Talk:Sidney Poitier

Nationality

On the first sentance of the article on Sir Sidney Poitier, shouldn't it say he is a Bahamian-American actor, instead of African-American actor? He has close ties to the Bahamas, as well as the United States. Although born in the United States, he grew up in the Bahamas, and has been the Bahamian ambassador to Japan since 1997. Jordancelticsfan (talk) May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Concur. This is what is generally used for actors born or raised in other countires which their parents are from, regardless of status as a citizen now. His birth in the US was circumstantial. - BilCat (talk) 16:40, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

A quick look at the history of the article shows that "Bahamian American" or a similar form has been used for most of the article's history. At some point it was changed to Bahamian American with a hidden "US citizen comment". This is unnecessary, as the first line of the Bahamian American states "Bahamian Americans are citizens or residents of the United States of Bahamian ancestry." That fits Ambassador Poitier, does it not? - BilCat (talk) 16:40, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Sir Sidney Poitier

Please be advised that as the holder of an honorary, not substantive knighthood, Poitier is not referred to as Sir Sidney Poitier. As an honorary KBE, he entitled only to the postnomials after his name, i.e. Sidney Poitier, K.B.E.. Thanks. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 17:15, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

This isn't true. Portier's knighthood isn't honorary as the Bahamas uses the British honors system... as a citizen he is entitled to use "Sir" before his name. Similarly, if a holder of an honorary knighthood becomes a citizen of a Commonwealth realm their knighthood automatically becomes substantive. -- MichiganCharms (talk) 22:30, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Sir Sidney Poitier is entitled to be styled as 'Sir' as he is a Bahamian citizen, which also makes him a Bahamian subject, as The Bahamas is a Commonwealth realm, with Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II serving as Queen of the Bahamas. This means Sir Sidney's knighthood is substantive, and not honorary. Laggan Boy (talk) 19:59, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Per MOS:HONORIFIC, the Sir should not be used before his name. Read this guideline before making any further changes. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 17:37, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Poiter was born to parents who were both British subjects and as such he is by birth, and by present current citizenship of the Bahamas, as entitled to be awarded a full Knighthood as any other British citizen, past, or present.

Unlike some countries, whose own 'natives' didn't get citizenship of their own country until as late as 1924, people of any race or colour born within what was the British Empire gained full British citizenship by birth, either due to location of birth, or by descent from their parents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.10.248 (talk) 08:51, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

To Bahamian TV, he's Sir Sidney. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYv5QUT_zKI (Though the ZNS presenter uses the recent American pronunciation of his surname, 'Poy-teer', which isn't what he was called at the Oscars when he won Best Actor: in the Sixties it was 'Pwa-tee-ay', French style.) He presumably did use his correct title when acting as Bahamian ambassador to Japan and UNESCO, since he was representing the Sovereign. But he doesn't normally use it in the US.

For one thing, the US is a republic. For another, he was hurt by the foolish, fashionable white-liberal / black-radical claim that he was a sell-out and an Uncle Tom, back in the late Sixties and Seventies. This Observer article from 2000 comically records how he always drove Cadillacs so that no one could say he drove a Rolls or Mercedes, but when the crummy Cadillac broke down and the black GM mechanic who came to fix it treated him like the enemy because of the 'sell-out' thing, it turned out to be a bit of a false economy. The article also records how Poitier (now driving a smooth BMW) takes the interviewer to lunch at legendary LA celebrity eaterie Spago, where the waiters, at 3pm, with lunch service long over, jump up and go, 'Lunch, Mr Poy-tiere? No problem. Let me show to your favourite table,' and the chef himself comes by and goes, 'Sidney. Always good to see you. I have a wonderful salad. A dressing to die for.' Because in the US a celebrity name is equivalent to an aristocratic title and the class system is at least as rigid, vicious and stratified as pre-1914 Europe while pretending to be egalitarian.

https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2000/oct/08/features.magazine37

Khamba Tendal (talk) 18:29, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Hello.

I see that someone has taken the initiative and robbed Sir Sidney of his proper style. This is wrong.

If Sir Sidney, as a Bahamian, isn't entitled to his pre-nominal, then why is Sir Cornelius A. Smith? Is it because he's the governor-general and Sir Sidney isn't? Please rectify this, or I might be moved to do so myself.

O.ominirabluejack (talk) 19:44, 8 March 2020 (UTC)O.ominirabluejack

See my replies to the thread below. We do not operate on the basis that something happened in Case A so it must also apply in Case B.

