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The administrator who originally imposed the contentious topic restriction (the "enforcing administrator") affirmatively consents to the change,^[a] or is no longer an administrator;^[b] or
The contentious topic restriction was imposed (or last renewed) more than a year ago and:
- the restriction was imposed by a single administrator, or
- the restriction was an indefinite block.

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a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE,
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Any administrator who revokes or changes a contentious topic restriction out of process (i.e. without the above conditions being met) may, at the discretion of the Arbitration Committee, be desysopped.

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On community review

Uninvolved administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") and uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN") should revoke or modify a contentious topic restriction on appeal if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed, or
the action is no longer reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption.

On Arbitration Committee review

Arbitrators hearing an appeal at a request for amendment ("ARCA") will generally overturn a contentious topic restriction only if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or
compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action.

^ The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.
^ This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

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The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications and appeals state:

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ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-enwikimedia.org).

Modifications by administrators

No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without:

the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or
prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below).

Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped.

Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied.

Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions.

Important notes:

For a request to succeed, either

(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or

(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA

is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.

While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
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All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue.

Information for administrators processing requests

Thank you for participating in this area. AE works best if there are a variety of admins bringing their expertise to each case. There is no expectation to comment on every case, and the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) thanks all admins for whatever time they can give.

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Dicklyon

Apteva's topic ban clarified; Born2cycle warned; Dicklyon reminded. Gatoclass (talk) 09:55, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Dicklyon

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Apteva (talk) 07:01, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Dicklyon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article titles and capitalisation#All parties reminded

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

30 April 2013 Have you (twice)
29 April 2013 named editor, discussion directed at and about editor, not content
29 April 2013 "you're wrong"
29 April 2013 "you mis-parse it"
28 April 2013 you, your ... agenda
28 April 2013 you
27 April 2013 named editor, failure to assume good faith (I am of course he or she also)

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

This is an editor who has been warned countless times not to personalize discussions, and insists on continuing.

Warned on 26 April 2013 by Apteva (talk · contribs)
Warned on 26 April 2013 by Apteva (talk · contribs)
Warned on 30 April 2013 by Apteva (talk · contribs)
Warned on 4 January 2013 by Apteva (talk · contribs)
Warned on 3 January 2013 by Born2cycle (talk · contribs)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This creates a very toxic editing environment that does not encourage and welcome participation.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[1]

Discussion concerning Dicklyon

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Dicklyon

The underlying problem is embodied in the person of Apteva, not in me pointing that out. Shouldn't we insist that he respect the wishes of the community in banning him from his continuing anti-MOS disruption such as this section blanking?

I ask here again, can his topic ban be rephrased to include the part that the closer omitted from what the community had overwhelmingly endorsed? See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive244#Continuing topic ban violations by Apteva Dicklyon (talk) 14:28, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal – clarify Apteva's topic ban by adding the bolded phrase or something like it:

Apteva is topic banned indefinitely from modifying or discussing the use of dashes, hyphens, or similar types of punctuation, broadly construed, including but not limited to at the manual of style and any requested move discussion, and from advocating against the MOS being applicable to article titles.

As for Born2Cycle's comments below, note that he advertises his long-running campaign at User:Born2cycle#A goal: naming stability at Wikipedia and at User:Born2cycle/FAQ. When he ramps it up as he recently did here and continues to do here, am I not allowed to comment on that? It doesn't seem that his various warnings (including Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article titles and capitalisation#Born2cycle warned) and pledges (including User:Born2cycle/pledge) and sanctions (most recently Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive245#Continued tendentious editing by Born2cycle) over the last several years have had much moderating influence on this disruptive behavior of domination of move discussions. Dicklyon (talk) 18:49, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking of personalization, I cracked up my wife with my quip at the Yosemite ranger station last summer, "Who can prevent forest fires?"

Statement by Ohconfucius

It really is too early for silly season, but this request is all rather surreal. It's very possible to take things too literally, and it looks very much like a good example. Apteva has carefully chosen diffs every instance of the word "you", then uses it to accuse Dick of making a "personal" argument in the sense prohibited by the Arbcom ruling. All I see is civil discussion. Such use of "you" was most often innocent, when Dick was trying to address an answer to or comment on what Apteva said. Methinks Apteva is a month too late with this. -- Ohconfucius ^{ping / poke} 11:32, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, B2C, beware of the Boomerang. I find myself often questioning the utility of posting to Apteva's talk page. I don't know if he's feels that a particular user is bullying him, as it is obvious from his reaction to DL, or are they so burnt out that they have become generally ultra-sensitive to criticism: but this removal, within 6 minutes, may indicate a strong streak of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. That, plus the diffs supplied by Apteva in evidence against DL – particularly the first two – strongly suggests a serotonin top-up (i.e. a holiday in the sun) would be largely beneficial. -- Ohconfucius ^{ping / poke} 18:55, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I just saw this and this as other recent examples of an overwrought editor's objection. It's surreal.
Also, since Apteva already launched this AE against DL, this looks very much like harassment. Apteva, you really do need to take that well-earned holiday in the sun. -- Ohconfucius ^{ping / poke} 01:48, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As to B2C, I was johnny come lately to the Kelly Yeomans suicide article, but I do and did object to B2C carry on his advocacy in that connection. I also made a complaint to an admin at about the time the RM was closed. Note that he is the top contributor to that discussion by a very long margin. He entered the discussion, and was there pushing his point of view against near-unanimous opposition right until it was closed. That indicated B2C still doesn't know when to stop, although before I got involved in that discussion, others had already complained to him on his talk page, to no avail. -- Ohconfucius ^{ping / poke} 12:37, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Re these comments: a block isn't punitive if its objective is to prevent disruption in future. It seems obvious by now that B2C will only stop flogging the dead horse when either the stick or the carcass has been removed. Only the carcass has been dragged away. Note that I did not support a full topic ban on RMs for B2C when it was first proposed, but the recidivism now seems to warrant a broader ban. Another animal will appear before long and be beaten to a carcass, so I believe on that basis some pre-emptive block or formal topic ban would be desirable. -- Ohconfucius ^{ping / poke} 11:33, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@TP: The experiment has failed all right. B2C the self-styled "expert" has been gaming the rules at every turn since you gave him a slap on the wrist and a virtually unenforceable ruling. He saw through that when he awarded you that "Nobel Peace Prize" that you were foolish enough to accept. He has blanked warnings (with a rather dismissive "keep count somewhere else") from fellow editors, whom he knows full well he can afford to ignore without incurring sanctions. Expertise is fine when offered as advice you can accept or refuse; B2C's "expertise" is of the rather "down your throat" sort that mny of us have said we can do without. -- Ohconfucius ^{ping / poke} 16:10, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Melanie: You put your finger on the problem. In theory, B2C ought to know that receiving a pile of complaints on his talk would be a cue to moderate his behaviour. But no. It seems that in practice, B2C's there waiting for a Sysop to come along (whether independently or because of being seized) and draw that bright red line. He knows then and only then does he absolutely need to stop. He can keep advocating and flogging, and removing talk page comments with dismissive remarks like "keep count somewhere else" and "archiving" until then; and even when a Sysop comes, it's only to deliver a warning and not a block. So we have our work cut out. -- Ohc ^{digame / ¿que pasa?} 03:53, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Johnuniq

I suppose admins will have noticed at least some of the background which has involved enormous discussions in multiple areas. I ask that admins considering this case think of what would benefit the encylopedia, rather than basing a decision on whether "Have you read it?" is an abuse of a talk page. A tiny part of the background:

AE: Dicklyon reported by Apteva October 2012; result: withdrawn.
RfC/U: Apteva December 2012.
ANI January 2013; result: Apteva topic banned.
AE: Apteva reported by SarekOfVulcan January 2013; result: Apteva warned.

