Template talk:The Holocaust sidebar

Edit warring

Please discuss contentious edits here on the talk page instead of reverting the article. Although the three-revert rule permits three reverts per day, this is not an entitlement, and disruptive editors may still be blocked for violating the spirit behind 3RR. Thank you. EyeSerene^talk 08:47, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I am not part of this edit warring but......

If anybody will try to add again and again Jasenovac on this list it will be blocked because of last year consensus. Yes consensus can change but until then .... My proposition for administrators which are part of this discussion (about Jasenovac) is to talk with Mackensen.--Rjecina (talk) 01:01, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

• Jasenovac Concentration Camp was an extermination camp. There is consensus on the academic/scholar level confirming this historic fact. That fact is accepted by Wikipedia here [1] (Jasenovac concentration camp (Croatian, Serbian: Logor Jasenovac; Cyrillic script: Логор Јасеновац) was the largest concentration and extermination camp in Independent State of Croatia during World War II.) and here [2] (The Ustaše collaborators conducted a systematic extermination of large numbers of people for political, religious or racial reasons. The most numerous victims were Serbs The USHMM and Jewish Virtual Library reports between 56,000 and 97,000 persons were killed at the Jasenovac concentration camp[74][75][76] However, Yad Vashem reports 600,000 deaths at Jasenovac.[77]). Also the same fact is visible in the Encyclopedia of Holocaust and the Encyclopedia Britannica. Personal point of view of a few editors, lead not by knowledge but rather by some irrational reasons, are not obligatory here.--Don Luca Brazzi (talk) 02:04, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Also, Google Books/Scholar searches gave a large number of scholar references classifying the Jasenovac concentration camp as the extermination camp too - see [3] and [4]--Don Luca Brazzi (talk) 02:38, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
    • I agree that Jasenovac was a death camp, however... in terms of the Holocaust there have always been six camps designated as extermination camps: Auschwitz-Berkinau, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka. Perhaps another designation is needed for camps like Jasenovac or Maly Trostenets. We could designate the traditional six as "Main extermination camps" and have a section below entitled "Other extermination camps." How does that sound as a compromise? AniMate 02:52, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
      • Agree with AniMate. It is pretty clear that Jasenovac was an extermination camp, but all the other extermination camps listed were Nazi camps (other than Treblinka in Poland, I think), while Jasenovac was controlled by the Ustaše. The question is, is this going to be all extermination camps enacted during World War II, or should we stay with a specific focus on Nazi-controlled ones? The Ustaše were protected by Germany and Italy but they were still a completely separate organization, so to speak. A puppet rather than direct control. At the Holocaust article, Jasenovac is mentioned mostly for the Southern Slavs killed, but here, it is being placed under the Jews. I think it could go under the "Other victims" subsection as an extermination camp there. Does that seem like a decent compromise? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
        • I didn't even see that section in the template. Seems like a pretty easy to implement solution. Still, I find it rather puzzling that people are edit warring over this template when it has never been used in the actual article on Jasenovac. AniMate 03:11, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
          • Maybe my compromise will be OK (this is taken from old version of article) ?
          • Use of template in article Jasenovac (and everything connected with that) is defeated in RFC with votes 5:1--Rjecina (talk) 03:15, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
            • While I certainly agree that Serbs belong in the "Other victims" section, your declaration that the problem is solved ignores the fact that we were specifically discussing Jasenovac and if it should be included in the template not the article about persecution of the Serbs. As for your statement about a previous Rfc, votes, and the template being defeated... you have much to learn about collaboration, consensus, and the correct language to use when discussing controversial topics with people who disagree with you. AniMate 03:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
              • • I do not like situations in which new account is demanding changes in article and we all are then starting discussion about that. I and you are having experiance (bad ?) with similar situations.
                • To answer your proposition about "Other extermination camps" we must know number of this camps. Answer is 5, 10, 20 or ... ? In my thinking members of all european nations will start to add camps in that section and then template will have another problem.--Rjecina (talk) 03:43, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Rjecina, accept it. Until we get a better checkuser system (one that doesn't take three weeks to get to) or we just start blocking people from entire cities, we are going to keep getting "new" users trying to game the system. It's part of the process. I hate having to repeat the same arguments to users who clearly know very complex wiki markup (this template isn't exactly simple to find), but who play the "I don't know your rules" game but I accept it. It's just the way things work. If too many other camps are wanted, we'll deal with it then. The question, where is the line now? I think it should be in a separate heading at best but if Don Luca doesn't come back, I would suggest we go to the consensus which is without them. If someone new comes in and argues again (which I suspect), then we'll deal with it then. But we'll make it clear that multiple users gaming the system over time isn't the way to make friends. If someone wants to get something done, you are going to have to argue it based on a reputation. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:23, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

