myth. In fact, it sounds a lot like a prank in a similar vein to snipe hunting. Should this angle be added to the article? [[User:Tinynanorobots|Tinynanorobots]] ([[User talk:Tinynanorobots|talk]]) 13:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
[[Special:Contributions/108.36.220.94|108.36.220.94]] ([[User talk:108.36.220.94|talk]]) 02:34, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 16:24, 17 July 2024

Good articleCow tipping has been listed as one of the Agriculture, food and drink good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 6, 2007Articles for deletionKept
May 22, 2016Good article nomineeListed
Did You Know
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on June 3, 2016.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that according to scientists, cow tipping would require between 4 and 14 coordinated people, unlike the depiction of the urban legend in film and television?
Current status: Good article

Semi-protected edit request on 20 July 2023

[edit]

Change from: "Cow tipping is the purported activity of sneaking up on any unsuspecting or sleeping upright cow and pushing it over for entertainment. The practice of cow tipping is generally considered an urban legend,[1] and stories of such feats viewed as tall tales.[2]"

To: "Cow tipping is the purported activity of sneaking up on any unsuspecting or sleeping upright cow and pushing it over for entertainment. Cow tipping refers to pushing over cows only and does not include pulling methods such as grabbing cows by the neck or legs as is done in steer wrestling, or methods which use ropes to push over cows such as cow casting.[1] The practice of cow tipping is generally considered an urban legend,[1] and stories of such feats viewed as tall tales.[2]"

Jax0987 (talk) 20:08, 20 July 2023 (UTC)Jax0987 Jax0987 (talk) 20:08, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done. The purpose of the lead section is to summarize the body text. Steer wrestling isn't mentioned in the body text, and casting is already covered in the next paragraph of the lead. ~Anachronist (talk) 20:45, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 21 July 2023

[edit]

Change from: "These claims, to date, cannot be reliably verified,[5] with Jake Swearingen of Modern Farmer noting in 2013 that YouTube, a popular source of videos of challenges and stunts, "fails to deliver one single actual cow-tipping video".[32]"

To:"These claims, to date, cannot be reliably verified,[5] with Jake Swearingen of Modern Farmer noting in 2013 that YouTube, a popular source of videos of challenges and stunts, "fails to deliver one single actual cow-tipping video".[32] While several YouTube videos show examples of people taking down cattle, these involve pulling on the neck or legs of the animals, like steer wrestling, and not pushing the cattle over."

Jax0987 (talk) 13:09, 21 July 2023 (UTC)Jax0987 Jax0987 (talk) 13:09, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done, but using different words. ~Anachronist (talk) 23:01, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But why? Steer wrestling really has nothing to do with cow tipping. --ZimZalaBim talk 02:58, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Because these are examples of getting a cow to fall to the ground from a standing position. I agreed with the proposal that it's a worthwhile and encyclopedic distinction to make. The article already includes a lengthy description of "casting" as a means to topple a cow, so why not a brief mention steer wrestling? It's just one additional sentence. I don't have a strong view on this, so in the spirit of WP:BRD I'll leave it up to Jax0897 to make a case for restoring the sentence removed by ZimZalaBim. ~Anachronist (talk) 14:34, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No Youtube cow tipping evidence

[edit]

If anyone was cow tipping it would be on youtube. It's not. With all those cameras out there, and people putting everything under the sun, and moon on youtube, there's no cow tipping. Best statistical proof in the world. 2600:8807:5400:28F0:4B1:D602:D837:1F70 (talk) 09:57, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Citation Needed request

[edit]

First paragraph; fourth sentence

"The concept of cow tipping apparently developed in the 1970s, though tales of animals that cannot rise if they fall has historical antecedents dating to the Roman Empire."[citation needed] 2601:543:4200:DE0:4C94:9E86:A6D8:2E9D (talk) 22:50, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Difficulty

[edit]

The article makes the case that a single person tipping a cow is impossible. However, in pop culture it is often depicted as difficult. The most famous depiction of cow tipping is in Tommy Boy, where the title character fails to tip a cow. I can’t remember if he said that he was never successful, or had just succeeded once. Perhaps this is part of the myth. In fact, it sounds a lot like a prank in a similar vein to snipe hunting. Should this angle be added to the article? Tinynanorobots (talk) 13:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cow_tipping&oldid=1235086639"