Johnuniq (talk) 11:59, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (SmokeyJoe)

The listed warnings are not less personal or confrontational than the listed violations. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:02, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that we have or want rules on the use of the second person singular pronoun, or the use of names. They are especially useful when thanking, for example. I don't feel that I know Apteva or Dicklyon very well, but have noticed, in reasonable debating, that Apteva comes across as tense, and Dicklyon comes across as direct, perhaps terse readable as snide. This combination is prone to inflame. I don't think blocks are useful in calming. The two could each be asked to not address or reference the other. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:06, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Apteva

This is a very serious issue that must be dealt with in an effective manner, and passing it off as otherwise is ludicrous. For example, while this editor is the worst offender that I have seen, should they be allowed this pattern of editing, it is like a cancer that spreads to other editors. I suggest a one month block (oddly, the editor in question says they are on a wikibreak), escalating to longer blocks if the pattern continues. Apteva (talk) 16:01, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To SmokeyJoe, the correct place to use you and an editor's name is on their talk page, not at an article or project talk page. All of Dicklyon's comments that are directed to me need to be solely and only on my talk page, not snide remarks at an RM discussion. Apteva (talk) 16:05, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To My very best wishes, the comments do a great deal of harm. There are two methods of decision making used, consensus and parliamentary, and neither permit directing comments to an individual. One requires directing comments to the group, the other to the moderator. There are no exceptions. Apteva (talk) 18:38, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To Johnuniq, obviously the AE complaint in October 2012 should not have been withdrawn, as doing so may have reinforced the idea that there was nothing wrong with the violations that had occurred, and a specific remedy should have instead been suggested. Apteva (talk) 18:44, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To My very best wishes, it is not a problem if an editor says "I disagree with your argument because..." once, and it can be forgiven, but it is prudent to point it out to them on their talk page that it would have been better to say "the argument" instead of "your argument" so that it does not become a habit. When it does become a habit, it becomes a very serious problem. As to "it might be a good idea to politely tell someone that they are wrong and explain why (assuming they are capable of accepting someone else criticism and improving)." I have brought this up ad nauseum (and quite politely) on the editor in question's talk page. I need someone to make it more important to them, so that they will stop. Apteva (talk) 19:27, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This, by another editor, not Dicklyon, is the sort of post that I am objecting to. "I take it you haven't bothered to follow any of the links to BMI." Apteva (talk) 01:58, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To Omnedon, incivility is a related, but different subject from personalization. I am only addressing personalization here. Apteva (talk) 03:07, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To Omnedon, personalization if not as much about "talking directly to other editors" as it is talking about other editors, when the subject is not any editor, as it is on the talk page of an article or project page. See talk page guidelines. Apteva (talk) 16:36, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To ErikHaugen, absolutely. "since you understand it much better than I do, maybe you should take the next crack at it" excludes anyone else who might want to "take the next crack". That comment belongs only and solely on the editor in question's talk page, not on the article or project talk page. This is basic talk page protocol. Apteva (talk) 17:09, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Still more. Deleted with the edit summary "noise".[2] Dicklyon began by saying "I didn't want to mention you by name", which is a thought that does not need to be said, and while commendable, using "you" is no better, nor is any personalization. This edit[3] was at first deleted by another editor and then un-deleted. "can you please just stop it" belongs only and solely on the talk page of whichever editor, such as myself, that this was directed to. Apteva (talk) 21:53, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A narrowing of my topic ban would be a very good move. The current topic ban is totally political and totally absurd and intended solely to silence dissent. Topic ban everyone who does not agree with one side and then pretend there is consensus. The real topic ban that should have been proposed and the restrictions that should be imposed, is to not propose any page moves based on hyphens and dashes for one year, and remove the absurd restriction to one account, that is severely impacting my ability to improve the encyclopedia. Those are the two outcomes that I request with regard to myself. Apteva (talk) 19:18, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

B2C is well known for being wordy. That in itself is not a problem. All discussions can be closed regardless of how wordy they are. Apteva (talk) 14:36, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As to the truth that MOS does not apply to titles, the idea that it does was rejected as absurd when it was first proposed, and only implemented by topic banning those who disagreed. It was brought up at AT in January and rejected. Obviously the suggestion that it does needs to be removed from the MOS. Stifling dissent by topic banning is absurd and even juvenile. I have not to my knowledge said anything about the topic any time in the last month, and this is a non-issue that does not address any activity that needs to be curtailed. Apteva (talk) 14:36, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As to Dicklyon's last paragraph about Smokey the Bear, the two words that jumped out at me were "last summer". Was this going on last year, long before I started complaining, and became an in-joke at that time that they were using "you" too much, instead of correcting the problem? Apteva (talk) 14:42, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The allegation of "has been disruptive in discussions" is ancient history, and there has been no recent allegation of disruption that needs to be corrected. This is an issue that has already been corrected. The correct phrase is "was disruptive", and even that was disputed (and I offer as evidence that taking 500,000 bytes to decide is evidence that bringing the allegation was but that my conduct was not). There is absolutely no reason to add a sanction where none is needed.

Comment by Beyond My Ken

I suggest that reviewing admins considering sanctioning Apteva for filing an entirely frivolous enforcement request, and consider Dicyklon's suggestion that Apteva's topic ban be adjusted per the original community consensus. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:21, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

One should note Dicklyon is the one who filed the RfC/U against Apteva that resulted in the community sanctions. Apteva filed a frivolous request regarding another editor back in January, which lead to a lot of ill will, after that editor was responsible for initiating the AE case about Apteva noted by Johnuniq above. The one who seems to be personalizing disputes the most is Apteva by filing these types of frivolous requests against various opponents.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 16:43, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Gato, the only topic ban issued since the case allowed the editor to reference the MOS in order to justify edits in articlespace. In other words, general discussion of the application of MOS were not allowed, but only that which is necessary to explain an edit the editor made to an article. However, I think you could consider just imposing a ban on filing AE requests. Apteva's AE requests have been rather POINTy and frivolous, demonstrating clear battleground behavior.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 19:00, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by My very best wishes

Perhaps I used to significantly stronger wording and accusations in another subject area, but the comments in the diffs look a little tense but more or less harmless. I do not see any reason for sanctions.

@Apteva. Yes, I partly agree: comment on content, not on the contributor. However, I do not really see a huge problem if someone tells: "I disagree with your argument because..." or "your edit is inconsistent with RS policy because...", instead of telling "this argument" and "this edit". Catching others on minor technicalities is not really a good idea. And remember, they could be right: perhaps this is your problem. In fact, it might be a good idea to politely tell someone that they are wrong and explain why (assuming they are capable of accepting someone else criticism and improving). But this is just a general idea; I only saw your diffs.My very best wishes (talk) 19:15, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but I did not see this ANI post. Frankly, having so protracted disputes about minor technical issues is beyond imagination and disruptive. Just to clarify, I am not familiar with this case, but only looked at the diffs provided above and do not see them too disruptive per se, although the whole dispute is obviously disruptive. My very best wishes (talk) 16:09, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by uninvolved A Quest for Knowledge

The majority of diffs presented in this RfE are not persuasive of any gross misconduct. However, there are three that appear to cross the line:

Clearly, there seems to be some sort of personalization of this dispute that should not have been personalized. Perhaps a reminder/warning to Dicklyon to not personalize disputes might be the best way of handling the situation. A short break (perhaps a month) might also be helpful. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:45, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Born2cycle

As a regular target and witness of Dicklyon's inappropriately personalized commentary on article/WP talk pages, I must concur with this statement of A Quest For Knowledge (talk · contribs), which I simply repeat:

However, there are three [diffs] that appear to cross the line... Perhaps a reminder/warning to Dicklyon to not personalize disputes might be the best way of handling the situation.

To Quest's list of three line crossings, I would also add:

Those references to me in terms of Dicklyon's opinion that what happened at Yogurt was me getting "my way" is WP:BATTLEGROUND language. It certainly does not reflect how I view these situations. That Dicklyon sees it that way (and not just with me) is a problem, and explains why he makes the inappropriately personalized comments on article/WP talk pages that he does. That needs to be addressed.

I think the following suggestion from Quest is going too far, though it would be appropriate if the problematic behavior continues after the warning: " A short break (perhaps a month) might also be helpful."

