Talk:Zionism

Settler colonialism

Why is settler colonialism mentioned as a criticism of Zionism rather than how it is defined? It seems even Israeli historian Benny Morris has labelled it as such, and that its early proponents understood it as such. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:06, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed the description as a settler colonialist project should not be limited to the criticism section. DMH223344 (talk) 13:35, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Especially because before it went out of date, early Zionists explicitly referred to their ideology as colonial The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 14:47, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I also agree settler colonialism shouldn't be limited to the criticism section. But remember that "colonial" is not the same thing as "settler colonial"; Zionists referred to themselves as colonial, not settler colonial. Levivich (talk) 14:51, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

They did refer to themselves as settlers though. DMH223344 (talk) 16:02, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes and that's where confusion comes in. They described themselves as settlers and their venture as colonialism, but that is not an admission that Zionism is settler colonialism. Settler colonialism is a specific theory developed by Patrick Wolfe and others, and popularized in his 2006 paper, it's a term of art. People saying "we are settlers and colonists" 100 years before that aren't talking about Patrick Wolfe's theory; today, people who talk about settler colonialism are talking about Wolfe's theory. What I'm saying is we shouldn't confuse the words for the concept.

In fact, the reality is sort of the reverse: it's not that Zionists thought of themselves as settler-colonialists and Wolfe documented it; it's more the opposite, Wolfe used the term "settler colonialism" to describe Zionism and other similar colonialism (e.g. USA, Europe) and to distinguish it from "regular" or traditional colonialism (the non-settling kind of colonialism). Because settler colonialism is a 21st-century concept, 19th-century uses of the words "settler" and "colonialism," even used together, are not and cannot be a reference to the 21st-century concept.

BTW, to be clear, that doesn't mean Zionism isn't settler colonialism, it just means that Zionists couldn't have described themselves as settler colonialists because the concept had not been invented yet. Can't use 19th-century writing as an admission of a 21st-century concept. Levivich (talk) 17:16, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I see, was not aware of that. Would it then be more technical to simply refer to it as “colonial” in this case? The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 05:29, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I think so. There was discussion about this recently on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict page, and consensus to refer to Zionism as both "immigration" and "colonization", and Zionists as both "immigrants" and "settlers", because sources seem to use all that language interchangeably. Levivich (talk) 13:43, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Immigrants? What type of immigrant starts a revolution and creates a political regime supported by its own military forces? Dimadick (talk) 15:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Not quite like that and the British/allied powers helped things along. Selfstudier (talk) 15:18, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I think Jews who moved to Palestine/Israel were all "settlers" before 1948 and "immigrants" after 1948, but the sources don't agree with me. Levivich (talk) 15:51, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

However, under current terminology settlers who seek to colonize and harbour the intent to displace the local population are settler colonialists, not conventional colonialists, who preeminently seek to extract resources. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:28, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I actually disagree with the dependence on Wolfe's theory of settler colonialism especially considering there are other conceptions of settler colonialism. See Englert:

For instance, in explaining the difference between settler and franchise colonies, Wolfe wrote: ‘In contrast to the kind of colonial formation that Cabral or Fanon confronted, settler colonies were not primarily established to extract surplus value from indigenous labour. Rather, they are premised on displacing indigenes from (or replacing them on) the land.’24 A striking issue with this formulation is that Algeria – the colonial formation confronted by Fanon – was a French settler colony. Similarly, Veracini, in his Settler Colonialism: A Theoretical Overview, writes, ‘while the suppression of indigenous and exogenous alterities characterises both colonial and settler colonial formations, the former can be summarised as domination for the purpose of exploitation, the latter as domination for the purpose of transfer.’

Which also explains that there are fundamental aspects of settler vs franchise colonialism that can apply, even if we don't take eg Wolfe's theory exactly. DMH223344 (talk) 15:56, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

The diverging colonial approaches seem pretty well understood in the literature, regardless of the precise terminology used. It seems clear that the concept preceded the term, just as the concept of colonialism in general preceded 20th-century colonial studies. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:02, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Some sources referring to Zionism as settler-colonialism:

Masalha:

Zionist settler-colonialism is at the heart of the conflict in Palestine; settler-colonialism is a structure not an episode (Wolfe 2006). Zionist settler-colonialism is deeply rooted in European colonialism. Ignoring the existence and rights of indigenous peoples, British colonialists often saw large parts of the earth as terra nullius, ‘nobody’s land’. This (originally Roman legal) expression was used to describe territory which was not subject to the sovereignty of any European state – sovereignty over territory which is terra nullius may be acquired through occupation and/or settler-colonisation.

Cleveland:

Zionism was a settler colonial movement, very much like the movement of other Europeans who moved to the Americas, parts of Africa as well as Australia and New Zealand.

Pappe:

Zionism as a settler colonial movement was able to colonize Palestine almost in its entirety regardless of its demographic minority.

Shlaim:

The Zionist movement was a settler-colonial movement, which had its roots in late nineteenth-century Europe, as a response to the problem of European antisemitism.

DMH223344 (talk) 16:15, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

You are quoting sources famously known for their critical view of Zionism, they do not represent the mainstream view of the movement. HaOfa (talk) 17:19, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

You can add Al-Haq and 90 Palestinian and international organisations that "sent a joint submission to the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory examining Zionist settler colonialism and apartheid as the root causes of Israel’s ongoing violations of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people."

Not entirely sure what you mean by "mainstream" (or when) but the settler colonial paradigm is clearly a significant view that cannot be blithely dismissed. Selfstudier (talk) 17:28, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@Selfstudier, you seem like an experienced editor, and at this point I suppose it should be clear that advocacy organizations are not reliable sources. I also agree with the above: Ilan Pappe, Nur Masalha, and Avi Shlaim are known for their critical analysis, often presenting fringe views, of Zionism and Israel. Pappe himself was a central figure in Hadash, a far-left party in Israel, and multiple reliable sources label him a controversial figure. I see no reason to change the current lead, which accurately portrays the settler-colonialist view as a critical view. I'm really noticing more and more of these fringe views taking center stage in these articles, and honestly, it's starting to be really concerning. ABHammad (talk) 07:14, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

"Critical analysis" is a set term that doesn't mean what I think you think it does; "critical analysis" means that their efforts are thorough and in-depth, and it's a compliment. Critical analysis is exactly what we would want here. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:38, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

You understood what I meant. ABHammad (talk) 07:58, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but the reason why "critical analysis" contains the word "critical" is because the obvious truth that only true "critics" tend to provide the most thorough, in-depth and no-holds barred analysis. In the analysis and assessment of an ideology, ideological insiders are hardly going to provide the most fullsome or critical analysis. Who would you have do the analysis here? What's the mainstream, and how do you define it? Iskandar323 (talk) 08:31, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Exactly, the "critical" in "critical analysis" is a reference to critical thinking, not criticism. Levivich (talk) 15:27, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

You are at liberty to add contradictory sourcing, dismissing sourcing that you don't like as fringe is insufficient. If it is fringe, then finding a reliable source saying that should be possible. Selfstudier (talk) 09:09, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

This is Levivich comment from Nakba talk page:

"FYI see sources/quotes at Talk:Zionism as settler colonialism#Sources, including this one: Pappe 2020 (free): Still, despite a body of scholarship and research that frames the Zionist movement as a settler-colonial project—including the relatively new Settler Colonial Studies, a journal that, at this writing, has already devoted two special issues to Palestine—such a depiction is not accepted in mainstream academia (or the media generally). By and large, Israel/Palestine is still perceived as a conflict between two national movements that are equally responsible for violence—one of them a Western-style democracy that occasionally resorts to excessive power, and the other an Arab society endowed with a violent political culture. Of course there are other views (and maybe even a more recent one from Pappe, idk), but the complications are that: some RS say it's colonialism, some say it's settler-colonialism, some say neither, some say it was one of those things at some points in time and another one at other points in time, some say it's a mixture, etc."

So Pappe thinks it is but at least in 2020 admits it is not "mainstream". It is still a significant view though and is not anyway a criticism as such, it's a description.

Sabbagh-Khoury (2022) says "For now, the settler colonial paradigm is the work of a relatively small group of scholars, but their numbers are increasing rapidly, in part because it is becoming a project of collective study carried out in cooperation with international scholars, not the theoretical occupation of few isolated individuals." Clearly not fringe. Selfstudier (talk) 12:55, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Your quote explicitly says "small group of scholars" (with the rest all crystal ball) and then you say "clearly not fringe". What's the point in quoting a source if you're ignoring what it says? HaOfa (talk) 08:59, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

And what is the point in ignoring the rest of the sentence? Selfstudier (talk) 09:02, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Crystal ball claims, the current situation is what it is, a small group of scholars promoting this view. It totally doesn't matter if there is a cooperation with international scholars (as opposed to Palestinian ones), they could be part of a fringe group as well.

Pappe is a former politician associated with a far-left group who openly identifies as anti-Zionist, while he is entitled to his opinions, his stance doesn't necessarily indicate a mainstream following. There's zero base for this whole thing... HaOfa (talk) 09:08, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

You are aware that the article Zionism as settler colonialism exists? In other words, it is a notable subject. Selfstudier (talk) 09:04, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Notable, maybe, but again that doesn't change the fact it is a fringe view. There is an article on Modern flat Earth beliefs, does that make it a mainstream view? HaOfa (talk) 09:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

No, it means that it is a notable subject, that is, there is a sufficiency of reliable sources dealing with the topic. I'm still waiting for anyone with an actual source saying that ZaSC is fringe as opposed to merely expressing their own opinion that it is. Selfstudier (talk) 09:14, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

this is unwise, when a theory is fringe, you won't find many sources that would say it is fringe - they would just ignore it. In this way we will just perpetuate fringe views. HaOfa (talk) 09:20, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Poppycock. Selfstudier (talk) 09:21, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Wolfe's seminal 2006 paper on this has 7,500+ Google scholar cites. "Fringe"? Lol. Levivich (talk) 13:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Who said we are quoting what the movement says about itself? We are quoting what reliable sources are saying; reliable sources by scholars. Pappe and Shlaim are two of the most prominent historians in the field and can certainly not be dismissed as "fringe". Makeandtoss (talk) 14:26, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

source 219 is not a good source

it is said that Napoleon Bonaparte advocated for zionism. and the source is just an article at haaretz with a quote of theodor herzl, which slightly refers to Bonaparte. very weak proof, Napoleon should be deleted from that paragraph. Mouhibay (talk) 10:13, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, thanks for bringing this up. The source points out that Napoleon's plan to resettle Jews in Jerusalem was short-lived and he later changed his mind and preferred integrating Jews in France.

Noting here that I removed the entire paragraph as being unsourced and WP:UNDUE. No doubt there is plenty to be said about non-Jewish support for Zionism, and even support for Zionist ideas (return to Israel) that pre-dates the rise of Zionism in the late 19th century. But this content needs to be sourced to history books about Zionism, and ideally should include the context that much of this support was due to antisemitism (people wanted Jews to go to Israel because they wanted Jews to leave where they were). However, the paragraph was just a bunch of unsourced name-dropping. Levivich (talk) 13:12, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

thank you very much Mouhibay (talk) 08:24, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Colonial project?

@Selfstudier and האופה: Can the two of you please discuss here what you think this should say?

In particular, User:Selfstudier, can you please offer what you think should be said here as a direct quote from a source you cite? And maybe choose verbiage to acknowledge that the term "colonial project" may be interpreted differently by a general audience today than how it was interpreted by Zionists in late 19th century Europe?

If the original was in a language other than English, we should include the quote in the original language. Languages evolve, and a translation that may have been appropriate in the late 19th century may not be appropriate today. If you could use help with translation, we might be able to arrange that.

I think User:האופה has a point that the term "colonial project" may be inflammatory and therefore constitute POV editing in today's political environment. With luck, we might find a way to include that term as a direct quote from some Zionist from late 19th century Europe in a way that User:האופה and others will find acceptable.

