Talk:History of Israel

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 November 2017

Apparently an unrelated paragraph was accidentally removed in this edit. Somebody please restore it:

In 64 CE, the Temple High Priest Joshua ben Gamla introduced a religious requirement for Jewish boys to learn to read from the age of six. Over the next few hundred years this requirement became steadily more ingrained in Jewish tradition.

Thank you very much--181.91.131.69 (talk) 02:47, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

References

Not done for now: @Telaviv1:, can you confirm or dispel the suggestion that the removal mentioned by the IP editor was in error or explain why cited information was removed? Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 03:57, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Apologies, I fixed it. Telaviv1 (talk) 12:05, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 15:00, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

What is the article about?

I tried to fix the two lead paragraphs of the article which I think are incorrect:

The site of modern Israel is the birthplace of the Hebrew language, the place where the Hebrew Bible was composed ...

The territory (also known as Land of Israel or Palestine) has come under the sway of various empires and been home to a variety of ethnicities, but was predominantly Jewish from roughly 1,000 years before the Common Era (BCE) until the 3rd century ...

Exactly where Hebrew originated is unknown, but it was spoken by the Israelites whose territory extended into modern day Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine and Jordan. Notably, most of the Negev were never under Israelite dominion. My point is that the borders of these states are not corresponding at all to the (not well-defined) borders of these ancient tribes. It is also hard to claim that "the territory" was "predominantly Jewish" when we have not defined what the extents of "the territory is."

Even solving these problems, I don't get what the subject of the article is. Is it to describe the history of a region or something else? ImTheIP (talk) 00:46, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Take a look at this map and you will see the territory comprising ancient Israel and Judah are VERY similar to modern Israel. Also Israel is a Jewish state with a Jewish majority, the same people that lived in Judah.--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 19:59, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

The history os Israel, as other nations, needs not follow fixed geographical borders - which have shifted over the years.Icewhiz (talk) 20:10, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I've looked at that map in particular, but I'm coming to the opposite conclusion. The territory of the Kingdoms of Judah and Israel extended into the modern day states Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine and Jordan. Fwiw, the map shows the tribes extent at one point in time, but they certainly weren't static as they were both conquering and being conquered by other people. ImTheIP (talk) 20:19, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Exactly, because borders change through time. For example, see how many different maps are included in History of Germany.--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 21:34, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I have no idea why you insist on inserting "The site of modern Israel..." It reads badly ("site?"), mixes modern geopolitics with ancient history and is actually false. The Negev covers more than half of Israel (13k km^2 out of 20k km^2) and was never "predominantly Jewish" as opposed to the Palestinian territories which indeed have been. ImTheIP (talk) 14:16, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

The Negev may be large (if the Sinai were bundled in.... you'd have so many more kms in there) - but it is (and was) mostly empty - very empty if you cut the whole ttiangle below Beer Sheba. One could make such claims on Russia and Siberia /the Russian far east (a heck of alot more sqr kms). The southern half of the Negev was less Jewish (though never - would be stretching it - for aome brief times Jewish influence extended down the coast to the Hejaz) - but also essentially a very empty frontier.Icewhiz (talk) 14:32, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

I think we are in violent agreement here? It is certainly correct that "the site of modern Russia" historically never was "predominantly Russian" and perhaps isn't even today. The borders of the territory of the Kievan Rus', the Russians cultural ancestors, has nothing to do with the borders of the modern Russian Federation. ImTheIP (talk) 15:11, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

I am arguing that despite their size, in both cases, these are insignificant due to emptiness (Siberean gulags and all).Icewhiz (talk) 17:52, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Are you arguing that the phrasing should be "The site of modern Israel has ..." and not "The region has ..."? ImTheIP (talk) 19:09, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Old Yishuv

I imagine the heading was removed because "Old Yishuv" isn't a common name for the Ottoman period. :) The term was coined by the Zionists in the 19th century and used pejoratively to distinguish their "New Yishuv" from the existing, "Old" one. ImTheIP (talk) 08:40, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

the term is clearly relevant to the history of Israel. Whether or not this was a pejorative in the 19th century - it isn't one now - but rather the accepted way of delineating between the two, who are radically different from one another. Icewhiz (talk) 08:47, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Note that the only time the term "Old Yishuv" is used in the heading itself. The term Yishuv isn't even defined before the section about Mandatory Palestine. It's just sloppy writing and telaviv1 was right in correcting it. ImTheIP (talk) 13:46, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

The term "Old Yishuv" is used in Israeli historiography to distinguish it from the New Yishuv that started with the first Zionist Aliyah in the 1880s. I never heard in my life it was something "pejorative".--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 16:14, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