I strongly oppose any BOOMERANG result to the petitioner of this request, as the underlying complaint has reasonable basis, and BOOMERANGing would discourage others from reporting inappropriately personalized commentary on article/WP talk pages, and this would effectively sanction (in the approve sense) such behavior, not only from Dicklyon, but from others as well. --B2C 16:00, 1 May 2013 (UTC) series of edits to this statement done. --B2C 16:23, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to Dicklyon

Dicklyon asks above: "am I not allowed to comment on that? ". Sure, if you think I or anyone else has been behaving inappropriately, bring it to our attention on our respective user talk pages. Not on article/WP talk pages. On article/WP talk pages, please refer only to substance, including arguments actually made, not what you imagine to be someone's motivations, whether or not you believe your opinion is backed up by what they say on their user page. By the way, if you think anything on my user page suggests anything inappropriate, please bring that up too... on my user talk page. Not anywhere else.

This is the key thing. Don't bring up negative stuff about specific WP users on article/WP talk pages. That's all. It reflects poorly on all of us. --B2C 20:23, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a specific suggestion: When commenting on article/WP talk pages, ignore the signature. That is, reply only with comments that would make sense and mean the same thing regardless of who posted the comment to which you are replying. Thus, if they say something helpful, replying with a "thank you" is fine, despite the personal "you" reference. But if you're going to make a comment that only makes sense because of other stuff that person has written elsewhere, it almost certainly is not appropriate to bring that up on that article/WP talk page, especially if the intent is to convey something negative.
For example, if someone says something which seems to contradict what they said or did elsewhere, question the user about the apparently contradictory behavior on that user's talk page, not on the article/WP talk page. --B2C 20:55, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I also oppose Dicklyon's proposal to gag Apteva with respect to advocating against the applicability of MOS on article titles. That's a very controversial issue that has no consensus, and to seek muzzling others about that, especially when he is a proponent of one side and Apteva is a proponent of the other, is just another example of Dicklyon treating WP as a WP:BATTLEGROUND. --B2C 22:04, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dicklyon is at it again, making personalized comments about me on a policy talk page instead of addressing content [4]:
- "B2C has no problem with ambiguity in titles as long as there are not two articles fighting for the same title; he defines that to be unambiguous."***NOTE: (that's not true but that's beside the point)
- "He has been very consistent about that, as you can see from the history of the "precision" criterion, in which he has consistently worked to say that precision is bad and that titles should have just enough to distinguish the articles, not to point out their topics."
- "B2C has not advocated doing away with recognizability, but has several times to rephrase it, like in 2009 when it tried to say what precision was good for: "Good article titles are precise enough to indicate the topic unambiguously, but not more so." he changed it into a more negative and discouraging form "Good article titles are only as precise as necessary to indicate the name of the topic unambiguously."
- "That was one subtle step, but he keeps after it, like in his proposal at Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles/Archive_36#Proposal: clarifying PRECISION, which seeks to "clarify" by getting rid of any consideration for ambiguity in titles, by changing it to add the bolded part here: "Titles usually use names and terms that are precise (see below), but only as precise as necessary to identify the topic of the article unambiguously with respect to other Wikipedia titles." "
- "Clearly, B2C has no problem with ambiguity, only with article title collisions."
- "Looking at real cases where B2C pushes a narrow interpretation might; he typically does not have consensus on his side, but always pretends to."

I'm sorry, but what place do any of Dicklyon's opinions about me or anyone else have on any policy talk page? --B2C 04:26, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dicklyon is at again (yes again).

It's not a good scheme, but until we can turn back the clock on some of B2Cs changes to titling guidelines, it's the mess we're stuck with.

Why is it okay to personalize in the middle of an RM discussion like this[5], never mind that the ad hominem attack claim is entirely without basis. --B2C 22:24, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Violation?

It has been suggested that my behavior in RM discussions recently has been problematic in some manner. Part of my pledge is based on the assumption that I don't always recognize when my behavior is problematic, and so I pledge to pay heed when others tell me it is. So if my behavior has been problematic recently, I'm not aware of where or why, and nobody has told me. Regardless, I'm quite confident there is no problematic behavior occurring now. I only say this because more than one person has suggested there is a problem and actions should be taken.

The closer of the AN about me recognized all this and closed accordingly:

Meaning: An uninvolved admin may ban [B2C] from a particular discussion he is involved in on a case by case basis after a warning that can be enforced with a block between 24 hours and the duration of the discussion he is disruptive in. This includes discussions about the close of a move or article titles discussion anywhere on Wikipedia. [6]

For the record, I have not received any warnings from any administrator about any of my behavior anywhere, and I'm not aware of being disruptive in any discussions any where, certainly not any ongoing ones. To block or ban me in any way for behavior in some closed discussion in which I was not even warned seems purely punitive, inconsistent with the previous AN, and not conducive to improving anything on WP. Thank you. --B2C 00:06, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

People are citing statements made by editors involved in the discussion in question. These are not warnings from uninvolved administrators on my talk page, which is what I'm due, I believe, presuming no egregious behavior on my part, before any kind of penalty is imposed. As I've noted elsewhere, the outcome of the suicide RM discussion was obvious early. My involvement was one of curiosity pursued with those who chose to participate. If I had been told my behavior was problematic I would have stopped. --B2C 04:56, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Omnedon - Regardless of what I've been told many times by many people, what does that have to do with whether I deserve to be blocked or punished otherwise for specific behavior in a particular discussion without a warning from an uninvolved administrator as was stated in the AN as quoted above? --B2C 20:51, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Huw - you seem to misunderstand my point when you say, "His suggestion in response is that those expressing concern needn't participate in the discussion ". I'm saying those who think a discussion is "done", or think it has gone off on inappropriate tangents or whatever, but is still ongoing, don't need to participate. In fact, I can't imagine continuing in a discussion that I thought was done, just to complain that others are still continuing. If others want to continue, what is it to me? Why should I complain about them wanting to continue? I just don't get that. --B2C 20:56, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Omnedon

Having looked at all of the diffs, I see no statements that cross the line of incivility. I've been asked by editors if I had "even bothered to read such-and-such", and things of that nature; and I admit it was annoying to me. And yes, Dicklyon tends to be rather direct when he disagrees, perhaps pushing the envelope a bit. But requesting a block for these diffs seems extreme to say the least. The term "thin-skinned" comes to mind. I've seen far worse wrongly excused and even justified. As a side note, B2C should perhaps not be among those casting stones here, given his own past record here (mentioned above). Omnedon (talk) 00:01, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

[addressed to Apteva]

I understand that the focus is personalization, but a request for a block simply for talking directly to other editors in a discussion seems even more incredible. I had assumed, incorrectly, there there was a civility component here. Omnedon (talk) 12:10, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's interesting that you would direct me to read the talk page guidelines, given the nature of your complaint. And yes, it is a good practice to focus on content and not editors. But it seems to me that Dicklyon was talking to editors in most cases. Omnedon (talk) 12:56, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

B2C, you have been told many times by many people in many discussions over many months. You seem to choose not to hear or acknowledge. Omnedon (talk) 11:57, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

TParis, I can't remain silent on this. B2C's behavior hasn't changed one bit since the ANI. I am certainly not going to go canvass admins to get someone to warn him, as that would not be appropriate; but just waiting on someone to notice doesn't work either. The solution you offered did not work. And I do not believe that the consensus was as you describe. Omnedon (talk) 14:06, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

