Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)

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The miscellaneous section of the village pump is used to post messages that do not fit into any other category. Please post on the policy, technical, or proposals pages, or - for assistance - at the help desk, rather than here, if at all appropriate. For general knowledge questions, please use the reference desk.

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Help settle the Calton Hill dispute

If you are or have been a resident of Edinburgh, Scotland and are familiar with the Calton Hill, you might like to contribute to a current editorial dispute on its Discussion page. Your views would be greatly appreciated to help resolve a stand-off. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kim Traynor (talk • contribs)

Audit Subcommittee appointments (2012): Invitation to comment on candidates

The Arbitration Committee is seeking to appoint at least three non-arbitrator members to the Audit Subcommittee, and is now seeking comments from the community regarding the candidates who have volunteered for this role.

Interested parties are invited to review the appointments page containing the nomination statements supplied by the candidates and their answers to a few standard questions. Community members may also pose additional questions and submit comments about the candidates on the individual nomination subpages or privately via email to arbcom-en-blists.wikimedia.org.

Following the consultation phase, the committee will take into account the answers provided by the candidates to the questions and the comments offered by the community (both publicly and privately) along with any other relevant factors before making a final decision regarding appointments.

The consultation phase is scheduled to end 23:59, 19 February 2012 (UTC), and the appointments are scheduled to be announced by 29 February 2012.

For the Arbitration Committee, –xeno^talk 04:00, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Discuss this

MIT Course on Copyright Law

Just in case someone is interested :) MIT is releasing, for fee, a lot of course material online - they call it "Open Courseware". Anyway, I just saw this course on Copyright Law - covering things like media and fair use. I figured it might be handy to some editors if they wanted to find out more! Link Enjoy. --Errant ^(chat!) 10:36, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

You wanted to say "for free", instead of "for fee", right? CasteloBranco^msg 18:38, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

University research project on categories seeks interviewees

Hey. I am a Wikipedian in Seattle who is a campus ambassador. I writing to ask for volunteers to be interviewed by researchers who are studying Wikipedia's categorization system.

A class at the University of Washington is conducting one-hour text chat interviews with Wikipedians who want to talk about Wikipedia's categorization system. The goal of the project is to get enough information to draft a proposal that information scientists spend time participating in developing Wikipedia's taxonomy system. The research results will be returned to interviewees and everyone else, and they are expecting to publish a paper based on the results of this project.

If you have ever used Wikipedia's category system in any way and are willing to schedule an interview with this group, then please put your name on this list. The followup will be that they will email you to schedule a time when you could meet them for a text chat.

Thanks for your attention. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Problems in the Spanish Wikipedia

We have problems in the spanish wikipedia. There is a blog in spanish that explains very good this problem but no good understood for the no spanish speakers and also because is in the blacklist. But now, there is another version with only 5 articles translated to english: untanglingtheweb-es.blogspot.com That is for everyone to want know what exactly happenend in the es-wiki. Thanks! PS: The tranlation is not 100% correct. Sorry for the mistakes. Thor8 (talk) 23:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

We too, in en.wiki, have stormy tea-cups. I trust it'll all blow over. I doubt there's much any of us can do here. You need to hash out es problems on the es.wiki. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:13, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

No, I only intend make publicity for this blog. The people in all the wikipedias must it know. In the es-wiki the problem is very big, like the portuguese. Here there is sure problems but in our wikipedia there is a cancer! Read it and pass it please! 79.147.3.14 (talk) 00:11, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I still didn't get the problem after reading the blog. You need to lay it out for outsiders if you want this to have any effect beyond shrugging, and even then we're in no position to intervene in the Spanish Wikipedia. Fences&Windows 00:13, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I have to admit to some curiosity, but also have to reiterate that there is nothing that can be done from en.wp. If there are serious, legitimate problems, you'll have to go to the foundation for assistance. Resolute 00:19, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Presumptions of link rots vs. MLA format

