Talk:Chris Brown

Proposed addition to first sentence/description

I propose the following alteration:

  'Christopher Maurice Brown (born May 5, 1989) is an American singer, songwriter, rapper, dancer, actor and family violence perpetrator.

A lot of people know Chris Brown as a result of his assaulting Rihanna. Further, in the case of individuals such as Harvey Weinstein, the description refers both to their profession and to their offending. It seems to me the same should be done here. To do otherwise may be to downplay the significance of Brown's offending. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.200.5.228 (talk) 07:22, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

😂😂😂 Are you seriois rn? You can't conceal your hatred, huh? Joszy6 (talk) 07:25, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Michael Jackson comparisons?

The first paragraph of the article claims “[he has drawn] wide comparisons to Michael Jackson for his stage presence.”

The stated source is just a small hip-hop news website that makes the same claim with no source - maybe it’s anecdotal, but I’ve never heard anyone compare Chris Brown to Michael Jackson, in any regard

Seems inaccurate to me, unless more sources can be found making this claim I think it should be removed 2601:2C7:4400:2670:FCD4:AE7A:FA20:E0F7 (talk) 02:14, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Needs to be backed up

with something more concrete. Peacekeepurwar (talk) 03:45, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, calling them "wide" comparisons is typical POV bragging too. Certainly weasel words. 2A02:C7D:4894:5500:F905:AC11:EBD8:BE4A (talk) 22:47, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Exactly this. "Article" doesnt even mention mj widely... 24.187.7.253 (talk) 13:27, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

"but I’ve never heard anyone compare Chris Brown to Michael Jackson, in any regard"

To be fair that is a matter of personal opinion or experience then and sometimes personal opinions do not reflect reality if someone is not too familiar with a given topic or artist. He has been widely compared to Michael Jackson so the excerpt is not wrong per se. But I agree that the reference in the article to support this claim is not a good one. Nevertheless this comparisons has even been made by Michael's own family members including his father Joe Jackson, brother Jermaine Jackson, sister Latoya Jackson and children Paris and Prince Jackson. As well as promiment producers such as Teddy Riley and Baby Face who worked extensively with Michael.

Also this comparison is made quite frequently. For example just this month (Sep/2023) Hip Hop legend 50 cent made the comparison as well and there was overwhelming support by other industry peers in response to his post. There were multiple articles published on it as well, here is one of them - https://www.complex.com/music/a/cmplxtara-mahadevan/50-cent-compares-chris-brown-michael-jackson . Ironically the comparison made by 50 Cent this month was happening while there was a back and forth on this talk page discussion. A simple google search could cleared up the confusion about the comparison exisiting. Similarly John Branca, the co-excutor, of the MJ estate made this comparison as well when Brown was picked to do an AMA tribute for the Thriller album anniversary. The tribute was cancelled but wide comparisons came up in light of it again.

To clear up any confusion, I have removed the old reference (added by another editor) in place of several new references (15 to 28) to support the excerpt. Some of these referenced articles state the comparison directly in the title, while others state and/or allude to it in the body of the articles. I will add more references if needed and as time permits. Thanks. Instantwatym (talk) 15:03, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

FREE-UP BREEZY'S PAGE NOW!!! 😡

"FREE UP CHRIS'S PAGE NOW!" How come a mega star like Beyoncé, her page is free to edit? But yet a lesser star like Chris Brown, his page is held up in page-jail lockdown? Once agen i say, "FREE UP BREEZY'S PAGE NOW!" 😡 BangGut (talk) 18:56, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

@BangGut Extreme problems call for extreme measures. The concern is that if the page were unprotected, the vandalism would start right back up. —C.Fred (talk) 01:28, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

How come you didn't use the image of Chris Brown i told you about couple of days ago. It is titled "Heartbreak Breezy". It is on Wikimedia Commons and free to use. BangGut (talk) 01:35, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