• All above is an attempt to push a blatant POV and a misinterpretation of the Wikipedia's consensus. The facts are:
  - Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, MacMillan, New York, 1990 vol. II, entry Jasenovac by Menachem Shelach on pages 739-740
  - Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, MacMillan, New York, 1990 vol. IV, entry Sajmiste by Menachem Shelach on pages 1323-1324
  - The same fact is already accepted by Wikipedia here [5] and here [6] and here [7]
  
  So the conclusion is obvious - Jasenovac i Sajmiste are the Holocaust terms and any vote as the ones above is null and void. Bear in mind that Jasenovac was added to this template at least twice - last time by an Israeli citizen; so you have at least three people including me who already voted against this nonsense.--Don Luca Brazzi (talk) 21:39, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Don Luca, please don't come in here with about how the conclusion is "obvious." Are you at all interested in discussion in compromise or are just going to namecall everyone who disagrees with you to start? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:35, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Ricky you are wrong in you thinking that I always think about puppets of banned users. For me it is not important if new user is really new or somebody puppet. I am protecting established versions of articles against new (or "new") accounts which are "guilty" of massive rewriting of controversial articles. Normal situation is that we try to talk with new user and if he is accepting wikipedia rules then OK. You have seen that I am talking even with users which are waiting "Croatian economy to collapse because Croatian culture is not worth preserving" [8], but my only demand is that they accept Wikipedia rules, or that administrators will enforce wikipedia rules.

My problem with this situation is fact that administrators are refusing to enforce even Wikipedia:Consensus which is Fourth pillar of Wikipedia code of conduct. What is point in consensus if administrators refusing to enforce consensus against newly created SPA accounts ?

Consensus about template and Jasenovac has been reached in November 2007

User:Don Luca Brazzi has been warned by me that his edits are against consensus [9] and he has edited on talk page where this consensus is reached. In the end this "new" account knows in which way wikipedia is working [10] so he can't say that he do not know wiki rules.

Because of all reasons I am asking consensus enforcement (administrator restoration of version before last User:Don Luca Brazzi revert) and "award" for User:Don Luca Brazzi because of edit warring. After day or 2 he can return to discussion about new (?) consensus !--Rjecina (talk) 16:25, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

This isn't a straightforward issue. It's clear that Jasenovac wasn't one of the Nazi extermination camps, so it really shouldn't be in that category on the template. However, it's also clear that the Croatian government was a puppet government, that the camp was run along Nazi lines, and that most of the country's Jews were killed there. Most of the scholarly books about the Holocaust that I have on my shelves do not include Jasenovac, including the official book of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, which doesn't mention it that I can see. On the other hand, some notable scholars do include it e.g. Saul Friedländer in his highly respected Nazi Germany and the Jews 1939-1945: The Years of Extermination, pp. 227-230, particularly p. 229, where he calls Jasenovac "the uniquely Croat Jasenovac extermination camp," citing Menachem Shelah, "Jasenovac," in Yisrael Gutman (ed) Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, 1990, vol 2, pp. 739-40.

Should there perhaps be two sections — one for the Nazi extermination camps i.e. the camps erected and directly controlled by the Germans, and a second category for "other" extermination camps, or "camps run by puppet regimes"?

It would be good to know exactly what Shelah says about Jasenovac in the Encyclopedia. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 17:37, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

We are having quotations and comments added by member of Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee about this ?--Rjecina (talk) 18:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Was that a question, or was the question mark a typo? SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 18:21, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

To solve this question 1 time for all I have called in 2007 RFC members of Arbitration Committee, but this will never end.

Maybe is time for me to say my thinking about this ?

Yes Jasenovac has been extermination camp (maybe even greatest non Holocaust camp), but there is agreement between Holocaust scholars that Jasenovac is not Holocaust extermination camp. Official Holocaust sites (Yad Vashem center, USHMM, Jewish Virtual library), are saying many things about Jasenovac but never that it is Holocaust extermination camp.

We can create new consensus that all WWII extermination camps are on this list and this is all. If we want to create new consensus about this we must call RFC because I am sure that we will have many interested editors.--Rjecina (talk) 18:47, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

ArbCom members have no special influence over content issues such as this one, though of course their opinions as regular editors are respected.

Regarding how the camps are described, can you find any scholar who calls even Auschwitz a "Holocaust extermination camp"? It would be an odd expression to use.