Essentially, Poitier is not Sir Sidney because he was NOT a Bahamian citizen at the time the knighthood was awarded (1974), and since becoming a Bahamian citizen he has never applied to have the knighthood converted from honorary to substantive. The ball is in his court. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:11, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Knighthood and Sir

This issue seems never to get resolved. As some point out above, Poitier is a citizen of the Bahamas, which recognises Queen Elizabeth II as its monarch. The default position for a Bahamian is that a knighthood from the Queen would automatically come with the right to use the prenominal "Sir". He's also a citizen of the USA, but that does not detract in any way from his Bahamian citizenship.

Yet we're now being shown sources that say clearly his knighthood was honorary, meaning he gets KBE after his name but no Sir before. How can this be so? Can the Queen divide his being into two halves, the Bahamian half and the American half, and bestow a knighthood on his American half but not on his Bahamian half? I just don't get it. Can anyone explain this paradox to me? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 02:16, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

By the way, I have searched for the official notification of his knighthood in the London Gazette and its Supplements, so that we can put this to rest one way or another once and for all, but have come up empty-handed. Maybe others have better searching skills. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 02:40, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

@JackofOz and IRN-Dumas: It seems you two have opened two different discussions about this topic at the same time on the two different ends of this talk page, one on the top and one on the bottom. And it seems that IRN-Dumas has answered Jack of Oz's question: Poitier does not seem to be a Bahamian citizen, which would clear the confusion. I have now removed the "Sir" from his name. Spike (talk) 11:08, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

I've now moved IRN-Dumas's post to the bottom, where it belongs. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:43, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

In its extensive obituary piece on tonight's BBC News at Six, the BBC chose to refer to him as "Sir Sidney Poitier". Just sayin'. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:16, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Knighthood and Bahamanian Citizenship

Whomever stated the following to me did so anonymously, but this seems to confirm that Sidney Potier's KBE was, at least at the time of its awarding, honorary, rather than substantive:

"Knighthood is honorary not substantive, see:

   a) https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11245449
   b) https://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/25/iraq.franks.knighthood
   c) https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-06-14-mn-2281-story.html

Also, confirmed to me by email from Guy Blanch (Investiture Office Senior Honours and Investiture), Clerk Central Chancery of the Orders of Knighthood, St James’s Palace London SW1A 1BH (TEL: 020 7930 4832) (EMAIL: investitures@ccok.x.gsi.gov.uk)"

I believe that the confusion is caused by the claim that Poitier possesses Bahamanian citizenship, which would typically entitle him to a substantive knighthood. HOWEVER, I suspect the claim that Poitier possesses Bahamanian citizenship is actually false. The UK did not recognize dual citizenship until 1981, by which point the Bahamas had become independent. The Bahamas has very strict rules regarding the recognition of dual citizenship, which Poitier would not meet. He was a natural born citizen of the United States, and, unless anybody can prove otherwise, it appears that the only citizenship he possesses is American citizenship. Therefore, I am removing the claim that Poitier possesses Bahamanian citizenship unless it can be substantiated.

Hopefully this settles the question. IRN-Dumas (talk) 02:33, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for that. A few points:

• The National Archives link says it's Honorary, but then goes on to refer to Poitier as "a United States and Bahamian citizen". That is as useful to this discussion as a bag full of armpits.
• The other two are American newspaper reports. With all due respect, they're not the world's most accurate sources when it comes to the finer points of British nomenclature. I can remember when Bob Geldof was awarded his honorary knighthood and we were all told by the media that it did not come with a Sir, yet those very same media then blithely ignored their own advice and now his Sir is rusted on despite being completely wrong.
• British laws about dual citizenship apply only to people who are British citizens or residents. They do not apply to people who are citizens or residents of other countries. Whatever other citizenship he may have, if the Bahamas recognises Poitier as a Bahamian citizen, that is all that matters as far as this discussion is concerned. I understand that Bahamian law may have changed, and would/may have reflected British law before achieving independence. It's possible Poitier did not qualify when the knighthood was awarded but does qualify now.
• "The Bahamas has very strict rules regarding the recognition of dual citizenship, which Poitier would not meet." - can you provide some source for this statement? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:59, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

  In order to be recipient to a substantive, rather than an honorary, knighthood, he would have to be a citizen of a commonwealth realm (i.e. either the UK or the Bahamas):

  • When Poitier was born, there was no such thing as Bahamanian citizenship; Bahamanians instead were British citizens. Being born in the US, he was granted natural US citizenship at birth. He would not have been granted British citizenship at birth. At the time the UK did not allow for dual citizenship, so the US citizenship would be the only one he could have held.
  • For people in Poitier's situation, the Bahamas allows for dual citizenship up to the age of 21, at which point one must renounce one. Otherwise, dual citizenship is not allowed. Poitier was already over the age of 21 when the Bahamas became a state, and there is no indication that he renounced his US citizenship.
  • As he had US citizenship, but could have had neither British nor Bahamanian citizenship, his knighthood would have had to have been honorary.

