Talk:Iranian principlists

Right wing succeeded by Principlism but not same that

@Pahlevun: Hi. It was a long time that i want to talk with you about Principlism and former Right wing. During of Consolidation of the Iranian Revolution, political activities of Liberalists (including National Front and Freedom Movement) and Socialists (for example Mojahedin-e-Khalgh) became as illegal. At that years, IRP divided to two main group of politicians that known as Right and Left wings. There was this fractions also in Combatant Clergy Association. The Left wing took the power from 1981 by premiership of Mir-Hossein Mousavi. Left wing was formed from Combatant Clerics, Mojahedin Organization, Assembly of Imam's Line and Worker House. The Right wing took the power from 1989 by Presidency of Hashemi Rafsanjani. But Right wing devided to «Traditional» and «Modern» fractions at 1996. The Modern right wing became the Executives of Construction Party. Also the left wing divided to «Traditional» and «Modern» fractions after defeat of left wing in 4th Majlis election. The modern fractions of right and left wings politicians formed a coalition in 5th Majlis and backed Khatami at 1997 election. Khatami won that election and made the «2nd of Khordad Front» (later: Reformists Front) from «Modern left wing» and «Modern Right wing» politicians. After continuous defeats of Traditional right wing from 1997 to 2000, some politicians who claimed not a member of right wing(for example: Society of Devotees and Hossein Fadaee secretary-general of that party), formed the Principlism. Principlists established Alliance of Builders from Society of Devotees and Islamic Society of Engineers politicians. First rivalry of them against Reformists was at 2003 local elections...

So all of the former right wing is not Principlist now. Please read this articles for detailed informations: this, this, this, this and this are valuable articles and have many reliable sources. Also this and this news are good reports.

I should say something another. Rafsanjani who was the Leader of former Right wing, was not a Principlist. He was a politician of Moderate wing (Template:Lang-fa) (neither Principlist, nor Reformist) such as Hassan Rouhani and was leaded that wing until five months ago. Principlists backed principlist candidates in first round and backed Ahmadinejad in second round of 2005 election.

I think, the Moderate wing (include MDP, ECP and coalition of FDP) must be in Template:Iranian political parties as third wing of Iranian political parties.

regards Benyamin-ln (talk) 22:42, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

@Benyamin-ln: Hi. Thank you for your constructive and informative explanations. I think we have to discuss different topics. The Questions are:

1. Do the terms "Principlist", "Conservative" or "Right-wing" refer to different factions?
2. Are "Moderates" a genuine faction?

My answer to both questions is no. Many scholarly sources (including Harris (2017) and Amir Arjomand and Brown (2013) that I added to the article), acknowledge that the word 'principlist' is a neologism that the faction used to rebrand themselves, evade the word Mohafezekar and counter the term Eslahtalab. The same applies to the word Abadgaran that contrasted with Sazandegi (According to Halliday (2010) and Axworthy (2013); see Abadgaran#References).

I'm pretty familiar with Iran's Persian-language political jargon and well-aware of the usage of the word E'tedal since 2013, but as far as I have searched scholarly works, they do not consider "moderates" to be a genuine faction separate from principlists and refomists, and use the term in the moderate–hardliner dualism sense. Some use the term 'moderate conservative', refering to the pragmatist conservatives. So, figures like Larijani and Nategh (who are obviously principlist/conservative) are referred to as 'moderates'. In English-language sources, even in media, the term is not established to refer to an original faction founded in 2013.