DavidMCEddy (talk) 07:29, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Early Zionists sometimes referred to their project as "colonial" in the sense of establishing agricultural settlements (in Hebrew moshavot) and reviving Jewish life in the ancestral homeland. This quote appears to be used anachronistically in this context, to imply as if the Zionists were adherents of the contemporary sense of colonialism, the control of resources and people by countries, notably imperial powers, in foreign lands. This usage is more political than encyclopedic and totally unnecessary here. HaOfa (talk) 08:34, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Agricultural land and water sources are resources, so agricultural settlements (or colonies) control resources. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

@Iskandar323: The text was added by yourself on 5 June, care to comment? The lead is a summary of the body and I assume you are relying on the material in para 4 of the lead. "Similarly, anti-Zionism has many aspects, which include criticism of Zionism as a colonialist,[26] racist,[27] or exceptionalist ideology or as a settler colonialist movement.[28][29][30][31][32] Proponents of Zionism do not necessarily reject the characterization of Zionism as settler-colonial or exceptionalist.[33][34][35]" Selfstudier (talk) 09:42, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Although it is true that Zionists called their settlements "colonies" (moshavot), it is more relevant here that they called their whole enterprise colonization. They used that word in English, and they used it in German. The minutes of the Zionist Congresses used that word hundreds of times, not for individual settlements but for the overall enterprise designed for mass settlement. Zionism only stopped calling itself colonial when the concept of colonialism developed a bad odor in world opinion. It is simply not true that the meaning of the words has changed in the interim (suppose a century from now the Mormons decide to settle all of Mars—we will call it colonization just the same). Of course one can identify differences between colonization by a nation state and colonization by some other group of people, but those differences were recognised back then in just the same way as they are recognised today. That difference is one of the motives behind modern analyses that distinguish "settler colonisalism" from other types. Zero^talk 11:37, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, whatever Zionism is believed to be today, it emerged as an expressly colonial endeavour. Hence, the World Zionist Congress established the Jewish Colonial Trust; the Jewish Colonisation Association was established in the UK; and the like. This shouldn't be in the lead as a criticism, but as a basic description of the movement's early formulation. After 1948, the nature and characterisation of Zionism naturally morphed. Much more recently, the conceptual framework of "settler colonialism" has been applied, but that is a distinct label from the basic colonial characterisation, which early Zionism was open and unabashed about. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:00, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I support inclusion of the word colonization or colonial in the lead; As others have said, Zionism began as an openly colonial project, aligned geopolitically and in many ways ideologically with European colonialism. We should not leave that out of the article because of a modern day aversion to the attitudes of the past. Unbandito (talk) 22:08, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that "colonialism" has multiple meanings. There's the way it is most commonly used today - with all the negative value judgment of the colonial enterprise as in the Colonialism article- "maintaining of control and exploitation of people and of resources by a foreign group of people. Colonizers monopolize political power and hold conquered societies and their people to be inferior to their conquerors". And there's colonialism in the sense of moving to a new place and establishing a settlement there- a colony - as in Colonization of Mars- migration and establishing long term presence, without any negative associations. Zionists thought of themselves in the latter sense, while the proposed edit will likely be understood in the former.Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 16:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Zionists thought of themselves in the latter sense...

this is just not true. See the writing of the leaders of the movement, and the scholarly discussion on these writings. DMH223344 (talk) 18:39, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I am quite family with thew writings of the Zionist leaders, and none of them thought their project was about conquering, controlling and exploiting inferior people. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 19:01, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Strawman. Not the issue at hand, which is, was it a "colonial project", yes it was. Selfstudier (talk) 19:06, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Not in the sense described in our article on "Colonialism" Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 19:08, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

There is no such link in the material that you reverted in this diff. Selfstudier (talk) 19:11, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

The confusion as a result of multiple meanings I described above is obvious, wether or not a link exists. The text I restored has been in the article for years (with minor variations). I don't think there is agreement here to change it to the version you like, Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 19:19, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

What are the multiple meanings of "colonial project"? Selfstudier (talk) 20:24, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

read above Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 20:30, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I did, answer the question, please. Selfstudier (talk) 20:32, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

read it again, I am not going to repeat myself. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 20:34, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

You just did. Selfstudier (talk) 21:43, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

You've of course omitted the most relevant part of that paragraph which mentions settler colonialism specifically. "While frequently advanced as an imperialist regime, colonialism can also take the form of settler colonialism, whereby colonial settlers invade and occupy territory to permanently replace an existing society with that of the colonizers, possibly towards a genocide of native populations"

Is your point that the early zionists didnt' think they were doing anything negative? DMH223344 (talk) 21:18, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

The early Zionists did not "invade" anything - they emigrated to a land with the authorization of its sovereigns, and the only territory they "occupied" was territory they bought or leased. I don't see anything negative in that, Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 21:37, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

You're citing the fact that Zionists got permission from colonial authorities to settle in Palestine as evidence that it wasn't colonialism?? Unbandito (talk) 22:27, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the Ottoman Empire colonized Palestine ("The Ottomans neither colonized the territories they conquered nor carried Ottoman Islamic law to all the new settlements" [1]), but let's assume ad argumentum that they did - getting permission from a colonial power to move to Palestine is not the same as colonizing it yourself - or do you think the Ciracassians also colonized Palestine? How about the Templars? Arabs who moved there during the Ottoman rule? Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 22:54, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Though I support both renderings in this article, I would point out that my edits changed the phrasing in the lead from a "colonial project" to "colonization" Unbandito (talk) 00:15, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

For the editors who think that Wikipedia should not describe Zionism as "colonialism," can you name one book about Zionism that does not describe it as colonialism? Levivich (talk) 21:32, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

You could start with המהפכה הציונית (The Zionist Revolution) by David Vital. There are many more. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 21:56, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Is that the same as The Origins of Zionism, written in 1975? Levivich (talk) 22:00, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't think so, it was published in 1978, and "The Origins" seems to be part 1 of a trilogy, which this isn't. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 22:03, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

OK that's very old, and WP:AGEMATTERS. And if Google Books is correct, it was published by the WZO. [2] If there are many more as you say, it should be easy to link to a book written in the 21st century, in English, by an independent publisher. Levivich (talk) 22:08, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi. Check out this review by Dr. Benny Morris (starting from "Colonialism is commonly defined as"). With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 11:45, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Benny Morris, in a book review, doesn't agree with Khalidi's The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine: A History of Settler Colonialism and Resistance, 1917–2017.

And? Selfstudier (talk) 12:24, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, now we are getting somewhere. No doubt Benny Morris is real 21st scholarship. But, a few "buts":

1. I know it's a bit pedantic, but that's not a book about Zionism, and neither is Khalidi's book a book about Zionism. That's Morris reviewing Khalidi's book about the conflict. A book review shouldn't be given as much WP:WEIGHT as a book, and a book about the conflict -- for this article -- shouldn't be given as much weight as a book specifically about Zionism (or the history of Zionism).
2. I'm not sure that either Khalidi or Morris have ever written a book about Zionism? They are experts in the conflict, but I wouldn't call either of these "WP:BESTSOURCES" for this article.
3. Nevertheless, even if we "count" this, we have one scholar (Khalidi) saying Zionism was colonialism, and one scholar (Morris) saying it wasn't. Call it a tie. So that begs the question: which, if either, is the mainstream view?

I assume I don't have to prove that there are, say, three books entirely about Zionism that call it "colonialism," although I can post three if anyone wants. (If we open it up to looking at books about the conflict in general, and not just Zionism specifically, then there will be even more books like Khalidi's.) That leaves the question: are there more books/scholars (and I mean 21st century real scholars like Morris and Khalidi) that share Morris's view that it's not Zionism? I'm going to guess without looking that we'd find something by Efraim Karsh agreeing with Morris's view that Zionism was not colonialism. And some would argue about whether Karsh "counts" but let's skip ahead and say Morris and Karsh are two. I could post like six examples that say "colonialism." So are there like six or more examples like Morris or Karsh that say "not colonialism"? What I'm getting at is that I think "colonialism" is the mainstream view and Morris is in the minority. "Prove me wrong"? Levivich (talk) 12:25, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Why would Karsh, an academic historian and professor (emeritus) of Middle East and Mediterranean Studies at King's College not count? Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 12:35, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Extreme bias, still, let's count him, still going to be a minority. Selfstudier (talk) 12:36, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

And Khalidi or Morris are not biased? C'mon, let's be serious. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 12:41, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Both biased, of course, all sources are biased. Not extreme though. Selfstudier (talk) 12:42, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I find Khalid to be every bit as extreme as Karsh, just from the other side. That's not a serious argument for exclusion. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 12:45, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I totally agree, Khalid is extreme too, I don't see why we give preference to his work over that of Karsh. HaOfa (talk) 15:29, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Who is Khalid? DMH223344 (talk) 15:30, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

It's an obvious typo - Khalidi Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 18:35, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Bring sources, that's where we are at. Like this one, for example https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/cambridge-history-of-socialism/socialism-zionism-and-settler-colonialism-in-israelpalestine/845325220666E2F7BD373A1271E24060

"It was also a settler-colonial project. Until the Second World War, Zionists commonly referred to their ‘colonization’ of Palestine with no pejorative implications. Selfstudier (talk) 15:31, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Aside from bias, I don't think Karsh has ever written a book about Zionism (as opposed to a book about the conflict). But I think we'd all agree to "count" Karsh so as not to be distracted by arguing about him, and still, Morris and Karsh would make a minority of two, so the question remains: who else is there among 21st-century scholars who say Zionism was not colonialism? (And note: the number of books about Zionism, meaning BESTSOURCES, that say it's not colonialism is currently 0.) Levivich (talk) 12:45, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

You are moving the goalposts (slightly, but moving them nonetheless). You first asked for " one book about Zionism that does not describe it as colonialism" and I gave you one, , which you dismissed on a pretext ("not 21st century"). Now you are asking for something else - multiple books that explicitly says it is "not colonialism" - that's not the way academic books on a topic are usually written, as opposed to polemics seeking to prove or disprove a point. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 12:54, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

What was that about moving goalposts? There is no unresolved question here and no real argument against colonization (or colonial project). Selfstudier (talk) 12:57, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I thought I explained it: Levivich first wrote 'can you name one book about Zionism that does not describe it as colonialism'. When that was done, he switched to "who else is there among 21st-century scholars who say Zionism was not colonialism" - Moving_the_goalposts#Logical_fallacy Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 13:02, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I'll take a book about Zionism -- 21st century independently written/published -- that either doesn't describe it as colonialism or says explicitly it's not colonialism, but to your point, Morris's book review disproves it: there you see him explicitly say not colonialism, so that is in fact how academic works are written. There are so many books/works about Zionism that say it's colonialism that if the mainstream view was that it wasn't colonialism, we'd have no problem coming up with many modern works that say so explicitly. As an example of this, I can show you modern scholarship that explicitly says the mainstream view is not that it's settler-colonialism, but I'm not aware of any that say it's not colonialism at all. Levivich (talk) 12:59, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I said books are usually not written this way, not that you can't find an example or two that do. Morris is well known for his polemical style, and that is a book review - not a book. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 13:05, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I would still count crossing the first goalpost ("doesn't say colonialism") as a score :-) But we're still at zero examples...

You know, 1978 was before the Israeli archives were opened, before the New Historians, anything that old is obsolete when it comes to scholarship on this subject, so that doesn't count. That's why WP:AGEMATTERS. Plus it appears to be out of print, published by the WZO, and in a language I do not know how to read so I can't verify it. Levivich (talk) 13:17, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Modern Zionism dates to the late 19th century, you think there's some mysteries document hidden in Israel's archives that suddenly exposes the true nature of Zionism as a colonial project that wasn't known before? You will note that the most notable of the New Historians - Morris - is actually one that holds the position that it is not colonialism.

If you keep inventing pretexts (has to be a book, has to be explicitly about Zionism, has to be 21st century, has to be in English, has to be in print, can't be published by WZO[which incidentally is not quite accurate - it was published by Am Oved, an independent publisher, in partnership with WZO]) - then naturally you are going to arrive at the result you want.

But here you go- Sachar's "A History of Israel: From the Rise of Zionism to Our Time ", 3rd edition revised and expanded, published in 2007 Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 13:37, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

you think there's some mysteries document hidden in Israel's archives that suddenly exposes the true nature of Zionism as a colonial project that wasn't known before? Yes, actually, that's exactly what the New Historians found in the archives, isn't it, and why people now call the Nakba an ethnic cleansing when they didn't before? Also there are other primary source documents that were declassified or published decades later, such as the diaries of leaders like Hertzl and Ben-Gurion, which caused historians to re-evaluate history. That's how it works, of course: documents get declassified, historians revise history. I'm not familiar with Sachar, thanks for that, I'll take a look. Levivich (talk) 13:55, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

More goalpost moving. We were not discussing the Nakba, a 1947-1948 event, but the origins of Zionism.

I can certainly see that released archival documents would shed new light on plans and goals of the 1947-1949 war, and whether or not the depopulation of Arab towns was pre-planned - but what has that got to do with the origins of Zionism 70 years earlier? Teh protocols of the 1st Zionist Congress from 1897 were open to all historians in 1975 Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 14:25, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

That one wasn't goalpost moving, it's using the Nakba as an example of something, other than Zionism, that was re-evaluated when archives were unsealed, and as an example of the broader point, which is that as time goes on, historians learn new things about history, which is why we need to look at recent scholarship and not 50-year-old scholarship. This is true in every historical field (hence, Wikipedia has the WP:AGEMATTERS policy), but it's especially true when it comes to the history of Israel/Zionism, because there has been so much re-evaluation in the subject area over the last 50 years.

As a concrete example of this, here is Ilan Pappe writing in 1998 about "Fifty Years Through the Eyes of “New Historians” in Israel," and the first section of that paper is called "Early Zionism Revisited", where he says In the new historiography, Zionism began as a national awakening in Europe but turned into a colonialist movement when it chose Palestine as its target territory. And I'd say that even that paper is outdated because it's 25 years old. Whatever was revisited by 1998 has been revisited again by 2024: Pappe has written many books and papers since, and so have Morris and Karsh and Khalidi and many other scholars. So we look at current scholarship, frankly the more recent, the better. As a kind of rule of thumb, I go with "21st century," it's an easy place to draw a line. Levivich (talk) 14:47, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't dispute that archival material can shed new light - I am disputing that there's anything in the Israeli archives (or any other archives for that matter) that could shed light on the origins of Zionism, when all the protocols of that movement were previously available. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 16:12, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I looked and Howard Sachar's A History of Israel: From the Rise of Zionism to Our Time (Knopff 2007, 3rd ed.) describes Zionism as colonization, many many times in the book. Let me know if you want quotes. Levivich (talk) 15:02, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

yes, please. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 16:06, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I have the ebook so references are to "chapter, section" rather than page number. Bold and blue links are mine.