Modern Language Association has instructions on citing a source. If a web, providing a URL is optional yet beneficial; prior versions required a URL for a website or webpage. Unfortunately, everybody believes that separation of a title and URL is not acceptable per Frasier Crane, Sam Malone, and Sam and Diane. Why is a separation of URL and title not acceptable. Printable versions separate them; why can't web versions? --George Ho (talk) 00:46, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't call such a separation "unacceptable"; I just can't think of a reason you'd ever want to do it. I think having the title be a link works much better and doesn't waste space on the URL. URLs are listed separately in printed bibliographies so you can actually type them in to your browser. If the link is already there and clickable on your screen, why would you want to read the URL separately? Ntsimp (talk) 04:36, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Because... that's how MLA formats work in print, and printable versions of Wikipedia articles separate them. Another thing: sometimes, a user can turn off the status bar of the browser, and a user won't be able to know what URLs the sources are without status bars. Even "copy shortcut" won't help this case, as sometimes a user doesn't copy-and-paste URLs. --George Ho (talk) 05:25, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Frasier Crane isn't using MLA, it uses Citation Style 1. When viewing the page, CS1 templates render the URL to the title to create a link; when printing, the URL is printed. Per WP:CITEVAR, you need to discuss style changes. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 16:51, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Would WP:Village pump (proposal) be fine? If not, where else? --George Ho (talk) 18:52, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

No, you need to discuss changes in citation style on the article talk page. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 09:40, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

MLA style was designed for print and makes little sense for a website. They don't need to see the URL - the rest of the reference describes what it links to. That said, it would be nice if references automatically formatted the URL separately in print versions of articles. Dcoetzee 21:55, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Print versions automatically separate URLs from titles. This is also discussed in WP:Village pump (proposal). --George Ho (talk) 22:26, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Is Wikipedia also a thesaurus?

I saw the article Uncredited background singer in the Aticles for Deletion section and after viewing the page I'm scratching my head asking "What's wrong with this picture? Why is this even being discussed?" I viewed the About Wikipedia page and saw no reference to Wikipedia being a thesaurus, just "encyclopedia." Is there somewhere else it is put forth? Am I misguided? I can't fathom an article of this nature as being encyclopedic. What direction can I take to come up to speed on what Wikipedia is if the About Wikipedia page is incomplete? Ken Tholke (talk) 15:51, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

"Wikipedia is not a dictionary" is a famous quote, and sometimes Wiktionary is mentioned afterward. But Wikipedia has no sister project that is a thesaurus the last time I checked. Georgia guy (talk) 16:14, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! It's a relief to hear someone else confirm what I thought. Ken Tholke (talk) 16:30, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

@ Georgia guy: See Wikisaurus. Rivertorch (talk) 22:45, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

In my experience people argue about what should not be in WP, see WP:NOT, rather than looking to a list of what should be included. I do not see what in the topic or content of Uncredited background singer is at all thesaurus-like and I do not think it would be appropriate in Wikisaurus. I would not be surprised to see AfD arguments that the article should be deleted because WP is not a directory but I would not agree with such arguments in this case. Thincat (talk) 10:51, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Introducing Gayle Karen Young

Hi everyone,
I'm trying something new. For some of our most community facing staff, I'd going to try "introducing" them to the Wikimedia communities on local sites like Village Pump. This is just a trial to see if it does any good, but my hope is that it will give you an opportunity to interact directly with new staff and ask them any questions you might have. I'm starting with Gayle Karen Young. Gayle is the new Chief Talent and Culture Officer for the Wikimedia Foundation. She writes a little about herself on her user page, but I've clipped a section below.

Professionally, I'm an organizational psychologist. This means I work with organizations, teams, and individuals to support effective processes, execute to strategy, develop leaders, and engage employees...

...Two key professional pieces that bear relevance in my personal life are that I am board chair of an innovative global women's human rights organization called Spark. My work in the human rights of women and girls is near and dear to my heart and Spark also has a commitment to developing leaders and allies. We leverage a networked approach because the complexity of global issues needs networked solutions. I also facilitate for the Women in Management program at the Stanford Graduate School of Business, which is another way that my commitment to supporting women in leadership roles emerges.

Gayle expands on her initial thoughts quite a bit in another page, which I've copied onto her talk page. I think you'll get a good feel for her if you read that.

I'm a huge fan of Gayle's, and I think you will be too. May I encourage you to drop her a note on her talk page and ask her any questions or just welcome her? And please let me know if you care to have introductions of this sort done in the future. I'd greatly appreciate the feedback. Thanks! Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 21:42, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

You've either got to laugh or cry. What does "execute to strategy" mean? Has the WMF now taken upon itself to redefine the English language? Malleus Fatuorum 22:04, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd thought that this sort of corporate bollocks-speak became unfashionable in the 1990s. Clearly I was wrong. Why has someone who can't write been given in a position in the WMF, a project supposedly to write an encyclopedia? Malleus Fatuorum 22:07, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm, yes. 'Do things' perhaps? Welcome to Wikipedia, Ms Young, where every word you write will be scrutinised, argued over, and nit-picked endlessly. We're a friendly bunch - or at least, some of us are... ;-) AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:11, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