You have to keep in mind as well that Brown is a more controversial figure than Beyonce. He did that one thing to his girlfriend that's still on a lot of people's minds, as well as other controversies. The risk of vandalism on a subject's article isn't based on how well-known the subject is, but rather how much controversy the subject has attracted, and with that there's going to be standpoints and biases that may lead to vandalism. GOLDIEM J (talk) 12:51, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

If you ain't gonna free this page from lockdown, well can you atleast change that overbearing photo that is up as a main image then? It has been up for years now! BangGut 2772 (talk) 20:12, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

@BangGut Not unless there is broader support from established editors for changing the image. —C.Fred (talk) 01:08, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

You used the term "established editors", well these so-called "established editors", might very well have a vendetta against Chris Brown, so they might probably care-less whether the image remains unchangeable. BangGut 2772 (talk) 18:12, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

The image you suggested was deleted as a copyright violation. If you know of any suitably licensed images, please bring them here for discussion Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:19, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Really? I'm disappointed to hear that, because i really liked that photo. There's another one i saw on Commons, it's en-titled "Chris Brown al peperoncino.jpg", i think it passes the copyright violation. You should check it out. BangGut 2772 (talk) 20:08, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Almost certainly also a copyright violation, and it's on the chopping block for speedy deletion. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:41, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

@BangGut On the contrary, new editors are more likely to come here with an agenda about the article, whether it be pro- or anti-Brown; established editors are more likely to maintain neutral point of view in their edits and discussion. —C.Fred (talk) 18:31, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with you, but hey everyone's entitled to their opinion. BangGut 2772 (talk) 19:55, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

How do I edit on Chris Brown's page especially pictures 41.116.27.54 (talk) 14:40, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

His domestic violence issues, which he is widely known for, are barely mentioned in the lead.

As the title says. This is the the main thing Chris Brown is known for and it's barely mentioned in a single sentence in the lead. It should be discussed how to implement this into the lead. TheXuitts (talk) 17:36, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

It is a stretch to say that is main thing he is known for, he was widely known before the incident for his music and he still is mainly known for his music after. If you personally only know him for this, then I do believe you are in the minority. If you want to discuss adjustments to the lead feel free, but you aren't going to get many people to agree with your statement imo. WikiVirusC^(talk) 17:52, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

I am also uncomfortable with the way that his violence issues are treated in the article. I think the assertion that it's "the main thing he's known for" is a bit hyperbole and not really relevant to analyzing the treatment of domestic violence in the article. Hyperbolic pretention aside, I do find the treatment of the acts that he's responsible for is a bit lackluster and euphemistic.

In the lead:

> In 2009, Brown pled guilty to felony assault of his then-girlfriend, singer Rihanna.

Is in the middle of the second paragraph (I missed it on first read while specifically looking for it), and accounts for one sentence out of four paragraphs.

Furthermore, in the "Legal issues" section:

> At around 12:30 a.m. (PST) on February 8, 2009, Brown and his then-girlfriend, singer Rihanna, had an argument that escalated into physical violence, leaving Rihanna with visible severe facial injuries which required hospitalization.

So taking the same sentence, it's the "argument [... left] Rihanna with [severe injuries]", not Brown. While in fact, the physical violence and injuries were direct actions perpetrated by Brown. The second paragraph in the section will relate how Brown justified his actions are a result of his upbringing (and implicitly, not of his responsibility).

I understand that previous contributors have done the best that they could covering the subject, but I wish to highlight what I find lacking in the current verbiage in the hopes of finding a better way to document the topic on an important issue.