Point is that some scholars do include deaths at Jasenovac as deaths in the Holocaust, so it's perfectly acceptable for us to do the same. On the other hand, we shouldn't include it as a Nazi extermination camp, given that the Germans appear to have had no direct control over the camp itself, though they clearly did have significant influence over Croatia's policies, especially its policies toward Jews.

I think an RfC is an excellent idea. Given that even Holocaust scholars can't agree about this, it's going to be up to Wikipedians to decide how best to handle it, and it's a sensitive issue, so the more people are involved, the better. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 19:10, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, I meant to add that I'm sorry you're feeling so frustrated about this. I've dealt with similar issues before, and I know how frustrating it can be. We're dealing with an area of history that's in flux, that's the problem, with definitions of the Holocaust changing, with even the same scholarly sources using the term differently within the same book. Then you get editors arriving with very particular, and completely understandable, nationalist or ethnic sensitivities, who feel outraged that the damage done to their fellow countrymen is being ignored, or somehow downgraded. It's a very difficult situation. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 19:15, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for frustrated part.

1 small mistake. Holocaust scholars agree that there is 6 historical Holocaust extermination camp (not Jasenovac, Sajmište or ....). I am sure that there is no problem to find confirmation of this fact using google (I am saying that without looking). Other thing is our discussion about adding all extermination camps to this list.

I will let you call RFC (we are having agreement) because I do not want to start 3rd RFC in 7 days because of new account edit warring (Don Luca Brazzi). This is fact and not incivility (Magnum Crimen, Jasenovac). Now I will take 60 hours break from article talk page to leave place for other editors writing (we can continue our discussion on our talk pages). It will be interesting for me to see on saturday how this discussion is heading--Rjecina (talk) 19:31, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Rjecina, it's more appropriate for one of the editors of the template to start the RfC. I can't get too involved because I've protected it. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 19:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

According to my understanding, there was a clear distinction by the Nazis between extermination camps and concentration camps. The former are "death factories", designed for the purpose of mass murder, where most of the victims were murdered shortly after arrival. The distinction wasn't as clear in camps operated by the Ustase in Croatia. By the Nazi definition, Jasenovac wasn't an extermination camp, and by most characters it was very different from the extermination camps in Poland. But as the Ustase's main "enemy" were Serbs, and the Nazis had no interest in genocide of Serbs, so sending them to extermination camps wasn't an option, the Ustase used Jasenovac and other camps for mass murder of Serbs, but by Nazi yardstick, it was very far from a systematic "death factory". As far as Jews were concerned, they were "by product" for the Ustase, and were taken to Croat concentration camps as a "favour" for the Germans, and were intended to be sent to die in the "classic" extermination camps. But, as was the case in many concentration camps throughout Europe, the hard labour, harsh living conditions, and the resulted spread of deseases killed many detainees while they were in concentration camps, and they didn't survive long enough until it was their time to be sent to Auschwith etc. As being in the "premier league" of camps as far as harsh conditions and brutal treatment of guards are concerned, the "natural" death rate at Jasenovac was among the highest.
Bottom line: I wouldn't consider Jasenovac as extermination camp, definitely not by Nazi definition.
Disclaimer: My mother's side of the family were Croat Jews, and as such many of them were detained at Jasenovac and other camps in Croatia. My grandfather is among the numerous victims in Jasenovac, my grandmother was detained at Loborgrad camp and died in Auschwitz. Several other relatives also were victims of Nazi-Ustase genocide--Nitsansh (talk) 07:24, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

It's important to know the timeline of the concentration/extermination camps. Concentration camps existed in Germany since 1933, but were used primarily to treat German political and social "enemies". After the Nazis occupied Poland in 1939, they erected the Ghetos, which is a form of concentration camps. But this sort of "camps" were almost unique to Poland. As far as I know, in the countries occupied during 1940 (Denmark, Norway, Benelux & France) there were no concentration camps at the time of the invasion to Yugoslavia in early April 1941. It should be also noted that the invasion to USSR and the mass murder by the Einsatzgruppen that followed it didn't start until 2 months later (June 22 1941). The first Nazi extermination camp was also yet to be established. It isn't clear that at that point in the Holocaust timeline it was allready decided by Hitler that the "final solution" to the "Jewish problem" is total extermination. So, at the time that Jasenovac and other camps in Croatia were established in the summer of 1941, there was no "Nazi model" of extermination camps that the Ustase could copy into their territory. In the first stage at least, Jasenovac functioned as a camp of hard labour, which resulted in numerous deaths, but in this character it's not very different from the Ghetos in Poland. As previousely said, the majority of Ustase victims were Serbs, and the Jews were quite a small minority. As far as I understand, it was a sort of "deal", in which the Nazis gave the Ustase permission to treat the Serbs as they wished (and they certainly knew what it means), and in exchange they will also do the same to the Jews, therefor saving the Germans the need to treat the Jews themselves. It should be noted that at that time, the Croats were the only ally country of the Nazis that fully agreed to implement the Nazis measures toward their Jewish inhabitants. No other axis country, as far as I know, killed the Jews on a massive scale by its own forces, but "just" rounded them up and handed over to the German authorities. And in most countries, this was done later in the war, from 1942 onwards, as the "death factories" in Poland reached full operation. In Croatia, the Jews that survived the Ustase camps were eventually sent to extermination camps in Poland (mainly Auschwitz), and this was done in the summer of 1943, IE after about 2 years in the camps, and by that time the majority of detainees were dead. This was also a deal between the Germans and Croats, as the Ustase regime recieved money for the Jews they "gave" to the Germans. Very few inmates of the Ustase camps system managed to survive the war. Most of the Croatian Jews that survived managed to escape to the Italian-controlled zone, where they were safe from persecution of the Ustase. This is a fact very little known about WW2: The Italians saved hundred-thousands of Jews, not only in their own country but also in their occupied territories.--Nitsansh (talk) 22:45, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

