Talk:Bulgarians in North Macedonia

For the statements that "Bulgarians are non-recognized" there is no citation, please provide a reliable source for the statement Maktruth (talk) 16:44, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Bulgarians by Origin

Has anyone ever thought that the 60,000 people who went to bulgaria just wanted an education? That doesnt mean that they are actually bulgarian, i have a cousin who did the same thing. Shes not bulgarianP m kocovski (talk) 06:14, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I still haven't got references for the exact number. But if someone has signed a declaration that he/she's Bulgarian, doesn't this mean they're Bulgarian? But if they simply study in Bulgaria and have no Bulgarian passport and have not signed anything, then they're obviously not Bulgarian. --Laveol ^T 12:58, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, they say "Bulgarian origin". And no, signing a declaration does not make you Bulgarian, especially if it's just for an EU passport or a better education. E.g. you could have a (racist) Macedonian at your school with a Bulgarian passport that calls you a Tatar. Why would you want someone like that to be Bulgarian? BalkanFever 13:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Why do you think I want someone like that? And why do you think I want someone to be Bulgarian? Actually a signing of declaration does make you Bulgarian - that's why you sign it. You have a choice - to sign or not to sign. And its your personal choice. You say it's because of this and this, but that is your opinion (OR) and the fact is they sign it. I happen to know people that do it because they do feal Bulgarian and can feel Bulgarian without being arrested or something worse only in Bulgaria. But that's OR (and POV) again since this is my view. The fact is that they have signed it. And no, you cannot say they have no Bulgarian roots or something because of the complicated history of the region and the dynamic, let's call it, demographic situation. A big part of the inhabitants of the region did self-identify as Bulgarians at some point of the XX century so I don't see what's the problem. --Laveol ^T 13:15, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Dynamic demographic situation, yes. It's dynamic to the point where people would declare anything that would stop them getting shot, and in more recent times they declare anything that benefits them (like education, and now EU). If Serbia were in the same position as Bulgaria, you would see the same thing. It's not a question of "am I Bulgarian or not?", it's a question of "am I European or not?" BalkanFever 13:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Say you. And I meant the dynamic demographic situation in the past, not at present. At the time when people declared (or were forced to declare) a different ethnicity every 10-15 years. --Laveol ^T 13:42, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm pretty sure the Macedonian government can find the people who apply for Bulgarian passports, so Bulgarians not declaring that they're Bulgarian on the census (while doing it on Bulgarian paper) because they're "scared" doesn't really apply. So 60,000 - 4,000 = 56,000 people telling Macedonia they're Macedonian and telling Bulgaria they're Bulgarian. And then they go and live in Germany or France. And no, our census is not rigged to keep Bulgarian numbers down - otherwise Albanians would be 10%. BalkanFever 13:52, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Noone says anything about your census - stop trying to put words in my mouth. Provide me a source with how many of them go to live in France, Germany etc and how many stay here. Again this is what you say. It's nice that you have an opinion on this, but how's your opinion relevant? --Laveol ^T 14:34, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually it is not about where they live. Many go to Bulgaria to study, get an education so that they can have better lives. (macedonia is not the greatest country for those kind of thins.) like the cousin that i have. But the 1417 number is the people who identify as bulgarian, although it is a bit low say, 4,000 people identify as bulgarians at the Maximum. This article must mention that the majority of people who identified as bulgarians began to identify as macedonians. Bulgaria got into the EU and THat is why people want citizenship, only a few might identify as bulgarians.P m kocovski (talk) 23:29, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Changing the name and expanding the article

Since RoM isn't a synonym of the whole geographic area Macedonia, I'd like to propose the article to be renamed to "Bulgarians from Macedonia".I wish to add information about the Bulgarians from all parts of the region but dividing the information into several articles is useless, IMO, especially when everything could be at one place.In the eventual new article I've the desire to include detailed information about the Bulgarian population through the centuries(since the first Bulgarian penetration till nowadays) but this is impossible under the current circumstance.Therefore I suggest:

• the article to be renamed to "Bulgarians from Macedonia"
• to be included information about the Bulgarian presence in the region under different administrative control
• to be included information the recent activity of the Bulgarian from Macedonia and their organisations
• to be included information about some hot issues but of course only on the basis of sourced information

All opinions will be appreciated. Feel free to give new ideas. --BulgarianPatriot (talk) 14:28, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

And we might still have an article especially for Bulgarians from RoM - from the establishment of the Socialist Republic to present day. As for the other article - I absolutely agree. Don't forget to use mainly Western sources though :) --Laveol ^T 16:00, 18 July 2008 (UTC)