Sachar quotes

Chapter 1 Ch. 1, Forerunners of Zionism: "They were: that the salvation of the Jews, as foretold by the Prophets, could take place through natural means, that is, by self-help, and did not require the advent of the Messiah; that the colonization of Palestine should be launched without delay; and that the revival of sacrifices in the Holy Land was permissible ... Moving so far beyond traditional Orthodoxy that some colleagues branded his views heretical, Kalischer urged: the formation of a society of rich Jews to undertake the colonization of Zion; settlement by Jews of all backgrounds on the soil of the Holy Land; the training of young Jews in self-defense; and the establishment of an agricultural school in the Land of Israel where Jews might learn farming and other practical subjects ... Kalischer’s notion of “practical messianism” in fact was appealing enough to win over a small but influential group of contemporaries who joined him in founding a “Society for the Colonization of the Land of Israel.” ... In later essays, Smolenskin made plain that all methods were legitimate in sustaining the national ideal, not excluding the physical colonization of the Land of Israel ..." Ch. 1, European Nationalism and Russian Upheaval: "Rome and Jerusalem was unique in its prefigurations of later and better-known Zionist doctrines ... Predating Herzl, Hess envisaged the self-interested collaboration of other governments in reviving a Jewish protégé nation in the Middle East, and the active help of the “Jewish princes”—Rothschild, Montefiore, and other millionaires—who would fund and organize Jewish colonization in Palestine." Ch. 1, Chovevei Zion: "Indeed, before his death in 1891, he managed to provide the Chovevei Zion with a coherent ideology and an organizational framework, to strengthen the foundations of Palestine colonization, and to achieve a quasi-legalization for the movement in Russia." Chapter 2 Ch. 2, The First Aliyah: "It was rather a group of youthful idealists that decided finally to take the initiative in establishing a creative foothold in Palestine. In January 1882, thirty young men and women gathered in the Kharkov lodgings of a university student, Israel Belkind, to discuss the “plight of the nation.” Most of them had been reared in middle-class families. All either were attending university or, in some instances, had received professional degrees. They were all imbued, too, with a mixture of ardent Jewish nationalism and fiery Russian populism. In their minds, as in those of most of the Russian students of their generation, social reform and national fulfillment were interlinked. Thus, after extended discussion, the group decided that the revival of Jewish life in the Holy Land on a “productive” basis must begin immediately, without awaiting full-scale support from the wider Jewish community. Then and there they formed an emigration society, later to be known as “Bilu”—a Hebrew biblical acrostic of “House of Jacob, let us go.” In ensuing meetings, nineteen of the youths made the commitment to abandon their studies or professions in favor of immediate departure to the Land of Israel; the others would recruit new members to establish a model agricultural colony in Palestine. “We have no capital,” noted Chaim Chissin, a founding member, in his diary, “but we are certain that once we are [in Palestine] we shall be established. On every side we find an enthusiastic display of sympathy for the idea of the colonization of the Land of Israel and we have already received promises of aid from societies and influential persons.” ... Where were the funds that at least would enable them to develop a model colony of their own—their very raison d’être for having traveled to Palestine? ... Afterward he attended a Chovevei Zion conference in Jassy, where he instantly sensed the potential of the emergent Zionist movement. The indefatigable Englishman thereupon departed for Constantinople in the hope of persuading the Ottoman government to grant the Jews a charter for colonizing the Holy Land." Ch. 2, "The Well-Known Benefactor": "With the passage of time, the Zionist colonies became Rothschild’s major philanthropic interest." Ch. 2, The Bridgehead Widens: "More significantly, he appeared to disengage himself from personal control of the settlements by turning over their management to a separate and ostensibly independent body, the Palestine Colonization Association—the PICA." Chapter 3 Ch. 3, From Theorist to Activist: The Zionist Congress: "In the Zionist Organization, Herzl had created his “Society of Jews.” Now he was determined to organize the “Jewish Company,” a bank to be entitled the Jewish Colonial Trust ... The older methods of piecemeal colonization in Palestine, deprived of international legal recognition, no longer were adequate ... This was simultaneously to improve the coalition of the Yishuv—Palestine Jewry—by colonization and industrialization, and to endorse once again all possible diplomatic efforts to acquire a charter of Jewish settlement in the Holy Land." Ch. 3, The Kaiser and the Sultan: "He still did not have the bank, the financial instrument he had regarded as crucial to both negotiations and colonization ... Afterward, presumably, the issue of colonization would be taken up again. Herzl found the idea appealing. With some effort, he finally secured the Zionist Actions Committee’s reluctant approval to deposit letters of credit totaling 3 million francs in Ottoman banks; the sum would be guaranteed by the Jewish Colonial Trust." Ch. 3, The British Connection: "On February 5, 1902, he summoned the Zionist leader back to Constantinople to “furnish information” on current progress. Upon meeting with Ottoman officials in their capital nine days later, Herzl could only fight for time. In a desperate maneuver, he suggested that before any funding of the Public Debt was possible, the sultan should take the initiative in offering the Jews the general concession of a land colonizing company." Ch. 3, Achad HaAm, Easternesr, and the Democratic Faction: "In “Lo Zeh HaDerech,” we have noted (this page), he urged his fellow Chovevei Zion to reconsider their emphasis upon actual physical settlement in Palestine. Yet his purpose was not merely to postpone colonization until juridical and diplomatic guarantees were secured from the Turks, but to ensure that the national spirit of the Jewish people was fully ignited ... Moreover, while Achad HaAm, no less than Herzl, deplored “infiltrationism” as a technique for reviving the Jewish nation, the former’s disciples—Weizmann, Motzkin, and the largest numbers of east European Jews—still preferred gradual and methodical colonization in the revered Holy Land to a paralysis of suspended animation, waiting breathlessly for Herzl’s diplomatic achievement of a charter. Well prior to the Sixth Zionist Congress in August 1903, it became evident that the al-Arish project had reached a dead end." Chapter 4 Ch. 4, Zionism After Herzl: "As a result, the Seventh Zionist Congress, meeting in Basle from July 27 to August 2, 1905, was obliged to give urgent attention to its future stance. In overwhelming numbers, the delegates rejected any colonizing activities outside Palestine, and voted unequivocally in favor of emigration and settlement there, with active encouragement of Jewish agriculture and industry ... Thus it was that Gegenwartsarbeit—“work in the present,” practical Zionism—embracing both colonization in Palestine and cultural activity in the Diaspora, became a meaningful Jewish force." Ch. 4, The Second Aliyah: "At the turn of the century, we recall, both the “old” Yishuv and the “new” Yishuv still depended mainly on outside help—Chalukkah charity for the old, Rothschild or Zionist philanthropy for the new. Although more than 50,000 Jews were living in the Holy Land by then, only 5,000 were to be found in the twenty rural colonies." Ch. 4, The Collective Settlement: "The onset of the Second Aliyah coincided with a growing momentum of Jewish agricultural settlement in Palestine. It was helped in considerable measure by Baron Rothschild’s PICA. New colonies included Sejera, Mescha, Menachemia, and Yavne'el founded in 1901–02, and Beit Gan in 1904 ... With land and loans supplied by PICA, the new colonies eventually showed modest profits." Ch. 4, The Conquest of Hebrew: "The Alliance schools, too, were conducting the major portion of their instruction in the Hebrew language, as were the schools in the Zionist agricultural colonies. Additionally, sixty Zionist schools in the towns and outlying farm colonies, comprising 2,600 pupils, were using Hebrew as their sole medium of instruction. This program was decisively augmented by the iron willpower of the Zionist settlers themselves, and notably the immigrants of the Second Aliyah." Chapter 5 Ch. 5, A Crucial Intermediary: "It was only during his travels in Palestine that Sykes had come to admire the Zionist colonies and to sense their potential rejuvenating influence among the Jewish people." Ch. 5, A Declaration Is Issued: "To sustain the momentum, meanwhile, Talaat invited leading German and Austrian Jews to Constantinople to discuss Jewish land colonization and autonomy in Palestine." Chapter 6 Ch. 6, High and Early Hopes in the Holy Land: "As far back as December 1917 the foreign secretary had approved the departure of a Zionist Commission for Palestine to organize relief work and supervise repair of damage to the Jewish colonies." Ch. 6, The "Constitution" of the Mandate: "This major concession to the Arabs evidently registered only slowly on the Zionists. In their earlier correspondence with the British they had expressed at most a perfunctory interest in the Transjordanian area; their colonies were all to the west." Chapter 7 Ch. 7, The Revival of the Zionist Organization: "Each of its members became responsible for a specific facet of the Zionist reconstructionist effort in the Holy Land. Thus, departments were organized for political affairs, immigration, labor, colonization, education, and health ... The colonization department was responsible for the development of new Jewish agricultural villages." Ch. 7, The Growth of Urban Settlement, the Struggle for Labor Unity: "The Labor Zionist leadership watched this development closely. It was persuaded by then that in the cities, as on the soil, labor’s task was to conquer the Palestine Jewish economy and shape it altogether in its image. In fact, rudimentary workers’ organizations had appeared in the Jewish colonies as far back as the 1880s and 1890s, but the PICA directors had managed to stamp out most of them." Ch. 7, The Creation of the Jewish Agency: "A formula acceptable to both Zionists and non-Zionists was worked out as early as the Zionist Congress of 1925. It set as the goals of a Jewish Agency: continuous increase in the volume of Jewish immigration; redemption of the land as Jewish public property; agricultural colonization based on Jewish labor; revival of the Hebrew language and of Hebrew culture." Chapter 8 Ch. 8, Arabs and Jews Before the Mandate: "While Arab banditry was an endless harassment to the Zionist colonies, it signified no particular nationalist animus." Ch. 8, A Failure of Perception, a Renewal of Violence: "For the Labor Zionists, particularly, the economic benefits of Jewish settlement appeared to be the decisive response to Arab nationalism ... For Ben-Gurion, “only the narrow circles of the Arab ruling strata have egotistical reasons to fear Jewish immigration and the social and economic changes caused by it.” The Arab masses, at least, would understand that Jewish immigration and colonization brought prosperity." Ch. 8, The Revisionist Answer: "What Revisionism demanded, he said, was “the systematic and active participation” of the mandatory in the establishment of the Jewish commonwealth. Mass colonization was not a private enterprise, nor a project for voluntary organization; it was state business requiring the active assistance of the state power. Jabotinsky’s idea, in short, was to recruit Britain as a full-fledged partner in the building of the National Home—as opposed to Weizmann’s policy, which regarded colonization in Palestine as essentially the task of the Jewish people."

These are not the only mentions, but should be enough to demonstrate that Sachar describes Zionists as colonizers, and of course Zionists described themselves the same way. Levivich (talk) 20:00, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for this. Go back and read what I wrote above about the multiple meanings of colonization. When someone writes, e.g " establish a model agricultural colony in Palestine" it is the exact parallel of a colony on Mars. This is also exactly what User:האופה wrote at the top of this thread - 'Early Zionists sometimes referred to their project as "colonial" in the sense of establishing agricultural settlements (in Hebrew moshavot) and reviving Jewish life in the ancestral homeland. This quote appears to be used anachronistically in this context, to imply as if the Zionists were adherents of the contemporary sense of colonialism" Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 20:10, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

So tell me which do you think is true:

1. You know something about the multiple meanings of colonization that Howard Sachar doesn't know, and Sachar made a mistake when he used the word "colonization" in his book, OR
2. Sachar knows about the multiple meanings of colonization, and decided to use that word anyway

I think it's #2.

And BTW, you should drop the comparison of colonizing Palestine with colonizing Mars, because there are no people who live on Mars. So even if the Zionists thought they were colonizing a barren, empty land, they were wrong. Either way, this article says "colonization" because the sources say "colonization," and it really doesn't matter if editors think that's not the right word to use, because it's the word the sources use. Levivich (talk) 20:32, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

The fact that Mars is barren is exactly the point - it demonstrate you can "colonize" a land, in the sense of building communities there, w/o subjugating a population you believe to be inferior and exploiting it - which is the common, modern connotation of colonization, which was missing from early Zionist use of the term. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 21:00, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Sure, you can "colonize" a land, in the sense of building communities there, w/o subjugating a population you believe to be inferior and exploiting it ... if there are no people there! Anyway, do you think Sachar doesn't know the modern connotation of "colonization" and made a mistake using the word, or that he knows the modern connotation and used it anyway? Levivich (talk) 21:07, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

No, you can also an "colonize" a land, in the sense of building communities there, w/o subjugating a population you believe to be inferior and exploiting it even if there are people there. Do you think The People's Temple colonized Guyana when they established their colony there?