• A discussion shall not be based on personal views - rather on the deep and profound knowledge of the discussed topic. I do not see any of the scholar references supporting your 'bottom line'.--Don Luca Brazzi (talk) 23:51, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Don Luca Brazzi like you are knowing very good deep and profound knowledge of the discussed is not needed for discussion or edits on wikipedia !

I am having 4 lists of Holocaust extermination camps. This lists are [11] [12] [13] [14] . Because it is not possible to add all "minor" camps in template (see list) I am again asking administrators to enforce 2007 consensus about Jasenovac because we are having enough respected wikipedia sources (this links and books added from previous consensus) which are showing that Holocaust scholars are accepting "only" 6 Holocaust extermination camps!--Rjecina (talk) 15:29, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe is time to add better sources (who is behind this sources) which are speaking about "only" 6 Holocaust extermination camps:

Middle Tennessee University [15]

Florida Center for Instructional Tehnology [16]

USHMM Extermination camps are called killing centers

This Holocaust Teacher Resource Center Holocaust chronology with all camps

Site Holocaustsurvivors.org [17]

I am not having problem with adding of Jasenovac, Sajmište or Banjica in this template, but we must have sources which will say that they are Holocaust Extermination Camps.--Rjecina (talk) 11:10, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I gave a source above for Jasenovac — Saul Friedländer in Nazi Germany and the Jews 1939-1945: The Years of Extermination, pp. 227-230, particularly p. 229, where he calls Jasenovac "the uniquely Croat Jasenovac extermination camp," citing Menachem Shelah, "Jasenovac," in Yisrael Gutman (ed) Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, 1990, vol 2, pp. 739-40. He doesn't use the expression "Holocaust extermination camp," which is a kind of odd phrase, but he's a Holocaust scholar writing about the Holocaust, and he includes that camp.

I suggest you put up that RfC you mentioned last week to get more eyes on the page, or run with Animate's compromise of listing those camps in a separate section. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 18:45, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Let me see... There is agreement between me, you, user:Animate and Ricky81682 that for Holocaust schoolars Jasenovac is not Holocaust extermination camp. Now because you 3 are thinking that Jasenovac must be on the list we will add this camp ? My advice for administrators is to read rules Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Fringe theories.

For anybody who is thinking that we must create sub-category in which we will have Jasenovac and maybe few other camps my advice is to read Wikipedia:NPOV and Wikipedia:POV pushing because I do not know how is possible to explain that 1 extermation camp will be on this list and other not. Who will make decision about that ?

I will not call RFC because we will have "good old" Balkan nationalism without any interesting arguments and in next few days I will be on new wiki vaccation.

For the end I am not frustrated with actions of newly created edit warring account, but I am frustrated with administrators which have refusing to enforce old consensus and which are refusing to accept Holocaust scholars--Rjecina (talk) 16:09, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Rjecina, my views here don't count toward any consensus, because I'm the admin who protected the page, so I can't also count as a regular editor. I'm offering some opinions only in case they're helpful.

Regarding the expression "Holocaust extermination camp," you're not going to find any scholar who uses those exact words, at least I can't imagine you will, because it's an odd phrase. The question is only whether scholars include the disputed camps when discussing the Holocaust, and as we've seen, some do. Perhaps we could ask Wikiproject Jewish History (though that might not be exactly the right name of it) to give us their views. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 00:58, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes I can agree with your statement that it is very hard to find scholars which are using words Holocaust extermination camp, but you must agree with me that scholars are speaking about 6 Holocaust camps and we are never having Jasenovac or Sajmište on this list. For me this situation is similar to situation in which Ricky has demanded: "provide an opposition proof" for statement about Franz Ferdinand king of Yugoslavia [18] ????