There's no such thing as an "organizational psychologist", that's just floppy talk. Malleus Fatuorum 22:23, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Really? You should perhaps let the University of Exeter know - they seem to be offering a MSc in the subject: [1]. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:28, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

...and come to that, we have an article on it: Industrial and organizational psychology. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:31, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, welcome to Wikipedia, Ms Young, where most folks are much grumpier than Andy ever were. Sgramnatically, —MistyMorn (talk) 22:49, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The confusion of psychology, psychiatry, and sociology is a common one, so not surprising that a university would attempt to profit from it. Malleus Fatuorum 22:51, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Well I doubt Ms Young has too many confusions on that one, and I guess she's well versed on psychosocial factors too. One needs to be around here... —MistyMorn (talk) 00:07, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

How'd that go again? Didn't ArbCom say something remarkably like "5) Malleus Fatuorum (talk · contribs) is admonished for repeatedly personalizing disputes and engaging in uncivil conduct, personal attacks, and disruptive conduct." just a couple of days ago? Perhaps someone should inquire with ArbCom whether these sorts of mean-spirited and wholly superfluous comments are the sort of thing that they had in mind, and whether they have a preferred notion of how to respond to their continued appearance. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:29, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

• Welcome to the community, Gayle :). Philippe's endorsement is good enough for me. Ironholds (talk) 23:14, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
• Adding my welcome! I promise we're mostly nice people once you get past the prickles :) (Oh, and you'll eventually either get used to or be assimilated by the insanity, but I'm sure they informed you of that risk when you took the job...) sonia♫ 01:35, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the warm welcomes! :) I'm pretty used to a range of behaviors of online communities - and my range of employment includes the mental ward at a public hospital in San Francisco so I've seen a lot of "interesting"! I'm really pleased to be at WMF. I'm thinking a lot about what we're doing and how to care for the employees of the Foundation so the Foundation can focus on supporting the movement and the community. Philippe's been a wonderful guide for me and I've already interacted with so many thoughtful people. Feedback and opinions are invited, especially as I'm deep in learning mode - which feels a bit like I imagine drinking from a fire hose would. It was really lovely to pop online and see all these welcome messages. Thanks again! Gyoung (talk) 21:32, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Essays

When creating essays in our namespace, is it OK to host them about non-Wikipedia related content?

[[File:Wink.jpg]] (talk) 02:17, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

No. I guess "our namespace" refers to your userspace such as User:Walex03/What Wikipedia Is, but if it isn't about Wikipedia then it isn't OK anywhere at wikipedia.org. See Wikipedia:User pages#What may I not have in my user pages? and WP:NOTWEBHOST. Userspace pages can be nominated at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion. PrimeHunter (talk) 02:39, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Alright thanks.

Walex & 03. A Life together. (talk) 00:30, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Song content and structure

I think it would be nice if articles about popular songs would not just talk about stuff like sales and artists' strife but actually talk about the songs themselves. I realize the content of many or most pop songs is vapid or minute, but can't we give a "plot" or "message" summary. In any case, at least the musical aspect could and should be discussed by those who can [e.g., 4 4 time, strong beat, syncopation, kind of harmony]. 202.179.16.71 (talk) 04:01, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

finding reliable sources for such info is surprisingly tricky.Genisock2 (talk) 04:41, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

When looking at articles on musical concepts, I am often pleasantly surprised about the number of links to specific examples. For example, D♭ tuning tells us it is used in Chuck (album) (but no source is given!). So, a "what links here" from the "song" article can help. Unfortunately, there are so many "what links here"s to Chuck (album) that it is difficult to make headway. Why not suggest something at Wikipedia:WikiProject Music? Thincat (talk) 14:20, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree. I have added brief lyric summaries to a number of songs. Where the meaning is evident from reading the lyrics, no third party source is required (the primary source suffices - if there's an official artist website with lyrics you can add a ref to that). This is analogous to our practice of adding plot summaries to articles on movies and films. Feel free to do so yourself. Likewise, if the structure is obvious just from listening to the song (say, "verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus") there's no need for a third party source for that information, you can simply state it. Some articles do a great job of doing deep analysis on the content and structure of pop songs, like Hollaback Girl. Dcoetzee 21:30, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Template protected - additional new interwiki

The template Template:Infobox UK place is protected against vandalism so I can not add a new interwiki. Could you please add the french interwiki fr:Modèle:Infobox Ville du Royaume-Uni. Thanks. Skiff (talk) 12:25, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Please add interwiki links to the template's documentation page, which is not protected. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:39, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Possible trademark infringement of Wikipedia's globe logo

Resolved

 – WMF is on the issue, nothing else for the community to do at this point. - TexasAndroid (talk) 15:47, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

A trademark of a logo filed this past December, serial number 85504189, might infringe on Wikipedia's trademarks @ serial numbers 77482839, 77529070, and 77978442.

