Talk:Anti-Defamation League

New antisemitism

@Bobfrombrockley: Nothing wrong with the current wording, which summarizes the criticism, and that is what a lede does. A possible compromise would be something along the lines of: "The ADL has consistently argued that anti-Zionism is a form of new antisemitism, a position which was criticized by some as a conflation of the two."Makeandtoss (talk) 13:03, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

What would be the source for that, because the only source cited in the relevant section of the body saying anything like that is Finkelstein and citing such a fringe view in the lead would be bizarre. This is undue. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:02, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

It is due however that ADL argues the anti-Zionism is a form of new antisemitism. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:16, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Who says Finkelstein, a subject-matter expert here, is fringe? Iskandar323 (talk) 14:48, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

He is at best controversial and his views should not be cited without attribution. We use him perfectly well in the body, but he is the only source in the body for this particular claim, ergo it should not be in the lead in our voice. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:56, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

On the page, the term is also critiqued by Edward S. Shapiro, and a less notable columnist, so this does not stand in isolation, and this is surely but a sampling of the criticisms. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:35, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Shapiro doesn’t use the term “anti-Zionism” and does not associate the new antisemitism with the ADL. He’s talking very specifically about the 1972 book (on the previous page he mentioned the authors were officials of the ADL, but he’s nit attributing the position to the ADL). The body describes his views accurately. The current sentence in the lead doesn’t. BobFromBrockley (talk) 00:11, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Makeandtoss you should revert yourself Special:MobileDiff/1174592526 until you get consensus per WP:ONUS. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:53, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Consensus was established as this has been on the article for several weeks now. Your objection does not mean consensus is non-existent, it means there's more work to do, and that is what we are doing here. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:56, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

The current version is brand new wording. Your last version, calling the concept the ADL’s, was factually incorrect. You added the earliest version of this in July, I think, which was immediately followed by the talk page section above, “Controversies”, questioning that version. As far as I can see literally no other editor has argued in support of you. Reverting everyone else’s edits is not consensus; you need to make the argument and get support. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:12, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Iskandar does not seem to mind the current version. My latest version was amended and now it's no longer "factually incorrect". I made my argument and proposed two compromises. The ball is in your court. It could be that the criticism is undue, but the fact that ADL says anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism certainly isn't. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:27, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

I have spoken to a different point; I haven't spoken to any particular wording, per se. The necessary discussion here appears to first and foremost be one of weight. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:40, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

I don’t oppose makeandtoss edit but they should add more sources as people might call it fringe and remove it otherwise. On the dispute of it being up I think it should be in the wiki page if it’s opposed in being in the lead as this could be used to remove it entirely which I oppose Bobisland (talk) 19:34, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

I have no objection to this being in the article. My issue, as Iskandar says, is weight. I don’t think it belongs in the lead. BobFromBrockley (talk) 00:08, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

How is Norman not considered a reliable source? Bobisland (talk) 19:36, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

“Norman” is a very controversial, polarising, partisan source. We note his opinions in the body (with attribution) because he’s noteworthy: we don’t use him as a source for facts so reliability isn’t an issue. My issue is whether his opinions can be expressed in the lead in wiki voice without attribution and whether he’s noteworthy enough to be in the lead. BobFromBrockley (talk) 00:15, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

If our wording is to be “ The ADL's support of the New Antisemitism idea has generated controversy” then don’t we need an independent secondary source saying this, rather than a single example of a critic? And if we say “some” have described it as conflating antisemitism with anti-Zionism, then we need more than one examples, who should all be notable. At the moment, we have a single primary source, which doesn’t make it due in the lead. BobFromBrockley (talk) 00:07, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

How is it a primary source? Isn’t he separate from the ADL? Bobisland (talk) 01:48, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

He's a primary source for his own opinion that the new antisemitism conflates antisemitism and anti-Zionism. We currently say "some have described it" as such, but only have this single primary source showing that. Better to use secondary sources to avoid OR. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:42, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

The text partly paraphrases the end of the Britannica article,[1], but Britannica calls Finkelstein a pro-Palestinian activist and does not mention the new antisemitism. Are other neutral third-party sources available about the matter? Llll5032 (talk) 03:29, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

• I don't know why all the people complaining about sourcing here didn't bother to do a quick google scholar search:

  In the United States, one the strongest promoters of various installments of the ‘new antisemitism’ thesis has been the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) which in 1974 published a book entitled The New Anti-Semitism.

  The ADL responded to these critiques as they came, but also in a cohesive way through a new book by Forster and Epstein titled The New Anti-Semitism, which would be their most important and best-selling publication.98 Like their previous books, The New Anti-Semitism stitched together a list of types of antisemitic threats, which had grown in length. In contrast to prior books focused on the far right and Arab propagandists, The New Anti-Semitism included the right-wing threat alongside threats that emanated from "The USSR, Western Europe, Latin America," and included "the Radical Left," "Arabs and Pro-Arabs," and Black Americans. Taken collectively, this bundle of threats, taken to include anti-Zionism, has been called the "New Anti-Semitism" from the book's publication onwards.

