Talk:Far-right politics in Ukraine/Archive 4
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Need to expand the section on the far right groups and parties
Currently we have two lists of far right parties and groups at the end of the article. To make it encyclopedic, we should move these up to their own section and make it into a full narrative, summarising what their articles say. BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:36, 10 May 2022 (UTC) This is a very good source worth mining: https://www.depo.ua/ukr/politics/chi-pohovae-biletskiy-z-azovom-veymarsku-ukrayinu--04062016200000 BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:33, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
Style of the article downplays the threat posed by the far right
Hey the style of the article is not compable to similar articles on lets say uk and germany in those contries the extreme right is more insignifigant than in ukraine the electoral fortunes of the BNP and the NPD are far less than those of sloboda or right sector but they sre still talked about as serious threats to democracy.
Ukraine’s far right poses a threat to ukraine’s democratically elected leader Volodomyr zelensky as much as the far right of other contries so i dont understand why their thrat is minimized 217.140.202.221 (talk) 12:18, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
- IN what way do we down play it? Slatersteven (talk) 12:53, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
- The article opens by talking about how marginal Ukraine's far-right is in comparison to other Eastern European countries (due to its poor electoral performances) while burying other issues (hate crimes, glorification of Nazi collaborators) lower in the article, and then talks about the far-right elements among the pro-Russian separatists. No other article about far-right politics in European countries is written like this, and it seems like the article was rewritten in an active effort to downplay the Ukrainian far-right in an effort to avoid giving ammunition to the Russian government (which vastly exaggerates the influence of the far-right in Ukraine) in a violation of NPOV. 76.98.174.29 (talk) 15:57, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
- First issue, Well how many other European countries have a far-right that has this poor an election record? Second point, How many other countries have far-right separatists? But yes, in one repsct I suspect you are correct, it is written this way so as not to give undue credence to Russian propaganda. Slatersteven (talk) 16:00, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
- IP 76 has a point. The lead doesn't cover the contents of the body and its contents are absent from the body: basically most of the lead is now a self-standing section on "electoral support". It should become a section of the article or be merged with the section "Far-right political parties", and a new lead should be rewritten following WP:LEAD. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:43, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
- Really, seems to be the body mentions lack of support. Now you may have a point about moving some of this content to the body. Nor do I agree that (for example) the BNP is discussed "still" as a threat to democracy, I am unsure they have ever been described as a threat. Slatersteven (talk) 16:59, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
- As to the NPD, from the lede "Since its founding in 1964, the NPD has never managed to win enough votes on the federal level to cross Germany's 5% minimum threshold for representation in the Bundestag; it has succeeded in crossing the 5% threshold and gaining representation in state parliaments 11 times, including one-convocation entry to seven West German state parliaments between November 1966 and April 1968 and two-convocation electoral success in two East German states of Saxony and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern between 2004 and 2011.", so we do seem to cover its elections "success". Slatersteven (talk) 17:12, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that poor electoral results and lack of support are prominent contents that need to be reported in the lead. These are highly notable information that are covered by many RS dealing with far-right politics in Ukraine. In that respect IP 76 is wrong: we should reflect what RS say, and in recent years, surely because of Putin's war to "Ukrainian neo-Nazi", RS have often reported that far-right in Ukraine enjoys little support: and so should we. This article cannot and should not be like Far-right politics in Serbia, in Croatia, in Germany, etc. However, we should also comply with MOS:LEAD:
The lead should ... summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies ... significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article
. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 15:46, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that poor electoral results and lack of support are prominent contents that need to be reported in the lead. These are highly notable information that are covered by many RS dealing with far-right politics in Ukraine. In that respect IP 76 is wrong: we should reflect what RS say, and in recent years, surely because of Putin's war to "Ukrainian neo-Nazi", RS have often reported that far-right in Ukraine enjoys little support: and so should we. This article cannot and should not be like Far-right politics in Serbia, in Croatia, in Germany, etc. However, we should also comply with MOS:LEAD:
- IP 76 has a point. The lead doesn't cover the contents of the body and its contents are absent from the body: basically most of the lead is now a self-standing section on "electoral support". It should become a section of the article or be merged with the section "Far-right political parties", and a new lead should be rewritten following WP:LEAD. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:43, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
- First issue, Well how many other European countries have a far-right that has this poor an election record? Second point, How many other countries have far-right separatists? But yes, in one repsct I suspect you are correct, it is written this way so as not to give undue credence to Russian propaganda. Slatersteven (talk) 16:00, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
- The article opens by talking about how marginal Ukraine's far-right is in comparison to other Eastern European countries (due to its poor electoral performances) while burying other issues (hate crimes, glorification of Nazi collaborators) lower in the article, and then talks about the far-right elements among the pro-Russian separatists. No other article about far-right politics in European countries is written like this, and it seems like the article was rewritten in an active effort to downplay the Ukrainian far-right in an effort to avoid giving ammunition to the Russian government (which vastly exaggerates the influence of the far-right in Ukraine) in a violation of NPOV. 76.98.174.29 (talk) 15:57, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
Bellingcat is a reliable source? Right? RIGHT?
[1]Ukrainian Far-Right Extremists Receive State Funds to Teach "Patriotism" Apeholder (talk) 18:04, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
- No, not "right". Bellingcat is an extremely controversial and questionable source.
MrDemeanour (talk) 14:29, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
- Bellingcat is very reliable. Mhorg (talk) 16:37, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
- Bellingcat is reliable (see RSP). BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:20, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
Flag picture
I removed the flag of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army from the beginning of the article per WP:RS as the source (donbass.comments) is of very poor quality and the main article about the flag contradicts the implied assertion that it is connected to today's far-right politics. It would be similarly fringe-y to illustrate articles on far-right politics with today's Russian flag merely because it was used by Russian Nazi collaborators of the Russian Liberation Army. --SonicY (talk) 10:11, 23 July 2023 (UTC)