Talk:New Zealand English

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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Nquindem, Melodynanfito. Peer reviewers: Jason Hall UA.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 05:14, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Vocabulary section is very poor

The section contains a large number of unreferenced and/or incorrect claims regarding vocabulary, e.g. that 'ice block' has been borrowed from American English, or that 'dunny' originated in New Zealand.

Frankly, the section is a mess and needs a serious clean-up. I'd suggest a list of common differences from both British and American English, as is found in the article on Australian English as a way of neatly summarising lexical differences. A list summarising direct borrowings from American and Australian English, in the same format, may also be useful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.219.29.86 (talk) 22:57, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Removal of ‘prawn’ from ‘Differences from Australian English’

Prawn is a term for edible shrimp in Australia and New Zealand. Smaller ones are also called shrimp in Australia and prawns as in prawn cocktail or prawn skewer are called prawns in New Zealand too. Written by an Aussie. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.229.148.166 (talk) 00:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Colloquialisms expansion

Useful starting thread for expanding on Kiwi slang: [1]  Nixinova   T   C   21:22, 22 April 2021 (UTC) [2] 01:20, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

I would be happy to get broad agreement that we limit the kiwiana section to one paragraph and a list of no more than ten words. That would go a long way to removing this endlessly pointless playing around with expressions, edit wars and other tinkering edits. None of it is in the least bit productive or encyclopedic. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 01:50, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Cleaning up New Zealandisms

The entire sections needs a clean up with a lot of the section needs citing, however this will focus on particular words. For reference the section New Zealandisms specifies that New Zealand has it's own unique words and phrases derived entirely in New Zealand.

Removal

• and that (phrase) - Should be removed because even within it's own example it states that it's used in the UK
• Barbie (noun) - Should be removed because even within it's own example it states that it's borrowed from Australia
• G'Day (greeting) - Should be removed because even within it's own example it states that it's borrowed from Australia
• Dag - the wikipedia page on dag can summarize this better, but it originated in usage from the UK, and the current usage is shared between Australia and New Zealand.
• Heaps - Used in multiple other dialects of English including British English. Kaplan International Languages lists it as Australian english in the same usage, and the usage relates to the british usage to mean a lot of something as noted in the Oxford Learners dictionary and Cambridge Dictionary.
• jug (noun) - used in Australian English as electric jugs were originally made in both Australia and New Zealand both language dialects use the term jug to mean electric kettles today because of this as shown in Australian usage in this Sydney Morning Herald article.
• slab (noun) - used in Australian English, notable is that this is mentioned in the Beer in Australia page, also uncited. Macquarie dictionary has a page defining it as such. Of note is that I can't find reference to a slab of beer in the New Zealand context, though this was only a cursory search. However, what may pause this is that the unsourced addition mentions a 12 pack is also referred to as a slab, though I can not find any example of this being used in New Zealand or Australia.
• togs (noun) - used in Australian English, the BBC has an article exploring the origin, indicating that it's use for swim wear is of shared origin rather than derived in New Zealand.

I'm proposing to remove these entries, however an alternate solution could be to change the section from New Zealandisms to a broader section on words and phrases used in New Zealand, though such a section would likely become exceedingly large. In either case the remaining entries will also need sourcing as it seems improper to have a section that is in large part unsourced, especially as anyone could add very small regional or generational slang with little challenge. Gladfire (talk) 06:37, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I would suggest you don't remove things wholesale. The article could do with cleaning up and would benefit from additional citations. However, rather than removing things that are not uniquely New Zealand English, it may well be better to move to the sections concerning external influence eg move "Barbie (noun)" to the section on Australian English. WCM_email 07:42, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Might be a good idea, though that section is arguably even worse than New Zealandisms in regards to it's quality and layout. Additionally for some of these words like jug for an electric kettle, it's not clear whether usage started in Australia or New Zealand so being under Australian English Influences might be inappropriate. It could be worth removing the Australian English Influences entirely and replacing it with something similar to the Difference from Australian English table that's labeled something along the lines of Terms Shared with Australian English, though that may be worth it's own talk page section? Gladfire (talk) 08:27, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