TParis, further -- how did he "follow it"? B2C did nothing different whatsoever. No uninvolved admins came in to deal with the situation, and B2C's disruptive behavior continued unabated. Omnedon (talk) 20:32, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Silly, arbitrary restraints? Where was it ever made clear that editors could go and ask for intervention? Haven't I already made it clear that I would have requested such help if I thought it was held to be acceptable? No one else did that either, and I would contend it's likely for the same reason that I didn't. In any case, B2C's behavior involves tendentious editing over a period of time -- so, on "day one"? Certainly in future, assistance will be sought; but even so, your "solution" still has the issues that have been identified by Huwmanbeing and Gatoclass. Omnedon (talk) 21:38, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You should have defined the situation more clearly; no one involved asked for such aid, though B2C was repeatedly asked to stop by several editors. Your sarcasm is unnecessary. As it happens I have never had to deal with an editor that was under sanctions -- even ones as weak and unhelpful as the one you imposed -- against the consensus of the discussion, I might add, though you claim otherwise. Omnedon (talk) 23:05, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So basically you support B2C's ability to ignore the requests of other editors to moderate himself, until an admin becomes involved, simply because you require that. That's precisely what happened in the referenced discussion. And in fact someone did request assistance of Diannaa, except that the discussion was closed, and nothing was done. To be clear -- as has been stated by others, I'm sure you had the best of intentions. But I am not the only one who sees it as ineffective. Since I am merely a lowly editor, others will clearly need to deal with this. Omnedon (talk) 23:55, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tony1

This is a waste of everyone's time. Tony (talk) 03:42, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ErikHaugen

These diffs don't demonstrate anything that violates the arbcom remedy. Apteva seems to think that using the word "you" is personalizing; consider this diff supplied as evidence, where DL uses the phrase "you" when suggesting to another user that he go ahead with his proposal: "That all sounds good, but since you understand it much better than I do, maybe you should take the next crack at it." If Apteva thinks this is an example of personalizing disputes, or even of problematic behavior, then perhaps Apteva should not be bringing AE requests. I think sanctions for frivolous or vexatious requests might be an overreaction, but I think at least a warning is in order, as this does have the appearance of a vendetta and is at least a waste of everyone's time.

DL gives Apteva several warnings in the other diffs supplied. I don't think this is in itself necessarily a problem either; others have commented that that should only happen on user talk pages or AN or here or whatever, but this isn't personalizing the dispute, so the arbcom remedy isn't relevant.

Apteva: Do you stand by this diff? Do you really think this is evidence of problematic behavior, in any way? ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 16:41, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, it does not exclude anyone, and no, it does not belong on the user's talk page. That is two editors discussing how to edit an article, one making a request of another, in a collegial and constructive manner. Please don't waste AE's time with this kind of thing again. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 08:38, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Huwmanbeing

I've looked at the diffs that Apteva provided; though a few indicate annoyance, I'm afraid I don't see behavior that rises to a level that requires sanction; in at least a couple of cases I confess I can't even ascertain what inappropriate personalization or incivility the diff is meant to indicate (unless simply using the second-person pronoun is considered a violation, which would seem a bit odd).

The corrective actions described by Gatoclass sound appropriate as regards Apteva and Born2cycle. In particular, a reasonably short ban followed by "escalating bans for future breaches" would I think help interrupt what's clearly been a long-running cycle without being unnecessarily severe. ╠╣uw [talk] 01:50, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

One extra point: regarding Born2cycle's statement above that no one gave him any indication that his behaviors were problematic: [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], etc.

His suggestion in response is that those expressing concern needn't participate in the discussion [13] (a suggestion he's previously made elsewhere [14]) ╠╣uw [talk] 02:58, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

TParis: You claim that your remedy hasn't been tried, but we've actually already had at least one good test case for it. A recent RM I participated in became dominated by B2C to the point that various editors were clearly expressing their concerns about the disruption – concerns that did not deter B2C. During the course of the RM, no uninvolved admins intervened in the way your remedy stipulated.

You noted yourself in the closing of the previous ANI that having admins police B2C would be a "huge burden"; evidence now suggests that in practice (and not unexpectedly) it simply doesn't happen. Further, even if the remedy would/could be consistently applied, it's so constrained (at worst barring B2C from further participation in one particular discussion that he's already disrupted to the point of needing intervention) that it's hard to see how it could be an effective deterrent even in principle. It needs to be reconsidered. ╠╣uw [talk] 18:59, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Noting that existing sanction is stated to be "revisited and reverted" if concerns are raised. ╠╣uw [talk] 10:18, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, I think everyone's simply seeking what they feel to be the most effective solution to some long-standing problems. TParis, if contrary to your summation you do not wish to allow any reconsideration, that's fine; however, let's not criticize those who merely have concerns/questions, or who ask for the reconsideration you offered. ╠╣uw [talk] 20:14, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (In ictu oculi)

After a review of the diffs offered this request appears to be verging on frivolous. "So we're done. Or fix it way Huwmanbeing suggests, even though you mis-parse it. " is a example of personalization? What if it was mis-parsed, how then does someone note something is mis-parsed without saying it? This does not deserve any result action. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:36, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As an aside, which some may not consider relevant, but I personally consider is Dicklyon has a 59.29% article contribution vs 3.29% WikipediaTalk contribution, a very healthy balance in contributing to article space rather than making/changing rules for others to follow. There are one or two frequent WikipediaTalk (inc MOS) contributors who barely contribute to article space. There's something not very balanced in that kind of diet. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:45, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Glrx

This filing seems to be another sad episode in a long running dispute. I've come across bits and pieces in the past, and have looked at the material above and comments by Gatoclass below.

I'm not a MOS warrior, I don't go around enforcing MOS, but I try to follow the endash rules, I have corrected some edits to follow MOS (I usually let the 'bots do it), and I have renamed some articles to use MOS-preferred punctuation. My editing has crossed paths with Dicklyon on several electronics articles as recently as today with Talk:Cat's-whisker detector. In those technical articles, I've been impressed with Dicklyon's research, argument, and clarity. I have not had similar interactions with Apteva or Born2Cycle. Generally, I stay far away from MOS debate.

I see no reason to sanction Dicklyon here. I do not see the complaints as being significant. Some complaints were about Dicklyon maintaining his own talk page (the "noise" edit comment while deleting some Apteva posts), and some complaints seem to seek a gag order (only discuss an editor's past history on his talk page). Ad hominem arguments should be avoided, but comments that attempt to accurately characterize an editor's global position seem fair game; unfortunately they can also come across as dismissive. Dicklyon may not be 100% civil, but I don't see A Quest for Knowledge's examples as worthy of sanctions. I'm not happy with Dicklyon's "Only YOU can prevent forest fires" comment, but otherwise his comments here are reasonable. I'd like Dicklyon to be a bit more diplomatic when engaging difficult editors, but that should not mean he cannot demand contrary sources.

Gatoclass proposes a one month topic ban on page move discussions for B2C. There was an earlier discussion (B2C needs to display higher tolerance of other editors) that TP closed. That discussion had support for OPTION A (complete ban on page move discussions) and OPTION B (ban that limits interaction on page move discussions); many supported B first and then A if B fails to work. TP's remedy ignored A and B and laid out a case-by-case warning with modest block for subsequent misbehavior in that case; TP was also concerned about bias in the commenters. My problem with TP's remedy is that it is not a restriction until somebody complains to an admin, so there's no penalty for B2C testing the limits. Gatoclass is proposing OPTION A with an expiration in one month. Gatoclass also worries that the proposed topic ban on page moves may not be general enough, but I don't see a pressing need to tailor something more general. I'd point to B2C's earlier promise about better behavior and ask him to follow it. I hope there is no more trouble down the road, but if there is, it can be addressed then. However, I think there was more support for an indeterminate OPTION B: B2C may comment once (or twice) on page move discussions. That seems the better option; it does not unduly restrict B2C's participation in page moves but would avoid extended debate; it would not have the fuzziness of debate until there's an objection.