Infringement is based on whether a mark is confusingly similar. I had immediately mistaken the logo for Wikipedia's at first glance. You can look at the logos from those serial numbers at uspto.gov under trademarks. Boozerker (talk) 16:20, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

File:Wikipedia lookalike 85504189.jpg

This is the other logo — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boozerker (talk • contribs) 16:47, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Here are the links:

Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.: 77482839, 77529070, 77978442

The Crossroad Publishing Company, Inc.: 85504189. PrimeHunter (talk) 17:00, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I've emailed the Foundation's legal team pointing them to this page. --Tango (talk) 22:22, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you so much Boozerker for finding this problem, PrimeHunter for getting particulars, and Tango for bringing it to our attention. The legal team is looking into the matter now. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 21:08, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Please help WP:HELP (example: WP:SPEEDY)

See ...#(I am over 30k) How to use a speedy template?, I started (must say, I like my own section title). The big question is: good & serious AGF editors there did not get to an answer, while there is no HELP for an editor like me except go to VP/x. -DePiep (talk) 00:00, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

You could have gone to Wikipedia:Help desk or used {{help me}}. I am curious why you you did not understand the instructions at Wikipedia:SPEEDY#Criteria, could you clarify which part of them was unclear to you? Yoenit (talk) 15:08, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Use of living.oneindia.in for references seems questionable

I am seeing lots of links to living.oneindia.in that seem less than authoritative as references, to me they seem like opinion pieces by authors of unknown authority. The site itself seems to be a whole set of redirects to other components within oneindia.in offshots, and to me we should be challenging the use of these links as not befitting Wikipedia:Citing sources and Wikipedia:External links. — billinghurst sDrewth 05:07, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia Research

Hello Wikipedians,

I apologize in advance if this is not the proper place in which to post this; if it would be better posted elsewhere, please let me know.

My name is Audrey and I'm a student at UC Santa Barbara, conducting a senior honors thesis on the motivations to contribute to Wikipedia. I'm looking for willing Wikipedians to take an online survey that will provide me with the data for my project. This survey is one-time commitment that should not take more than 30 minutes.

I don't know how to best distribute this survey to interested participants. Any suggestions?

Please feel free to email me: [email protected]

Thank you so much!

Audrey — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.231.116.192 (talk) 01:37, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

For suspicious Wikipedians, Audrey is at UCSB:[2][3]. Audrey, you should see Wikipedia:Research, Category:Wikipedia resources for researchers and Wikipedia:WikiProject Research. Fences&Windows 02:24, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Arbitration Committee 3

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Arbitration Committee 3

I should have posted here in the first place, but I didn't think of it. I did put a link originally on AN though. Anyways, there is an ongoing Request for Comment regarding the Arbitration Committee and how to deal with good-editing sockpuppets. The original intention of the RfC was on something a bit different, but this is where the discussion has turned to. Please read the full page, especially the bottom sections, and please comment and discuss, we could use more input. Silverseren^C 23:07, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Data mining to automatically rate editor abilities

Is there some way that a script or bot can mine the huge amounts of data that we create as editors in order to rate our editing abilities? Variables such as longevity of edits, longevity of blocks of text that remains, reversion of page moves, number of new pages created, talk vs article namespace etc can all be used as part of such a measure. Edit summaries can sometimes be used for an automated tool since bots apply a standard bit of text in it. It would be an interesting research project for academia. I have tried to get an editor review but it did not get much discussion and it will be more subjective. I want to usae it as a means of reviewing my performance. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 23:49, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

There's WikiTrust, though I don't know if it can be used for this exact purpose. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 00:59, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