From an informal perusal of previous talk page comments, it seems several contributors have also expressed a level of discomfort with the way the subject is touched, without necessarily knowing precisely how to improve it as a practical matter, or how to do so in a way that makes some forms of consensus. I'm hoping we can find those ways to improve the article and to give the issue the treatment that it deserves. Bert Macklin (talk) 09:44, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

There’s also a lack of any reference either in legal issues or personal life to the fact that he was served a 5 year restraining order for violence and threats against his ex partner Karrueche Tran. Sarcastathon (talk) 09:32, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

I just fixed the "argument beating Rihanna instead of Chris Brown" sentence DollysOnMyMind (talk) 11:01, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 July 2023

i would like to add more genres he’s done such as Rock, Soca, Afrobeats, Dancehall, EDM, Europop, Alternative R&B, Dance, etc. i’d like to demonstrate his versatility 2600:6C5A:4A7F:1695:CC7A:531F:B614:C5CF (talk) 00:36, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. EggRoll97 ^(talk) 04:02, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

I edited to include EDM, House, Afrobeats and Trap - as all of these genres are present in the artists' discography. But another editor (Binksternet) reverted and stated the the infobox template states that a maximum of 4 genres can be listed in the infobox. That however is flat out false as the infobox template states that preferably 2 to 4 genres should be listed. This preference is exceeded across a number of artist's articles. For example there is a featured article on Elvis Presley in which 7 genres are listed in his infobox, which makes it apparent that 2 to 4 isn't a bright-line rule and can be exceeded. Others examples on quick search are artist's Taylor Swift, Kanye West and Rihanna who have more than 4 genres listed in their respective infobox as well. I tried to reach a compromise with the editor on 4 genres (R&B, Pop, Hip Hop and EDM) and was reverted again. So it's obvious this editor isn't open to genres in this artist infobox being expanded at all, even when the genres are present in the artist discography. As such, I have gone back and restored my original edit since it was reverted under false justification that the infobox allows for a maximum of 4 genres to be listed. The editor who was reverting can respond here and explain why they used false justification to revert initially and why they weren't open to a good faith compromise despite their false justification being accepted. Instantwatym (talk) 17:38, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Various references and Wiki atricles listed below to support the other genres added to the infobox (This isn't an exhaustive list, but its more than sufficient to support the additions. I will add more if needed):

• Afrobeats 1234567891011
• EDM and House 1234567891011121314
• Dancehall and Reggae 1234567891011121314
• Trap - Don't need to go too much into detail on this one with different releases. The artist has a collaborative Trap/R&B album with Young Thug titled Slime & B.123

Instantwatym (talk) 19:13, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Instantwatym not even one article out the billion you linked indicates Chris Brown as a dancehall/house/afrobeats/whatever artist. The statement itself of Chris Brown being a house, trap, or afrobeats artist is ridiculous. He is an r&b singer that puts influences of other genres in some songs. If I ask you to name me one Chris Brown album that can be considered as house music, can you name me one? You're making this article look like a piece from a Chris Brown related blog, this is Wikipedia, please stop. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lean Harvey Oswald (talk • contribs) 11:52, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

