Talk:David Cameron

He's not a Lord yet!

Cameron will be made a life peer, according to Sky News. But it hasn't happened yet. Editors should avoid adding unsourced claims about this. cagliost (talk) 11:18, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

"His Majesty has also been pleased to confer the dignity of a Barony of the United Kingdom for life upon David Cameron." Via https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-david-cameron-appointed-foreign-31424363 Farleysmaster (talk) 11:25, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps a more reliable source: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/13/suella-braverman-rishi-sunak-cabinet-reshuffle-conservatives-uk-politics-latest?page=with:block-655203d98f083a4130e4931f#block-655203d98f083a4130e4931f arthomnix (talk) 11:30, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Yep, that's where I saw it first, but it's not really a news post. I think the Mirror is fine for reporting on a press statement. Farleysmaster (talk) 11:39, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

He is now, the King has already approved his Barony this morning at around 10. The Independent and The Telegraph all reported that. Although it does seem a bit weird and wild that his peerage is directly approved by the King, without going through the House of Lords vetting process (and with no territorial designation). Boreas Sawada 12:21, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes he is a lord now. The territorial designation will come after there is agreement with the garter king of arms. As Lords vetting process is concerned, it usually is not required when a sitting prime minister recommends a peerage to the King. That process normally takes place in honours list (new year and birthday) or ex-prime minister's resignation honours. Kartik07wiki (talk) 12:38, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for this timely elaboration ;) Boreas Sawada 12:47, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Kartik07wiki peerages and other honours are actually awarded year round, this is part of the 2023 Special Honours. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 03:59, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

"His peerage has not been gazetted."

Actually it has officially been announced/published and the King fulfilled the PM's wishes on the morning of 13 November 2023. https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/peerages-awarded-to-former-prime-ministers/#:~:text=Former%20UK%20prime%20minister%20David,foreign%2C%20commonwealth%20and%20development%20affairs. Jaymailsays (talk) 02:04, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

This is all wrong, he is not a Lord yet. His peerage has not been gazetted. When he is given a peerage, there will be reliable sources stating his title, e.g. "Lord Cameron of Wherever", and stating the date on which he was given a peerage. No such sources yet exist, because he has not been made a Lord yet. cagliost (talk) 12:53, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

He can be a Lord before there are reliable sources. We just can't put it on the wiki record. Farleysmaster (talk) 14:07, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

You are wrong about this; he's a peer of the realm from the moment the Palace sends the notification to the London gazette (which has happened already). Weirdly, it doesn't actually have to be published, it's effective from the moment it is sent. Espatie (talk) 14:32, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

How do you know that has happened? Provide references. cagliost (talk) 15:24, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Feels like we're halfway there now:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/13/hes-not-an-mp-so-how-can-david-cameron-return-to-the-cabinet

"The Downing Street announcement of Cameron’s job said that the former prime minister was immediately being made a life peer, meaning he will sit in the House of Lords." Farleysmaster (talk) 16:34, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

The US government also regards him as a Lord now. Boreas Sawada 11:42, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

His title should be updated. From BBC: ″Lord Cameron, as he is now known as of his appointment to the House of Lords on Monday, had been out of Parliament since he stood down as prime minister in 2016." ahmad87 19:05, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Cameron became a member of the House of Lords on 17 November 2023 [1]. cagliost (talk) 18:29, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Post nominal PC

Hi, is Cameron not entitled to the post nominal letters PC as a Member of the Privy Council? For examples, see Robin Butler, Baron Butler of Brockwell and John Cameron, Lord Abernethy A3811 (talk) 15:15, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

This is addressed in the edit history (which I'm assuming is correct...): " The post-nominal 'PC' is only used by those who hold the title of 'The Right Honourable' outside of the Privy Council eg. Peers below the rank of Marquess etc. For example, The Rt Hon. Boris Johnson does not use 'PC' but The Rt Hon. The Lord True PC does." Farleysmaster (talk) 15:34, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Does this mean that the post-nominals should be added once he has been made a peer? arthomnix (talk) 17:47, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

one would assume, given he would be a lord below the rank of Marquis and also a sitting member of the Privy Council JM (talk) 16:51, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 17 November 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Restoring WP:SNOW close by Launchballer. Not moved. (non-admin closure) Fermiboson (talk) 13:06, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