It does need some better sourcing, do you have sources in mind to use as the basis of a clean up? It would be better to derive a suggestion for a layout based on how this is treated in academic sources. WCM_email 08:48, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm not even sure where to look because a lot of this is slang and/or brand names so reliable linguistic sources are unlikely to have them, leaving a jumble of sources that may not be appropriate. Even the Macquarie Dictionary source I listed, I realized after the fact, may actually be a page that registered users can add to, so it's not exactly a valid source to put on the page, though does show usage for the purpose of a talk page. This is part of the reason I proposed removal of the entries that I did, as I could point out were entirely or partially false rather than all unsourced entries. Gladfire (talk) 09:09, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I definitely don't think that those entries should be removed - many of them are still kiwi slang or have significance in NZ, even if they're not exclusively kiwi. This is especially true for many of the ones that are borrowed from Australian English - if we don't have it in the NZ English article because it's used in Australian English, and we don't have it in the Australian English article because it's used in NZ English, then where would you propose those words be covered? We don't have an article on Antipodean English. Turnagra (talk) 09:12, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I tend to agree. You are assuming, Gladfire, that a New Zealandism must have originated in NZ, which I do not think is correct. I have steered clear of this article for a long time because it is one of those articles that is difficult to create and to edit succinctly with proper sources. Consequently we get a somewhat disorganised collection of words and phrases that more closely reflects people's personal views than what sourses say. I think the whole article could do with a clean-up. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 09:45, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

It's not really an assumption, it's following what is stated in the establishing sentence of the section. "In addition to word and phrase borrowings from Australian, British and American English, New Zealand has its own unique words and phrases derived entirely in New Zealand, many of which are slang terms". It separates out words and phrases that are borrowed from other dialects. Having it not be this would also kind of invalidate the two previous sections or lead to re-stated information. At this stage after the comment chain with Wee Curry Monster, I'm leaning towards removing the UK derived one entirely, moving the Australian derived or shared entries to Australian influences as a preliminary action, before opening a separate talk section on potentially reworking the entire vocabulary section. Gladfire (talk) 10:07, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm entirely open to the restructuring suggested but it need to be done systematically and guided by reliable sources. Linguists do consider slang phrases in studying language so this should be possible to source. In British English, I'd look to experts such as Susie Dent (she is a TV personality and well known linguist) but not so certain on who I could cite as an expert on NZ English. I did a google search, which turned up a couple of sources that might be suitable [3]. These are available readily on Amazon eg [4] and appears to be available in libraries [5]. WCM_email 12:10, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I also tend to agree with what Roger 8 Roger and Turnagra have stated here: I don't agree that a New Zealandism has to originate in New Zealand. It might be worth expanding the scope of the article to New Zealand slang or something similar. --Spekkios (talk) 02:07, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Kūmara and macrons

@Roger 8 Roger: here are 35 different sources in NZ English which use Kūmara with a macron. Please stop your vexatious and disruptive editing over macrons, and accept that NZ English uses them.

[6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40]

Turnagra (talk) 09:45, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Illogicality

Turnagra, I will try to keep this simple. If the spelling of kumara in English has a macron then reference it with an English language source, such as an English language dictionary, not a maori language dictionary. I have questioned the source used, not the spelling itself. The correct source I replaced it with, an English language dictionary, spells kumara without a macron. It does not even say that the maori word, with a macron, is often used in NZE as a foreign word. If you want the macron put back you need to find a proper source. In fact, now that I have provided a source that shows no macron is used you need to provide more than one source that says a macron is used, to establish weight. And no, we have not establish that NZE uses macrons. The issue has been fudged, disputed (not just by me) and analyzed incorrectly for a long time. Your illogical reversal here is simply more proof that you are analyzing the issue incorrectly - incorrect analysis leads to illogical conclusions. But pls consider this is about the source not the spelling. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 09:49, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