That is more for the consensus of an article with the community rather than that of an editor keeping within the consensus. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 01:35, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure that any of those would necessarily be a useful metric since they each depend on other factors besides editing skill. This seems like it would be a difficult thing to assess, in a similar way to how judging coding skill is difficult. To me the best way to learn how well I edit is to try and take an article all the way through the PR/GA/FAC processes. Getting multiple peer reviews gives a lot of useful feedback. Regards, RJH (talk) 23:24, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Editing ability is rather subjective unless one defines what editing ability is. If editing ability is defined as "Being able to get through Wikipedia's assessment process successfully", then you'd probably be looking at a narrow pool of contributors interested in Article creation, DYK, GA, A class, FA, FL, and FP. What is the person's success at pushing through those nominations? How many edits had to be made to the content from the time an article was nominated to when the article passed? (But even that can have problems. Some articles will pass through GA before DYK, despite the lower barrier for requirements. DYK also has the issue of some things do not get reviewed in a month and thus drop off the page just because no one has bothered to review them.) Total number of edits not reverted might be useful but that doesn't say anything about the quality of the contribution undone. It could suggest ability to find areas to edit that are unwatched and relatively conflict free. Another consideration for editing ability might be how many articles did an individual created that were nominated for AfD or PROD deletion, how many survived that, etc. I think you'd need a basket of methodologies to get this data and then weight it. --LauraHale (talk) 23:33, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Please clarify...

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I was reverting vandalism at Tomboy and I got a message saying:

If you are undoing an edit that is not vandalism, explain the reason in the edit summary. Do not use the default message only.

Anyone able to change this sentence so that I'll know how to interpret "not vandalism"?? Georgia guy (talk) 17:41, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

If you don't know what vandalism is, you shouldn't be reverting it. If you do know what it is, then you know what it is not. → ROUX ₪ 17:47, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

According to MediaWiki:Undo-success, you should have seen a blue link, vandalism. -- John of Reading (talk) 17:52, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I know what vandalism is. Vandalism is a bad edit by definition; although I was warned a few times on my talk page that sometimes edits are not vandalism even if they're bad. Georgia guy (talk) 17:53, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

The link to WP:VAND, specifically the section saying "What is not vandalism", says that an edit is not vandalism if it is perceived by the editor as a good edit even if it's perceived by good Wikipedians as a bad edit. Is this right?? Georgia guy (talk) 17:57, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Clearly you do not actually know what Vandalism is, and you should therefore not be reverting it unless and until you do. In a nutshell, vandalism is intentional disruption of a page via either insertion of nonsense or material unrelated to the subject or factually inaccurate (e.g. changing someone's birthday) data, or removal without cause (e.g. blanking a section). → ROUX ₪ 18:00, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I mostly do; and usually if an edit isn't vandalism but I have to revert it, I explain in my edit summary. I'm just curious as to what this "not vandalism" phrase is doing. (A better description than the one I already gave is that an edit is not vandalism if it was not intended to be vandalism by its editors. Is this better?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:23, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Of course that's not better; how on earth would we ever establish the veracity of such claims? And 'mostly do' doesn't seem to be accurate here, based on what you are saying. Please stop reverting until you actually understand what vandalism is and is not. → ROUX ₪ 18:29, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

What do I not know whether it is vandalism?? Based on how I understand it; this means I need to improve it some. I know that vandalism must be a bad edit, but that the converse (which is that all bad edits are vandalism) is not true. I'm trying to get some experience with this converse being false, so I would like a 10-problem quiz; in each problem I would like for you to name an edit and for me to reveal whether it is vandalism. Georgia guy (talk) 18:37, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

It's blindingly obvious that while you may have loaded WP:VAND in your browser, you haven't actually read the page. Go read the whole thing. Every single question you are asking is answered there in detail. → ROUX ₪ 18:49, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, why couldn't you just say "Don't refer to edits as vandalism" rather than "Don't revert"?? I revert any edit that I see that appears bad. I always make sure I know why it is bad. So the best solution might be "always explain the meaning of your revert in the edit summary" if I'm the one who's reverting it (or more generally someone who doesn't know whether to call an edit vandalism.) (And I read the appropriate section; namely section 7, which is "What is not vandalism". Georgia guy (talk) 18:52, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I read that section (that's the section of WP:VAND relevant to this discussion.) Some of its sub-sections I understand well; others I don't. I understand 7.2 and 7.4 well, and if I revert an edit that's not vandalism according to those sections, I simply explain. But 7.5 is surprising. I'm extra-surprised about what section 7.5 says is not vandalism. 7.3 is tough. 7.6 is also surprising. 7.7 is the section I really need the most work with especially when it comes to pronouns to use with transsexuals. But now I know how 7.7 works and if I revert an edit that's not vandalism according to 7.7 I'll explain just as I would with 7.2 and 7.4. Georgia guy (talk) 19:03, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