I think Sachar didn't anticipate that 15 years later, wikipedia editors would try to use his choice of words in order to paint Zionists as subjugators. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 21:28, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

You're absolutely right, Wikipedia should not call Zionists "subjugators." Let's instead use the exact same word Sachar used: "colonization." Levivich (talk) 22:13, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Or, we could just say what the article has said for a long time - "Zionism is a nationalist movement that emerged in the 19th century to enable the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine", without any potentially POV-laden terminology. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 22:48, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

WP:NPOV says Wikipedia articles should say what mainstream scholarship says. So if mainstream scholarship says "colonization" (and it does), then it would be "POV-laden" to not say "colonization." Levivich (talk) 23:03, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Somehow this article existed for years without this characterization, even as a "featured article" without anyone claiming it violates NPOV. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 23:09, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

This was a featured article from 2003 until 2004, when it was delisted. The 2003 version that was promoted to FA said (bold mine):

The early Zionists were well aware that Palestine was already occupied by Arabs, who had constituted the majority of the population there for over a thousand years. The Zionist leaders generally shared the attitudes of other Europeans of the period in the matters of race and culture. In this view the Arabs were one of the world's many primitive races, who could only benefit from Jewish colonisation. This attitude led to the opposition of the Arabs being ignored, or even to their presence being denied, as in Israel Zangwill's famous slogan "A land without a people, for a people without a land". Generally though, such myths were propaganda invented by leaders who saw the Arabs as an obstacle to overcome, but not a serious one.

The 2004 version that was delisted from FA changed that line from "Jewish colonisation" to "Jewish immigration."

So the FA version of this article said "colonisation."

After all this discussion, we are still at zero modern books about Zionism that don't describe it as colonization. Levivich (talk) 04:58, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Sure. And similarly, the current version of the article mentions colonization and colonies, multiple times, in a paragraphs discussing the actions of early Zionists like Montefiori, and if you wanted to include something like the featured article version, about the thinking of early Zionists that the natives would benefit form Colonization, somewhere in the body, that would porbbaly be fine.

But as you obviously realize, that is not the same as describing Zionism as a colonial project in the first sentence of the lead of the article Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 11:52, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Is it feasible to ask the people who list and delist "Featured Articles" what needs to happen to get this again listed as FA -- and whether any use of a term somehow related to "colonial project" or "colonization" can impact that?

To me "colonization" sounds more neutral than "colonial project".

Also, am I correct that we are discussing here exactly where in the lede to introduce a term like "colonial", "colonialism", ...?

I just found 42 matches in this article for "coloni", starting with the last sentence of the lede: "Similarly, anti-Zionism has many aspects, which include criticism of Zionism as a colonialist,[26] racist,[27] or exceptionalist ideology or as a settler colonialist movement.[28][29][30][31][32]"

The Israel-Hamas war was ongoing when this discussion began, and it's still continuing. I think the lede is fine as it is now. What do you think about not changing the lede and focusing on making sure that other uses of terms like "colonialism" and "colonialist" later in the article are used in a way that appears neutral, citing credible sources? ???DavidMCEddy (talk) 11:32, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Material under discussion has once again been POV editwarred out of the lead so I'm right out of AGF atm. Selfstudier (talk) 11:44, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Did you similarly object when material under discussion was POV edit warred back into the artilce, by people who share your POV? Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 11:55, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is concluded in favor of the material, that's the why of it. This article, once an FA isn't even a GA now, quite right, too. Selfstudier (talk) 11:57, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

What are the obstacles to getting it back to GA? DavidMCEddy (talk) 12:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Stability in the article. Meanwhile it is written in a manner which encourages disputes over and frequent changes to content, GA and in particular FA, is not going to happen. Since this is primarily a kind of history article for the most part, stability with best sources should not actually be that difficult. Selfstudier (talk) 12:24, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

This discussion above is not in favor of the material, there's clearly a consensus against it, and @Levivich should revert his last revert. At least five people here are against the recent inclusion, but you are forcing it anyway. HaOfa (talk) 15:31, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

It's not a head count. Sources or move along. Levivich (talk) 15:32, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

This is not how consensus is achieved on Wikipedia. This is not a good faith conversation. HaOfa (talk) 15:48, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

It actually is how consensus is achieved on Wikipedia. No matter how many people shout no, the sources are what count here. nableezy - 15:57, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

No it never was a good faith conversation. Look, as I recently stated in the message elsewhere I pinged you to, I don't know where you guys got the idea that a handful of new or sleeper accounts pressing the undo button and saying, essentially, "nuh-uh" on talk pages, is going to be enough to influence the content of articles, but that is a very old trick that this entire topic area is engineered to address, more so than anywhere else on Wikipedia. Content disputes are resolved by reliable sources, not by the number of editors, so just give it up. Wikipedia follows sources; if you want to change that, you have to change the sources. It doesn't matter how many accounts you have. I thought we made that point this past fall. Levivich (talk) 15:59, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Round 2

Above in Round 1, we determined that nobody seems to know of any modern books about Zionism that do not describe it as colonization, although Benny Morris wrote a book review in which he said Zionism was not colonialism. The objection was raised, however, that even if this Wikipedia article should describe Zionism as colonization in the body, this description is not WP:DUE for the lead. So, let's look at how many modern books about Zionism mention colonization or colonialism in their titles. Here are some:

1. Halper, Jeff (2021). Decolonizing Israel, Liberating Palestine: Zionism, Settler Colonialism, and the Case for One Democratic State. Pluto Press. ISBN 978-0-7453-4339-6.

   Nutt, S. (2019). Self-determination, Sovereignty and History: Situating Zionism in the Settler-colonial Archive. University of Exeter.

2. Masalha, Nur (2014). The Zionist Bible: Biblical Precedent, Colonialism and the Erasure of Memory. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-317-54464-7.
3. Masalha, Nur (2007). The Bible and Zionism: Invented Traditions, Archaeology and Post-Colonialism in Palestine-Israel. Zed Books. ISBN 978-1-84277-761-9.
4. Shamir, Ronen (2000). The Colonies of Law: Colonialism, Zionism and Law in Early Mandate Palestine. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-63183-9.

And, more broadly, here are some books about Israel/Palestine that mention colonialism in their titles:

1. Zureik, Elia T. (2023). The Palestinians in Israel: A Study in Internal Colonialism. Taylor & Francis. ISBN 978-1-000-85711-5.
2. Greenstein, Ran (2022). Anti-Colonial Resistance in South Africa and Israel/Palestine: Identity, Nationalism, and Race. Taylor & Francis. ISBN 978-0-429-67075-6.
3. Rabinovich, Silvana (2022). Biblical Figures in Israel's Colonial Political Theology. Springer Nature. ISBN 978-3-031-03822-8.
4. Todorova, Teodora (2021). Decolonial Solidarity in Palestine-Israel: Settler Colonialism and Resistance from Within. Bloomsbury Publishing. ISBN 978-1-78699-642-8.
5. Gowans, Stephen (2019). Israel, a Beachhead in the Middle East: From European Colony to US Power Projection Platform. Baraka Books. ISBN 978-1-77186-183-0.
6. Shihade, Magid (2011). Not Just a Soccer Game: Colonialism and Conflict among Palestinians in Israel. Syracuse University Press. ISBN 978-0-8156-5111-6.

Seems WP:DUE to me. Levivich (talk) 19:54, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Jeff Halper is an anti-Zionist activist, a supporter of BDS and not a historian.

Nur Masalha, who for some reason you chose to mention twice, is a Palestinian anti-Zionist.

Ronen Shamir is a far-left anti-Zionist BDS supporter, and also not a historian.

Pluto Press, which published Halper's book, is self described as "radical", and was kicked out of its relationship with the University of Michigan because it does not peer review its publications. Zed Books, who published Masalha, is also described as "radical" by multiple sources. You are literally advocating for views of radical presses and activists who are opposed to Zionism to be in the lead of this former featured article - perhaps as far from WP:DUE as one can imagine.

Relying on these sources for the lead in Zionism is about as compelling as relying on Tucker Carlson's Ship of Fools: How a Selfish Ruling Class Is Bringing America to the Brink of Revolution in an article about the Ruling class, or Ann Coulter's Demonic: How the Liberal Mob Is Endangering America in Liberalism. I think you are actually making my point that this is a radical , non-mainstream view, or else you'd be able to come up with examples from non-partisan historians. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 20:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I listed Masalha twice because he wrote two modern books about Zionism that have colonialism in the title. (You realize this list was compiled by searching book titles for "Zionism" and "colonialism" and variations, right?) Because reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective (WP:BIASEDSOURCES), your whole argument about partisan historians is moot. BTW, have you considered that anti-Zionism is the mainstream view, in the same way that anti-colonialism and anti-terrorism are mainstream views? Anyway, I look forward to reviewing your (or anyone's) list of non-partisan modern books about Zionism. Levivich (talk) 20:59, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

If Masalha had written 5000 books with that word in its title published by a radical press, would that make the argument more compelling? It's still just one person, who is an ideologue opposed to Zionism.

Sources do not need to be neutral, but our presentation of view points does. And if this is the viewpoint anti-Zionists, it may belong in the article body, in a section describing the views of opponents or critics of Zionism, but no way it belongs in the defintion of Zionism as the 2nd or 3rd lead sentence.

By way of analogy, or comparison - Marx wrote quite a few books with "Capitalism" in the title, but we don't use his views on Capitalism in the lead paragraph of Capitalism - we mention his views in the body. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 21:30, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Still looking for any alternative views, tho, seems to be a shortage of those. Until we see them, then the sourced views are NPOV. Selfstudier (talk) 21:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

The alternative view is what was in the article for years, before the recent POV-push: "Zionism is a nationalist movement that emerged in the 19th century to enable the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine, a region roughly corresponding to the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition".

Should I compile a list of books with both Zionism and Jewish in the title? Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 21:45, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

WP:NPOV doesn't mean neutral between anti-Zionism and pro-Zionism, it means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic. "Proportionately" means in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources (WP:DUE). So if the mainstream view is that Zionism was colonialism or colonization, then that's what Wikipedia's going to say in WP:WIKIVOICE. And if the mainstream view is that Zionism's colonial character was/is a significant aspect of Zionism, then that's what Wikipedia's going to say in the lead.

And I'm not sure why you'd compile a list of books about Zionism with Jewish in the title, since this article already says "Jewish" in the lead.

To Self's point, though, as much fun as this back-and-forth is, your arguments are easily contradicted by quoting from Wikipedia policy pages, so unless your next reply is a list of modern books about Zionism, you're wasting your time.

BTW, of course our article about Capitalism mentions Marx's views in the lead: it links to Capitalist mode of production (Marxist theory). (It also mentions the views of Engels, linking to state capitalism.) The reason why? Because the mainstream view is that those are significant aspects of capitalism. Levivich (talk) 21:48, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

If the mainstream view is that Zionism was colonialism or colonization, you'd be able to produce books by Zionists or "neutral" authors saying that, instead of the list of anti-Zionists ideologues you compiled.

Do you seriously not see the difference between linking to the Marxist theory of production (through a pipe that says y"The Industrial Revolution of the 18th century established capitalism as a dominant mode of production,") and saying "Capitalism is a system that alienates the masses" or "Capitalism will eventually destroy itself", per Marx, in the 2nd sentence of the lead? Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 22:00, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Good catch -- the lead of capitalism didn't mention any of the criticisms of capitalism, and so was not in line with WP:NPOV (I fixed it). If the mainstream view is that Zionism was colonialism or colonization, you'd be able to produce books by Zionists ..., lol, there are lots of examples of Zionists saying Zionism is colonialism. After all, they gave their organizations names like Jewish Colonisation Association and Palestine Jewish Colonization Association, and their bank was called the Jewish Colonial Trust. Do you want me to quote from Herzl's diary as well? Again, I look forward to reviewing your list of modern books about Zionism by "neutral" authors. Levivich (talk) 22:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Again, there are multiple meaning of colonization - the one meant by Zionists naming their organizations "colonial association" is similar to the meaning of "colonisation of Mars" - we are going to create new communities - colonies - in the new land.

And if you wanted to do something similar to what you just did in Capitalism here - add a paragraph at the end of the lead describing the views of anti-Zionists , and saying that they see it a a colonial movement, that would be fine. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 22:22, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Do you have a source (preferably about Zionism) that talks about these supposed multiple meanings of "colonization"? (Also, seriously man, Palestine is not another planet or a "new land," it was already inhabited, unlike Mars. As far as we know.) Or, for the third time, do you have any sources of what you call "neutral" or "non-partisan" modern books about Zionism? Levivich (talk) 22:41, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Are you deliberately being obtuse? I already addressed you Mars complaint, and I understand why it irks you - because it precisely shows that the world "colonization" is commonly used to refer to a situation where no one is exploited, contrary to the POV that you desperately want to push into this article. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 22:59, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

The point is that it's actually a bad analogy because there were people there. The analogy doesn't work. In any case I don't see any work referring to the colonization of palestine as the "non-negative" kind of colonization which you are referring to, if there is indeed such a concept outside the context of uninhabited areas. DMH223344 (talk) 23:17, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

...and also unless you have a source making this distinction between Zionist/Martian colonialism and other kinds of colonialism, it's WP:OR anyway. Levivich (talk) 23:36, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Original research refers to article content, not to page discussions.

Perhaps this point sailed over your head, but the Mars example is precisely one case of the multiple meanings of colonialism you asked for, made glaringly obvious by the fact that there were no other people there to exploit.