---

David Cameron → David Cameron, Baron Cameron of Chipping Norton – Per WP:NCPEER GnocchiFan (talk) 13:45, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

• "There are several exceptions to these rules. / Peers who are almost exclusively known by their personal names" - news articles still say 'David Cameron'. Castlemore7 (talk) 13:57, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose move. He falls under the exception of "Peers who are almost exclusively known by their personal names". O.N.R. ^(talk) 13:58, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per O.N.R. and WP:COMMONNAME. estar8806 (talk) ★ 14:10, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose and I think most of these life peers are in a similar situation. Killuminator (talk) 14:52, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Unnecessary disambiguation. Celia Homeford (talk) 15:10, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
• He is a member of the House of Lords and thus deserves to have his page designated with the title bestowed on him. The title will now be on his passport, bank details etc etc therefore the Wikipedia page should be as well. JCroft04 (talk) 15:27, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  Glad to hear he's got a new passport. But when did you get to see it? I think you have to pay extra for a quick turnaround these days, don't you (unless they're on strike for five weeks, like they were back in April)? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:11, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Per WP:COMMONNAME 134.225.31.226 (talk) 15:51, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Per WP:COMMONERNAME, just like Lord Mandy of Foy and Hartlepool, in the County of Blairshire, etc. etc. But when did the Chippy bit get signed off? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:15, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  Just today, it seems. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:09, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - he is, at least at the moment, known almost exclusively by his personal name, so that should be the article title per WP:NCPEER arthomnix (talk) 17:14, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - having the politics David Cameron at base name is fine. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 17:17, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Considering David Cameron's recent conferment as a life peer, it's appropriate to move the page to David Cameron, Baron Cameron of Chipping Norton during his tenure as Foreign Secretary. This aligns with WP:NCPEER, ensuring our titles reflect current and formal roles. While Cameron is known widely by his personal name, the temporary inclusion of his peerage title in the Wikipedia page title would accurately represent his present official status, adhering to both accuracy and relevancy in titling. Post his tenure, we can revert to just David Cameron, adapting to his most common name in public discourse. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 17:30, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  So WP:NCPEER says:

  *There are several exceptions to these rules.

  • Peers who are almost exclusively known by their personal names, e.g. Bertrand Russell (not "Bertrand Russell, 3rd Earl Russell").

  How many people know him as "David Cameron, Baron Cameron of Chipping Norton"? And the name in the infobox is something else again, "The Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton": is that another version that's never used? Or when is it used? Not sure that Peter Mandelson's page changed to Baron Mandelson, of Foy in the County of Herefordshire and of Hartlepool in the County of Durham in October 2008. But that may have just been an oversight, of course. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:02, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  Unlike Bertrand Russell, Cameron is a recent appointee to a significant government role, making his peerage title more relevant. This distinction justifies a temporary move of the page to include his peerage title, reflecting his current official status. Additionally, the precedent set by Nicholas True, Baron True supports this approach. True's page title includes his peerage, despite him being the only Nicholas True with an article, indicating a practice of recognising current governmental roles in conjunction with peerage titles. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 18:56, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  Catherine Ashton was the EU's High Representative for Foreign Affairs from 2009 to 2014. She was known as Catherine Ashton throughout that time and her Wikipedia article stayed at that title despite her being also Baroness Ashton of Upholland and a former Leader of the House of Lords. Opera hat (talk) 19:18, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  That was then, this is now, and Nicholas True, Baron True is a better comparison as the only other peer in the Cabinet. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 19:29, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  The idea that if a peer has a current government role this has to be in their Wikipedia's page title is a doctrine you've just made up. It hasn't been applied to Lord Offord of Garvel or Lord Benyon or Lord Davies of Gower who are in the present government. 51.52.8.226 (talk) 19:20, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  No, it's my opinion, and I've never pretended it was anything other. Neither of those are in the Cabinet. How do you explain Nicholas True, Baron True, who actually is? ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 19:24, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  I agree. What you say sounds true, not True. True's in the cabinet? No, surely that's not true. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:32, 17 November 2023 (UTC) (no, it really was true, thanks to our shortest-serving British prime minister. And it seems he's still there)