See the 35 references I posted above. Turnagra (talk) 09:49, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Quick follow on reply - your post above crossed with mine, and you seem to have provided the weighting I mentioned although I have yet to view your 35 sources. A note of admiration by me that you can drum up 35 refs in such a short time. Now, I will look at them. And please, refrain from using such words as vexatious - it does your case no favours. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 09:55, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I can see those sources of yours. I suggest you use a couple of those sources to reference the macron spelling, not a maori language dictionary. Remember, I have said all along this is about the source, not the spelling. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 10:01, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm baffled. "Kūmara is a Māori word. Using it in English text won't change that. So why are you objecting to using a Māori dictionary as a reference for its spelling when you also say that's fine for Māori words? The Crab Who Played With The Sea (talk) 11:09, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

The word is a borrowed word from Maori. It is no different from countless other words such as cafe, trait, chow, chalet, kindergarten. The issue is the level of integration into English that has occurred. That level of integration will determine its spelling and the more specific name we call it ('borrowed word' covers a wide range). With a low level of integration the term foreign word is often used because there is little adaptation of the word to fit better into English, such as keeping awkward spellings (for English speakers) or diacritics (which with are not a standard part of English). With a high degree of integration a borrowed word will be described by terms such as 'an English word of foreign origin', eg 'spectrum'. Integration of a borrowed word usually happens over time, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly. The word kumara was borrowed many decades ago and has undergone a high level of integration, in my view to a level where it is better described as an English word of Maori/foreign origin than as a foreign word. Therefore, to add a macron now, and to call it a Maori word, is going backwards from the normal integration path a borrowed word takes. You insist the word kumara is a Maori word: I say it is an English word of Maori origin. Taking your view, we should add a macron: taking my view then no, a macron should not be used. There is no easy right or wrong here, it comes down to interpretation and opinion. Ponder that when you next sit sipping lager in the beer garden, oops, I mean biergarden, or is it biergarten, or maybe biergärten? A complication in NZ is that the Maori words are easily pronounced and spelt by English speakers so there has not been much spelling adaptation, which gives an impression that the word is still a foreign word, sometimes spelt slightly wrong, eg lacking a macron. A bigger complication is the political agenda being followed that is driving much of this debate and is giving the wrong impression that the recent spelling reversals are a natural progression. If we are going to use macrons in wikipedia it should be a decision reached based on the above, not on whether the correct spelling is kumara or Kūmara - both spellings are correct in different contexts. We first need to establish the context. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 21:10, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Frankly, it seems a bit naïve to say that English doesn't use diacritics. It's a point that's been whacked around like a papier-mâché piñata so much that I'm starting to think that your claim to be open to changing on this issue is just a façade. I do tire of having to constantly go on about this, I'd far rather sit down in a café for an éclair and a frappé, or maybe a nice rosé. Some sautéd Jalapeño poppers are always a good choice too, especially if it's à la carte. My willingness to engage is only made worse by the föhn wind and La Niña which we've got at the moment.

I'm being facetious of course, but in all seriousness I do tire of this argument. The only source to date which you've provided to back up your claims about macron usage in NZ English has been an overtly conspiratorial magazine, and you seem to be the only one with this issue. At a certain point you need to let it go. Turnagra (talk) 21:26, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Good one! Made me smile. The only thing I can add is that "biergärten" is wrong, as it's the plural of "biergarten". Schwede66 22:10, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

That level of integration will determine its spelling Time to present your hard evidence about the differing levels of integration of kūmara and whānau (which is present in that form in the exact same section), or let the kūmara spelling be. The Crab Who Played With The Sea (talk) 02:16, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Turnagra, nothing in your post contradicts what I said. All you have done is throw in a host of borrowed words and used them in their mildly integrated form, ie keeping their diacritics. They could all just as easily, and more commonly, be written in their more assimilated form, ie without diacritics. Naive is different - the umlaut is a pronunciation aid to what otherwise would be a confusing combination of vowels - no different from writing re-enter instead of reenter. If you want to counter my argument then counter what I don't say, but that might not gather S many sniggers. I never said biergärten was singular: it was there to illustrate the use of a diacritic - the singular without the umlaut had already been written. Back to the original point, kumara is an English word because it is used in English, that is why it is in an English dictionary. The word Vater is not an English word because it is not used in Englsh, so it is not in an English dictionary. Simple really? So, to reference its spelling use an English dictionary. If it isn't in an English dictionary it isn't an English word, so it should not be used in written English without there being a good reason for doing so.