  Thankfully information about both the defunct British citizenship laws and the current Bahamanian citizenship laws is more plentiful than information about Poitier's knighthood, so you should be able to easily find some if you want to.

  Hopefully, fourteen years later, this citizenship point might have cleared up the confusion around his knighthood. IRN-Dumas (talk) 07:19, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

  So, you're saying he has only ever been an American citizen, never British and never Bahamian. I guess we'll leave it at that unless more definitive information comes to light. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:47, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

  And yet, he was the Bahamian Ambassador to Japan for 10 years 1997-2007, and Bahamian Ambassador to UNESCO for five years 2002-2007. I know that non-citizens are sometimes appointed honorary consuls, but I've never heard of a non-citizen being appointed a country's ambassador. Why wouldn't he have been referred to as "honorary ambassador", in line with the "honorary consul" designation? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:56, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

  I'm unconvinced about the claim of Bahamian dual citizenship law. I read [1] and the constitution [2]. Someone can renounce their Bahamian citizenship having turned 21 and if they acquired or plan to acquire some other citizenship. If they acquire or exercise the rights of some other citizenship, the governor general may by order deprive them of their citizenship. And there is a set process to follow to deprive someone of their citizenship. But I see no suggestion it happens completely automatically.

  I'm not planning to study this in depth, but I have looked into the Malaysian situation before, and the Malaysian constitution has a similar provision. In Malaysia, people generally assume that someone automatically looses their Malaysian citizenship if they acquire or keep another citizenship after 21. But all evidence I've seen is this is not the case. Instead, the government has to go through the process to remove your citizenship. If the government finds out you have dual citizenship after 21, it almost definitely will happen as a matter of public policy. But it still requires the right person in the government finds out. And more to the point, since it's a matter of public policy rather than law, i.e. the law only allows rather than requires the government deprives someone of their citizenship. The government is free to not do so.

  I strongly suspect the situation is the same in the Bahamas. What happened with Sidney Poitier, I have no idea but it seems to me it's most likely perfectly possible he did retain his Bahamian citizenship if the government chose not to deprive him of it despite him having dual citizenship, which they were probably perfectly entitled to do so. I suspect it's also possible he was given Bahamian citizenship again, if he did lose it, article 13 seems to give parliament the right to grant citizenship in other cases although I didn't find what laws have been passed regarding that and what provisions they have about someone having another citizenship.

  Note that while in many cases, the constitution does not allow someone to acquire Bahamian citizenship if a citizen of some other country, this does not apply to article 3 section 1 and section 2 of the constitution, and section 2 may apply to Poitier. It also doesn't seem to apply to article 13 in the sense that parliament could make it part of their laws, but I see nothing to suggest they have to. Also article 13 seem to preclude any automatic deprivation of citizenship acquired under article 3 section 1 and 2 other than by changing the constitution.

  Nil Einne (talk) 07:21, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

• Like User:IRN-Dumas, I have also contacted the Central Chancery of Knighthood and have been advised the following:
  • The knighthood was honorary, "based on his nationality at the time"
  • It was dated 1 July 1974, when formal approval was given
  • Honorary knighthoods are not gazetted. These days they are published on the Honours Lists page on www.gov.uk, but they were not aware of the practice in 1974
  • Whichever government proposed the award, "recommendations for Honorary Awards are put forward by the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs to The Sovereign"
  • "If an honorary award recipient subsequently acquires a Realm nationality then the recipient can make representation for its conversion into a substantive award to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office." - there was no suggestion that Poitier has ever made such a representation. This would be consistent with the fact that Poitier does not use the KBE postnominal.
• I'm happy to share the email with any interested editors.
• So, we should terminate our speculations about what Poitier's citizenship would have been or must have been, and be satisified with the information that, as far as the Foreign Secretary's Office was concerned, Poitier was not a citizen of a Commonwealth Realm in 1974. Whatever may have happened in the years since then is essentially irrelevant. Unless Poitier has applied to convert the award to substantive. Which he hasn't. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:23, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

  Hello.