I'm clueless about what to do with Apteva. Apteva is sensitive about several issues, but that sensitivity is not something than can be remedied here. Some of that sensitivity can be understood. Taking action on that sensitivity is the thing that needs to be curtailed. Apteva may not like something, but that does not mean Apteva should act on it. For example, I wish this current enforcement action did not happen. Apteva's request for a one month block on Dicklyon is not narrowly tailored for the perceived conduct nor is it of appropriate length. In contrast, Dicklyon's suggestion of amending the January topic ban is narrowly tailored (but goes beyond the just punctuation discussion). I'm not sure I'd include all of MOS; the extension might include just capitalization; there was a diff about capitalization. However, I have an incomplete view of Apteva editing. Gatoclass's diffs below are a mixed bag for me. The capitalization argument is a bit pointy, but the Suicide-of-X comments do not seem too far out of line (I'm am mystified why Suicide-of-X or Al Capone should be addressed at BLP). Consequently, I do not know what to do. Glrx (talk) 00:01, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MelanieN

FYI about B2C: there were several people who cautioned him on his talk page or were considering reporting him for reverting to his old editing habits at the Suicide of Kelly Youmans discussion. Among other things, he twice characterized opinions he didn't agree with as "ridiculous"; he twice hid comments by others (I restored the second set); and he asked the same question seven times, five of them in boldface, even though the question had been directly responded to at least three times (by Joe Decker, tryptofish, and myself). Sorry, I am traveling and posting via iPhone so cannot post diffs. MelanieN (talk) 03:00, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To TP: one thing I never understood about your closure (which I praised as appropriately moderate) was how are we supposed to find an uninvolved admin to report a problem to? I at first thought it should be you, but you said no. Do we cherry pick an admin that we are familiar with? Do we pick a name at random from category:administrators? Do we post at AN asking for someone? I'm not being argumentative, I really didn't and don't know how to proceed. MelanieN (talk) 18:59, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think TP is correct that it would be unfair to impose a ban on B2C at this point, since B2C felt he was operating under the terms of TP's closure of the previous AN. On the other hand, it's clear that B2C was the only one who understood those terms. So he felt free to ignore suggestions and cautions from everyone who wasn't an "uninvolved administrator", while continuing his problematic editing unhindered for a week. For the rest of us, the procedure turned out to be unexpectedly awkward in practice. In effect, those who interact with B2C are made responsible for enforcing the sanctions. Every time he starts getting tendentious we have to run and find an admin (presumably a different admin each time), who then has to spend half an hour getting up to speed on the situation. And if a given person seeks help regarding B2C more than once or twice, they could be accused of harrassing him. That's why I did not want to report this latest case, blatant as it was - because I was the one who took him to AN last time. This was the first test of TP's closure (or at least the first I am aware of; I don't follow B2C around to see what he is doing) and it definitely exposed some weaknesses in the system. --MelanieN (talk) 03:38, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kumioko

That's nothing more than using a legalese justification to do the same thing but justifying it in a different way. Either way, as Dianna points out, at this point its still a waste of time. Its punitive rather than preventative plain and simple. Kumioko (talk) 10:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Since someone took it upon then selves to move my comments up here and isolate them from the discussion below so my comments now make no sense I need to clarify. The above comments were in relation to the comments by Dianna below. But in reference to the case in general sanctions or a ban at this point is a waste of the community's time. The problem has already been resolved and closed. No further action at this point is necessary and this ongoing case is merely a drag on the limited resources of the community. I would also add that the discussion below that seems to indicate an increase in the Arbcom's scope to encompass the MOS needs to be vetted to a larger audience and not buried in another discussion to increase the Arbcoms's scope through "common law" scope creep. Kumioko (talk) 16:22, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oh now I see what happened, here. Kumioko (talk) 16:23, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Moving this from below because I am not an admin (and there is no us and them mentality?) and this makes the discussion far more complicated and easier to ignore comments. Gatoclass, that is almost exactly what should happen. There should be a couple warnings and then escalating blocks as appropriate. If that doesn't work, then we can move to a sanction or topic ban, not before. We need to let the process be the process and not throw it out the window whenever we choose. Kumioko (talk) 16:27, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Dicklyon

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Some of Dicklyon's comments are less than ideal, but I don't think them serious enough to warrant a sanction, IMO they might at most merit a reminder. On the other hand, I can to some extent sympathize with his exasperation, having read some of the discussion at Talk:Suicide of Kelly Yeomans, where Born2cycle's repeated advocacy of a page move request that was rejected by a five to one majority might itself be considered disruptive. As for the proposal to amend Apteva's topic ban, I would have to look at that in more detail before expressing an opinion. Gatoclass (talk) 17:54, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Having taken a look through some of the earlier discussions (it's hardly possible to read them all since there are so many) it seems to me there is a solid case to be made for a sanction against Born2cycle for the continuation of his well documented, disruptive argumentativeness[15][16][17][18] at Talk:Suicide of Kelly Yeomans, and for a broadening of the existing sanction against Apteva. What I'm struggling to decide on is the scope of such sanctions. For Born2cycle, I am inclined to propose a one-month topic ban on all page move discussions, with escalating bans for future breaches, but I'm not sure if a ban on page move discussions alone will be sufficiently broad. For Apteva, I am seeing disturbing parallels in some of his recent edits[19][20] with the types of arguments, and the intransigence, that got him community banned from certain types of MOS-related punctuation discussions,[21] indicating that a broader ban may be necessary, but where does one draw the line? MOS relates in one way or another to almost every aspect of editing, so an undifferentiated ban may be impractical, but the current ban is beginning to look too narrow. I am still considering these issues, but in the meantime I would appreciate some input from other users on the same. Gatoclass (talk) 08:41, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Since Seraphimblade imposed the original topic ban on Apteva, I have asked for his opinion on its scope. He seems not to be very active lately however, and we can't keep this request open indefinitely, so if he hasn't replied in the next couple of days I will move forward on this request regardless. Gatoclass (talk) 15:37, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Seraphimblade has not been active in some time, but I think his comment here is relevant to the current proceedings. Apteva apparently believes that the RfC and sanctions already imposed upon him or her are some sort of mistake—I've seen no suggestion at all that Apteva takes any kind of responsibility for problems others have with his/her approach to discussions. When a topic ban is imposed, the expectation is that the person disengage entirely from the problematic area. It's kind of a last resort in the hopes that a site ban is not needed. It is not an invitation to wikilawyer around the topic area in the way that Apteva has continued to do. The diffs noted by Dicklyon and by Gatoclass show that the same kinds of problem persist, and therefore that a broader topic ban at minimum is needed. One option is the one proposed by Dicklyon; another is to add an additional ban, something along the lines of: "Apteva is indefinitely prohibited from engaging in discussions and edits relating to the Manual of Style or policy about article titles" (as was imposed upon PManderson in the case cited). I broadly agree with Gatoclass's comments, not just about Apteva but about Dicklyon and Born2cycle as well. Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 02:04, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I too see little evidence that Apteva has conceded an issue with his past behaviour, indeed he appears to be every bit as insistent on his correctness as before. However, he has indicated on my talk page that he no longer "keep[s] repeating myself as I once did",[22] which sounds like a step forward. Nor has a great deal of evidence been presented of recent misconduct on Apteva's part, or of a wider MOS problem. So although I too have considered a broad MOS ban, I'm not sure it would be necessary at this point; I'm inclined to think that a broadening of the topic ban to include the clause proposed by Dicklyon might be sufficient at this stage. If that changes, a broader ban can always be imposed at a later date. Gatoclass (talk) 08:41, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Apteva appears somewhat persistent/repetitive in this AE request, although on the whole there does seem to be a step forward as you note. Certainly a less broad topic ban would be preferable if it can achieve the results. Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 12:26, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am in the process of summarizing the evidence presented above and will post it along with my conclusions shortly. Gatoclass (talk) 06:21, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, to summarize:

Born2cycle made 69 comments over the course of ten days at Talk:Suicide of Kelly Yeomans - almost as many comments as the next three contributors combined.[23] In addition to reopening a recently closed RM discussion (which I think he was entitled to do in the circumstances) he also initiated three separate discussion sub-threads and participated heavily in a fourth; this in a discussion where the consensus was clearly and overwhelmingly against his POV. Born2cycle states in his evidence regarding that discussion that If I had been told my behavior was problematic I would have stopped, but several users expressed frustration, some on multiple occasions, with his tactics (sample: [24][25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32]) and B2c not only did not stop, he was still proposing to continue the discussion a few hours before it was closed.[33] In light of his previous warnings and pledges, I therefore propose to ban Born2cycle for one month from RM-related discussions.
Due to concerns raised above and in earlier discussions that Apteva is breaching their ban by other means, I propose to clarify the scope of the ban by broadening it in line with the proposal outlined in earlier discussions, namely to add the clause and from advocating against the MOS being applicable to article titles. Also, I think Apteva is entitled to some clarity regarding the circumstances by which he can appeal the original ban. I therefore propose that they be permitted to appeal the ban six months from the date it was imposed, or 6 July, and every six months thereafter. Any such appeal should I think be lodged at WP:AN rather than here at AE since the original ban was imposed by the community; Apteva is of course entitled to appeal the broadening of the ban proposed here (assuming it is implemented) in accordance with normal AE practice.
Regarding the charges against Dicklyon, I think it should be clarified that merely employing the words "you" and "your argument" etc do not constitute meaningful "comment on contributor" and are not actionable here; nor are occasional references to a user's previous history of discussion so long as such referrals are relevant to the discussion at hand and not excessive, disruptive, or objectionable in other ways. While some of Dicklyon's comments have clearly had an undertone of hostility, there has been a degree of provocation in the past which mitigates those responses to a degree. I think a certain degree of robustness in discussion must be accepted or we will end up encouraging WP:GAMING of the relevant policies. I therefore propose to post a reminder rather than warning to Dicklyon on this occasion.