Maybe I am making mistake but rules of wikipedia are saying that user (or users) which want to add this camp (or any controversial statement) must provide proof that this is Holocaust extermination camp or we are changing rules ?--Rjecina (talk) 01:48, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break

Most of the literature I have read refers to Jasenovac as an extermination camp, including texts from Yad Vashem. My concern is that Jasenovac may not qualify as a "Holocaust extermination camp," which is indeed an odd phrase. Just like the Porajmos refers to the genocide of the Roma people, the Holocaust generally refers to the genocide of the European Jews and Jasenovac was primarily concerned with the genocide of the Serbian people. That's why I think a sub-category would be appropriate rather than adding it to the "main" extermination camp category. However, as Jews were indeed massacred there I believe the camp should be included in the template. AniMate 22:32, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

If you want to create sub category you must find scholary source which is speaking about other camps which will be on this list. Can you please find this source ?--Rjecina (talk) 16:26, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Aside from SlimVirgin's reference from Saul Friedländer, there is also this from Yad Vashem. And from Google books: [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] [48] [49] [50] [51] [52]

Are these satisfactory? AniMate 04:32, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

We are having agreement that Jasenovac is extermination camp (how many times I need to write this), so this links are not adding anything new to discussion (or I have looked wrong links ?). Problem is if we will create sub section question is which other camps will be on this list. I have discovered 2-3 other camps but question is which source will be used for naming of this camps. Yes our "edit warring" will end with creation of this subsection and adding of Jasenovac, but can you please think about other nations which will start similar edit warring about other camps ?

In the end name of this template is Holocaust. Can you please tell how is possible to add Jasenovac if term "Holocaust" specifically refers to the acts of Nazi Germany against European Jews ?--Rjecina (talk) 04:46, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

In the template, we also have a section titled "Other victims of the Nazis" and the addition of this subsection is a kind of extension of this. As for justifying the inclusion despite Jews not being the main victims, the reality is that Jews were victims in these camps as well. Finally, I'm not too concerned about edit warring over the inclusion of an "Other extermination camps" as the main person objecting to them is... you. Besides, I firmly believe that most Wikipedians are willing to come to talk pages and work things out rather than edit warring and I also firmly believe that most people will not object to attempts to expose more readers and users to other victims of the Nazis and their allies. Honestly, the easiest answer in regards to inclusion: these camps are related to the Holocaust. Anyone who argues otherwise is either self-deluded or lying. AniMate 07:41, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

There is agreement about self-deluded or lying, because I can't understand how NPOV editor can say in discussion about commander of Jasenovac camp that articles about Nazi concentration camp personnel are awful (about Croatian commander is "OK") and then demand rewriting of articles only about Croatia. If I really think that articles are awful I will rewrite articles about all Nazi concentration camp personnel, but I am honest and naive....--Rjecina (talk) 14:56, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

You are unfairly misquoting me. I said those articles were awful because they had "no inline citations and those few that do are... of vague origins". AniMate 21:25, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Page protected

Hi, there's no point in reverting back and forth over the same issue, so I've protected the page for a week. Hopefully you can reach some kind of compromise. Cheers, SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 01:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

The protection expired and User:Rjecina reverted immediately. Even though I somewhat agree with that version, I want to make sure the war doesn't just continue so I reverted. I still think Jasenovac shouldn't go under "Jews" but go into another section. Other views?-- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:39, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I actually agree as well, though the idea of putting external links into a template is just horrible and unnecessary. I clearly agree with your reversion. Protection is used to encourage discussion, not as a countdown to resuming an edit war. AniMate 09:58, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Ricky81682 can you please stop to write false statement ( reverted immediately ) about my edits (this is not 1 similar mistake) ? Protection has ended on 01:35, 14 October 2008. 17 hours after end of protection I have asked administrator which has protected article about this [53] and he has not answered. Now can you please explain you words "reverted immediately" which has happened ulmost 53 hours afer end of protection (and it is not revert because of sources) and what is source of statement that Jasenovac is Holocaust extermination camps.

All scholars list are speaking about "only" 6 Holocaust extermination camps ? Your (or anybody else) private thinking of 7 or 1000 Holocaust extermination camps is not important for wikipedia ? --Rjecina (talk) 10:22, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Ricky probably should temper his statement, but the fact remains that we shouldn't be adding external links to templates. I don't know how many articles this template is used in, but I can guarantee that when other editors see external links added into tons of articles without discussion there's going to be trouble. AniMate 10:35, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

We are having agreement about everything --Rjecina (talk) 11:00, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Why to remove parts of discussion?