But if you want other examples, you can look at the German Templer colonies in Palestine. Somehow I don't see a similar determination to call the Templer movement a "colonial project". Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 23:47, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

We are talking about article content :-) So no, we don't write article content based on WP:OR, such as an editor's opinion that Zionist/Templer/Martian colonization is different from other types of colonization. BTW, you know the Templer article talks about colonies, right? Like at Templer#Templer colonies. If you're just objecting to "colonial project" and not to other forms of the word (e.g. colony, colonization, colonial, etc.), then we're done here, because this article doesn't say "colonial project" anymore. Levivich (talk) 00:00, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

No we are not. I am not suggesting we write anything like "there are multiple meaning of colonization" in the article, whcih would be impermissible OR. I am just explaining why we shouldn't write 'Zionism is a colonial project" in the article, and giving my reasoning, which is perfectly acceptable.

And yes of course I know the Templer article talks about colonies- that is precisely the point! That's the reason I brought it up, as another example of the use of 'colonization' (alongside the Martian one) which does not imply a 'colonial project' predicated on exploitation of inferior cultures. The Templers established colonies, but there are no POV-pushers seeking to call the Templer movement a "colonial project" (in the first paragraph of the lead of the Templer article, no less!) - which is just another example of how people can talk about colonies, about establishing colonies, and even describing their inhabitants as "colonists", without coming to the conclusion that they all belonged to a "colonial project".

Similarly, this article can say that Zionists established colonies, it can say they called their organizations "The Colonial Trust" etc.. - but just like the Templer article doesn't call it a colonial project or a movement founded to colonize Palestine in the lead, so should this article avoid that. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 00:54, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I completely agree that the colonization of an empty land, such as Mars, does not involve exploitation of inferior cultures. What I am saying in response is: the colonization of Palestine is not analogous to the colonization of Mars because Palestine was not an empty land like Mars. The colonization of Palestine involved the exploitation of cultures viewed as inferior by the colonists, which is why "colonization" is a perfectly apt description of Zionism.

The reason this Wikipedia article should say that Zionism was a movement founded to colonize Palestine in the lead is because Zionism was a movement founded to colonize Palestine. From the quote of Labor Zionist historian Shlomo Ben-Ami, below, "Zionism was also a movement of conquest, colonisation and settlement in the service of a just and righteous but also self-indulgent national cause. An enterprise of national liberation and human emancipation that was forced to use the tools of colonial penetration ...".

Because the sources say Zionism was a colonial enterprise, literally the words "colonization" and "enterprise" are in that quote, and because what Ben-Ami is conveying is the mainstream view of Zionism, this Wikipedia article should say the same thing. Because, as Ben-Ami writes, Zionism "was a schizophrenic movement, which suffered from an irreconcilable incongruity between its liberating message and the offensive practices it used to advance it," equating Zionism's "homeland" ("liberating") message and it's colonialism ("offensive practices"), and because that's the mainstream view, this Wikipedia should also equate Zionism's "homeland" message with it's colonialist practices. In other words, if we say in the lead that Zionism was a movement to establish a Jewish homeland in Palestine, for WP:NPOV reasons, we must also say that it was a colonial movement. A colonial enterprise. Or a colonial project, if you will. If you won't, there are other variations that would be fine. What's not fine is omitting the colonial part. Levivich (talk) 01:05, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Did the Templer colonies involve the exploitation of cultures viewed as inferior by the colonists? Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 01:08, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

How the hell should I know? Levivich (talk) 01:11, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

You can read the article about them in this encyclopedia, or elsewhere. I'll wait. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 01:16, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

What I see here in a meantime is undue weight for academic figures with former careers in politics, usually left-side politics, I think we should look for teritary sources from major publications that try to define Zionism in contemporary, non-politicized neutral terms. Galamore (talk) 14:25, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to suggest sources, although Wikipedia articles are built on secondary sources not tertiary. Tertiary might help though. Don't forget to make sure they're modern sources, nobody is going to care about a fifty year old encyclopedia article. Levivich (talk) 14:37, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

https://www.amazon.com/Desert-Sands-Golden-Oranges-Settlement-ebook/dp/B0791MFD6S Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 18:46, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

That's a self-published book. You are really bad at this. Levivich (talk) 19:08, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

There are quite a few sources listed here - Templers_(Radical_Pietist_sect), feel free to peruse any or all of them , if you are actually i terted in Templer history and want to educate yourself a bit, rather than in scoring technical points in this debate. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 19:20, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

From Shlomo Ben-Ami, who is of course a zionist:

Zionism was also a movement of conquest, colonisation and settlementin the service of a just and righteous but also self-indulgent nationalcause. An enterprise of national liberation and human emancipation thatwas forced to use the tools of colonial penetration, it was a schizophrenicmovement, which suffered from an irreconcilable incongruity between itsliberating message and the offensive practices it used to advance it. Thecultivation of a righteous self-image and the ethos of the few against themany, the heroic David facing the brutal, bestial Arab Goliath, was oneway Zionism pretended to reconcile its contradictions.

DMH223344 (talk) 22:50, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Nur Masalha is Palestinian (just as Benny Morris is Israeli) and an excellent scholar.

On the other hand, lots of the texts here are a long way short of "best sources", despite Levivich's compelling argument for using such. For instance, Nutt is a PhD thesis, and Gowan is a very fringe non-academic writer, and several are published by radical non-academic presses (such as Zed and Pluto) whose lists mix critical scholarship with activist polemic. Would be better to highlight the actual best sources, and ideally those that are about Zionism at its most general level rather than e.g. about very specific aspects of recent Israeli history. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:45, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

You're right about Nutt -- my bad, I just saw University of Exeter and missed that it's a PhD thesis not a book. I've struck that above.

I don't know anything about Gowan but Baraka Books seems like a mainstream publisher; I'm not seeing any reason to discount them (although I know nothing about them besides what's on their website)

As for Zed Books and Pluto Press, take that to WP:RSN if you want to make the case that they are not reliable mainstream publishers. Being progressive doesn't mean they're unreliable, and there are lots and lots of high-quality sources from mainstream scholars published by those two outlets (like Nur Masalha, who is, despite common protestations, a highly-respected, highly-cited scholar in this field). Remember: bias is not unreliability.

I agree with you, though, that this list is not a list of WP:BESTSOURCES for this article -- there are better sources than the ones listed -- but it is a list of RS (modern books about Zionism) with colonial in their titles. Levivich (talk) 17:31, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Even a casual search throws up a multiplicity of suitable sourcing. Selfstudier (talk) 17:39, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

E.g., 50,000 Google Scholar results for zionism colonialism. Those won't all be relevant or reliable sources, of course, but still, the order of magnitude speaks for itself. 77 in their titles, and that's without checking variations like "Zionist" and "colonization." Levivich (talk) 17:43, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

The point is not that Masalha is a Palestinian, but that he is an anti-Zionist, just like Halper or Shamir. This is an attempt to use the view of anit-Zionists (Israeli, Palestinians or others) to define Zionism. We don't use Hayek or von Mises to define Keynesian economics in the lead of that article, and we shouldn't rely on anti-Zionists to define Zionism in the lead here. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 18:54, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Maybe you missed the comments about best sources, do try and bring some, sometime. Selfstudier (talk) 18:58, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I've brought several already, only to be met with repeated goalpost moving, by people offering up PhD theses they have clearly never read, by people they have never previously heard of, as "best sources", based on the fact that they had both the words "Zionism" and "colonialism" in the title. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 19:23, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

It does indeed seem like we are in agreement that "colonialism" is the right word to use. Should we now open up a discussion about the use of "colonial project" in the lead? DMH223344 (talk) 02:58, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

From the conclusion of Righteous Victims:

Zionism was a colonizing and expansionist ideology and movement.

From Ben-Ami (page 3 of his book):

Zionism was also a movement of conquest, colonisation and settlement in the service of a just and righteous but also self-indulgent national cause.

From Anita Shapira (the conclusion of Land and Power):

One of its (pre­sumably singular) characteristic features stemmed from the fact that it was a national liberation movement that was destined to function as a movement pro­moting settlement in a country of colonization. This incongruity between the lib­erating and progressive message internally and the aggressive message externally acted as a central factor in the shaping of self-images and norms—and, in the end, also patterns of action—in the Zionist movement. Zionist psychology was molded by the conflicting parameters of a national liberation movement and a movement of European colonization in a Middle Eastern country.The Zionist movement was a decided latecomer on the colonial scene: Move­ments of colonization by Europeans were common up to the late nineteenth cen­tury.

All three of these historians are Zionist, and Shapira herself is a traditionalist historian, no less. Of course plenty of non-zionist historians also describe Zionism in similar terms. The word choice here is "movement" rather than "project", but I don't think there is actually a difference between the two in this context. DMH223344 (talk) 05:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Where did you see we are in agreement that colonialism is the right word? I'm totally against it, and from recent edits I see I'm not alone. Galamore (talk) 14:26, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if you're against it, what matters are reliable sources. They all say this, as we've well proven here. You and the other accounts hitting undo doesn't mean there isn't consensus. You and the others can say you're against it all you want, but without any sources backing up your view, and in the face of so many directly contradicting it, your opinions simply aren't relevant. Levivich (talk) 14:30, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

They don't "all say this". and in fact we have first-rate, academic reliable sources (e.g. Morris) who say the exact opposite.

Your dismissive attitude here and your forum-like rants below about "seeing the last gasps of Zionism" suggest that you are probably too emotionally invested to be editing here. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 14:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Morris's book review makes one. I'm still waiting for a second example. Levivich (talk) 14:35, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Hell I gave you a freebie second example with Karsh. How about a third? Levivich (talk) 14:36, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Still playing this game? Try Einat Wilf. And then ask for a fourth, and a fifth, ad nauseum Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 14:44, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Give me a quote and a citation, I'm not going to go searching for it. Levivich (talk) 14:48, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

"To portray Israel as the outcome of the Holocaust is to engage in Zionism Denial. It robs the Jews of their agency, their history, their historical connection to the land of Israel and their yearning to return to it. It erases all that was dreamt, written, done and achieved by the Zionists before World War II. It turns Israel into a colonial project of guilty Europeans rather than a national liberation project of an indigenous people reclaiming their homeland. In remembering the Holocaust, " [3] Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 14:58, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Peer reviewed, was it? Jeez. Selfstudier (talk) 15:01, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

And the goal posts move yet again. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 15:03, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Einat Wilf. That your best shot at WP:BESTSOURCES? A 2 page polemic? Selfstudier (talk) 15:05, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

JFC she's not even an academic? Levivich (talk) 15:25, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Einat Wolf is an appalling source. To quote Kentucky Rain, citing her is as compelling as relying on Tucker Carlson in an article about conservatism. She's a pundit not a scholar. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

This *also* doesn't say that Zionism is not colonialism. It just says that it's not *purely* a project of "guilty Europeans". In any case, there are plenty of sources that describe Zionism as both a colonial project and a nationalist movement (see Ben-Ami and Khalidi). DMH223344 (talk) 15:28, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

And yes of course a fourth and a fifth and more. There are like 10+ sources on this page saying colonialism, so bring 10+ citations saying otherwise. 3 won't cut it anyway. But we're not even at 3 yet. Levivich (talk) 14:50, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

From an anti-Zionist: "To this day, Zionist apologists 50 (and Kimmerling himself to start with) argue that Zionism was not a colonial project because it was not predicated on the exploitation of Arab labor. 51 This is essentially correct. That is why Zionism was not colonial in an abstract sense, and certainly not a case of metropolitan colonialism. That is also why, precisely because it was from a very early stage exclusive of native labor, the Zionist project was a typical pure settler colony, with its own distinctive trajectory." [4]

How long we play this game? Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 15:02, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

WP:NPOV is still waiting for you to catch on/up. Selfstudier (talk) 15:08, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Seriously man, get on the level. Modern books about Zionism. I posted 10+ books that have "colonial" in their titles. Believe, there are 10 more where it's not in the titles but it's in there prominently just the same. Books by scholars published by academic or mainstream publishers written in the 21st century.

If you want to start talking about papers instead of books, I can show you hundreds of peer reviewed papers in academic journals about Zionism and colonialism. That's why we look at books instead, papers is too big of a pile.

