Property talk:P2781

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race time
officially recorded time elapsed in a sports race

Represents	duration (Q2199864)
Data type	Quantity
Domain	occurrence (Q1190554) (note: this should be moved to the property statements)
Allowed units	minute (Q7727) or second (Q11574)
Example	According to this template: ⟨ Brussels Cycling Classic (Q510854)    ⟩ general classification of race participants (P2321) ⟨ Tom Boonen (Q220998)    ⟩ ranking (P1352) ⟨ 1 ⟩ race time (P2781) ⟨ 16,510 second ⟩ According to statements in the property: 2015 Grand Prix de Fourmies (Q20872499) → 17,039 second When possible, data should only be stored as statements
Tracking: usage	Category:Pages using Wikidata property P2781 (Q98287655)
See also	time gap (P2911), ranking (P1352), event distance (P3157), time played (P9140)
Lists	Most recently created items Items with novalue claims Items with unknown value claims Usage history (total) Usage history (main statement) Chart by item creation date Minimum and maximum Items with highest numeric value Items with lowest numeric value User:Laboramus/Units/P2781 (Units used) Database reports/Complex constraint violations/P2781 Database reports/Constraint violations/P2781
Proposal discussion	Proposal discussion
Current uses	Total 28,751 Main statement 33 0.1% of uses Qualifier 28,716 99.9% of uses Reference 2 <0.1% of uses

[create Create a translatable help page (preferably in English) for this property to be included here]

Scope is as qualifier (Q54828449): the property must be used by specified way only (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P2781#Scope, SPARQL

Units: “minute (Q7727), second (Q11574)”: value unit must be one of listed. (Help)

Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist. Exceptions can be specified using exception to constraint (P2303).
List of violations of this constraint: Database reports/Constraint violations/P2781#Units

This property is being used by: ca:Plantilla:Infotaula esport Please notify projects that use this property before big changes (renaming, deletion, merge with another property, etc.)

Constraints

Units in qualifiers
The regular constraints check for units does not work with qualifier uses; this provides an alternative check which lists all qualifier uses where the unit used is not an instance of unit of time (Q1790144) or a subclass thereof. (Help)
Violations query: SELECT ?item ?p ?value ?qualifierValue ?qualifierUnit WHERE { ?item ?p [ ?ps ?value; pqv:P2781 [ wikibase:quantityAmount ?qualifierValue; wikibase:quantityUnit ?qualifierUnit ] ] . MINUS { ?qualifierUnit wdt:P31/wdt:P279* wd:Q1790144 . } }
List of this constraint violations: Database reports/Complex constraint violations/P2781#Units in qualifiers

Discussion

Deletion proposal

 Info There is an open deletion proposal for this property at the moment: Wikidata:Properties for deletion#race time (P2781). —MisterSynergy (talk) 10:48, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

 Info It was closed without deletion: Wikidata:Requests for deletions/Archive/2017/Properties/1#race time (P2781). —MisterSynergy (talk) 07:34, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Improve definition

• Right now this property is almost exclusively used as a qualifier as proposed by User:Lymantria in the property proposal discussion. I suggest to make it qualifier-only by a constraint rule and update the definition accordingly.
• It might be a good idea to expand the scope to subclasses of athlete (Q2066131) (via occupation (P106)) and sports organization (Q4438121) or sports team (Q12973014) (via instance of (P31)), as it is useful in those cases as well (e.g. in Christophe Lemaitre (Q274636)). The “occurrence (Q1190554)” type could be refined to sports competition (Q13406554) as far as I see.

—MisterSynergy (talk) 10:57, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

I will not lost time in explanation, this property is widely used on cycling (and on Wikipedias) and works with time gap. Even if we use it as a qualifier, we can perfectly use it as statement. We don't do this because on our infobox we don't take the race time for the moment, and if we do it, we can take the race time of the first of the general classification. Jérémy-Günther-Heinz Jähnick (talk) 12:10, 10 February 2017 (UTC) On another point, I don't understand why I wasn't notified when the procedure was launched. It is a problem. Jérémy-Günther-Heinz Jähnick (talk) 12:13, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

I understand how it is used in combination with time gap (P2911), and to my opinion it would suffice to use it for the time of the winner, as a qualifier as proposed and as mainly the case already now. As of now it is used as qualifier of these properties: record held (P1000), participant in (P1344), winner (P1346), Wikidata property example (P1855), general classification of race participants (P2321), stage classification (P2417), victory (P2522), and teams classification by time (P3497) (in total 1113 claims as far as I see).

At the same time, there are only four direct statements with the winner time in 2015 Grand Prix de Fourmies (Q20872499), 2014 Diamond Tour (Q24575332), 2015 Diamond Tour (Q24575522), and 2016 Diamond Tour (Q24575531). In three of these items the winner time is also stored as a qualifier, so this direct claim is redundant information. You won’t lose anything if we restrict this to qualifier use, but we could apply useful constraints to make sure that this property is in good form in the future. Regards, —MisterSynergy (talk) 12:52, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Another point: a direct claim would also be somewhat incorrect since the property is not called “winner race time”. The event is not completely over after the winner finished, there is also a competition for the full classification. Race time is always individual data which is not suitable for an entire event, as least as long as we don’t have “event items” such as “Usain Bolt’s 100 metre final at the 2016 Summer Olympics”. —MisterSynergy (talk) 12:59, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

@MisterSynergy: you forget the case of team time trial classifications where we have a race time (P2781) for each team, so there is not always a link with a winner.

To give more explanation about the difference with duration (P2047) (I have very few minutes today), during a stage race, the firsts of each stage generally receive bonifications (the contrary of penalities), few seconds, so the race time is different from the notion of duration (just a question of few seconds). Hard to explain in English. Jérémy-Günther-Heinz Jähnick (talk) 18:54, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

2015 Tour de France, stage 9 (Q19946564) is an item of a team trial stage (in spite of its P31 claim), it has winner (P1346) claims just as regular stage items have. You can use race time (P2781) there as well, of course, as qualifiers for teams. Bonifications should better be modeled differently, anyway. To my knowledge there is no property for bonifications or penalties right now, but I can imagine that something very similar to this property (also qualifier only) could be very useful.

Do you think it is useful to ask @Molarus as well? As far as I know he is interested in cycling sport and Wikidata as well. —MisterSynergy (talk) 19:18, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

@Jérémy-Günther-Heinz Jähnick: I have just now applied the changes to qualifier-only claims as proposed. This meant that I had to change four claims in four different items (transfer them to qualifiers), all other existing qualifier claims remain unchanged. There are no changes necessary to your templates, as far as I see. The time gap (P2911) property was already qualifier-only, but I also applied some property talk page changes over there. Best regards, —MisterSynergy (talk) 16:33, 13 February 2017 (UTC)