I could disagree with someone, disagree to something - but removal of a part of discussion I do not see civil.

So from the removed text - I am putting back very useful information

Encyclopedia of the Holocaust included in the dictionary of the holocaust five entries - Ante Pavelic, Ustashe, Independent State of Croatia, Jasenovac, and Sajmiste. So the *bottom lines* as *I wouldn't consider Jasenovac as extermination camp, definitely not by Nazi definition.*, or *Most of the scholarly books about the Holocaust that I have on my shelves do not include Jasenovac, including the official book of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, which doesn't mention it that I can see.* are dishonest at least. See the truth here: [54], [55], [56], [57] and especially about Jasenovac and Sajmiste listed under the title 'Yad Vashem The Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority' - here [58].

It shows clearly that the Jews included both Jasenovac and Sajmiste in the Holocaust era extermination camps. This fact must be respected.--Don Luca Brazzi (talk) 00:11, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry but this links are saying very different story.

First link is speaking about Serbian historians which are trying to sell story about Jasenovac "Holocaust Extermination camp" to Yad Vashem [59]

Definition for Jasenovac in second source is: "Jasenovac - the largest concentration and extermination camp in Croatia" [60]

Source number 3 is speaking about Jasenovac camp complex and not about Jasenovac "Holocaust Extermination camp". [61]

Source number 4 is speaking about "chronicles crimes committed during the Holocaust in Croatia and highlights artifacts from the Jasenovac Memorial Area Collection." Again not about crimes in Jasenovac "Holocaust extermination camp" [62]

Must interesting source is number 5. User is demanding that Jasenovac and Sajmište are added to Holocaust template because they are on this list. For me is interesting why in his thinking we must add this 2 camps and not all extermination camps which are on this list (like for example Buchenwald) [63] . In my thinking only possible answer is that Jasenovac and Sajmište are on Croatian territory (during WWII) and Buchenwald and other camps are outside of Croatian territory. This is clear example of POV pushing !

Maybe is time that I say this again: I will support adding of all extermination camps in template, but I will block any try to add only "Croatian camps" (Sajmište is Nazi camp od Croatian territory)--Rjecina (talk) 01:07, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Because there has been talk about Yad Vashem it will be very good to look article about extermination camps which is writen by this organization [64]--Rjecina (talk) 01:14, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

One of the Yad Vashem links you gave above says, "Established in August 1941 and dismantled only in April 1945, Jasenovac is known for having been one of the most barbaric death camps of the Holocaust ..." That's pretty close to them calling it by the phrase you say sources must use — "Holocaust extermination camp." [65] SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 01:15, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes it is close, but like you can see in that even in this article they have used definition "Jasenovac - the largest concentration and extermination camp in Croatia".

On other side you are having all other sources--Rjecina (talk) 01:25, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

No one's denying it was in Croatia. The questions are (a) whether it is regarded as an extermination camp involved in the Holocaust, and (b) whether it should be referred to as a Nazi extermination camp. It looks to me from the conversation above that editors (and the sources) are saying yes to (a), and no to (b), which is why Animate suggested including it in a separate category. What is your view of Animate's suggestion? SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 01:48, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Wrong. Answer on (a) is no and answer on (b) is no. AniMate is saying "Jasenovac may not qualify as a Holocaust extermination camp,..." and Ricky is saying "I still think Jasenovac shouldn't go under "Jews" but...". Because of that answer on (a) is no ! For me problem is that I am looking everything black or white, and others want to use many colours (it is not but....,)

I will end this with words of users from last RFC:

"Right or wrong, the term "Holocaust" specifically refers to the acts of Nazi Germany against European Jews" (User:Ledenierhomme), "the term Holocaust should not be applied for other ethnicities. It has been traditionally refering only to the destruction of European Jews" (User:AccountInquiry), "The template is misleading and should be removed. It suggests that this was part of the Holocaust campaign, which it wasn't" (User:Sxeptomaniac).

