View source for Talk:Q5380480

== English Wikipedia link ==

Hello friends, please remove the English Wikipedia link as it points to the wrong thing altogether, in fact the Wikipedia article is about a piece of furniture rather than a place. I could not edit as this page is locked. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1700:280:CF40:115A:5DFD:D656:BE73|2600:1700:280:CF40:115A:5DFD:D656:BE73]] 17:20, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
: Done --[[User:TimK MSI|TimK MSI]] ([[User talk:TimK MSI|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 17:27, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

== Item proposed either for deletion or for merger into Q85661503 ==

This item lacks conceptual clarity and has been the source of confusion. For example, {{Q|18674739}} was recently merged into {{Q|5380480}} based on an incorrect label string reconciliation ([[Wikidata:Project chat/Archive/2023/12#Incorrect merge of a semi-protected item|details]]) - this unfortunate merger was undone ([http://Wikidata:Project_chat#Request_for_protection_for_Q18674739 details]). In order to prevent further confusion, I [[Wikidata:Requests for deletions#Q5380480|proposed the deletion of Q5380480]]. However, this item is still linked to several "Entertainment venues" categories (such as {{Q|7155494}}) that would become orphan if Q5380480 was deleted. I looked for a Wikidata item that could potentially act as a superclass for all the kinds of facilities (arenas, casinos, amusement parks, theatres, zoos, etc.) that are represented under these categories and I found {{Q|85661503}}. This item is linked to [https://www.getty.edu/vow/AATHierarchy?find=entertainment&logic=AND&note=&subjectid=300122263 aat:300122263 "recreation structures"], which is a parent concept for all the kinds of venues described in {{Q|7155494}}. The simplest solution would be to merge Q5380480 into Q85661503. Please weigh in before I proceed. {{ping project|Cultural venues}} [[User:Fjjulien|Fjjulien]] ([[User talk:Fjjulien|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 21:35, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
: The problem is that {{Q|Q18674739}} is not a subclass of building while {{Q|Q85661503}} is. So they're not the same. It may be that Q85661503 is a subclass of Q18674739.[[User:Vojtěch Dostál|Vojtěch Dostál]] ([[User talk:Vojtěch Dostál|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 09:05, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
::@[[User:Vojtěch Dostál|Vojtěch Dostál]] I am not proposing to merge {{Q|18674739}} into {{Q|85661503}}, but rather to merge {{Q|5380480}} (this item) into {{Q|85661503}}. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.
::Here's another attempt at clarifying the relationship between these three classes:
::* {{Q|18674739}} was the subject of multiple community discussions and we arrived at a consensus on a clear definition and on the situation of this concept in the Wikidata class hierarchy. This concept serves useful structural needs and should no longer be the subject of major edits. It is not the same as {{Q|85661503}}, although both classes could be considered a subclass of {{Q|17350442}} and they might also be deemed partially coincident with one another (i.e. some instances of "event venue" could also be deemed instance "recreational structure".
::* {{Q|85661503}} has a clearly definition that corresponds to the scope and class hierarchy [https://www.getty.edu/vow/AATFullDisplay?find=entertainment&logic=AND&note=&subjectid=300122263 aat:300122263 "recreation structures"]. 
::* {{Q|5380480}}, on the other hand, lacks a clearly defined scope: a user can't tell based on the current description whether an entity can be stated an instance or a subclass of Q5380480. The only defining criteria is an "entertainment" purpose - which is quite vague. The word "entertainment" may be interpreted by some users as referring only to passive/receptive leisure activities (e.g. movies, performing arts, spectator sports, etc.) and by others as also encompassing active recreational activities (e.g. dancing, bowling, skiing, golfing, swimming), heritage activities (e.g., art galleries, science museum), as well as other kinds of amusement activities (e.g. amusement parks, casinos). The list of venues categorized as "[[c:Category:Entertainment_venues_in_the_United_States|Entertainment venues in the United States]]" in Wikimedia Commons is indicative of a broad, inclusive understanding of the term "entertainment" (fairly consistent with what would be defined as "arts, entertainment and recreation" establishments in the [https://www23.statcan.gc.ca/imdb/p3VD.pl?Function=getVD&TVD=1369825&CVD=1369826&CPV=71&CST=27012022&CLV=1&MLV=5 North American Industry Classification System]).
::I am thus proposing to merge {{Q|5380480}} into {{Q|85661503}} and to define the resulting item as:
::* {{statement|Q85661503|P279|Q811979}} -- Rationale: Q811979 is the matching item to aat:300265418 "built work".
::* {{statement|Q85661503|P279|Q17350442}} -- Rationale: Statement carried over from {{Q|5380480}} ("event venue" is a very loosely defined concept, but it doesn't hurt to keep it).
::* Deprecate {{statement|Q85661503|P279|Q41176}} -- Rationale: This statement is inconsistent with the Art and Architecture Thesaurus and it can't be confirmed in any other source.
::* {{statement|Q85661503|P366|Q173799}} -- Rationale: consistent with the categories "Entertainment venues in ...".
::* Aliases: "entertainment center", "entertainment venue", "recreation venue"
::* Description: Further community consultation would be needed before adapting the description, but I would be favorable of making it explicitly inclusive of all infrastructures supporting leisure-time activities that are aligned with the scope of [http://www23.statcan.gc.ca/imdb/p3VD.pl?Function=getVD&TVD=1369825&CVD=1369848&CPV=711&CST=27012022&CLV=2&MLV=5 NAICS 711 "Performing arts, spectator sports and related industries"] and [http://www23.statcan.gc.ca/imdb/p3VD.pl?Function=getVD&TVD=1369825&CVD=1369848&CPV=713&CST=27012022&CLV=2&MLV=5 NAICS 713 "Amusement, gambling and recreation industries"].