  Giving special wait to his "recent" appointment to the government and his brand new peerage is WP:RECENTISM in the purest form. estar8806 (talk) ★ 19:24, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  David Cameron, Baron Cameron of Chipping Norton still retains "David Cameron" as a primary part of the title. This approach ensures that he remains the undoubted primary topic and is easily searchable under his widely recognised personal name. The addition of the peerage title doesn't obscure or replace his common name; rather, it complements it by reflecting his current official status and role, which is a significant aspect of his public identity at this moment. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 19:39, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  "David Cameron" still retains most of his real name, David William Donald Cameron? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:08, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose WP:NCPEER "Peers who are almost exclusively known by their personal names". He is most notable as Prime Minister, when he was known as David Cameron. cagliost (talk) 18:03, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
• Weak support per WP:NAMECHANGES. When someone undergoes a name change, we should pay due consideration and give additional weight to the name that sources use after the name change. Sources like the BBC, Telegraph, etc., have begun referring him as "Lord Cameron"; the BBC in particular refers to him almost exclusively as "Lord Cameron" outside of article titles. The reason why my support is weak is because his official title has been known for only a day, and I think additional time (maybe a couple of months) is needed to assess how reliable sources refer to him as time goes on. I also agree somewhat with Neveselbert: I think the fact that he has undertaken this title specifically to become a minister differentiates his situation somewhat from Thatcher, etc. Aoi (青い) (talk) 19:23, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think this argument works. They refer to him as "Lord Cameron" as they would previously use "Mr Cameron". But no one's proposing to rename the article to "Lord Cameron". cagliost (talk) 21:56, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose for all the reasons repated many times above. —ThorstenNY (talk) 22:35, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - see Alec Douglas-Home (not Alec Douglas-Home, Baron Home of the Hirsel), Peter Mandelson (not Peter Mandelson, Baron Mandelson), Jack McConnell (not Jack McConnell, Baron McConnell of Glenscorrodale) and Chris Patten (not Chris Patten, Baron Patten of Barnes) etc. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:46, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose - Precedent should not be "peers serving in the cabinet", but "former Prime Ministers, who have be elevated to the peerage", including the example of Lord Home, with the most recent example of Baroness Thatcher confirming this. However, I would support an immediate follow-up proposal to have Lord Cameron redirect to this page, with a new page for Lord Cameron (disambiguation) created for the other Lords Cameron. No other Lord Cameron will have the prominence and relevancy that the newly elevated Lord Cameron had with his tenure as PM, and will have as Foreign Secretary. JustAnotherEditHere (talk) 23:26, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose His personal name is the common name. There's no need to attach that train of a title to his name. This form of naming also has precedent: Anthony Eden (instead of Anthony Eden, 1st Earl of Avon), Margaret Thatcher (instead of Margaret Thatcher, Baroness Thatcher), etc. Keivan.f^Talk 01:05, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose the move per arguments above. The personal name David Cameron remains the common name and the articles for the other modern PMs with peerages are also still titled by their personal common names (see Thatcher, Attlee, Macmillan, etc). ThatRandomGuy1 (talk) 01:15, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
• Uninvolved comment Just so everyone is aware, an attempt at WP:SNOW close was made an hour or so back, which was reverted. Fermiboson (talk) 03:56, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Which I stand by. I saw 15 oppose arguments and 3 supports of varying weakness, none of which were accurately based on policy.--Launchballer 10:01, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

• It should be closed on grounds of SNOW cagliost (talk) 05:56, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