See f.e [1] and [2]: "They lived primarily in Jerusalem and Jaffa, and in smaller numbers in Hebron, Safed, and Tiberias. The Zionists sought to "Zionize" these communities, which they disparagingly called the "old Yishuv" (settlement). Those unwilling to embrace the Zionist project, like the ultra-Orthodox haredim, were marginalized." It was disparaging for approximately the same reasons that calling the Torah the Old Testament is disparaging to Jews - it implies there is a "New" and better version about. ImTheIP (talk) 17:05, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Interesting. I didn't know that. Nevertheless, the term "Old Yishuv" is widely accepted in historiography and there's no reason to erase it from our vocabulary, not to mention it's used by multiple reliable sources.--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 17:18, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Sure, but keep in mind that the "Old Yishuv" term only referred to the Jewish communities living in Palestine - it didn't refer to the province itself. ImTheIP (talk) 17:34, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

I'll note that whatever the 19th century connotation - these days people with "old Yishuv" ancestors mention them with pride - stating they've been here for 10+ generations - it's most definitely not a pejorative from the second half of the 20th century onward. Icewhiz (talk) 17:38, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

ImTheIP, I understand there are events in the Ottoman period that are not related to Jews from the Old Yishuv or elsewhere (check what I told to another user). However, it doesn't make sense to have an introduction to the Ottoman period of several paragraphs before the next section (which is 'Birth of Zionism'). Check the Roman period as an example. What comprehensive title do you propose?--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 19:02, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't know. But the question ties into what the article is about. Is it about Jewish history in the region or the history of the region itself? Palestinian Jews constituted a destitute group in the Ottoman society in contrast to European Jews who were often very successful as merchants and bankers. These Jews were Zionists and settlers, hence the word Yishuv, which means settlement, to describe their community was appropriate. The Palestinian Jews on the other land likely had lived in the region since Judean times and their community could hardly be described as a "Yishuv". The term has an unmistakably Zionist flavor, an "old" community waiting to be amended by a "new" one. ImTheIP (talk) 17:24, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

I repeat myself, content in that section doesn't talk about Jews only, it mentions other important events during the Ottoman period before the First Aliyah (which is covered in the following section about Zionism). Such events are unrelated to Jewish history, but are part of the region's history, including administrative divisions and changes during the Ottoman period, the 1660 Druze revolt, Zahir al-Umar's revolt and his brief independent emirate, al-Jazzar's encounter with Napoleonic troops, Arab rebellion against Egyptian Muhammad Ali (Jews didn't play any role, although they suffered massacres in Safed and Tiberias), the 1838 Druze revolt and the Tanzimat reorganization. What title do you propose instead of 'Old Yishuv'? It's a simple question.--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 19:21, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't have any. :) Write it in the way you think is best! ImTheIP (talk) 20:06, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People

Here is the paragrah that I tried to insert, but I have not the right editing this article. Could administrator include it to update this article ?

On 19 July 2018 an Israeli Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People which specifies the nature of the State of Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people was adopted by Knesset 62 in favor, 55 against and two abstentions and supported by Benyamin Netanyahu.

DidCORN (talk) 16:26, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Confusing article

The problem I have with this article, is it's poorly written, on purpose. The intention is to obviously mislead and give the impression that the piece of land that is currently called Israel, has always been called Israel. Which is obviously just 100% false.

It's a piece of land that has had many owners, governments, kingdoms, residents - and also many different names. Yet, you try and imply that over the last 3000 years it has always been Israel.

I realize articles like this are always going to get taken over by politics, and nationalists, but you can at least try and make it vaguely historical.

Ceej19799 (talk) 12:53, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Merge

Shouldn't this article be merged to History of ancient Israel and Judah? Editor2020 (talk) 22:07, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Editor2020, no it shouldn't. History of nations don't begin when they gain independence and you have no right to make such a drastic change based on your own opinion solely and creating redundant articles. It should be restored back to older stable version. Infantom (talk) 03:17, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

I did not do the merge, but did change the name of the article to reduce confusion, as it did not reflect the fact that Category:History of Israel is only about the history of the modern State of Israel. Since there was no main article for Category:History of Israel, I created a new article, History of the State of Israel. As always, if you feel that my edits are not helpful you are free to revert them. Editor2020 (talk) 03:41, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Regardless to the merge proposal, your changes are to drastic and unnecessary (since the issues you brought up could be solved pretty easily). The new article misses to much valuable content, even if we limit it to the modern state history (such as Zionism, Yishuv, the relations with the British mandate and Ottoman empire). 'History of the Land of Israel', without the context of Israel, becomes redundant and no so much different from History of Palestine. Infantom (talk) 08:27, 1 May 2019 (UTC)