Talk:Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8: 30 days

Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic:

You must be logged-in to an extended confirmed account (granted automatically to accounts with 500 edits and an age of 30 days)
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in limited circumstances)

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered.

Crime and Criminal Biography Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Death Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Disaster management Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Disaster management, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Disaster management on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Disaster managementWikipedia:WikiProject Disaster managementTemplate:WikiProject Disaster managementDisaster management articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Explosives Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Explosives, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Explosives on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ExplosivesWikipedia:WikiProject ExplosivesTemplate:WikiProject ExplosivesExplosives articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

Hospitals Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Hospitals, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Hospitals on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HospitalsWikipedia:WikiProject HospitalsTemplate:WikiProject HospitalsHospital articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Human rights Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Human rights on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Human rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Human rightsTemplate:WikiProject Human rightsHuman rights articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

International relations High‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Israel High‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related articles

High

This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Project Israel To Do:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Assess : Rate the Unassessed Israel-related articles and Unknown-importance Israel-related articles.
Cleanup : Cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category and the tool's wiki page.
Collaborate : Participate in WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration.
Copyedit : Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005
Deletion sorting : Participate in discussions at WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel.
Expand : Ayala Procaccia, Diamond industry in Israel, Edna Arbel, Levin Kipnis, Rami Kleinstein, Sephardic Haredim, Zman Tel Aviv, Nachum Heiman, Public Defence (Israel), Prisoner of Zion, Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu, Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran, Pre-Modern Aliyah
See also Articles needing translation from Hebrew Wikipedia.
Geographical coordinates : Add geographic coordinates to Israel articles missing geocoordinate data.
Infobox : Add infoboxes to Israel articles needing infoboxes.
Maintain : See Israel articles needing attention.
Map : See discussion at Module:Location map/data/Israel. Add maps to articles in Wikipedia requested maps in Israel.
NPOV : Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries
Photo : Add pictures to articles in Wikipedia requested photographs in Israel.
Stubs : See Israel stubs.
Update : Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People
Other :
- Translate to Hebrew : David Bar-Hayim, Guy Bavli, and Guy Oseary.

Israel Palestine Collaboration

This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration, a collaborative, bipartisan effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. For guidelines and a participants list see the project page. See also {{Palestine-Israel enforcement}}, the ArbCom-authorized discretionary sanctions, the log of blocks and bans, and Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars. You can discuss the project at its talk page.Israel Palestine CollaborationWikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine CollaborationTemplate:WikiProject Israel Palestine CollaborationIsrael Palestine Collaboration articles

Military history: Middle East / Post-Cold War Start‑class

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

Start

This article has been rated as Start-class on the project's quality scale.

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	Middle Eastern military history task force
	Post-Cold War task force

Palestine High‑importance

	Palestine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

It is requested that an image or photograph of Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion be included in this article to improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific media request template where possible.
The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites.

Upload

The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

Reactions to strike on Gaza hospital killing hundreds - Reuters, 17 October 2023

This article has been mentioned by a media organization:

Stephen Harrison (October 26, 2023). "Wikipedia Is Covering the War in Israel and Gaza Better Than X". Slate. Retrieved October 31, 2023. The page for the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion states that the "cause of the explosion is contested." Hamas has claimed that Israel carried out an airstrike on the hospital, while Israel, the United States, France, and Canada have said that their intelligence sources indicate that the cause of the explosion was a failed rocket launch by the Palestinian Islamic Jihad from within Gaza.

Is the neutrality of this article still disputed?

There is a POV tag on this article since Nov 2023.

Is the neutrality still disputed or can the tag be removed? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 01:17, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewing the talkpage history, there has been no active POV discussion for some time. Additionally, the issues for which it was originally raised have been resolved long ago. I've removed the POV maintenance tag accordingly. It can always be re-instated if there are new NPOV concerns raised. Aeonx (talk) Aeonx (talk) 22:19, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, I removed the "globalize" tag as well, since the editor who added it did so without explanation or discussion (and that editor has since been topic banned also). IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 22:28, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It should be written that the racketeer was Palestinian in fact

This is a fact, only anti-Semites can say that it is an Israeli rocket and to decree it 1 The most unreliable sources regarding the war in Israel מושיקו מהאבטיחים17 (talk) 10:35, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Forensic Architecture Analysis

Source:

https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/israeli-disinformation-al-ahli-hospital

This new analysis conflicts with statements in this main section of this article such as "The consensus from various independent studies of videos, images, and eyewitness reports of the explosion, its aftermath, and the blast area suggests that an errant rocket launch from within Gaza is the most probable cause."

Also, it is interesting that the many of the analyses parroting the Israeli narrative are in the main, but analyses which clash against it are absent from it. The neutrality of this article seems rather absent.