In accordance with my usual practice, I will leave these proposals on the table for 24 hours, after which I will implement them if there have been no objections from uninvolved admins. Gatoclass (talk) 08:00, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I object to the proposed one-month topic ban on User:Born2cycle. This is far beyond the scope of the remedy devised by User:TParis on the 20th of February, which read, in part, "An uninvolved admin may ban [B2C] from a particular discussion he is involved in on a case by case basis after a warning that can be enforced with a block between 24 hours and the duration of the discussion he is disruptive in. This includes discussions about the close of a move or article titles discussion anywhere on Wikipedia". A user came to my talk page while the talk page discussion was in the process of being closed, and I declined to take any action against B2C at that time, because by the time I arrived at Talk:Suicide of Kelly Yeomans the discussion had been closed for 15 minutes and the remedy seemed punitive even at that point. So a one-month topic ban issued two weeks after the fact makes no sense to me. -- Dianna (talk) 04:59, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

MOS now comes under the purview of Arbcom discretionary sanctions, this is a new case and we are under no obligation here to endorse or follow earlier remedies imposed at other venues. I did not follow TParis' sanction proposal because I consider it to be ineffective, the object should be to get B2c to self-regulate his behaviour in the first place, not to leave it to admins and other users to regulate it for him. Additionally, TParis' remedy was unilateral and did not reflect the consensus expressed at the actual AN/I discussion which was 20 in favour of option A/B versus 5 for some other solution. Option A was for the imposition of topic bans, option B was for a restriction on the number of posts made by B2c in any page move discussion, and as a first choice option A received 11 !votes versus 9 for option B. In short, the sanction I have proposed reflects the majority view at the AN/I discussion (as well as that at a previous discussion) so I believe it has the clear endorsement of the community which cannot be said for TParis' novel remedy.

Additionally, I cannot agree that a sanction imposed at this point would be "punitive" because the discussion has already been closed; closure of a discussion has no bearing on whether or not the conduct of involved users is sanctionable. I might add that I don't do "punitive"; sanctions in my view are remedial: they are a means of encouraging disruptive users to modify their behaviour and/or removing disruptive influences for the benefit of the community at large. I think it's clear in this instance that Born2cycle is still not getting the message and that a remedial sanction is therefore an appropriate next step. Gatoclass (talk) 12:29, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't examined the case and can't therefore comment on most proposed sanctions, but at first glance I find a sanction like "[banned] from advocating against the MOS being applicable to article titles" inadvisable because it is not content-neutral. The arbitration process, and admins generally, have no authority over content issues, including over the question as to how we apply the MOS to content. We must therefore not enact sanctions that ban a user from voicing a particular opinion. But, if their conduct in discussions about this topic is deficient, we can ban them from discussing the topic altogether, irrespective of the opinions they put forward. Sandstein 06:58, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

[I]f their conduct in discussions about this topic is deficient - yes I think that's the point here. We are not taking a stand on the content issue; the proposed sanction is merely a reflection of the community's view that this particular user has been disruptive in discussions relating to that content issue. Gatoclass (talk) 12:29, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Gatoclass, your proposal did not have consensus at the previous ANI discussion at all. If you read the comments, and not the !votes, you'll see that there was a strong consensus that B2C is an expert on the subject and a topic ban would harm Wikipedia by depriving us of his expertise. I'd suggest that you give the 'novel remedy' a try before casting it off as ineffective. Has any admin warned B2C to not participate in a discussion and he has ignored that warning? Can it be demonstrated? If not, then why are we even calling it a failure. It hasn't failed, ya'all have.--v/r - T P 13:43, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

TParis, the issue I have with your remedy is that the only effective check on B2c's disruption is a warning from an administrator for each and every discussion in which he becomes disruptive, followed by a brief block if he fails to heed the warning. This is not a disincentive to excessive posting at all, because the user in question can effectively post as frequently as he likes in any given discussion until receiving a warning from an administrator, after which he can repeat the same in the next discussion, and the next after that, and so on, without ever having to modify his behaviour or risk an actual sanction. Gatoclass (talk) 14:37, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You dont have to explain my own idea to me, I already know you dont comprehend it. But dont sanction a guy because he followed it and all others failed to use it to their advantage. The idea gives the community a great tool and because you like traditional solutions you're tossing this one out before you tried it and punishing someone for not following your opinion of how he should have been topic banned in that discussion despite following the direction he was given. Not his fault that no one used the sanction.--v/r - T P 18:08, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Huwmanbeing & Omnedon both: Did anyone ask an uninvolved admin during the course of any of these discussions? I've seen only a single example and it was brought up after the RM closed. Are there others I am unaware of where someone has brought it to the attention of an uninvolved admin during the week long process? I never said anyone had to bear B2C's behaviors to exhaustion, anyone could ask for admin attention on day 1 if it became an issue. If the answer is no, then you've not even tried it. You've assumed the "uninvolved admins" gnome around or magically read your minds through the interwebs and know where our attention is needed. Petitioning for uninvolved admins to take uninvolved admin actions is not canvassing. You're not stacking votes or slanting discussions by doing it, you're enforcing behavioral guidelines. Don't place silly arbitrary constraints on yourself and then blame someone else (me) because you refused to give the idea a try.--v/r - T P 21:05, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Omnedon: Who in the world ever told you that you couldn't? I shouldn't have to disprove a nonexistant. Do I have to tell you that there is no rule against putting purple food coloring in your jello as well? You placed an arbitrary self-imposed rule on yourself against contacting an uninvolved administrator and it was silly at that. No one else placed that restriction on you. So yes, it is a silly arbitrary constraint that holds no weight. At any time, you are allowed to ask an administrator to help you with administrative tasks without violating WP:CANVASS. Beware of not violating WP:FORUMSHOP though.--v/r - T P 22:44, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Omnedon: It's not my responsibility to summarize every Wikipedia policy and guideline and how it pertains to a particular sanction. Again, nothing was ever stopping you from asking for an uninvolved administrator except for you. So until you actually try the sanction, I'm going to write your objections off as prejudicial. Dislike it all you want, but the facts are the facts: you've yet to even try it and you can't prove it wouldn't work if given a shot. Try it once or twice and if it doesn't work, I'll be much more amiable to trying something harsher and more traditional like standard topic bans or worse.--v/r - T P 23:43, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I can't help that no one thought to raise the issue to an uninvolved admin until after it was closed. I never said you had to wait 5, 6, or even 7 days. Raise it to an admin after two hours for all I care. The instructions were clear enough. I've even now made them even clearer. I'm sure you all have the best of intentions as well, but you're also involved with B2C and clearly not his biggest fan so unless Gatoclass wants to take unilateral action, using AE authority to 'trump' another admin, then that's his call and I'd shake my head and wash my hands of it. But as another uninvolved admin, I fail to see effort made by B2C's opponents to actually use the tool I crafted for them. So I'm not sure why you're even still arguing when the point still stands that it hasn't been tried. What are you trying to prove still? You keep saying it's ineffective and my question is: when has it been tried?--v/r - T P 00:47, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Noting that that statement was three months ago and you have had ample opportunity to use it and have not. The issue was visited here, you're late to the party. I'm not going to revert a close that is 3 months old. That'd be like pulling the rug out from under B2C so you can slap a harsher sanction on him ex post facto and then act on it as if he's been under this harsher sanction all along. You're trying to shift responsibility to him for your lack of attention to detail on the sanction. I don't play by those shady tactics. You want a sanction, get consensus here. But acknowledge the fact that you failed to use the tool given to you, and not that the tool itself failed, and then proceed to change it on honest terms.--v/r - T P 12:54, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