"Instantwatym not even one article out the billion you linked indicates Chris Brown as a dancehall/house/afrobeats/whatever artist." The articles state the genre of release, which is the point being made here. "He is an r&b singer that puts influences of other genres in some songs" yes every artist has a primary genre and the other genres in the discography support the additions of other genres to the infobox. For example, in a featured article Elvis Presley has R&B listed as one of his genres, which I personally find a bit egregious but perhaps he has a few releases in this genre to support the claim (I'm not familiar enough with his catalog to challenge the addition). Nevertheless it's not his main genre either. Having album releases in genres such as Trap is sufficient to support the claim. He has several singles released in the House genre which have certifications in the US and other countries. Brown also won best international afrobeats artist at the Headies, the main award show related to the celebration of afrobeats music. And why was he awarded this? Because of his numerous Afrobeats releases and contributions to the genre. This is how other genres are added to the infobox based on releases in said genres present in an artist discography. For example, artist Rihanna has Hip Hop added to her infobox in a "good article" but has limited releases in that genre and she certainly isn't known as a rapper. Kanye West has Pop added to his infoxbox so are we to assume that he's known primarily a Pop artist or considered a Pop singer? No but he has releases in that genre with supporting sales certifications so it is added. It's seems like you're not familiar with how genres are added to the infobox across various articles. The only editorial bias here is editor(s) trying to remove genres that are clearly present in the artist catalog (backed by references on releases in given genres, genre classifications in release history details, sales certifications for singles/album released in given genres). The argument you're making for removal is based on WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. Instantwatym (talk) 15:18, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Just because other articles have some bullshit information, you do not have to replicate that same behavior in your edits. Your sources are not backing any claim for the genres you provided. You just said that you aknowledge that he's an RnB/pop/hiphop artist as well. So why are you adding all these genres that are just remotely related to this dude? DollysOnMyMind (talk) 21:33, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps you should learn to communicate without resorting to profanity. You used profanity in another talk page discussion today as well. Those other articles don't have BS information. They wouldn't be promoted to featured or good if that were the case. There are numerous featured and good articles like them in which the infobox of the respective artists have subgenres listed (asides from the primary genre) based on release history in those genres. This category for genre in the infobox template isn't for the primary or main genre. And as pointed out above already, Brown has numerous releases in the other genres added. In some cases its very clear. Your original comment is simply uninformed. You imply that this artist can't be considered afrobeats. When literally the most prominent organization which has historically celebrated Afrobeats as genre (The Headies) recognized him as the best international afrobeats artist. The category is literally designed for international artist with outstanding contributions to afrobeats as a genre. Which is evident with him, as he was part of the American expansion and has released numerous Afrobeats songs with prominent Afrobeats artists. The same is true for the other genres added to the infobox. They are not just remotely related. He has numerous releases and sales certs in them.

If I was adding genres that were just remotely related to him (which I'm not) then I would have added French Pop and Reggaeton as well. Because the artist has a French Pop single with French Pop Star Dadju. This artist was also nominated for International Artist of the Year at the Latin Billboard Awards in 2022 for his Reggaeton hit Nostaligo (which has 5x Latin Platinum sales certification). But I didn't add those because they are only remotely related and based on one off releases in the genres. The one's that were added however are prominent in his catalog with numerous releases. So simply put, you are arguing based on WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT and doing so against this artists release history and doing so against the edit practices for adding additional genres to an artists' infobox asides from the primary genre (as pointed out by the examples given from other artists articles). Moreover, based on your uninformed comments on lets say him as an Afrobeats contributor it doesn't seem like you're too familiar with this artists' catalog to be arguing so strongly about removal based on WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. Instantwatym (talk) 22:09, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

It's not about using profanity, it's about calling it what it is. You're adding complete bullshit information. I'm saying this twice. In no way Chris Brown is an afro-house-whatever artist, and NO SOURCE you're proposing backs that claim. It's not about WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT, it's about the fact that most of sources you provided are unreliable as fuck, and the rest of them talk about him collaborating with some afrobeats artist, which is a far far far far far far far far far far far far far cry from saying that he's an afrobeats artist. The fact that he has a French Pop single with French Pop Star Dadju don't mean shit either, if these were to be the criterias to put genres, we would list Ed Sheeran as a hip hop artist, Justin Bieber as a rock singer, Tupac Shakur as an R&B artist, but guess what? That's bullshit.

The genres on the infobox are for the primary genres of the artists, you are filling them with the most minimal influences of his discography and this is not cool. I'm not misinformed in any way. Chris Brown has not released any afrobeats album, nor a house album, etcetera. He has done a single with afrobeats artist WizKid, that makes him an afrobeats artist? No. He has done a song with David Guetta, that makes him a EDM artist? No. You know what makes him an RnB singer? The fact that he has done 10 studio albums belonging to that genre. You are putting all these genres on the same level, but his discography does not. I invite you to fix it

I won't stop this DollysOnMyMind (talk) 07:41, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

You're taking in circles based on WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT and against cited sources and against Wiki edit practices for the infobox. I've made this clear already in the responses provided. I will respond on this discussion to other editors who are interested in engaging but not to you. And starting other talk page discussions on the same topic (as you did below) whilst one already exists is poor etiquette. You also tried to bring this discussion up in a completed unrelated talk page disucssio on the talk page of a different artist - which quitely frankly come across as hounding because you kept bringing up this discussion which was unrelated.