This is not "moving goalpoasts," we have standards here, it's WP:BESTSOURCES. Meet them or move along. Levivich (talk) 15:23, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

This quote doesnt even say that Zionism is not colonialism DMH223344 (talk) 15:25, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

This isn't hard, find and bring sources that support your position, that's it. Selfstudier (talk) 14:58, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Righteous Victims is Morris' respected work. His opinions in later book reviews are certainly not representative of his work as a "first rate scholar". He says exactly: "Zionism was a colonizing and expansionist ideology and movement.". DMH223344 (talk) 15:09, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I dont even get how this is in dispute, its a newer thing for Zionists to disclaim any notion that it was/is a colonial enterprise. But even early Zionists were very clear on their goals and the language they used for it was colonization. nableezy - 13:16, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

It's a natural response to all the recent scholarship about settler-colonialism. Because once you concede it's colonialism, you really have to concede it's settler colonialism, so the only way to fight that is to take the position that it's not colonialism (because you can't dispute the settler part). And if they concede it's settler colonialism, then they look like the bad guy. Even more so than they already do. Six months after the worst attack on Jews since the Holocaust and they're facing a united security council, allegations of genocide being taken seriously by the West, and the very real prospect of ICC arrest warrants. The return of left-wing parties to power is just one election away, and settlement dismantlement will soon follow. We are witnessing the last gasps of Zionism, and like in other topic areas, what's happening in the real world is being mirrored on Wikipedia. Levivich (talk) 14:23, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

'the return of left-wing parties'. That sounds like the sighting of a dodo, and if so, the Smithsonian should be alerted.Nishidani (talk) 08:23, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Golan's new heights? Levivich (talk) 12:51, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, Golan, um, golem? He's on record as saying, commendably, the unsayable but . . it's simple: good sentiments and even good ideas will never get sufficient leverage in our political systems to achieve any significant structural change. This is true in particular also of Israel where pure psephological analysis of the makeup of electoral constituencies, and their conflicting interests, together with demographic forecasts, mean a 64 majority in the Knesset for anything identifiably 'left' is unachievable. In 2022, they were scrounging desperately for 7% of votes. Sigh.Nishidani (talk) 13:37, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

"return to power" may have been a slight overstatement, perhaps more accurately, a "return to relevancy" 😂 Levivich (talk) 13:54, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

History is jealous of its prerogatives, and dislikes, with a vengeance, being upstaged by miracles.Nishidani (talk) 14:00, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Yeah but this isn’t supposed to be about how people feel, it’s supposed to be about what the sources say. This effort to just ignore the sources here makes no sense in a Wikipedia supposedly governed by rules that force us to discuss the sources and not our feelings. nableezy - 15:20, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Tbh I'm just too lazy to collect the diffs for another round of sock sweeping, and I'm guessing everyone else is, too. Levivich (talk) 15:32, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Golf season >>>> diff collecting. nableezy - 15:59, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

It probably wouldn't happen if WP:NOTHERE was taken as seriously as 1RR violations and salty language. Sean.hoyland (talk) 17:01, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

• @Levivich: - time for round 3? Decide what wording to include? starship.paint (RUN) 02:07, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

  I think so. For my part, I'm fine with the wording as is, but open to alternatives. Levivich (talk) 04:13, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Ambiguous pronoun

To whom does the pronoun "he" refer in this paragraph, Ha'am or Herzl? The name should be used to avoid the ambiguity.

"Starting early on, Zionism had its critics, the cultural Zionist Ahad Ha'am in the early 20th century wrote that there was no creativity in Herzl's Zionist movement, and that its culture was European and specifically German. He viewed the movement as depicting Jews as simple transmitters of imperialist European culture." 69.166.116.114 (talk) 02:04, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Removal of description as "state ideology"

@Zero0000, can you explain why you had removed the quote "It has also been described as Israel's national or state ideology."?

I don't necessarily disagree with a rephrasing or elaboration, or perhaps using a better source. But I wanted to understand why you removed the quote. DMH223344 (talk) 15:03, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I can't speak for Zero but that sentence appears rather redundant (and simplistic) given the preceding one? Selfstudier (talk) 15:13, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Simplistic (and also vague) I agree. Although I think it contrasts with the previous sentence which says "development and protection", so I disagree that it's redundant. "State ideology" suggests a much larger role (which I think is more accurate than just "development and protection"). DMH223344 (talk) 15:23, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

It wasn't that sentence which prompted my revert and I won't object if some version of it is restored. What I objected to was stuff like "It is based on the deep historical connection between the Jewish people and the Land of Israel, a land central to Jewish national identity, religion, and history for millennia." which sounds like it came from a Zionist coloring book. Further, it was presented with a quote from Cleveland that seems to position Zionism as a religious movement, when every scholarly treatment shows that it was a secular movement that was vehemently opposed by the religious establishment in Europe. I also objected to someone removing sourced text with a claim that it doesn't have consensus (which I dispute) and at the same time adding pov material for which no consensus had even been attempted. Zero^talk 11:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I restored the line but anyone should feel free to edit it/move it/etc. Levivich (talk) 15:15, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

References

Starting paragraph is full of inaccurate terms

The phrase "through the colonization of a land outside of Europe" uniquely characterizes Zionism, but it may not fully capture the initial ambitions of the movement. This wording implies:

1. Colonizers are sent on behalf of an empire. According the article on colonialism, "Colonialism is the pursuing, establishing, and maintaining of control and exploitation of people and resources by a foreign group."

2. The Jewish community has existed continuously in the Land of Israel for thousands of years.

The phrase "with an eventual focus on Palestine" is accurate in noting that Zionist leaders considered other locations. However, this wording might suggest that Zionists were arbitrarily seeking places to colonize, rather than emphasizing Israel as the only agreed-upon location for historical reasons. Israel was chosen primarily due to its historical and religious significance, which was a key reason for rejecting other potential locations.

The statement "corresponding to the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition" is also worth reconsidering. There are thousands of archaeological artifacts and historical texts that demonstrate the real connection of Jews to the Land of Israel. Using the word "tradition" as the sole reason for this connection can imply that it is merely a part of nationalist narrative rather than a historically documented fact.

It's important to note that this critique does not deny the existence and rights of other nations and communities in the region, both historically and today.

I suggest the following: Zionism is a nationalist movement that emerged in Europe in the late 19th century in response to centuries of persecution, aiming for the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people through the return to their ancestral land in Palestine due to its historical and religious significance to the Jewish people, a region corresponding to the historical and cultural Land of Israel. Stoic reader (talk) 12:24, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I think you are conflating colonization with colonialism. Colonization is a much broader term with a longer and less specific history than colonialism, so arguments against the wording currently in the lead should be directed toward colonization more broadly, not merely modern European colonialism. That being said, the idea that Zionism is/was not deeply connected to 19th and 20th century European colonialism does not stand up to historical scrutiny. Only modern historians seeking to launder Israel's image by retelling its history in a way suitable for a largely post-colonial era make this claim. Unbandito (talk) 12:48, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

WP:EDITXY explains how to write edit requests. WP:LEAD explains how the lead sections of article work. WP:V provides ways to ensure accuracy. Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:24, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

OP needs to redo as simple straightforward request(s) per WP:EDITXY and provide appropriate sourcing of which there is none above, just personal opinion.Selfstudier (talk) 13:32, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

This article seems curiously popular at the moment. Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:43, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

This article seems curiously popular at the moment. Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:43, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

indeed..... DMH223344 (talk) 22:55, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: No sources provided to support the requested change. Levivich (talk) 16:07, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

As amused as I am by the sock/new account swarm and the tried-and-true victory by exhaustion technique on display, how has Jabotinsky not come up yet?Dan Murphy (talk) 01:13, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Jabotinsky came up (maybe not with direct reference to his name) further up on the talk page. As you said "victory by exhaustion technique" DMH223344 (talk) 15:32, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

undue weight flag on "Ethnic unity and descent from Biblical Jews"

added by @Galamore with edit summary: "adding undue weight tag, this is far from a main belief of Zionism, also uses selective sourcing. Should be discussed and maybe dropped)"

What is "this"? And please explain how this section uses "selective sourcing" DMH223344 (talk) 00:28, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

I'd like to know about that, too. Should be a section flag not an article flag and how come there was no discussion following its placement? Selfstudier (talk) 09:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Kinds of zionism

Looking at RSes, I see an emphasis on 3 types of zionism: religious, political and cultural. RSes describe the variations of political zionism to being fundamentally similar with each other. There are of course variations in the ideology of political zionism, but the fundamental aspects are described by RSes as being the same (ie striving for/maintaining a jewish homeland in palestine). This article should present the same overarching classification, rather than present zionism as a completely fragmented ideology that has no commonality that can be pinpointed.

As an example, the recently removed and then reverted text:

Zionism has never been a uniform movement. Its leaders, parties, and ideologies frequently diverged from one another. Compromises and concessions were made in order to achieve a shared cultural and political objective. A variety of types of Zionism have emerged, including political, liberal, labor, revisionist, cultural and religious Zionism.

is inconsistent with RSes which tend to emphasize the commonality between branches of political zionism, which are contrasted with religious and cultural zionism. DMH223344 (talk) 18:59, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, the proper solution is to find a source that specifies such diversity, even if it remains true that Zionism has been from beginning to end uniform in its single-minded goal, replacing the indigenous population with Jews. These distinctions don't matter much historically. Nishidani (talk) 19:58, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Which diversity are you referring to? Do you mean diversity beyond religious, political and cultural? DMH223344 (talk) 20:19, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Grammatically, the 'such' qualifying 'diversity' refers to the 'varieties' mentioned earlier.Nishidani (talk) 21:28, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

There is for example `Zionism: an emotional state` page 36, section title "taxonomies, old and new" DMH223344 (talk) 22:34, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

TBH I saw the edits and I didn't love them, as they seem to recast the lead from "Zionism has many different types" to "Zionism is all one type." Yeah, they all strive for a Jewish homeland (not all of them in Palestine necessarily, but most), but that's like saying there's only one type of religion because they all believe in God. My view is there is a really very significant difference between religious and political Zionism, and between Labor and Revisionist Zionism. But I haven't read the sources closely enough to know exactly how they treat the different types of Zionism (i.e., "how different are they, according to RS?"), but generally speaking, I agree with Nish's partial revert, and I agree with DMH's prior removals. In other words, I don't know much but it seems like this is the right balance. Levivich (talk) 22:49, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't want to suggest that they are all one type, so I appreciate yall's attention here. My main point is that this page should be a treatment of the zionist branches discussed in RS when explaining what zionism is (which from my reading is typically broken down into political, religious and cultural)--not a discussion of every (or even most) political party that is considered zionist.

To be clear, I do think my edit could have been more thoughtful than just deleting the text. I'll propose an alternative. DMH223344 (talk) 23:12, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

I think you're on the right track in terms of paring the old text down and bringing some clarity about the types of Zionism, and thank you for your efforts in this regard. FWIW, and this is just like my opinion and not based on a reading of sources, but I've always thought of it as a tiered branch or like a tree. The first split is between religious and political. Religious includes Religious Zionism, Christian Zionism, etc. Political Zionism splits into Liberal Zionism v. Labor Zionism v. Revisionist Zionism, and those are the "old" splits. More recently, neo-Zionism v. Reform Zionism. So my own impression is that there is a religious and a political version, and the political version breaks up into liberal and conservative branches. Idk if the sources frame it that way, though. Levivich (talk) 23:29, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

A first go at this:

Modern political Zionism, being distinct from religious Zionism, is a movement composed of various political groups. Ideologically, the consensus amongst mainstream Zionist factions has been support for territorial concentration and a Jewish demographic majority in Palestine. Liberal, labor, revisionist and cultural Zionism have historically each been part of the Zionist mainstream, while groups such as Brit-Shalom and Ihud have comprised dissident groups within the Zionist movement.

after which I would continue with:

Advocates of Zionism have viewed...

DMH223344 (talk) 06:29, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

The sources represented here: Yosef Gorny, Zionism and the Arabs; Penslar, Zionism; Righteous Victims; Fateful Triangle; Iron Wall.

I wanted to also check the list of sources on Zionism mentioned in Iron Wall.

If you have other sources/authors you think I should check please send them my way. DMH223344 (talk) 06:32, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Types of Zionism lists ten varieties, but a simpler approach would be to look at antithetical strains in the movement, the contrasting thrusts of liberal/enlightened versus neo-romantic Zionism (though Lev's political/religious divide also has cogency). In political and social terms, the former has always lost out to the latter, as one would expect, given that formatively, and in its doctrinal core, Zionism in practice remains true to its ethnonationalistic origins.

Any ideology that endures will exhibit multiple versions, as, to use Lev's metaphor, it branches out according to different interests and adapts to changing historical circumstances, so Zionism is no different from what one would expect. Christianity, Islam, Judaism all have their major and minor currents (and currents reminds me of Marxism, Leszek Kolakowski entitled his magisterial 3 volume survey of Marx's heritage, Main Currents of Marxism(1978) It is easy to get conceptually overwhelmed by the terminological variety, so that nuanced aspects of a general principle take on the shape of major shades. Brit Shalom is an historical relic, -like Socinianism – and was really just a short-lived extension of Cultural Zionism, itself a fossilized residue.

Just looking around, I see that leads emphasize diversity in their descriptions of such movements, save for Islam.

Marxism has developed over time into various branches and schools of thought, and as a result, there is no single, definitive Marxist theory.Marxism

Jewish religious doctrine encompasses a wide body of texts, practices, theological positions, and forms of organization. Judaism

Christianity remains culturally diverse in its Western and Eastern branches, and doctrinally diverse concerning justification and the nature of salvation, ecclesiology, ordination, and Christology. Christianity

Not unexpectedly, at least for me, the same nuancing of diversity is absent from the article on Islam, which just gives us the simplistic Sunni/Shiite divide.

Rather than work up a significant amount of text to plunge into the aspectual details, I think the above three formulations, in lieu of a couple of synthetic authoritative sources that cover this diversity, provide a narrative template to craft the statement needed for Zionism.Nishidani (talk) 07:31, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Emphasizing diversity in the movement seems fine. I will spend some time to see how the literature does it.

The more I read, the more I see sources (both which I would consider "pro-Zionist" and "anti-Zionist") which emphasize the similarities between the allegedly very different branches of Zionism. For example from Penslar: "Divisions within Zionism between the Left and Right are real yet fluid and epiphenomenal.", from Shapira: "Along with this, there were some who noted that what distinguished between the method of the Labor movement and that of the IZL was no longer a difference between self-sacrifice in work and defense and self-sac­rifice in war and bloodshed, as in the past. Rather, now it became a fine distinction between two types of war and bloodshed: Though one was more “civilized” than the other, they did not differ in essential respects.", Shlaim: "So in the final analysis the gap was not all that great: Labor leaders, too, came to rely increasingly on the strategy of the iron wall.", Chomsky: "In essence, then, the two programs are not very different. Their difference lies primarily in style.".