::[[User:Fjjulien|Fjjulien]] ([[User talk:Fjjulien|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 16:24, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
:::Sorry for previous confusion. Generally, I don't really like merges of such high-level entities because they (and their subclasses) are used in {{property|P31}} on hundreds or thousands of items. And if there is slight difference in the definition, it leads to mistakes introduced into Wikidata. For example, Q85661503 is a building, and if you merge it with Q5380480 and deprecate the building class, you will end up with this item on many buildings, which creates confusion. In my view, this creates more problems than it solves. [[User:Vojtěch Dostál|Vojtěch Dostál]] ([[User talk:Vojtěch Dostál|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 08:47, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Vojtěch Dostál|Vojtěch Dostál]] Thanks for your feedback. I will wait until I further input is provided to proceed with the merger.
::::For clarity, {{Q|811979}} is a direct superclass to {{Q|41176}}. Therefore, my proposed change would not have any impact on P31 statements: any {{statement||P31|Q85661503}} statement remains TRUE whether {{statement|Q85661503|P279|Q41176}} or {{statement|Q85661503|P279|Q811979}}. [[User:Fjjulien|Fjjulien]] ([[User talk:Fjjulien|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 21:14, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::Completely agree with @[[User:Fjjulien|Fjjulien]]. It seems that no existing statements will become incorrect with this proposed merger. It's wise to think of what could possibly go wrong, but if we can't think of anything, I can only see the benefits of conceptual clarity after this merger. [[User:Beireke1|Beireke1]] ([[User talk:Beireke1|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 15:45, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
:@[[User:Hannahtsas|Hannahtsas]] @[[User:Romaine|Romaine]] @[[User:PKM|PKM]] @[[User:Gerd_Fahrenhorst|Gerd Fahrenhorst]] This proposed merger of an item into {{Q|85661503}} may be of interest to you. [[User:Fjjulien|Fjjulien]] ([[User talk:Fjjulien|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 16:31, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
::I agree that the use of [[Q5380480|entertainment centre (Q5380480)]] as a major venue class is semantically vague – especially considering that in North American English, its more commonly used homonym [[Q5380479|entertainment center (Q5380479)]] refers to a shelving unit for home electronics. Adding entertainment centre in the Q5380480 sense as an alias of [[Q85661503|recreation structure (Q85661503)]] would lead to more robust modelling in Wikidata. [[User:Dlh28|Dlh28]] ([[User talk:Dlh28|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 19:52, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
:::Further to feedback from the WikiProject Performing arts community, I examined the category structure in Wikimedia Commons to determine if any category that have "entertainment center" as a topic would be conceptually inaccurate after the merger. Here are my observations:
:::* This "entertainment center" Wikidata concept is only linked to national instances of combined categories, such as [[c:Category:Entertainment_venues_by_country|Entertainment venues in the Czech Republic]].
:::* "entertainment center" is stated a facet of {{Q|6770467}}: 
:::** In other words, {{statement|Q6770467|P971|Q5380480}}
:::*** The reference for this statement is en.wikipedia. However, I searched Wikipedia, and it does not include a "categogy:Entertainment center". I therefore deprecated this statement.
:::* Some national instances of 
:::* The category hierarchy for "entertainment venue" is:
:::** [[c:Category:Buildings_by_function|Category:Buildings by function]] → {{Q|811102}}
:::*** [[c:Category:Venues|Category:Venues]] → {{Q|17350442}}
:::**** '''[[c:Category:Entertainment_venues|Category:Entertainment venues]]''' → {{Q|6770467}}
:::- Not all sub-categories for [[c:Category:Entertainment_venues|Category:Entertainment venues]] are subclasses of buildings : [[c:Category:Adventure_parks|Category:Adventure_parks]], [[c:Category:Amusement_parks|Category:Amusement_parks]], and [[c:Category:Playgrounds|Category:Playgrounds]] are rather human-built structures (or facilities).
:::- [[c:Category:Entertainment_venues|Category:Entertainment venues]] is a sub-category to [[c:Category:Facilities_by_type|Category:Facilities by type]].
:::* Now, here's the combined category hierarchy : 
:::** [[c:Category:Buildings_by_function_by_country|Category:Buildings by function by country]] → {{Q|25319674}}
:::*** '''[[c:Category:Entertainment_venues|Category:Entertainment venues by country]]''' → {{Q|6852343}}
:::- Both categories in this combined category structure are meant to encompass buildings as well as other kinds structures.
:::Based on the above observation this "entertainment center" Wikidata does not serve any structural function in the Wikimedia Commons category structure that the [[c:Category:Entertainment_venues|Category:Entertainment venues]] can't serve. As a matter of fact, merging Q5380480 into {{Q|6770467}} would make the Wikimedia Commons structure more consistent. Consequently, I would like to change my initial recommendation: '''I would now like to propose the merger of Q5380480 into {{Q|6770467}}'''. [[User:Fjjulien|Fjjulien]] ([[User talk:Fjjulien|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 16:34, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
::::Target is a category, merge undone. {{ping|Kolja21}} fyi [[User:ISNIplus|ISNIplus]] ([[User talk:ISNIplus|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 02:48, 3 September 2024 (UTC)