"He has done a single with afrobeats artist WizKid, that makes him an afrobeats artist?" - again you are uninformed and that's why it comes across as WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. Here are the following Afrobeats releases in his catalog: "Your Number Remix" with Ayo Jay; "African Bad Gyal" with Wizkid; "Blow My Mind" with Davido; "Shopping Spree" with Davido; "Lower Body" with Davido; "Nobody has to know" with Davido; "Diana" with Fireboy DML; "Monalisa" with Lojay and Sarz; "Call Me Everyday" with Wizkid; "Time N Affection" with Rema. Ironically, these releases were highlight in the references above, which you implied you looked through when you initially replied to this discussion, but now its obvious you did not and are arguing for removal based on WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT.

"The fact that he has a French Pop single with French Pop Star Dadju don't mean shit either" - Obviously. The point I was making there was that genres in which he has one off releases and not signficant contributions were not added. It seems like you can't even follow the discussion. Slow down and read the discussion properly. I won't respond again anyways because you're just ranting without reading replies, while also ignored cited releases and references (which you now made clear you didn't look through) and trying to create new standards on whether other genres other than the primary should be listed in the infobox (Whcih goes against the standard set on articles promoted to featured and good). Instantwatym (talk) 12:49, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

So, he didn't make 1 afrobeats song, he did 7. Ok, 7 featured songs are still insufficient to put afrobeats into his infobox. What about house music, he has done like 3 songs of it too? DollysOnMyMind (talk) 13:09, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Relationship with Rihanna should be in lead

Doesn't really make sense that his relationship isn't in lead. For many people that is one of the things he's most known for, aside from his music.The One I Left (talk) 11:14, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Present in the 2nd paragraph of the lead "In 2009, Brown pled guilty to felony assault of his then-girlfriend, singer Rihanna. In the same year, he released his third album, Graffiti, which was considered to be a commercial failure compared to his previous works". The 2nd and 3rd paragraphs follow a timeline of his career in terms of album releases. This excerpt about his relationship with Rihanna is in the correct place as their domestic violence incedent occured in 2009 and that was following the release of his 2nd album but prior to the release of his 3rd, as can be seen in timeline present in the lead. Instantwatym (talk) 17:13, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

"Polyhedric"

The article states that "his musical style has been defined as polyhedric", with no citation. I wonder where this came from - it's a highly bizarre adjective to describe music. I guess maybe it means "multifaceted"? Unless there's real evidence of people using this word in reference to him, I think it should be changed to something more comprehensible, like "versatile" or "crossover". CWMcGee (talk) 03:41, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, these lines need to be removed. As far as I can tell, that word has never been used to describe his music or anyone else's. A Google search of "chris brown polyhedric" simply brings up a bunch of aggregator pages quoting this very article. Honestly, I think it's clear that this entire article has been written from a fan perspective and should be rewritten for bias.172.87.33.194 (talk) 20:38, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree with that. Galobtter (talk) 15:24, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

I just removed that part. Galobtter (talk) 15:26, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 December 2023

Change birthday May/5/1989 Change it to August 28 1984 170.63.193.135 (talk) 02:59, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 04:25, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Jamel

Friend back with me and how to my girlfriend keep trying to break up with me if you got another dude on the sidelines and how to care attention she messing with somebody else and I miss my girlfriend can you please help me jamelwilliams@ 2601:407:8680:2E90:54D:14EC:CAA4:FB34 (talk) 17:19, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Sales data in lead is not accurate

Recently the sales data in the lead was changed from 217 million to 140 million. And then from 219 million to 140 million. All based on an albany herald source [1] reporting an outdated certifications tally from the list of best selling music artists wiki article and the language from this article. Brown has certified up to 219 million units. Sales can't fall below that figure, if certifications confirm minimum of 219 million. Using outdated sources to challenge that is nonsensical. Here is another more recent source from Yahoo reporting a figure of 197 million, but this source is also using an outdated certifications tally from the list of best selling music artists wiki article and the language from a previous iteration of this article, similar to what the albany herald article did. It's like arguing that the artist has not released any albums after their debut because an outdated source from his debut era confirms he's in his debut era.