Even Ben-Ami describes the differences between Labor and Revisionist to be mostly political: "At the root of the differences lay, as so often, a struggle for political hegemony, but the questions of substance that divided these two major strands of Zionist politics were considerable." and from the prelude of Scars of War:

Zionist democratic diversity did not mean that there was no commonground between the major segments of the movement. Initially, Ben-Gurion preferred an ‘iron wall of workers’, namely settlements and Jewish infrastructure, on Jabotinsky’s call for an iron wall of military might and deterrence... he even lashed out against what he defined as Jabotinsky’s ‘perverted national fanaticism’, and against the Revisionists’‘worthless prattle of sham heroes, whose lips becloud the moral purity of our national movement. . .’ Eventually, however, under the growing chal-lenge of Arab nationalism and especially with the growth in the Yishuv of a collective mood of sacred Jewish nationalism following the Holocaust,the Labour Zionists, chief among them David Ben-Gurion, accepted forall practical purposes Jabotinsky’s iron-wall strategy. The Jewish State could only emerge, and force the Arabs to accept it, if it erected around it an impregnable wall of Jewish might and deterrence.

DMH223344 (talk) 16:27, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

My compliments for your diligence in the pursuit of high quality sources. I think you have enough to craft a brief accurate summary of this diversity within a common framework, and footnotes never hurt. Regards Nishidani (talk) 16:43, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

RS stress diversity politically, and tend to explain similarities in strategy, esp across the spectrum of right to left. RS do not explain the diversity in a similar way to the quotes introducing Christianity, Judaism and Marxism--I did not find an emphasis on variety in doctrine, ideology, schools of thought or positions.

In summarizing the body of the text, I thought it was also important to mention a point of emphasis I did find, which was in the use of violence against Palestinians common in the strategy from right to left in the mainstream zionist movements that dominated.

The term "Zionism" has been applied to various approaches to addressing issues faced by European Jews in the late 19th century. Modern political Zionism, different from religious Zionism, is a movement made up of diverse political groups whose strategies and tactics have changed over time. The common ideology among mainstream Zionist factions is support for territorial concentration and a Jewish demographic majority in Palestine. The Zionist mainstream has historically included liberal, labor, revisionist, and cultural Zionism, while groups like Brit-Shalom and Ihud have been dissident factions within the movement. Differences within the mainstream Zionist groups lie primarily in their presentation and ethos, having adopted similar political strategies and approaches to dealing with the local Palestinian population, especially regarding the use of violence and compulsory transfer.

I will of course add footnotes, but only after the text has solidified a bit (or if someone asks for them up front).

I am open to excluding explicit mention of Brit-Shalom and Ihud, as most RS do tend to treat them in an almost dismissive manor as movements that were not able to sustain traction. DMH223344 (talk) 20:54, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Spelling Mistake

I can't edit the article myself but in this article it says "pqroponents" instead of proponents. 2001:8003:382D:9200:13B:F1F1:C70:3C2E (talk) 01:21, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Done, thank you. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 02:57, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Nur Masalha quote

The "Role in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict" section has a quote from Nur Masalha. The information in this quote is not just his assessment, but is also the scholarly consensus on zionism and as anita shapira calls it the "resort to force".

I will propose a version which changes the quote into a discussion with references to relevant sources. DMH223344 (talk) 18:28, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

This is now done. @IOHANNVSVERVS you might want to review it. DMH223344 (talk) 19:42, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. I prefer keeping the quote as it is very well said and contains a lot of information regarding the specific people and groups. Not to say your added analysis should be removed but why not still include the quote additionally? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:49, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

One can always conserve the quote in a footnote.Nishidani (talk) 19:57, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Can you point out the specific points that you think are missing? I know the mention of names is now gone (maybe we can preserve the most notable ones as I've done with bengurion) but I do agree that a footnote works well for that.

I'm mostly concerned with readability and don't want to misrepresent the content as the analysis of a single (or even just a handful) of scholars. DMH223344 (talk) 19:59, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

It's not "misrepresenting the content as the analysis of a single scholar", it's just presenting a succinct quotation to summarize the facts. The quotation is very brief for how much informtion it contains and I doubt we can convey that information any better ourselves. I don't see any reason not to include the quotation. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:05, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

But DMH223344 has already accepted the compromise, locating the full quote in a footnote.Nishidani (talk) 20:11, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't think I agree (but maybe you could convince me). I think it's more important to get the main points across while also demonstrating that these were indeed the consensus in the movement and that scholars do indeed agree on this. Following up the paragraph with the extended quote seems like WP:QUOTEFARM and I think would risk overwhelming readers with somewhat of a repetition.

Could we instead pick out portions of the quote and work them into the body instead of using blockquote? DMH223344 (talk) 20:25, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't feel strongly about it either way. Thanks for the courtesy of pinging me about this DMH and thank you for including the quotation in a footnote. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:29, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

got it, no problem, thanks for discussing DMH223344 (talk) 20:31, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

"Deeply embedded" vs "considered important"

"considered important" is more precise than the vague "deeply embedded". What does it even mean to be embedded?

What's missing from "considered important"? DMH223344 (talk) 19:15, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

"considered important" is not "more precise". It changes something stated as fact ("it is embedded") into a vague 'considered'- e,g, only some consider it so, and it doesn't say considered by whom.

To be embedded means to be at the core of something, rather than merely important. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 20:53, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Agree, seems quite obvious. Possibly there is better wording than "considered important", but "deeply embedded" is too vague be acceptable language here. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 21:04, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Something cannot be important to Jewish history. It can be important to the study of Jewish history, which isn't the same thing. I rewrote the original lengthy sentence because it made a similar error by using a preposition before several nouns where sometimes it didn't belong. Also, I don't see what's wrong with 'deeply embedded'. It's a simple fact, not weasel and not vague either. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 21:11, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I removed the whole phrase, and copyedited the rest of the sentence. That Palestine corresponds to the Land of Israel in Judaism is worth explaining. That it's important to Judaism is obvious; we don't need to beat the reader over the head by saying it's important to Jewish religion, culture, tradition, history, identity, etc. etc. in the first paragraph of the lead of Zionism. If the reader wants to learn more about the Land of Israel, they can click the link. Also, WP:BRITANNICA is not a good source. Levivich (talk) 21:34, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the Land of Israel wiki article is a very reliable source for what is a very complicated set of concepts and only appears to be conflated with Palestine as a commensurate synonym in relatively modern times, when it was extended to include the Philistine area (Gaza Strip) outside of the biblically derived frontiers of the god-given Israel (though even these were subject to rabbinical disputation) . Certainly it is now used interchangeably with the latter, however.Nishidani (talk) 21:42, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

So do we have a decision here? I see we still have "deeply embedded". I'm sure we can do better than that for the purposes of an encyclopedia. DMH223344 (talk) 19:51, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I suggest changing "an area deeply embedded in Jewish history, religion and the identity" into "an important and central area in Jewish history, religion and identity" Vegan416 (talk) 19:55, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

that sounds reasonable to me DMH223344 (talk) 20:03, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

This is definitely better. Boldly implementing. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:03, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I implemented "an area of central importance in Jewish history and religion", removing "Jewish identity" as it is not clear if this aspect is due for inclusion (Land of Israel etc not mentioned in the lead of that article for example). IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:10, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

If you are starting to make further changes than I suggest changing "a region corresponding to the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition, an area of central importance in Jewish history and religion" into "a region called the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition, which is the ancient homeland of the Jewish people, and of central importance in Jewish history and religion" Vegan416 (talk) 20:30, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Off topic discussion IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 16:49, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough. In theory, the reader could click the link and learn more about it. :-P Frankly I never understood why Wikipedia has separate articles for Land of Israel, Holy Land, Promised Land, and Palestine (region). There ought to be one article about the region, one sub-article about the region in religion, and if there's enough RS, additional sub-articles about the region in specific religions. Levivich (talk) 21:51, 23 June 2024 (UTC) Yep. Terminological pullulation like that's all pretty silly, sorry dumb-arsed. But I don't imagine anyone has the Sitzfleisch , let alone an Iron Dome efficient anti-editwarring defense system to fix the mess. Let's leave invitations to suicide to the usual suspects:) What's done is (over)done and quarterbaked. I for one will go to bed reciting with a sigh 諦め (akirame)(resignation) Nishidani (talk) 21:59, 23 June 2024 (UTC) @Levivich you will understand why, once you start thinking how to call your suggested single article... Vegan416 (talk) 04:41, 24 June 2024 (UTC) Palestine in religion. Sub-article: Palestine in Abrahamic religions (Holy Land and Promised Land can redirect here). Sub-articles: Land of Israel (aka "Palestine in Judaism"), Palestine in Christianity, Palestine in Islam. Levivich (talk) 04:48, 24 June 2024 (UTC) I'm not surprised by your choices :-) But many people will object to you, since your suggestion seems to give precedence to the name Palestine over the other names, which is arguably a violation of NPOV. I mean, because of NPOV reasons we have in Wikipedia even an article about Turtle Island, despite the fact that this name for North America was invented only in the 20th century. In contrast the name Land of Israel appears in the Bible at least 2500 years ago. Vegan416 (talk) 06:22, 24 June 2024 (UTC) The article is called Palestine (region), which is why the subarticles would be "Palestine in...". Doesn't matter what name is the oldest. Per WP:AT policy (common name, consistency, etc.). If the main article were "Israel (region)" then the subarticles would be "Israel in...". Levivich (talk) 14:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC) Then, if you decide to have only one article on the subject then people will ask you why do you call it Palestine (region) rather than Israel (region)? Also you didn't explain why, according to your suggestion, Turtle Island deserves an article of its own, and Land of Israel doesn't? Vegan416 (talk) 16:42, 24 June 2024 (UTC) Sigh. Selfstudier (talk) 16:44, 24 June 2024 (UTC) This is off topic IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 16:44, 24 June 2024 (UTC) @Nishidani Let me remind you that the borders of "Palestine" are also a very fluid term. I always find it weird when people talk with utmost seriousness about the "historical borders of Palestine" when the borders which they refer to were first set out only around 1920-1922, as the borders of the British mandate. Vegan416 (talk) 06:57, 24 June 2024 (UTC) Oh thanks for the courtesy of reminding me of the obvious. Nishidani (talk) 09:25, 24 June 2024 (UTC) If it's obvious then what exactly is your complaint about about the article Land of Israel? Vegan416 (talk) 09:37, 24 June 2024 (UTC) Oh fachrissake. Lay off trying to spin a twisted thread out of some brief conversational lint that had an amiable purpose, of precision. I haven't got Ariadne's email to call for succour, were I to engage in the predictable labyrinths of waffle looming. Drop it.Nishidani (talk) 09:49, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Maybe use "a central important area" instead of "an atra considered important". Vegan416 (talk) 11:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Deeply embedded goes beyond being just important: it is all encompassing and includes that which cannot be expressed simply and distinctly, which is the intended meaning here. By its very nature it includes an element of vagueness. It is therefore more accurate than of central importance. If any editor doesn't understand that then we cannot help, but as an encyclopedia we should not always aim for the lowest common denominator but try to write to the level of an averagely well educated reader, just like any other encyclopedia. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 20:34, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

How is something that is vague considered to be more accurate? DMH223344 (talk) 20:36, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

If it describes vagueness it is accurate. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 21:00, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

So if that's representative of RS, let's describe the connection as vague and important. We can of course be more precise than "deeply embedded", even if describing a vague concept. DMH223344 (talk) 21:04, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Some people cannot handle the indefinable, they strive to operate like a computer with every thought having to be precisely defined in relation to every other thought otherwise something is wrong with it. Defining the indefinable requires a different mindset, an alternative way of viewing the world. English caters for that ambiguity with certain words and phrases, such as deeply embedded. If we all operated like a robot, the world would be a boring place, wouldn't it? Roger 8 Roger (talk) 22:07, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia... Per WP:MOS "Editors should write articles using straightforward, succinct, easily understood language". IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 22:13, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

This is a talk page not the encyclopedia. If refering to 'deeply embedded', it's a perfectly normal phrase, understood by an averagely educated reader, which is our target audience. If somebody doesn't understand what it means, meaning they are not up to that level of understanding, we cannot do much about that. Catering for the lowest common denominator is not our job and is fraught with problems. Considered important is not a synonym of deeply embedded, it has a different meaning, so the question is not about comparing two words that mean the same (and using the one most understood), it's about which meaning to describe. If you can come up with other words that are synonyms of deeply embedded then please show us and we can choose which one is more understood by an averagely educated reader. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 23:05, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

No idea what deeply embedded means here and I resent the implication that I am not averagely educated, whatever that means. What happened to RS? Do we have RS saying anything about this, and if so, what do they say? Selfstudier (talk) 09:50, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Me either. Clearly goes against WP:WEASEL: "The word "clearly" and other words of its kind are often a form of handwaving which asserts that a conclusion has been demonstrated. Wikipedia articles should not be making arguments in the first place. Simply state facts, cite the sources of them, and let the readers draw their own conclusions." Makeandtoss (talk) 12:24, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

please explain deletion of Sucharov survey

@DMH223344: On 2024-06-18T00:24:04, you deleted the survey of American Jews by Sucharov, saying "out of place table".