It appears that people have been telling you that since 2006 [[4]] -- The Red Pen of Doom 18:57, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I got that statement. It's actually a matter of terminology. One of the most difficult Wikipedia-related things for me to learn is that "vandalism" doesn't mean "just any bad edit". Georgia guy (talk) 19:03, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I haven't yet brought up 7.8, which is another section I'm working on especially on talk pages. Georgia guy (talk) 19:06, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Oh for God's sake. Six years and you still don't understand? I'm done here. → ROUX ₪ 19:07, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Hold it! I found a better page. Wikipedia:Avoid the word "vandal". I'll try it instead. It should help. But the most important question here is: How common are Wikipedians who bring up the word "vandalism" inappropriately?? (I don't want to see myself as the sole Wikipedian who does so.) Georgia guy (talk) 19:17, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

After six years, I suggest that any Wikipedian who doesn't understand what vandalism is and isn't should go read this page and re-evaluate whether they have the skillset necessary to edit. → ROUX ₪ 19:19, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I have gone there and it sent me via a link (inside the intermediate level of competence) to the "five pillars". Ever since I've edited Wikipedia I've followed the blue, green, yellow, and red ones fine. The orange pillar must be the one that this relates to. I'm very sorry to use the word "vandalism" too much. Georgia guy (talk) 19:29, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

For clarification, the WP:COMPETENCE took me via a link at the top to a useful "Levels of competence", and then via another link to the "Five pillars". How do you rate me with all 5 of these pillars?? Georgia guy (talk) 19:32, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and one more thing to know: (Before reading this, please read all of this section from the start, and please leave it up to someone other than me and Roux to make a good response.) Comparing myself with Roux; I've been blocked only once in my entire 7-year period of being a registered Wikipedian, and this was in 2005. Roux has been blocked and unblocked (unblocked means unblocked whether by choice or by block expiration) many times, all since 2008. Georgia guy (talk) 20:00, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

You are requesting a response, but I don't see a question. — Bility (talk) 20:19, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

The question is: is Roux a good Wikipedian?? Georgia guy (talk) 20:24, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, he's great. — Bility (talk) 20:26, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Past behavior is not necessarily indicitive of current performance. Although sometimes it may be. -- The Red Pen of Doom 20:29, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Studying this whole section of the village pump, how do you rate Roux's posts?? Georgia guy (talk) 20:32, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

They are correct is what they are. It seems you are not capable of actually reading the things people are pointing you at; I pointed you at WP:COMPETENCE and suggested you read the whole page. Instead, you decided to blather on about some nonsense related to WP:5P. This rather starkly illustrates exactly how you have spent six years here without understanding what vandalism is/n't: you're uninterested in actually reading the things which people tell you to read because they will answer your questions. → ROUX ₪ 20:40, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

No, I mean someone other than Roux, how logical is Roux being here?? (Please let only Wikipedians other than Roux answer this question.) Georgia guy (talk) 20:42, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

When I look at this whole section, I see WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. -- The Red Pen of Doom 20:44, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I will answer whatever questions I fucking well feel like, thank you. You might wish to read this (we both know you won't actually read it; instead you'll click on some other random link and then complain that your question isn't being answered, but at least I'm providing you with the tools you need to answer your questions). → ROUX ₪ 20:49, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

• It is worth noting here that we are most likely being very subtly trolled. The OP originally claimed that he had reverted some vandalism and got a message which seemed incomprehensible or at least not very useful. It's fascinating to note, then, that the edit removing the vandalism (here) was a whole two minutes before the VP post... announcing that people should "see Village pump for something to know." At best, this entire section is disinegnuous; Georgia guy obviously has an agenda here. One wonders what it is. → ROUX ₪ 20:40, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Georgia guy, I suggest you just drop this whole thing with Roux. Your original question seems to have been answered or you've at least been directed to some pages for further reading. If you have problems with Roux's treatment of you during this thread, there are other more appropriate venues, like WP:WQA. — Bility (talk) 20:45, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I think it is time for a cup of tea and for all parties to walk away. There is nothing more to be constructively resolved here. -- The Red Pen of Doom 20:48, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Audit Subcommittee appointments (2012)

Effective 1 March 2012, Avraham (talk · contribs), Ponyo (talk · contribs), and Salvio giuliano (talk · contribs) are appointed as community representatives to the Audit Subcommittee. The period of appointment will be 1 March 2012 to 28 February 2013. MBisanz (talk · contribs) is designated as an alternate member of the subcommittee and will become a full member should one of the appointees resign their role during the term. The Arbitration Committee thanks all of the candidates, as well as the many members of the community who participated in the appointment process for these roles.

The Arbitration Committee also extends its thanks to Keegan (talk · contribs) who is expected to remain in office until 31 March 2012.