MelanieN: It was suggested that I remain uninvolved for just these situations. All of the ideas you presented for finding an admin are good. I think a polite talk page message to one you are familiar with, or one whom B2C is familiar with, is the best course. Also, admins who participate in dispute resolution and here at arbitration enforcement are also a good bet; they have the skills for dealing with these sorts of conflicts. If you ask an admin to get involved, the worst they can say is "No".--v/r - T P 20:06, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Huwmanbeing: Did you actually read my comments to you? Changing the verdict now after three months is dishonest and unethical. The comment about revisiting the matter was under the assumption 'within a reasonable time limit' is common sense.--v/r - T P 22:51, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As TParis notes, I am entitled to close this request with a unilateral topic ban for Born2cycle under authority of discretionary sanctions, but am reluctant to do so when lacking a majority in favour in this section. Also, I think Melanie makes a worthwhile point that Born2cycle believed per TParis' remedy that he was permitted to continue posting until warned by an administrator - a conclusion that is probably not entirely indefensible, though I still think he should have taken heed of the complaints from other users much earlier. In light of these circumstances, however, I am going to downgrade the remedy for Born2cycle from a topic ban to a warning on this occasion. Born2cycle must understand from this point however that he has already had the requisite warning for administrative action under ARBCOM discretionary sanctions, and that any uninvolved administrator, acting unilaterally under authority of those sanctions or as a result of an AE request, may in future sanction him in any manner deemed appropriate for conduct deemed disruptive at WP:MOS- or WP:TITLE-related discussions or pages without further warning. Gatoclass (talk) 09:52, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Gilabrand

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Gilabrand

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:01, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Gilabrand (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:ARBPIA#General 1RR Restriction

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

10 May 2013 Embedded in a series of edits that don't do much is a small change intended to reinforce the notion that Ariel University is an Israeli institution (first paragraph).
10 May 2013 removes paragraph from same article

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Gilabrand has been blocked a number of times already for ARBPIA violations. Notified under case here.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

The first edit constitutes a revert insofar as an earlier edit today by a different editor attempted to locate Ariel University in "Israel" (when in fact it is in the West Bank). Gilabrand's edit is more of the same, expressed slightly differently.

Sandstein, you have previously sanctioned Gilabrand twice yourself under ARBPIA, [34]. I fail to see why you are now unwilling to do so. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:23, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@ErikHaugen -- as the edit summary notes, the second edit removes "unsourced commentary" from the article. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:50, 10 May 2013 (UTC) One sentence removed by the edit (thus perhaps alleged to be "unsourced") is: "In July 2006 the Council for Higher Education rejected the proposal (which had been paired with an initiative by Shimon Peres to unite several regional colleges in the Galilee into one umbrella university)." Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:03, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As a gesture of goodwill I would like to withdraw this report (assuming that it's up to me to propose such a thing). I first approached Gilabrand to request that she self-revert and was disappointed that she refused to do so; even so, I think other editors' views that the edits themselves weren't significant enough are likely to carry the day, so in the interests of saving people's time here I suggest that this report be closed. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:50, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[35]

Discussion concerning Gilabrand

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Gilabrand

I added the word "Israeli" to the article, because there is no question that Ariel University is an Israeli institution. This is hardly the same as stating it is "in Israel." I also made a long series of copyedits to the lead and other paragraphs. I did not revert anything that the above editor edited. He took out the word Israeli, but I was not working on that paragraph and did not touch it. In fact I was not even aware that anyone else was editing the page because I was in the middle of an edit when he removed the word Israeli, and I had not seen it before I saved my edits. Improving the English and reorganizing the material so it is chronological and not repetitive was my only aim. --Geewhiz (talk) 12:19, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Soosim

I just went and reinstated gilabrand's edits. the edits are fine. if you look at the timing, it clearly is a case of simultaneous editing by gilabrand and nomo. no reason for any sanctions here at all. and if nomo wants to discuss Israeli versus in Israel, fine. but not here. Soosim (talk) 14:48, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Zero0000

(Not commenting on Gilabrand's highlighted actions at the moment) In my opinion Sandstein's legal analysis is not correct. It is normal practice for sanctions to be modified and extended over time. Once someone has been warned about the existence of the sanctions, it is their responsibility to keep informed about them. There is some possibility for discretion in relation to individual editors who may honestly not know about the changes, but in the case of an experienced editor who has met and commented on the 1RR restriction multiple times it is hard to see why such discretion is appropriate. Gilabrand was warned about the existence of the sanctions and provably knows they were extended to include 1RR. It is enough to satisfy the warning requirement as well as fair process. Zero^talk 03:17, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

It seems to me that the report by Nomoskedasticity does not show a deliberate violation of 1RR. First of all, the reasoning that the first edit is some sort of revert is rather shaky as saying a university is an Israeli institution is different from saying it is an institution in Israel. Secondly, the time between edits is very narrow as Nomoskedasticity made the revert a minute after Gilabrand's last edit and the subsequent edit that is being characterized as a second revert was just eight minutes later and may not have created an edit conflict given that the changes did not involve the same content. Not even sure what is so objectionable about the bit that was removed. The statement being removed was unsourced puffery stating "University status is an issue of prestige, increased government funding for research, as well as the ability to issue doctorate degrees" and deleting such content seems completely legitimate.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 03:54, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Gilabrand

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

In my view, this request is procedurally unactionable because it contains no diff proving that Gilabrand was previously individually notified of discretionary sanctions in general and of Wikipedia:ARBPIA#General 1RR Restriction in particular. The wording of WP:AC/DS#Warnings mandates such a warning (it uses the imperative form "shall"), no matter how aware of these sanctions Gilabrand may in fact have been, or whether they have previously been sanctioned. A notification about the 1RR restriction in particular is needed because that provision is not a Committee decision, but has apparently been imposed by administrators as a discretionary sanction, such that the warning requirements apply to it also. Sandstein 13:13, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at my old sanctions of Gilabrand, it appears that I made these on the basis of a 2008 notification of Gilabrand by PhilKnight. That notification should have been cited in the request. However, these earlier cases did not involve the general 1RR restriction, so we still need a diff of a prior warning about that specific restriction. Sandstein 14:48, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is there some analysis of the second edit demonstrating that it is a revert? ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 16:38, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by The Devil's Advocate

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: The Devil's Advocate (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:59, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: One-way interaction ban with User:Mathsci imposed at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive125#Zeromus1 & The Devil's Advocate, logged at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence#Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions

Administrator imposing the sanction: Timotheus Canens (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: [36]

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

Over the past six and a half months or so I have complied with this restriction despite my objections to the sanction in general and its one-way nature in particular. This has not been without challenge as several times I have been involved in discussions where Mathsci was involved, often after I became involved. Even when he has responded to something I have said I have avoided addressing, commenting on, or interacting with, Mathsci in any fashion. As it stands, not being able to discuss matters with him has hampered my ability to participate in certain processes. In particular, although Mathsci does not edit articles or talk pages explicitly concerning R&I, he continues to involve himself in its affairs through project and userspace. Occasionally, this means I am in a situation where a matter concerns my editing activity in that topic area, but my ability to address the matter is hampered by Mathsci's ability to comment and my inability to respond. I thus ask for the restriction to be lifted.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:59, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Doncram case is an example of one of my points above. Mathsci's first comment in the case was to dispute one of my proposed findings. He then spent much of the case disputing my arguments. As a result, my ability to defend my statements was hampered because responding to his comments would have been a violation of my interaction ban. Some of the evidence he presented actually supported my position, but I was not able to point that out given the restriction.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:04, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Timotheus Canens