I believe this table is critical to understanding the current Israel-Hamas war, because it suggests that very few American Jews would support the routine mistreatment of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza if they knew about it. My research, discussed in Wikiversity:How might the world be different if the PLO had followed Gandhi?, suggests they do NOT know about it, because the media they find credible rarely if ever report on it. On the other side, the media consumed by supporters of Palestinians, rarely if ever report on how Israelis and supporters of Israel react differently to violent and nonviolent actions by Palestinians. As a result each side supports counterproductive actions.

If you think that table belongs elsewhere in this article or in another Wikipedia article, please help me find a place for it. If you think it does not belong in Wikipedia at all, please explain why.

Thanks for your many contributions to Wikipedia:Prime objective to building "a world in which every single person on the planet is given free access to the sum of all human knowledge." DavidMCEddy (talk) 22:26, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

A few points:

• It's not clear what they were asked or what the response format was.
• I think there should be some analysis of the results presented, not just a table without any context.
• Maybe a case could be made for a section in this article about "conceptions of zionism" or something like that. This could belong there, but there would have to be some other content to justify it.
• There's a quote in your linked article "Similarly, the nonviolence of the First Intifada led to the election of Yitzhak Rabin as Prime Minister of Israel on a platform of negotiating with Palestinians. That led to the Oslo Accords and the current State of Palestine. We claim that if the Palestinians had maintained nonviolent discipline, the two-state solution promised at Oslo would likely have worked to benefit all." This is the first time I've heard this narrative--it's inconsistent with most RS out there.

DMH223344 (talk) 00:59, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

The lead should say "aimed for the *re-establishment* of a homeland for the Jewish people" rather than "establishment"

Two of the sources referenced for this sentence use the word "re-establishment": ref [5] & [7]. Also there is no dispute that this was the ancient homeland of the Jews. Also, Selfstudier, contrary to your claim, this sentence in the lead doesn't say anything at all about Balfour declaration, and doesn't refer to it. This declaration is mentioned only at the end of two paragraphs later. The sentence describes the aim of Zionism starting at the end of the 19th century. This is the full sentence: " Zionism is an ethnic or ethno-cultural nationalist movement that emerged in Europe in the late 19th century and aimed for the re-establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people through the colonization of Palestine". Balfour declaration happened only in 1917. So, Selfstudier, I have to ask you to self-revert.

Vegan416 (talk) 13:14, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

"homeland [national home] for the Jewish people" comes from the Balfour Declaration and that is the reason why it occurred at all. Selfstudier (talk) 13:28, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Nonsense. The concept of the Land of Israel as "the homeland for the Jewish people" preceded the Balfour deceleration by many years, even if you limit yourself only to the Zionist movement, and by many many many years if you look at Jewish history at large. Also, it is quite telling that you made this erroneous claim without even remembering the exact words of the Balfour declaration... Anyway, your OR hypothesis, even if it was correct (and it is NOT) doesn't stand against the language used by the RS referenced in the sentence. So I must ask you again to self-revert. Vegan416 (talk) 13:36, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

No idea where the Land of Israel is, is that Palestine? Selfstudier (talk) 13:50, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

"Re-establishment," i.e. to make an ideological connection between the ancient past and the modern era, is POV and not a factuality. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:59, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Palestine was (part of) the homeland of the Canaanites, the Israelites, the Philistines, the Jews, the Samaritans, and Christians whose formative world began there and persisted for several centuries while, as with Judaism, flowing abroad. For a millenium it has been a homeland for Palestinian Arabs. It has long been a core religious symbol of original belonging for Jews,many of whom, if I may hazard a generalization based on my own background, have very little awareness of how powerful that symbol of origins was for Christians, Catholics, and of course, for Palestinians. When you wish to write 'homeland of the Jews' you are, between the lines, intimating no other historic people considered it a homeland, which is contrafactual. It is pointless trying to wedge in standard clichés that have a certain rhetorical valency, but dumbdown the complexities of history.Zionism 'colonized' a Jewish homeland?Nishidani (talk) 14:03, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Your claim that writing "re-establishment" instead of "establishment" implies somehow that "no other historic people considered it a homeland" is completely false and has no basis in logic or the ways of the English language. And as for the Canaanites, Philistines etc, if a Canaanite nation would have survived till now and wished to rebuild its homeland in Canaan then we would also say that their aim is to "re-establish a homeland for the Canaanite people". What's the problem with that? Vegan416 (talk) 16:42, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that it is POV and not factual. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:17, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

It seems sources typically use "established":

Shapira: Pinsker analyzed antisemitism in depth and concluded by calling for the establishment of a Jewish homeland also The establishment of the Jewish state was one of history’s rare miracles.

Ben-ami on the Basel Congress (uses "create"): ‘The aim of Zionism’ was, as the Basel Congressdefined it, ‘to create for the Jewish people a home in Palestine securedby law.’

The making of Modern Zionism:

Herzl’s state, Ahad Ha’am argues, may perhaps be a State of Jews (Judenstaat—as Herzl’s pamphlet was indeed called); but it will not be a Jewish State (Jüdischer Staat), and it is a Jewish state that Ahad Ha’am would like to see established. Since a large proportion of the Jewish people will remain for a long period outside the state after it is established—and it may also take some time for such a state to be created—it is imperative that the new Land of Israel should become a focus for identification for all Jewish people. Because of the nationalist context of modern cultural development in Europe, a renaissance of Jewish culture in the Diaspora is no longer possible. Therefore, for the continued existence of a national Jewish identity outside of Palestine, a Jewish community in Palestine is necessary, which will radiate its culture to the Diaspora and facilitate this modern Jewish existence. Otherwise, any Jewish person who does not go to Palestine will lose his Jewish identity sooner or later. A political Zionism, focusing exclusively on the establishment of a Jewish state, overlooks this cultural dimension, which is vital for Jewish continued existence.

Benny Morris of course uses "re-establishde": The Zionists saw their enterprise and aspirations as legitimate, indeed, as supremely moral: the Jewish people, oppressed and murdered in Christendom and in the Islamic lands, was bent on saving itself by returning to its ancient land and there reestablishing its self-determination and sovereignty.

Penslar (create): Until 1948 Zionism’s goal was to create a Jewish homeland in a terri-tory with which Jewish civilization was intimately linked: the ancient Land of Israel.

To The Promised Land (describing the revisionist congress): As its title implied, its manifesto was to ‘revise’ Zionism by returning to the original principles of Herzl: a Jewish homeland guaranteed by international law as the prerequisite for mass colonization, leading to a Jewish majority in Palestine and the establishment of the Jewish state.

Shlaim: At the end of the congress, Ben-Gurion presented himself for reelection as chairman of the Jewish Agency Executive for the specific purpose of working toward the establishment of a Jewish state. DMH223344 (talk) 18:21, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Ill add myself to the chorus of voices opposed to this suggested change, "re-establishment" is an explicitly Zionist POV. nableezy - 18:31, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Nableezy & @Makeandtoss, This is not a Zionist POV. This is factual. I can show it both by logical argument and by reference to RS:

1. The logical argument is simple: There are 3 facts that are not denied by any scholar: (a) The was a Jewish homeland/state in the Past in this region. (b) The Zionists wished to establish a Jewish homeland/state in this region again. (c) In English the phrase "to establish again" can be shortened to "re-establish". Conclusion: "The Zionists wished to re-establish a Jewish homeland/state in this region". If you claim that this conclusion is a POV and not factual you have to show RS that dispute one of the 3 premises of this simple syllogism.

2. As for RS, contrary to your claim that this is an "explicit Zionist POV", many books published by reputable and academic publishers, that have nothing to do with Zionism, use "re-establish/reestablish a Jewish homeland" (and variations thereof). Here are a few examples: (there are many more, but I got tired of copy pasting) Vegan416 (talk) 08:48, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

First source is a dictionary; second refers to the perspective of a novel; third from the perspective of George Orwell; fourth is not a high quality source; fifth from someone's perspective; sixth also from Zionism's perspective; seventh low quality source; 8th, 9th and 10th from Zionism's perspective; 11th low quality source.

And no, the Jews of 2,000 years ago are not the Jews of today. They are different genetically, culturally and linguistically in multiple ways. In fact, no ethnic group [whatever ethnic group even means] remains the same after 2 to 3 centuries. So yes, this would indeed be POV and ideological, mythological even, phrasing. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:58, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Consensus here is clearly against, an RFC could be opened, else drop it. Selfstudier (talk) 10:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

It is surprising to see people here deny the plain fact that there were Jewish states in this area in antiquity... The sentence simply states that the modern Zionist movement aimed to re-establish an independent Jewish state in a region where previous ones existed. Denying this is a denial of historical truth, regardless of whether contemporary Jews are closely related to those of antiquity (which genetic studies indicate they are). I will be adding this factual information shortly. O.maximov (talk) 10:42, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Agree that "establishment" is more in line with RS than "re-establishment", also it should be "establishment" "of a Jewish state in Palestine", rather than of "a homeland for the Jewish people". IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:01, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 July 2024

Change "Proponents of Zionism do not necessarily reject the characterization of Zionism as settler-colonial or exceptionalist." to "Some proponents of Zionism..."--the sources provided do not support the blanket statement and therefore indicate an ideological bias towards anti-Zionism that is not an accurate representation of discourse surrounding anti-Zionism and colonialism. 75.74.80.141 (talk) 19:25, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Use of term 'colonization' in opening sentence / definition

The inclusion of the word 'colonization' in the lead is being edit warred over [see here] and needs to be discussed.

- IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:59, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

This has been discussed to death here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Zionism#Colonial_project?

We eventually agreed on the use of "colonial", but did not reach a complete agreement on the terminology "colonial project".

Consensus is definitely to use "colonization" here. DMH223344 (talk) 21:28, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

If sometime in the future a peace agreement will be achieved in which the Israeli settlements in the west bank will be evacuated (like happened in Gaza in 2005) and the descendants of Palestinian refugees will come from abroad to live where the settlements were in Gaza and the West Bank, will you call this process "colonization"? Vegan416 (talk) 08:09, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTFORUM. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:16, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I disagree. This is a highly relevant question. We try to understand if the word colonization is the best word to use here. Comparing to analogies can help clarify the issue. Vegan416 (talk) 08:23, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

colonization seems an inappropriate term here, considering the Jewish people lived in the area no called Palestine/Israel for thousands of years before islamic Arabs made their way into the Levant. consider Judah and the ancient kingdom of Israel. a better term would be decolonization, since reclaiming of ones own historical homeland is not the same as colonization. Rozrozar (talk) 08:47, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

The repeated movement and rejection of this content clearly demonstrate the opposite, that there is no consensus for the usage of colonization, especially not in the first . If you believe otherwise, you must be defining consensus in a completely different manner, which has nothing to do with how Wikipedia defines it. Actually, it appears that most editors oppose the use of 'colonization' in this context, and we should adhere to WP:ONUS. 916crdshn (talk) 10:48, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

We can have an RFC on the question, since the matter is clearly supported in multiple scholarly sources, I expect that such an RFC will find in favor of including "colonization" in some form, regardless of whether some editors object on no grounds whatever, other than WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Otoh, if the issue is the wording/ where it goes in the article, then that can be discussed. Selfstudier (talk) 10:56, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, there is no consensus for this. Agree with the WP:ONUS. O.maximov (talk) 11:16, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Use of "Jewish homeland" vs "Jewish state"

RS describe zionism as seeking a "Jewish state", not just a "homeland":

Gorny: Almost all sectors of Zionism wanted a Jewish state in Palestine, whether they declared their intent or preferred to camouflage it, whether or not they perceived it as a political instrument, whether they saw sovereign independence as the prime aim, or accorded priority to the task of social construction.

Shapira: At the May 1942 Biltmore Conference in New York, the Zionists stated that their war aim was to establish “a Jewish Commonwealth” in Palestine—“commonwealth” being a synonym for an independent state.

Goldberg, to the promised land, describing Ben-Gurion: For Ben-Gurion, ‘the complete and absolute fulfilment of Zionism’ became identified and coeval with the achievement of statehood. also: Zionism in practice — meaning the state of Israel...

Penslar: The realization of Zionism, however, demanded more than the development of the state, because it was linked with a sense of mission to the diaspora.

Avineri: Zionism essentially always believed—perhaps with the exception of Jabotinsky and his disciples—that the establishment of the state would be only a necessary condition for Jewish renaissance, never a sufficient one.

Finkelstein: Zionism sought to establish a state that the Jewish people could claim fully as their own.

Righteous victims: A state was now—at last, publicly—what Zionism was all about.

We should replace "homeland" with "state" in the lead. DMH223344 (talk) 21:08, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Strong agree. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 21:49, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for making this change. But you also removed the comment "...in particular, a state with a Jewish demographic majority." RS typically describe the demographic majority as a necessary condition for a "Jewish State." Without this comment, it's not clear at all what is meant by "Jewish State." DMH223344 (talk) 22:13, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to restore that, I think it's fine either way. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 22:28, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 July 2024

Please change "through the colonization[4] of Palestine" to "through the decolonization of the Jewish historical homeland, colonized by islamic Arabs in the late 620's A.D. led by Muhammad"

Rozrozar (talk) 08:42, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

References