For the time being I've changed the figure in the article to 197 based on the Yahoo source, although this isn't the most accurate either. But since this argument is based on using a secondary source as opposed to certifications tally then lets at least use a more recent one. The source has also been updated in the best selling music artists article. Thanks. Instantwatym (talk) 15:35, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Little improvement but still highly inflated. Look the matter in the following way: You used a reference saying he sold 219 million records, and his certifications are 219 million. It is remotely closed to the reality, if we use de facto procedures to the most artists, contemporary, newer or older than Brown. If the artist has release more records since then, remember that many of the certifications and sales are highly based on streaming. See "Breezy", in it's opening week sold 5K pure copies compared to the 72K equivalent-album units.... His other records follow similar performances, during and after the opening week. Other similar R&B/Pop artists have the same performance, or have more streaming figures than pure units... including big ones... but relies much in the era music industry is now. They count as sales, because IFPI or Billboard do, but these lists are tied more to the real physical/digital copies sold... Otherwise, I don't think you would agree Drake sold more and double than other related artists in this matter like Michael Jackson... --Apoxyomenus (talk) 17:21, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

That is a roundabout argument and not the same precedent being used for other artists. For example, Britney Spears has her sales listed as 150, the same as the certifications tally which includes physical, digital and streaming equivalents. The Albany Herald figure and the Yahoo source you included repeating also listed a certifications tally, albeit an outdated one from a previous interation of this article and the linked article. So arguing against certifications tally while including articles that report an outdated certifications tally is contradictory. 197 is an improvement, albeit it a minor improvement. Streaming equivalents tally to 219 which is neither 197 nor 140 and his US lead certifications are outdated anyways. So 219 is actually a much lower figure than what the actual is. Instantwatym (talk) 19:09, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

It's evident that the landscape of music certifications has evolved, no longer directly correlating with record sales. Otherwise, we risk misrepresenting true artistic impact; imagine listing Drake as the best-selling artist instead of the Beatles. Take Britney Spears, for instance, a stalwart in the music industry since 1998. The bulk of her certifications stem from releases predating 2013, a contrast to the trajectory of Chris Brown. Consider his album "INDIGO," certified for 1 million units by RIAA in 2019, yet with only 84,000 copies sold. TheWikiholic (talk) 21:03, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

It's not our business as Wikipedia editors to engage in original research. The argument being made is that one figure (197) is inflated and the other (140) is not when neither source goes into detail about the sales figures and what percentage is attributed to streaming equivalents. The original argument was that 140 is accurate because a secondary source said so. Now that another more recent source lists a higher figure of 197, the goalpost has been shifted to streaming equivalents and what percentage can be attributed to that, when that never came up with the 140 figure and its hard to establish the percentage for either figure. Even if we did, it would be considered OR. Also as stated previously, this precedent of ignoring certifications is not even being adhered to across other articles (e.g., Britney Spears, who has her sales reported as the certified tally which includes her streaming equivalents, the same goes for Usher and Mariah Carey), so what is actually is the standard for reporting sales on these articles because its not consistent. Streaming equivalents exist for a reason and are weighted accordingly, where you need a signficant amount of streams to log a single sale or an album sale. Every new update for claimed sales in the linked article has some percentage attributed to streaming equivalents anyways. By no means is it all pure sales. And I personally don't find it that hard to imagine that Drake has sold more than the Beatles (pure + weight streaming equivalents). Instantwatym (talk) 22:08, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Record sales are difficult to measure, and it is not a Wikipedia thing. Both are secondary sources, so the original research can be applied to both sides. Certifications for instance, are sometimes not updated by record labels for all of their artists. Take as example Michael Buble's Christmas (2011), as took their label almost 10 years certified its U.S. sales (2021), as we can see figures from Nielsen (more than 5 million pure units) vs RIAA. Some acts have almost inmediately updated their certifications. And add that in the post-2013, many are streaming-generated ones. Take the example you brought, Carey, as you might be familiar with her: firms like Nielsen give us the idea the differences between both streaming/pure sales and in her case, she didn't even have successful sales for albums since 2014 in the US, for instance, or back to 2009 if we take gold/500K sales compared to platinum. Nor millionarie sales for singles (dominant format now), as we can see by Nielsen. Streaming are counted to sales, at some extent. And this is applied for all artists by the community. Hence you're the one that made the change and more than 3 users have disputed it, per Wikipedia's guideline, you're the one that need to seek for a consensus, because your reversion could considered edit war. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 14:13, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