  Fair point. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:48, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. He's clearly known as David Cameron. In general, I don't think we should rename life peer articles by adding their title to the article name if they were notable before receiving their peerage. HandsomeFella (talk) 10:00, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose per all above; WP:COMMONNAME and the exceptions to WP:NCPEER. JM (talk) 11:47, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Snowclose no way this passes. 16 opposes based on policy, 1 weak support and 1 support. JM (talk) 11:49, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 19 November 2023

The monarch is king Charles 3rd 86.22.116.153 (talk) 23:00, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 02:46, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I suspect this was about the mentions of Elizabeth II in the infobox; she was the monarch during the time period in question. O.N.R. ^(talk) 14:53, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Lord Cameron or Baron Cameron

Following on from @DeFacto's edit, is Cameron's title "Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton" or "Baron Cameron of Chipping Norton"? In his introduction ceremony Cameron appears to be officially entitled "Baron Cameron of Chipping Norton". However Cameron himself states "I David, Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton...". I think this also counts as a WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH. I'm not sure exactly how the whole title system around peers work, but as fair as i'm aware isn't Baron technically the official title and Lord the informal one?

Another issue is sourcing. "Lord Cameron" is popping up everywhere, but "Baron Cameron" only comes up with a few results from some questionable sources, including the Oxford Mail (merely a regional paper so probably not the most reliable), The Spectator's Steerpike (opinion) and an opinion piece in The Guardian. Some other sources (Politics.co.uk and LBC) mention "Baron Cameron" in the headline but only use "Lord Cameron" in the article bodies, which iirc means they can't be used to source the title. Does anyone know of a reliable source with "Baron Cameron of Chipping Norton"? ThatRandomGuy1 (talk) 21:36, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Nevermind, a reference from Hansard has now been added. Then again, would that still count as original research? ThatRandomGuy1 (talk) 21:39, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

A baron is a type of lord. All barons are lords but not all lords are barons. Britain also has earls and dukes and viscounts and marquesses, all lords. All are commonly referred to as "lord", especially in the context of sitting in the House of Lords. Roughly equivalent to "mister" or "Mr." in general, and also "member" in the House of Lords. Hansard source is not OR, it's a primary source. Generally editors like secondary sources better, but primary sources are fine in many cases, especially for something like this when the source is Hansard. JM (talk) 16:46, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

The London Gazette is the usual primary source for this sort of thing – now added for Cameron's case. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 12:19, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

The Name of This Page

The name of this page should change its name to David Cameron, Baron Cameron of Chipping Norton to reflect the standard of other British peers. StrawWord298944 (talk) 20:39, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

See WP:NCBRITPEER and WP:COMMONNAME. David Cameron alone is the common name here. estar8806 (talk) ★ 22:13, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

WP:NCBRITPEER is absurdly inconsistent. Nobody refers to Lord True as "Nicholas True, Baron True" or even "Baron True". The guidelines need revising. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 22:16, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Deficit

Can anyone get a citation or a cn on "Cameron has been credited for helping to modernise the Conservative Party and for reducing the United Kingdom's inherited national deficit" ? 78.146.230.75 (talk) 16:38, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

"As prime minister" needs to be added to that section. Readers could otherwise assume Cameron was credited for those things as foreign secretary. --195.99.227.0 (talk) 18:52, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

War mongers

War mongering does not appear to be in the historical facts regarding Cameron. Doccameron (talk) 01:26, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

If you're referring to the Strip, I don't see it mentioned on Joe Biden's page either. --195.99.227.0 (talk) 14:30, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

"Recommended him for a life peerage"

Shouldn't this be rewritten? Cameron now has a peerage. So this should be changed to:

"During the November 2023 cabinet reshuffle, Conservative prime minister Rishi Sunak appointed Cameron foreign secretary and he was subsequently given a life peerage as The Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton, allowing him to sit in the House of Lords." 195.99.227.0 (talk) 14:28, 18 December 2023 (UTC)