[A little explanation off the reseaning mentioned above, just for the sake of clarification and not discussion: During the last two decades, several organizations claimed to be "the third way" (e.g. Association for Defence of Revolution Values, Freethinkers' Pinnacle Party, Green Party) but none of them were taken seriously or regarded so. Moderation and Development Party is now officially part of the supreme policymaking council of reformists and has described itself reformist in 2003, though it was also formerly described conservative, it was never considered to represent a faction called "moderates", independent from the principlist-reformist camps. Just like kargozaran who has always been regarded and even self-identifies reformist. The terms "right" and "left", the factions of the Islamic Republican Party during 1980s, refer to their economic tendency (liberal and socialist respectively) and not their worldview. They were both socially conservative, in favor of export of revolution, etc. Like IRP, Mojahedin of the Islamic Revolution Organization had right and left factions which later became Society of Devotees of the Islamic Revolution and Mojahedin of the Islamic Revolution of Iran Organization (So, Devotees are considered part of the right-wing as sourced in the article). Yes, kargozaran do consider itself to be the "Modern Right" and split from the right-wing (Ghouchani regularly mentions this in their organ Sazandegi) and it is reflected in the article as well. But the only similarity between Kargozaran and "the right-wing" is their capitalist attitude towards economy. They do not share social coservative views, nor domestic/foreign policy of the latter.] –Pahlevun (talk) 15:24, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your attention. I accept your explains to second question.

I can't speak english very well but i try to explain my ideas. Let me give you an example. During Iran Contra Affair, some high-rank politicians from right wing such as Hassan Rouhani Negotiated with Americans. Left-wingers hardly reacted to this news, because they opposing about Negotiating with West. But now you see that Opposition of Negotiations with West are Principlists (however Reformists longing for any negotiations). It was an example about difference of their worldview. At 1988, Left-wingers challenged right-winger in format of Coalition of the Oppressed and Deprived, but in 2017 Ebrahim Raisi (a principlist) named as Seyyed-e Mahrooman by his fans. He extremely challenged Rouhani's social policies.

I refer to Darabi (1388), Mozaffari (1387) and Shadlou (1386). According to Darabi (1388), some former left-wingers became principlist too. Also we knew some former right-wingers are reformist now (kargozarans). So my answer to first question is yes. Thus left-wing and reformism are refer to different factions, too. Benyamin-ln (talk) 21:49, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

I think we need more focus on the sources. Would you please bring more details on the sources above This is from the English translation of Encyclopaedia of the World of Islam (reference number 11 in the article):

After the Islamic right-wing and left-wing movements began to be referred to as the “conservative” or “principlist” (usulgara) and the “reformist” (islahtalab) movements respectively, the Jāme'e-ye Rowhāniyyat came to be categorised as a conservative political organization. (Murtajī, pp 7-9; Zārīfīnīyā, p.88; Dārābī, pp. 153-154, n.2)

It cites Dārābī as one of the sources, I wonder is it the same source you refer or not. Pahlevun (talk) 14:47, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

That cites to another book of Darabi which published at 2000 (Feyziyeh Politicians: Review, critique, background and performance of Combatant Clergy Association of Tehran) but I refer to newer book of him (Recognition of political streams in Iran). I cited to «The Right Stream [wing] did not turn into Principlism stream All at once, but after performing a process of planning and organizing the organization. (Darabi, pp. 134-145)». I got confused too...

I saw a new article from Saeed Hajjarian which published in ILNA. He pointed to the ideological changes of the left wing and right wing (the same changes I said): «Rouhani's final rival, [Raisi], raised several key slogans at the provincial trips and the socio-economic debate. Perhaps the most important of which was the establishment of social justice and the elimination of class distance ... These slogans, as we know from the beginning, belonged to the left wing. (19 June 2017)» Benyamin-ln (talk) 22:33, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Is Darabi we're talking about Ali Darabi? That's quite a surprise, because the Encyclopaedia of the World of Islam entry and pajoohe website refer to the same sources (Zārīfīnīyā and Dārābī) but they differ in the way they see the right-wing/conservatives. The former source seems more reliable to me, because its an encyclopaedia. Anyway, I'm currently searching for the sources on this and I'm going to add what I find to Political factions in Iran. I invite you to join me in the process, maybe we can reach a consensus. Pahlevun (talk) 14:11, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, he is. It was so complicated... I'm trying to find other sources too. Benyamin-ln (talk) 22:31, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

new cites

• Appear of gap between members of Right wing, cames this wing to a split-up and the dipole of Iranian politics from Left-Right changed to Reformists-Principlists.