Support motion

AGK, Casliber, Courcelles, Elen of the Roads, Hersfold, Jclemens, Kirill Lokshin, PhilKnight, Risker, Roger Davies, Xeno.

Not voting

David Fuchs, Newyorkbrad, SilkTork, SirFozzie.

For the Arbitration Committee, –xeno^talk 17:55, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Discuss this

Work with Wikimedia

Hi folks,
I just want to call your attention to a series of job postings from the WMF. You'll find a few interesting jobs posted there right now - (on all levels: from entry level internships to senior staff) - and these reflect the Foundation's focus on attempting to hire from the community. Some of them specifically call out that Wikimedia experience is a serious plus, but others - like the newest posting for a junior counsel, which requires that the candidate be a Wikimedian. So, if you know anyone who might be qualified for these jobs, please let them know that we are really interested in hearing from them! (Selfishly, since it's in my department, I'm really looking very seriously for candidates for the counsel position... but I would love to see candidates for ANY of these positions.) Thanks! Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 19:12, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Currently posted:

Global Development:

• Communications Intern
• Mobile Partner Development Technical Manager
• Data Analytics Manager

Administration:

• Head of Office Administration

Community:

• Summer Community Analytics
• Development Associate

Legal and Community Advocacy:

• Counsel

Technology:

• Senior Software Engineer Frontend
• Software Developer Backend
• Software Developer Frontend
• Software Developer, Mobile
• Software Security Engineer
• Interaction Designer
• Operations Engineer
• Technical Product Analyst

The sandbox heading

Please listen carefully:

I've known for at least 5 years that there are kinds of edits that should not be made in the sandbox:

1. Removing the heading
2. Editing above the heading
3. Placing offensive stuff such as "fuck you" anywhere

Now, I want to know if there's any opinion about duplicating the heading, so that the heading will appear twice, like this:

{{Sandbox heading}} {{Sandbox heading}} Georgia guy (talk) 22:32, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Putting aside that the sandbox uses {{Please leave this line alone (sandbox heading)}}, not {{Sandbox heading}}, how will this help? — Bility (talk) 23:38, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

You should be familiar with re-directs in the template namespace to understand. Georgia guy (talk) 23:40, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I understand how redirects work, I'm asking how duplicating the template will help resolve the issues you've listed. — Bility (talk) 23:43, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, I know it won't solve the issue; what I want to know is whether it should be added to the kinds of edits you shouldn't make in the sandbox. Georgia guy (talk) 23:45, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Oh I see, you mean at Wikipedia:Misuse of the sandbox? I don't think it's terribly important (it is a sandbox after all), but it wouldn't hurt. Maybe just a note in the "Removal of the header" section. — Bility (talk) 23:53, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Does it really matter? We don't need to instruction creep the sandbox. Chris857 (talk) 23:56, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Could anyone have an eye on Jim101?

He repeatedly claim that I must "buy a brain" and always tries to assume me to be a troll. I think he may be suffer from elitism. --222.35.185.149 (talk) 18:35, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

It sounds like there is a notable controversy. The Chinese source you provided looks to me like a reliable source by Wikipedia standards even if it does spew a load of propaganda. What I believe in this case should be done is for the news item to be summarized but 'According to Chinese news sources...' or something like that put at the beginning. It isn't right for something like that to just be removed on the basis that it it is all propaganda because all news is controlled by the state. What should be done also is show the evidence from otehr sources that the claim that the US decided to just go in and bomb some cotton factory at random is a load of rubbish. Propaganda at the start of a war is important. Dmcq (talk) 13:15, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

No, it is not notable. The only sources that carries this information are government sanctioned news agencies, while no scholars with Chinese archive access ever even bothered to discuss the topic, so presenting the claim in equal weight (and in the infobox no less) constitutes as WP:FRINGE. Furthermore, the book Zhang, Hong (2002), The Making of Urban Chinese Images of the United States, 1945-1953, Westport, CT: Greenwood Press, ISBN 0313310017 goes into detail the amount of efforts the Chinese government used to manufacture hate against Americans before decided to join the Korean War, so this constitutes as WP:REDFLAG. Then, the IP used the Chinese equivalent of Why We Fight as sources to support his edit, so this is against WP:RS. Finally, the IP didn't even bother to translate his source from Chinese to English to show the credibility of his source, so this is just plain deception. Let's not devolve this into the moon is made out of cheese non-sense shall we? Jim101 (talk) 18:50, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

As for my stance on propaganda, propaganda as notable opinion is an unfortunately daily reality. But in this case, the IP tries to present propaganda as fact, which is utterly unacceptable. Jim101 (talk) 19:06, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Who writes Wikipedia

User:Polentario just mentioned Aaron Swartz's 2006 essay, Who Writes Wikipedia on Jimbo's talk page. In it, Swarz contradicts Jimbo's opinion at the time that the encyclopedia is written by “a community … a dedicated group of a few hundred volunteers” where “I know all of them and they all know each other”. Jimbo based this on the fact that "the most active 2%, which is 1400 people, have done 73.4% of all the edits,” and assumed that the remaining 25% of edits were from “people who [are] contributing … a minor change of a fact or a minor spelling fix … or something like that.”