  I commented above concerning the knighthood or the lack thereof, but I see that quite a bit else has been going on on that score down here. I understand what is being said, but my question is whether or not we are certain that the application for conversion from honorary to substantive is an absolute requirement. Not to belabour the point, but I seem to remember that when Sir John Paul Getty Jr. acquired British citizenship, the Queen herself remarked to him that he could use his title thereafter. I didn't get the sense that a formal application was required beforehand.

O.ominirabluejack (talk) 20:02, 8 March 2020 (UTC)O.ominirabluejack

I can only refer you to the email from the Central Chancery of Knighthood that I quoted above. In particular: (a) The knighthood was honorary, "based on his nationality at the time", and (b) "If an honorary award recipient subsequently acquires a Realm nationality then the recipient can make representation for its conversion into a substantive award to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office."

I know of other people who were knighted while not being Commonwealth citizens, who subsequently gained such citizenship, and who have NOT applied to have the knighthood converted, and who remain NOT Sir. Whatever you may have read about Getty and the Queen is not relevant here, because it is undoubtedly not the full story. Even she cannot cause a non-Sir to become one by simply saying so. The UK monarchy does not operate on an "off with his head" basis.

Poitier is a KBE, but is NOT a Sir. The ball remains in his court to make application to change that, but it's now been 45 years since he was knighted and he shows enormous disinterest in making any such application. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:07, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

The lead is way too long

Should either be shortend or move the info down.

What should be removed from the lead? Jim Michael (talk) 17:18, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Nominated for the Main Page at WP:ITNC

-Ad Orientem (talk) 16:28, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

What is the argument that Sidney Poitier lived on a plant-based diet?

What is the argument that Sidney Poitier lived on a plant-based diet? Online documentation seems to suggest that he swore off alcohol and red meat and 'ate vegetables at every meal' and was health conscious. He had been seen at vegetarian and animal rights events in East Coast cities. There seems to be documentation that he followed health-motivated semi-vegetarian diets without alcohol but that he suffered medical maladies that health vegans had been promised would be statistically very rare. Comfort foods like ice cream seem to have found their way into his diet. MaynardClark (talk) 17:57, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

References

Poitier had both American and Bahamian Citizenship.

Although born in the US, which automatically gave Poitier US Citizenship, he mostly lived his early life in the Bahamas, and therefore he also had Bahamian Citizenship. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:204:CF80:7440:5C97:5CED:781E:6260 (talk) 18:39, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Various sources state he was a dual Bahamian-American citizen, plus he served as an Ambassador of The Bahamas, therefore, he was a citizen of the Bahamas not just an American. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.205.249.42 (talk) 20:50, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Knighthood was HONORARY

Editors are starting to change text/categories back to substantive knighthood. Already established (see discussions above) that the knighthood was honorary. 107.127.46.63 (talk) 19:07, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Why was it only Honorary? The Bahamas, of which he was a citizen, is a Commonwealth realm with Queen Elizabeth II as head of state, it is my understanding that an honorary knighthood is only applicable to a citizen of country of which the Queen is not head of state? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.205.249.42 (talk) 22:22, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Lead sentence

I have boldly changed the lead sentence from "Bahamian-American" to "American". He was born in America and is a native born American citizen. He spent most of his adult life living and working in the United States, and he received the Presidential Medal of Freedom. IMO the lead sentence should describe him simply as American and not as a hyphenated American. I have changed it; let's discuss here. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:25, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

That doesn't change the historical fact that Poitier also had Bahamian Citizenship. https://www.latimes.com/obituaries/story/2022-01-07/sidney-poitier-dead

"In 1997, Poitier, who had dual American-Bahamian citizenship, was appointed as the Bahamian ambassador to Japan. When Hurricane Dorian hit the Bahamas in September 2019, Poitier said he had 23 relatives who went missing." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:204:CF80:7440:5C97:5CED:781E:6260 (talk) 19:29, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

And yet again I change it back to Bahamian-American — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.205.249.42 (talk) 01:22, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Amend Last major star of the Golden Age of Hollywood?

I question if its accurate to say Poitier was a 'major star' during the Golden Age of Hollywood (which would be the 30s to the 50s). Not really. He was definitely a major star in 1958 with The Defiant Ones but primarily his major status era was the 1960s onwards. 2607:FEA8:5CA1:8F40:FC88:61B9:29F9:AF4E (talk) 20:33, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

By that definition, we should exclude Sophia Loren because although she was a major star in the 1950s, she won her Oscar in 1961. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:204:CF80:7440:5C97:5CED:781E:6260 (talk) 21:39, 7 January 2022 (UTC)