Talk:ASD Viareggio Calcio

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Circular-referencing

Yet, it seem "Viareggio 2014" use it-wiki content in the official club history. http://www.viareggio2014.it/storia/ . Matthew_hk tc 09:53, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

split?

Since F.C. Esperia Viareggio apparently won a partial appeal and survived in the lowest division Terza Categoria from 2014 to 2017, thus overlapping with its legit phoenix club S.S.D. Viareggio 2014. Should it be more appropriate to split the article? Matthew_hk tc 04:07, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Same reason. In 2005–06 season seen there is co-exist of Viareggio Calcio (or under new name) owned by Fanciullacci and Esperia Viareggio owned by Lippi. it seem the latter did not owned the assets of the old club, thus splitting is better to fix this complex lineage that was reported in newspaper. Matthew_hk tc 10:43, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Proposal

• The content of Viareggio Calcio, A.C. Viareggio and "F.C. Esperia Viareggio" → F.C. Esperia Viareggio

Reason: the club was excluded from the professional league in 2014, but continued to play until circa 2017, which differ from "S.S.D. Viareggio 2014".

The 2003 exclusion of A.C. Viareggio, despite the assets was not acquired by Esperia Viareggio, apparently it was the only team that was admitted into the amateur league using article 52 of N.O.I.F. (need source to cite it really using the article). No source to support the fate of the another successor which was owned by Fanciullacci.

• The content of "S.S.D. Viareggio 2014" → S.S.D. Viareggio 2014

reason: despite using the article 52 of N.O.I.F. as legitimate successor and start in Eccellenza Tuscany instead of lowest level Terza Categoria, the old club "Esperia Viareggio" did not folded concurrent with the foundation of "Viareggio 2014", thus better split it.

--Matthew_hk tc 11:47, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Well if they original club played for three more years in the lowest divisions, is that really a problem that forces a split? It's a one-liner of text that can be added here. -Koppapa (talk) 16:35, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

So, for how long of a overlap should be qualify a split? How about overlapping in the same division in the same season? I know in MK Dons case, it was notable that the club renounce its history and the relocation has its own article, but would it be more appropriate to have some criteria on merging everything and split everything? Matthew_hk tc 04:54, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

First and foremost it depends on sources. Does Italian media consider it the same club today or as a new team? Does national media care at all? I don't know how much attention Seria D has at all. -Koppapa (talk) 07:00, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Then Italian source never consider Viareggio 2014 and Esperia Viareggio as a same team, but only a continuation. Matthew_hk tc 07:03, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

A.C. Viareggio and Viareggio Calcio

Is A.C. Viareggio and Viareggio Calcio are the same club, which was replaced by F.C. Esperia Viareggio? According to it:Eccellenza Toscana 2003-2004 article of it-wiki, there is a "A.C. Viareggio" in that division in that season, but is that actually "Esperia Viareggio" that was stated in il Tirreno, or a unrelated namesake? Certainly "A.C. Viareggio" exited before 2003 Matthew_hk tc 10:28, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Fixed, seem typo in it-wiki. Matthew_hk tc 04:02, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Since not all comunicto ufficiale were archived in wayback machine (only the last page of the index apparently https://web.archive.org/web/20080816004518/http://www.figc-crt.org:80/comunicati_ufficiali/index.php?act=category&id=55), thus unable to locate the alleged C.U. №6 of 2003–04 season of C.R. Toscana, which was used as a citation in it-wiki. Matthew_hk tc 11:15, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

So far did not dig out the actual citation for "art .52 " for 2003 foundation. Matthew_hk tc 04:02, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

And too bad the earliest RSSSF entry was this one. http://www.rsssf.com/tablesi/ital6-06.html Matthew_hk tc 11:20, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

According to RAI, it seem the team that was bankrupted in 2003 is A.C. Viareggio . So, new problem was the official name of the club is actually A.C. Viareggio (which C stand for Calcio), or without the "A" (A in Associazione Calcio). Matthew_hk tc 11:37, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

fixed with FIGC citation. Matthew_hk tc 04:03, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

So: the current club is the follow-up of the one previously known as Esperia Viareggio, who in turn was the continuity club of AC Viareggio (bankrupt in 2003). Hope that makes it clear. There is no reason to split the article, due to that, and in fact the one and only "Viareggio" club you can presently find about is this one. --Angelo (talk) 01:19, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

@Angelo.romano:, The refoundation and dissolve of Viareggio Calcio, A.S. Viareggio Calcio, A.C. Viareggio and FC Esperia Viareggio were apparently on the same year. i.e. they did not overlap, so did Calcio Como and Como 1907 (FC Como is a minor issue), Parma AC, Parma FC and Parma Calcio.

However, in Viareggio 2014 and Esperia Viareggio case, Esperia Viareggio withdrew from the league in year 2017 but "Viareggio 2014" was founded in year 2014. Matthew_hk tc 03:45, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

References

That's not unusual in Italian football in fact. I can at least recall the same happening with Salernitana restarting from Terza Categoria for a season or two while Salerno Calcio (which is the current Salernitana club playing in Serie B) were admitted to Serie D. So I would always follow the same pattern we normally do for Italian clubs, that is, one article per club, regardless of whether they are 'formally' the same or not (that applies to very few clubs in Italy, if we weren't doing that, we would have a Wikipedia mess today as some clubs have been refounded four or five times in fact). --Angelo (talk) 00:56, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Yes it is not unusual for phoenix club was re-founded via "art.52" and/or acquiring assets. Which in that case may be easier to solve as their is only one successor with or without some overlap. However, for some club that no even acquiring assets and merely renaming and claiming as successor, and/or multiple club to do so, it would be a mess to keep the "related" cousin club in one article. Matthew_hk tc 05:39, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

And since File:FC Esperia Viareggio logo.png was nominated for deletion, it seem a stand-alone article for the dissolved legal person F.C. Esperia Viareggio would qualify to use the NFC logo of Esperia Viareggio (and potentially A.C. Viareggio), but not an article of the four (or more) clubs FC Esperia Viareggio, Viareggio Calcio, A.C. Viareggio and Viareggio 2014. Matthew_hk tc 05:46, 6 September 2018 (UTC)