Can somebody please explain what has during last 12 months ?? I am calling all users from last RFC to enter this discussion --Rjecina (talk) 02:29, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

My last comment about sub section "other extermination camps" is that I know 7 places which need to be on that list, but I am sure that nobody has checked that !? Because of Balkan trees it is not possible to see forest. Now I will start massive calls for discussion. SlimVirgin is right with comment that we need to call users which are editing Wikiproject Jewish History, but in my thinking we must call users from Baltic countries (events in 1941) and Hungary (events in 1944) because this countries will be inolved on this template if we vote for sub section "other extermination camps". Maybe I am mistaking but we are discussing creation of this sub section because it is not possible to add Jasenovac on visitors door and now we are trying to enter on service doors.--Rjecina (talk) 15:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Non involved users

Our agreement is that Holocaust scholars are speaking about "only" 6 Holocaust Extermination camps (stupid definition but ....). Our disagreement is about creation of sub section other extermination camps. With knowledge that there has been many others extermination camps and sites (I know 7 of them) question is: Will we create subsection in The Holocaust template for this camps ? Can you please hear your comments about this question in section Non involved users ? This invitation I will be added on many places and to many users --Rjecina (talk) 15:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

RfC

Should the Jasenovac concentration camp in Croatia, which operated from 1941-1945, be included in a list of Holocaust extermination camps on Template:The Holocaust? There is agreement that it was an extermination camp, but disagreement as to whether it counts as a death camp that was involved in, or associated with, the Holocaust.

Also, if it is included, should it be added to the section "Jews" or to "other victims," or should there be a new section to include camps such as Jasenovac?

There are other camps at issue too, but how we handle Jasenovac will largely determine how we handle the others. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 16:30, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Comments

I am interested to hear if decision of this RFC will be used for all other camps or only to defeat Jasenovac RFC from 2007 which has made "wrong" decision ?--Rjecina (talk) 16:36, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Let me see we are having all this sources:

Middle Tennessee University [66]

Florida Center for Instructional Tehnology [67]

USHMM Extermination camps are called killing centers

This Holocaust Teacher Resource Center Holocaust chronology with all camps

Site Holocaustsurvivors.org [68]

Site Jewishgen.org [69]

Which are speaking about Holocaust extermination camps, but they are never speaking about Jasenovac. Then we are having Menachem Shelach and his book Encyclopedia of the Holocaust which is speaking about Jasenovac but he will latter say in interview published by Israeli weekly Hotam (December 30, 1994), that he deathly hates the Croats (in Hebrew: sin 'at mavet)!! ...

Then we are having Serbian nationalism which is using WWII (Jasenovac) like reason for Serbian war crimes during Yugoslav Wars:

• Boose, Lynda E. "Crossing the River Drina: Bosnian Rape Camps, Turkish Impalement, and Serb Cultural Memory." Signs. Vol. 28, No. 1, Gender and Cultural Memory. (Autumn, 2002), pp. 71-96.

• • "But in ways disjunct enough to suggest once again a dangerous displacement at work, the epithet Ustashe was used as often against Bosnian Muslims as against Croats, and the illogical reference to Jasenovac, the most notorious of the Croatian Ustashe death camps, came up frequently as a justifying rationale for concentration camps holding Muslims and for the Serb massacre of Muslims at Srebrenica." (77-78)

• Hayden, Robert M. "Constitutional Nationalism in the Formerly Yugoslav Republics." Slavic Review. Vol. 51, No. 4. (Winter, 1992), pp. 654-673.
  • "Croatia also presents a loaded political context fraught with nationalist strife since about 13 percent of the population are Serbs who remember well the genocidal campaign against them by the "Independent State of Croatia" set up by the Germans but run by Croat fascists in 1941-1945." (657)--Rjecina (talk) 18:27, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Rjecina, I have to ask you to modify your behavior. This is not a Croatia love or hatefest. It is an issue that the scholarly sources disagree over, and their disagreement is reflected on this page. Creative suggestions are therefore welcomed, not entrenched black and white views, not sarcasm, and particularly not defamation of living scholars. I understand your frustration, but this needs to be approached calmly and in a scholarly manner. Many thanks, SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 18:46, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry but you are wrong. All my comments in this section are confirmed by sources. Only thing added by me is "respected". Nothing more nothing less and because of that I will restore "my" comments which are only part of attack on him (now I have added full text). Can you please show me evidence that Menachem Shelach is living scholar ?

On other side I have given sources and show that Menachem Shelach is not reliable source about Holocaust in Croatia. It is not possible to have discussion if 1 part is showing sources and second is speaking about unnamed scholars ?

Do not worry tomorow I am out of this discussion because of real life problems. --Rjecina (talk) 19:10, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

If you want to show in a respectful and professional manner that reliable sources regard a source as unreliable, please do, with links or citations. If you want to insult people, your comments will be removed. Please observe that distinction so that the discussion here is as fruitful as possible. There is simply no point in this repetitive back and forth. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 19:38, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Citation from Israeli weekly Hotam (with date) is enough to declare Menachem Shelach not reliable source for things about Croatia or not ?