  I think inventing a prominent and controversial concept, and being a chief promoter of it, is worthy for mention in the lead. (t · c) buidhe 04:22, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

I've replaced the third-party source tag in the lead with these. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:09, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

I made some edits to that new language. For the last phrase, "the latter's inclusion has been the subject of critique", we need a third-party RS that describes critique of the ADL (per MOS:LEADREL) for including anti-Zionism in the new antisemitism. The Finkelstein book is too controversial to be the source. Llll5032 (talk) 20:15, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

References

Position on WW II US Japanese Internment camps

See Item 1 here:

https://irmep.com/2016/06/adls-challenge-to-pro-peace-justice-groups/

It also links to this document:

https://www.israellobby.org/ADL/1199215-000---100-HQ-530---Section5.PDF

Add to Controversies section? M.mk (talk) 00:58, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Information in the article needs to be cited to a high-quality third-party reliable source, such as a peer-reviewed academic journal, rather than self-published websites. Some acceptable sources are described in WP:SOURCETYPES and WP:RSP. Llll5032 (talk) 06:02, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I edited the heading per WP:TALKHEADPOV. Llll5032 (talk) 18:49, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 November 2023

Remove the line, " historians today generally consider Frank to have been innocent" from the Origins section of this article. The source (ref. 25) for whether or not historians think a Jewish man is innocent or guilty cannot be a special interest group (Jewish) stating it to be the case with no sourcing of their own to back it up. It is the equivalent of me claiming the moon isn't real because some anti-moon non profit baselessly made the claim. 73.164.131.155 (talk) 21:36, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. --AntiDionysius (talk) 21:41, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Add #BanTheADL or #BankruptTheADL campaing

Since is talked in the article about the #DropTheADL campaign started by progressive forces, we should also talk about the campaign started by the right. 186.32.216.85 (talk) 16:25, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

If you have the corresponding reliable sources, go ahead. ComradeHektor (talk) 05:39, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

First sentence: "… that specializes in civil rights law…"

The first thing we say about this organization is that it specializes in civil rights law – this makes it sound like a human rights organization. Yet our article quotes progressive groups who criticize it for "attacking social justice movements led by communities of color, queer people, immigrants, Muslims, Arabs, and other marginalized groups, while aligning itself with police, right-wing leaders, and perpetrators of state violence," and it has been characterized as an "anti-Muslim and anti-Palestinian outfit."

I propose rather than taking a particular POV in the first paragraph, the first sentence should simply state and in-line attribute the organization's stated mission to "to stop the defamation of the Jewish people and to secure justice and fair treatment to all". Onceinawhile (talk) 00:37, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I reverted because descriptions emphasized by the best available third-party sources are preferred over WP:MISSION statements. Llll5032 (talk) 00:02, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

@Llll5032: OK, but we must not cherry pick the sources we use. It is clear that this organization is not interested in the civil rights of ALL of society, and appears to actively attack a number of marginalized groups. The current wording in the first paragraph of the lede is thus misleading and needs balance. Onceinawhile (talk) 00:43, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

The sources should be WP:BESTSOURCES. High-quality reference books including almanacs and textbooks that describe the group in totality are preferred, and yes, without cherrypicking but rather emphasizing what they emphasize. Llll5032 (talk) 00:50, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Please take a step out of the progressive POV bubble -- the sources you go to make such an outlandish and frankly, ridiculous, claim as "It is clear that this organization is not interested in the civil rights of ALL of society" are blatantly biased and very POV (and Martin Luther King Jr might disagree with you). For the first sentence, perhaps let's not look to an opinion piece in the left-wing Nation. Let's follow your own advice and not cherry pick the sources we use. Longhornsg (talk) 22:55, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

It's a bit of a whitewash, yes. What the ADL is actually best known for is its scurrilous accusations of antisemitism, and as a particularly aggressive "Jewish defense organisation" - a real beast of the 20th century - and an integral arm of the pro-Israeli lobby in the US that works to tamp out criticism of Israel in its infancy by means of its scurrilous accusations of antisemitism.

Like Carter, Mearsheimer and Walt have faced ugly and unsubstantiated allegations of racism for drawing attention to the imbalance in US Middle East policy and the lobby's clout. Walt's Harvard colleague Alan Dershowitz labeled them "bigots" and "liars," and the Anti-Defamation League accused them of promulgating "a classical conspiratorial anti-Semitic analysis invoking the canards of Jewish power and Jewish control." Reams of angry newsprint later, these kneejerk cries of anti-Semitism have not registered, and for good reason. Plainly, a lobby that is universally recognized by Washington insiders---and even promotes itself---as one of the few most powerful in the country is influential. Saying so cannot be inherently anti-Semitic. The Israel Lobby" in Perspective

The Jewish and pro-Israeli forces have established strong support networks over many years through communal, faith-based, Zionist, and Jewish-defense organizations including the American Jewish Committee, the Jewish Federations of North America, the Anti-Defamation League ... Targeting Free Speech & Redefining Antisemitism. P.624

“There exists today a veritable cottage industry of organizations dedicating significant efforts to promoting the IHRA definition as a legally-mandated litmus test, designed to delegitimize if not criminalize criticism and activism on Israel, and especially boycotts. These include the Anti-Defamation League ... Targeting Free Speech & Redefining Antisemitism. P.640 Iskandar323 (talk) 05:57, 27 November 2023 (UTC)