References

Elections before 2001

@Pahlevun: Hi dear. why the section of Presidential elections began from 1997? Your opinion is that the terms "Principlist", "Conservative" or "Right-wing" didn't refer to different factions, (of course I didn't think same) so the July 1981, October 1981, 1985, 1989 and 1993 elections belongs to principlists. Also Prime ministership of Mir-Hossein Mousavi and won of 3rd Majlis belongs to Reformists. Benyamin-ln (talk) 13:32, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

The point is the 1997 election was the very first contested presidential election in Iran. Do you suggest to remove it? By the way, I'm still working on Political factions in Iran. Pahlevun (talk) 14:02, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes, until completeness of Political factions in Iran. It's very complicated... I searched about this subject in recent weeks and found a new scholar text. I working on this, too. Benyamin-ln (talk) 16:59, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 23 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 01:42, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

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Iranian Principlists → Iranian principlists – "Principlists" is not consistently capitalized in reliable sources; judging from Google Scholar results it's about 50-50. Per WP:NCCAPS it should therefore be in sentence case. I also wouldn't object to an alternate name such as "principlism (Iran)" or "principlists (Iran)", because it's not clear that the compound "Iranian P/principlists" is common enough for natural disambiguation to apply. (t · c) buidhe 21:20, 23 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 01:14, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support move to Iranian principlists (not principalists). Per above, and per MOS:DOCTCAPS: we do not capitalize political "camps", factions, movements, etc.; this is not a political party capitalized as a proper name across nearly all the source material. As for the spelling of the second word, "principlists" in the GScholar results is also about 50:50, maybe even a little toward lower-case [1]. There are 386 results for the "principlists" spelling and 284 for "principalists" (and a similar ratio for the singular form used attributively), so I think the original spelling should be kept (there's not a compelling reason to change it).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:41, 24 January 2024 (UTC); revised: 16:25, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
  • Sorry for the typo—fixed (t · c) buidhe 05:25, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

    Revised my !vote wording a bit since the RM proposal has since been changed to call for "principlists" instead of "principalists", though both spellings are well-attested, so asking the question about the a was pertinent anyway.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:25, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

• Since the lede opens with The Principlists, leading me to believe that the term is a used as a proper noun I would prefer a move to Principlists (Iran), but I'm not at all opposed to the title as proposed. estar8806 (talk) ★ 17:27, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

  It's not a specific political party. We wouldn't capitalize "monarchist faction" or "communist parties" either, according to WP:DOCTCAPS. (t · c) buidhe 01:22, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, and what the lead says is not a determining factor at RM, since leads are written to agree with article titles (MOS:LEADSENTENCE). Rather, the lead will be rewritten to agree with the new title if the page moves. Cf. WP:CIRCULAR: WP content is not a reliable source, so the lead being presently written a particular way isn't dispositive of any facts.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:21, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support – while it sounds like the kind of thing that could be a proper name, all the evidence in sources, where it's way more often lowercase, suggest that's not how it's interpreted. Dicklyon (talk) 16:00, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
• Comment. See wikt:principlist, wikt:principalist, wikt:principlism, and wikt:principalism. Is principalism simply a valid alternative spelling, or a word with some slightly different meaning? – wbm1058 (talk) 15:22, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

It seems like principalist / principalism should be related to having principals rather than having principles, but in practice they appear to just be minority spelling variants with the same meaning. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:31, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support—Iranian principlists. Tony (talk) 02:39, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
• Move to Principlists (Iranian faction) or Principlists (Iran) or -ism or similar. It seems like "Iranian" is only a disambiguator here. (Otherwise would support the lowercase suggestion per SMcCandlish and MOS:DOCTCAPS.) —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:03, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: There is currently a consensus to move, but no clear consensus on where to move to; relisting to allow additional discussion of the two options - Iranian principlists and Principlists (Iran) BilledMammal (talk) 01:14, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

• Move to Iranian principlists. Not sure why you think there's no consensus here, BilledMammal, the original proposal has sufficient support. But adding another support !vote anyway. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 11:16, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

  Any reaction to my comment? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:52, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.