Statement by Mathsci

Elkman summarised his views of The Devil's Advocate's editing patterns towards the end of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram.[37] Just under a year ago, The Devil's Advocate became actively involved in trying to have the R&I sanctions removed on TrevelyanL85A2, an off-wiki associate of site-banned users. A little later on he edited in concert with Zeromus1, who was identified as a probable sockpuppet of one of those banned users. At the same time The Devil's Advocate has acted in a different way towards regular editors, particularly administrators. The editing records of two administrators, Orlady and KillerChihuahua, have been called into doubt by The Devil's Advocate in two quite separate arbcom cases. In the second half of 2012 he was involved in multiple requests centred around WP:ARBR&I: all those requests were declined. This year The Devil's Advocate has formed an association with other editors in R&I. That small group was probably noticed for the first time after a sockpuppet report listing Dougweller as KillerChihuahua's sock- or meatpuppet. When asked, The Devil's Advocate has more recently been giving advice on how to use arbcom processes. That is a new development. He has on occasion been questioned about me; but has wisely avoided the topic. With ongoing attempts by associates to lobby arbitrators regarding R&I issues,[38] this does not really seem like quite the right time for a review. Quite recently, for example, The Devil's Advocate reported KillerChihuahua here at AE in connection with WP:ARBR&I. From what I could tell, it was a frivolous request, an example of wikilawyering and gamesmanship. Apart from certain editors being removed or removing themselves from wikipedia, not very much has changed since late December 2012, when The Devil's Advocate made these comments about me during a failed RfAr.[39] The IBAN does not affect The Devil's Advocate's content edits in any way. It might possibly act as a damper on the sort of edits he's been making about quite decent folk like Orlady and KillerChihuahua. Mathsci (talk) 21:38, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Neither The Devil's Advocate nor the other sanctioned editor Cla68 (now indefinitely blocked) have ever taken these interaction bans to apply within arbcom related space. Both have made outspoken statements about me after the interaction bans were put in place. The interaction bans were imposed on 22 October (exactly two weeks after heart surgery). In the RfAR submitted on 23 October, Cla68 wrote, "Mathsci states repeatedly that the stress from the Race and Intelligence topic area has caused him heart trouble and other kinds of hardship." That is a fairly clear-cut example of flouting the spirit of the interaction ban. Cla68 was later briefly blocked for other similar remarks made in arbcom space and on his talk page. With The Devil's Advocate, it was slightly different, but but he appeared to feel no constraints a day after the IBAN was imposed in discussing me on the RfAr page.[40][41][42][43][44][45][46][47][48][49][50] He did not comment in the rejected request for amendment filed in his behalf in early December 2012. However he commented in Cla68's second RfAr, mentioning me.[51] (I did not comment at all in that second request, although Cla68 devoted a lot of space to me.) So if, as appears to be case, the interaction bans have been taken not to apply within arbcom space, I cannot see what purpose this appeal might have. It doesn't affect The Devil's Advocate's article editing or his participation on arbcom pages. The Devil's Advocate's more recent direct involvement with agenda-driven R&I editors does not help matters.[52][53] His continued association with those other editors and previously with R&I sanctioned editors (as well as with Cla68) has to be taken into consideration. If he had no involvement with matters related to WP:ARBR&I, things would be different. At the moment his recent frivolous request here concerning KillerChihuahua must still be fresh in administrators' memories. Mathsci (talk) 05:57, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Earlier today, Echigo mole trolled on two user talk pages using the open proxy 125.71.207.194 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). As a result of that trolling, the editor D.Lazard made off-topic comments here, unrelated to this appeal. They were removed by Sandstein. The editor Akuri (talk · contribs · logs · block log) is aware of the disruption caused by Echigo mole's attempts to generate discord. Akuri has acted similarly, leaving an inflammatory note on D.Lazard's user talk page. It would normally be irrelevant here but it specifically mentions this appeal as well as commenting on future plans involving The Devil's Advocate, me and WP:ARBR&I.[54] Akuri wrote to D.Lazard, "I noticed your comment at AE that Sandstein removed. While Sandstein is right that The Devil's Advocate's appeal is not the right time or place to raise that issue, I or TDA might make an arbitration request about Mathsci sometime in the future, and it would be appropriate to raise the Deltahedron issue there. If you want, whenever the request happens you can be included as a party so you can present evidence about it." Akuri and The Devil's Advocate have been in off-wiki communication.[55] That edit by Akuri was made using an open proxy, later blocked by MastCell. The idea that either of the two are contemplating yet another request to arbcom centreed on me is a problem. It is unfortunately very much related to this appeal. Whether or not Akuri is giving accurate information about The Devil's Advocate is immaterial. The Devil's Advocate has a continued association with him and Akuri's message places a huge questionmark next to any assurances from The Devil's Advocate that he has turned over a new leaf. Last year TrevelyanL85A2 and Zeromus1. This year Akuri. Mathsci (talk) 21:54, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Akuri

I don't know if I am involved or not. I was not intending to comment here, but now that Mathsci has brought me up I should clarify something about my comment to D. Lazard.

Regarding the possibility of requesting arbitration about Mathsci, here is what SilkTork said in December: [56]

"I think we need a full case to look carefully into all the issues here. We have a problem which is not being resolved, and motions are perhaps not the appropriate way of gathering evidence and finding a solution - especially when the Committee is divided. If the community are concerned enough about the trolling of Mathsci, and about the impact the fall out from that is having, someone will no doubt put forward a case request in the new year. It may well be that those of us who are involved in arbitration are getting a distorted view of this, and we are seeing it as more disruptive than it is; it is up to the community to let us know how disruptive the matter actually is."

Here is what HersFold said in the same discussion. [57]

"I'm now thinking a case may be necessary as well. This does seem to be extending quite a good bit beyond what these motions could handle, and it's turning into a muddled mess. However, such a request may be better left until after new year's so we can have some fresher eyes looking at it."

If The Devil's Advocate or I decides to make an arbitration request about Mathsci, it will be because arbitrators are expecting someone to make one. It's incredibly misleading to claim there is something wrong with contemplating making a request that arbitrators have already said they are expecting, or that this is a reason to not lift the interaction ban. But maybe a case won't be needed. We're at AE already, and anything that can be resolved here won't need arbitration. Akuri (talk) 23:00, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by The Devil's Advocate

Statement by Momento

I can't recall editing with any of the above or the articles and discussions mentioned. I have simply read what The Devil's Advocate and Mathsci have said and followed the links. It appears that TDA has faithfully adhered to his sanction for six months and it should be lifted. MOMENTO 23:11, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Result of the appeal by The Devil's Advocate

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[a]

[b]

@@ Line 398: / Line 398: @@
 "I'm now thinking a case may be necessary as well. This does seem to be extending quite a good bit beyond what these motions could handle, and it's turning into a muddled mess. However, such a request may be better left until after new year's so we can have some fresher eyes looking at it."
-If The Devil's Advocate or I decides to make an arbitration request about Mathsci, it will be because arbitrators are expecting someone to make one. It's incredibly misleading to claim there is something wrong with contemplating making a request that arbitrators have already said they are expecting, or that this is a reason to not lift the interaction ban. But maybe a case won't be needed. We're at AE already, and anything that can be resolved here won't need arbitration.
+If The Devil's Advocate or I decides to make an arbitration request about Mathsci, it will be because arbitrators are expecting someone to make one. It's incredibly misleading to claim there is something wrong with contemplating making a request that arbitrators have already said they are expecting, or that this is a reason to not lift the interaction ban. But maybe a case won't be needed. We're at AE already, and anything that can be resolved here won't need arbitration. [[User:Akuri|Akuri]] ([[User talk:Akuri|talk]]) 23:00, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 ===Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by The Devil's Advocate ===

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