My point is that on this talk page we are having around 10 sources which are saying that Jasenovac is not connected with Holocaust "program" and only Menachem Shelach who in his own words hate Croats which is saying different story. For me results in sources 10:0. --Rjecina (talk) 20:55, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

If you are now saying that these camps are in no way associated with the Holocaust, I believe you need to contact every historical source and agency you can find and have them subtract the Jews killed by the NDH from the estimates of Jews killed during the Holocaust. Those that died at Jasenovac and other camps outside of the six are included in the tallies, which would seem to make these camps related to the Holocaust. Do you think the Jews who died there should not be considered Holocaust victims? AniMate 21:31, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I will use words of another user:"There's no obvious connection between the Nazi program and the Ustaše program, beyond the connections between the two Fascist governments"

I do not understand your point. Do you want to say that only Jews for NDH and Jasenovac are included in the tallies or from all other camps.

Because we are only editors until now I have asked SlimVirgin to change this RFC from Jasenovac to Maly Trostenets extermination camp. With that we will evade Balkan nationalism and red-black battles, but on other side if RFC will be for creation of sub section other camps nobody will question adding of Jasenovac (if there is agreement we can delete all RFC comments which are only copy of earlier discussions). Your thinking ?--Rjecina (talk) 22:35, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I thought I was being pretty clear. The Jews who died in Jasenovac and Maly Trostenets are included in the 6 million Jewish victims of the Holocaust. If you are arguing that these two camps aren't related to the Holocaust, then the Jewish victims from the camps cannot be called victims of the Holocaust. Yet they are. It seems pretty simple. Do you have sources saying that the Jews who died at Jasenovac and Maly Trostenets are not victims of the Holocaust? AniMate 22:43, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I am sure that they are added to victims of the Holocaust, but important question is who will say which camp will be in this list and which will not be ? Decision will be made by Wikipedia users or Holocaust scholars ? What will be needed number of Jews victims to enter this list ? Last question is if we will have on this list camps and sites of massacres in 1941 or only after Nazi decision about Final solution (1942) ?--Rjecina (talk) 22:56, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Because of the disagreements amongst scholars, I have suggested a separate section for these camps. Since you seem to be agreeing that they are related to the Holocaust, shouldn't they have a section in the template? AniMate 23:05, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I am tired of this but ....Can you please confirm with something statement that there is disagreements amongst scholars (I am asking this 2 time in only 4 hours) ? I do not see answer about my 22:56 questions so it is not possible to answer your question, but.... If we can established rules about which camp or site will be on this list and which will not be then we can add many sites (no problem), but without rules....--Rjecina (talk) 23:21, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

(un-indent) What would you like me to prove? Your argument is that there were six main extermination camps. Fine. We won't touch that list. My argument is that these, Jasenovac et al, were also extermination camps. You've said that you agree with that. Jewish Holocaust victims died there. You agree. So why shouldn't they have a section in the template. The six camps you are so adamant about will be the only "Holocaust extermination camps". Okay. These will go in another section. What are your objections? AniMate 23:30, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I am hearing about disagreements amongst scholars, but I am waiting to see evidence (source) about scholars disagreements ?

Question:If we will create sub section In which way we will make decision about which camp or site will be in this section ?

Adding Jasenovac to this list is against all Holocaust definitions, because this definitions are always speaking about Nazi Germany and Jews. It is possible to see around 15 definitions of Holocaust in that article. My personal thinking is not important. It is possible to say that I am Empire historian. If we look documents Western Roman Empire has fallen in 480, but historians are speaking that it is fallen in 476. Similar is with Eastern 1453 and 1460/61. I am sure that historians are speaking false, but we can use only historian informations on wiki--Rjecina (talk) 00:33, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

• The first comes first - as usual Rjecina falsely references her claims; for example this link USHMM Extermination camps are called killing centers is all about the concentration/extermination camps in Poland - not about all Holocaust related extermination camps. The very next thing is - The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust. This book is a joint project of a number of Jewish/Israeli scholars led by Israel Gutman. Menachem Shelach was well-respected Haifa University professor and historian. His entries in the Encyclopeda ... passed strict accuracy scholar test conducted by his peer scholars/professors. The very book is a reference book in all university libraries and in any bigger public library across in the USA. Tell-tales and hear-says about this prominent scholar and the Holocaust era survivor cannot be a part of any serious discussion. Her further nonsense is 'Adding Jasenovac to this list is against all Holocaust definitions, because this definitions are always speaking about Nazi Germany and Jews' - there is no such definitions which Rjecina tries to sell - calling up on nothing.--Don Luca Brazzi (talk) 00:39, 21 October 2008 (UTC)