Analyses such as that from Channel 4 and Forensic Architecture need to be given brief mentions to maintain neutrality and ensure each source gets proper weight. Formless Entity (talk) 12:31, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Forensic Architecture's initial analysis is mentioned in the article as it has been mentioned by several media outlets (though it's that it hasn't been challenged). If this analysis is also widely reported on by reliable source, we should mention it too, probably replacing their initial findings. Alaexis_¿question? 19:13, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Norway in reactions

Should it be under Norway when it is an director of an independent non state organisation making a statement? All the other countries are statements from their government. 80.217.100.31 (talk) 01:34, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Done. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 02:03, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just a quick thing it is misspelled, it should be Norwegian not norwegin. 80.217.100.31 (talk) 11:18, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Done. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 11:23, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. 49.197.224.249 (talk) 08:59, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are lots of government level reactions in other languages that are missing in the English version here. French has Arab League, African union, EU, and UN. Spanish has a few individual countries that aren't here, and Arabic has 16 that mostly aren't here. 49.197.224.249 (talk) 09:11, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic article wildly different than English article

Why is the arabic version and the english version wildly different?

The english version: "On 17 October 2023, an explosion took place in the parking lot of the courtyard of al-Ahli Arab Hospital in Gaza City during the Israel–Hamas war, resulting in a large number of fatalities and injuries among displaced Palestinians seeking shelter there." "The consensus from various independent studies of videos, images, and eyewitness reports of the explosion, its aftermath, and the blast area suggests that an errant rocket launch from within Gaza is the most probable cause. While this is not a conclusive finding, it is currently considered the likeliest explanation based on the evidence gathered in investigations"

The arabic version translated: "The Baptist Hospital massacre, also known as the Arab National Hospital massacre, is a massacre committed by the Israeli Air Force when it raided the Arab National Hospital “Al-Baptist” in the Al-Zaytoun neighborhood, south of Gaza City, in the early night hours of October 17, 2023. The raid hit Violent Israeli air strikes in the hospital courtyard, which contained dozens of wounded, as well as hundreds of displaced civilians, most of whom were women and children. The Israeli massacre caused a real disaster. It tore apart the bodies of the victims, making them scattered and burned, while the hospital turned into a pool of blood. The National Arab Baptist Hospital is one of the oldest hospitals in the Gaza Strip, and is affiliated with the Anglican Episcopal Church in Jerusalem." Isnr13 (talk) 22:49, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because the Arabic version is written by Arabic-speaking editors, mostly from the Middle East/North African, using MENA news sources, which usually have a significant bias when it comes to coverage of Israel and Palestine. Mooonswimmer 23:51, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mooonswimmer Why would Arabic speakers from MENA region be more biased - or less well informed - than English speakers from North America, Europe, and India? Most people actually in Gaza speak Arabic, if they speak a second language it's more often Hebrew than English. Arabic speakers are more likely to have an accurate understanding of the situation in Gaza. The English speaking world is getting a second or third hand version filtered through a small number of major media outlets, e.g. CNN https://www.theguardian.com/media/2024/feb/04/cnn-staff-pro-israel-bias whose own staff have complained about bias and distortion. 49.197.224.249 (talk) 08:22, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

order of death counts in stats box

Why are the death counts listed smallest to largest in the stats summary box at the top? Why is the actual body count listed after two very rough estimates? 49.197.224.249 (talk) 08:01, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The last one, 471 is the actual body count. It is the most precise and probably the most reliable. That is the actual body count from the following day, and it matches local estimates based on how many people were in the area. The initial local estimate was 500, that was reported by Al Jazeera, who have numerous journalists actually in Gaza. So 471, the actual count and matches the most reliable estimates closest to the event, 471 is the most reliable number.The initial local estimate was 500, that was reported by Al Jazeera, who have numerous journalists actually in Gaza. So 471, the actual count and matches the most reliable estimates closest to the event, 471 is the most reliable number. 49.197.224.249 (talk) 08:30, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Even the references for the other two numbers BOTH list 471 before the estimates they are used to support.

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231018-what-we-know-about-the-deadly-blast-at-gaza-city-s-al-ahli-hospital

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/18/al-ahli-arab-hospital-piecing-together-what-happened-as-israel-insists-militant-rocket-to-blame

So those references don't justify including the estimates before the actual body count. 49.197.224.249 (talk) 08:40, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The 250 count is an outdated initial estimate that really doesn't belong there at all. Possibly it could be mentioned in the text, but not before the actual body count in the summary stats box. In the summary stats box 250 is misleadingly presented as authoritative by saying it is the estimate from the hospital director. But the reference, a France 24 article, gives more context. When they asked the director his main response was about struggling to save hundreds of wounded, 250 is (at best) a wild guess from a man who is very busy with other things. They don't quote the context for 250, just the number, so it might even be his estimate of how many people died instantly, which does not include people dying of their injuries in the hours that followed. 49.197.224.249 (talk) 08:58, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The 250 estimate is already in the body text, but just as misleadingly as it is on the stats box. The AP article [1] says "Mohammed Abu Selmia, said he thought the toll was closer to 250, based on the casualties he saw streaming into the triage center" but the France 24 article listed says "Ambulances and private cars rushed some 350 casualties to Gaza City’s main hospital, al-Shifa, which was already overwhelmed with wounded from other strikes" so whoever was coming in the door wasn't everyone. 49.197.224.249 (talk) 09:23, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The summary box lead figure of 100 to 300 in the stats box isn't even listed in the body text? 49.197.224.249 (talk) 09:23, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]