- The argument for changing from certified units of 217 to 140 was that a secondary source claims sales of 140. Now a secondary source, a more recent one, claims 197. Since then no argument has been presented as to why 140 is more accurate than 197. I could use the same argument to lower claim sales for any given artists, using outdated claimed sales, due to percieved inflation in the digital/streaming era.

- Per Wikipedia guidelines of WP:ONUS its up to the editor changing information that is status quo to present a valid argument. If we assume that claimed sales reported by any given secondary source claimed is a valid argument, then changing from 140 to 197 is also valid. I don't see any reason to reinstate 140 anymore. Doing so would be a contradiction and you have contradicted yourself with your last revert in the linked article using a edit summary that I reverted a source claim, when you revert a more recent sourced claim from a secondary source of equal quality. This is editorial bias. Instantwatym (talk) 15:37, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

The source you provide for your 197M claims is nothing but a figure from the 2022 version of Wikipedia and can’t now be used as a source on Wikipedia per WP:Circular. TheWikiholic (talk) 18:22, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Your repeating what I stated originally alleged about the 197 and 140 figures being taken from Wikipedia (as can be seen by my original comment above when opening this discussion) doesn't make the 140 figure valid either. This is getting comical. Instantwatym (talk) 18:33, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm a real stickler for getting rid of CIRCULAR references, but I'm not seeing it in the cited Yahoo! News source. They don't reference Wikipedia at all.

I don't see any value in keeping an old reference with an old number. Chris Brown has released a bunch of music since that reference was published, and he continues to do so. His sales figures keep climbing. Binksternet (talk) 20:19, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Oops! I figured out that the 197 million figure was added without reference in July 2022. I agree that a later news item might very well be citing Wikipedia without attribution. Binksternet (talk) 20:51, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I differ a bit to what is considered outdated vs the "now". Some sources with 5 years of differences can give a different and contradictory figure: an older one with a high estimation vs a newer with low estimation. Is not an user opinion, but are secondary sources. Certainly there is no problem with updates, but need to be weighted. I saw similar cases from another user with Mariah's seasonal track based on certifications-streaming, but still wonder if this is ethic. I appreciate the resonability and contributions, but certainly, doing this (another example), and adhere to that view, seems to goes against to our guidelines or push a POV, in my opinion. I might be wrong. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 03:19, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Just to let you known, various artists have secondary sources claiming higher sales to increase their current ones, ranging from the Beatles, Michael Jackson, Elvis Presley to Elton John and Madonna (top current five) + plus there is evidece of various uncertified records. We can use analogies both for and against to. It is difficult. But then, we've sources, and some might contradict each other, and both sides could be considered original research. If you are convinced that your argument is the most right choose for this case, or you see a bias from other editors, might you can consider easily open a consensus. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 17:22, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 February 2024

I would like to edit his sales as its been reduced when it originally being at 217M units sold worldwide is overall his entire statistics which his streaming does generate into units which makes his sales 217M units worldwide Ronnyron05 (talk) 14:54, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 16:07, 27 February 2024 (UTC)