Swartz analysed a few articles to see who contributed the most letters that survived in the articles, and drew an opposite conclusion:

When you put it all together, the story become clear: an outsider makes one edit to add a chunk of information, then insiders make several edits tweaking and reformatting it. In addition, insiders rack up thousands of edits doing things like changing the name of a category across the entire site — the kind of thing only insiders deeply care about. As a result, insiders account for the vast majority of the edits. But it’s the outsiders who provide nearly all of the content.

Swarz's conclusion rings true to me, but his sample was tiny. Has a more rigorous analysis of the question "Who writes Wikipedia" been done in the intervening six years? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:03, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I think the Wikimedia Foundation has more recent data, not sure where it is though. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:14, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. If I get no joy here, I'll ask someone there. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 06:50, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

When does an actor, singer, musician, artist become notable to be listed here?

At what point does one qualify to be listed here as being a notable artist, musician, singer or actor? I see several people from my state listed here as notable. Who submits them to Wikipedia? When will I be listed? Thank you, Eddie Napolillo. Actor from RI. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rifilmmaker (talk • contribs) 09:48, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

See WP:Notability. The short answer is a person is sufficiently notable for WP when sufficient information about the person to write an article (not just a few passing mentions) has been published by reliable sources (this excludes user edited sites such as IMDb, Youtube, Facebook, blogs, etc.) Roger (talk) 13:18, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

A more specific set of rules for biographies can be found here: wp:bio, musicians here: WP:NMG, and actors here: WP:NF, I think... Ottawahitech (talk) 15:45, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

In my view, the decision about who/what is considered notable is highly subjective. When articles are proposed for deletion at Wikipedia, their fate depends on who started the article (well respected wikipedian or newbie/unknown), how well they are written (and what is included to pass the wiki-benchmarks), what citations can be located at the time of deletion proposal, who happens to see and participate in the deletion process, and more.... Ottawahitech (talk) 15:34, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Accolades ??

Why use the unfamiliar term Accolades on films? (se Avatar) Why don't use good old english term Awards.--Ezzex (talk) 17:35, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

The place to discuss that is at the article's talk page. Since you asked here, however, I'll point out that the word "accolade" entered the English language around 500 years ago, which certainly makes it old (though not necessarily good). Its meaning is broader than that of "award". Rivertorch (talk) 21:12, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I've noticed this too, and found it somewhat amusing that we don't just call the section "Awards," as that's usually what's in it, with other "accolades" being entered under sections entitled "Reception." dci | TALK 05:04, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

... and then there is Honors/ Honours :-) Ottawahitech (talk) 16:37, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

using template infobox company

I am trying to include the owner of the company in the infobox, but cannot get it to display. See: Entrust. What am I doing wrong? Thanks in advance. Ottawahitech (talk) 15:22, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Fixed - unlike page titles, the case of the first letter of a parameter name must match the template definition. -- John of Reading (talk) 17:35, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Question, Where should I start?

I am a new kid on the block, and trying to improve Wikipedia. Where do I start, how do I find articles to edit. Can somebody tell me please, about day in the life of an average wikipedian? Editor0000001 (talk) 00:09, 5 March 2012 (UTC)editor0000001

Welcome! I don't think there is really such a thing as an average Wikipedian. Everyone contributes in whatever way they want to. You could pick a subject that nobody has written about and write an article from scratch (just be careful that it is sufficiently notable - make sure it has been the subject of several independent publications or it might get deleted). You could pick one of the many stubs (very short articles) and expand it. You could have a go at tackling one of the backlogs of tasks that have been flagged up as needing doing but haven't been done yet. There are so many different ways you can contribute - find something you think you might enjoy doing and give it a go! Remember, one of our fundamental principles is Be Bold! - don't worry about doing things wrong, just give it a go and trust that someone else will come along later and fix it if what you do isn't quite perfect. --Tango (talk) 00:15, 5 March 2012 (UTC)