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::I suspect it depends on which space you are editing, this is just a Project page. So OK, I'm not 100% sure when we are asked for a CAPTCHA, but it definitely has become much more frequent, definitely despite not introducing any new URLs, and the new puzzles are bordering undecipherable. [[Special:Contributions/219.78.114.223|219.78.114.223]] ([[User talk:219.78.114.223|talk]]) 14:34, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
::I suspect it depends on which space you are editing, this is just a Project page. So OK, I'm not 100% sure when we are asked for a CAPTCHA, but it definitely has become much more frequent, definitely despite not introducing any new URLs, and the new puzzles are bordering undecipherable. [[Special:Contributions/219.78.114.223|219.78.114.223]] ([[User talk:219.78.114.223|talk]]) 14:34, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
:::Just to give a concrete example, I was challenged for [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Thalassemia&diff=prev&oldid=530919913 this edit], which I think is insanely conservative. [[Special:Contributions/219.78.114.223|219.78.114.223]] ([[User talk:219.78.114.223|talk]]) 14:37, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
:::Just to give a concrete example, I was challenged for [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Thalassemia&diff=prev&oldid=530919913 this edit], which I think is insanely conservative. [[Special:Contributions/219.78.114.223|219.78.114.223]] ([[User talk:219.78.114.223|talk]]) 14:37, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
:::: FYI, the reason you got hit with a captcha for that edit is because {{tl|Infobox Disease}} (via {{tl|MeSH2}}) generates a [[Medical Subject Headings|MeSH]] link for the current year unless an explicit year is specified. Since the article hadn't been edited yet in 2013, MediaWiki saw your edit as removing the link to "http://www.nlm.nih.gov/cgi/mesh/2012/MB_cgi?field=uid&term=D013789" (cached from December 29) and adding the link to "http://www.nlm.nih.gov/cgi/mesh/2013/MB_cgi?field=uid&term=D013789". [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 17:31, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
The policy section of the village pump is used to discuss proposed policies and guidelines and changes to existing policies and guidelines. If you want to propose something new that is not a policy or guideline, use the proposals section. If you have a question about how to apply an existing policy or guideline, try the one of the many Wikipedia:Noticeboards.
Please see this FAQ page for a list of frequent proposals and the responses to them.
Although it could be insignificant at first sight, the distinction between Category:Actors and Category:Actresses (the latter being a soft redirect currently) could be very useful and handy in Wikipedia, particularly in terms of navigation and accessibility (browsing the entire Category:Actors could be particularly inconvenient, when one needs a narrow subject for research purposes, for example Category:Norwegian actresses). The WP:Cat gender statement "separate categories for actors and actresses are not needed" does not give any reason for that. It's a case where the gender-neutral language seems to be unneccessary, if not troublesome in terms of WP:PRECISION. Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Gender-neutral language suggests gender-neutral language only "where this can be done with clarity and precision", which is not the case. Linguistically, this is especially so when the person bears a unisex name, like Robin Tunney when it's unclear whether it's he or she. The articles about actresses consistently refer to each as "actress", not "actor" and we already have long-standing categories of women by occupation, that have male counterparts: Category:Priestesses, Category:Abbesses, Category:Nuns. Considering all that, I propose this motion to drop the restriction on actresses in WP:CATGRS so that we could restore Category:Actresses and foster all relevant subcats, like Category:Actresses by country. Brandmeistertalk01:29, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is a gender issue. Traditionally people who are actors who are women have been called actresses, but they have pointed out that no, they are just as much an actor as any male actor. Apteva (talk) 02:18, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yet the word "actress" is not an anachronism in English and is obviously neutral as it's neither an offensive word nor a word to avoid. As far as I know it's simply grammatically incorrect to call for instance Jessica Biel an "actor" instead of "actress". Brandmeistertalk09:42, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's not grammatically incorrect (at least not in standard UK English); the distinction was common in the past, but has now become a lot less clear-cut.
Women did not appear on stage in public in England until after the Restoration of 1660, following which the terms actor and actress were both used to describe female performers. Later, actor was often restricted to men, with actress as the usual term for women. Although actress remains in general use, actor is increasingly preferred for performers of both sexes as a gender-neutral term. [OED 3rd ed., 2010; note to "actress, n", sense 2a] Andrew Gray (talk) 10:25, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should not prefer some unclear trends over encyclopedic purposes and having double standards (like Category:Priestesses but not Category:Actresses) is odd. There is still Academy Award for Best Actress, as well as a dedicated Category:Film awards for lead actress (not actor). Many dictionaries themselves still have the entry "actress". Brandmeistertalk
I wouldn't categorize female actors separately from male ones, just as we don't categorize female singers separately from male ones. The fact that a different word happens to exist doesn't mean we have to use it in our categorization system. I would only categorize by sex in professions where being of one sex rather than the other is somehow exceptional for that profession. Victor Yus (talk) 11:22, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Victor, and add that Cat:Priestess is a good example of this, because no matter what the religion, the priesthood is almost always dominated by, if not exclusively restricted to, one gender. Diana was served by women, and Jupiter by men. Exceptions to this approach have historically been rare. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:27, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We have enough problems fighting over what sexuality or religion someone is for categorization purposes. I don't think the benefits will outweigh the inevitable conflicts that will arise when it comes time to decide on an article about an actor of ambiguous gender. Gigs (talk) 00:26, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
To all but the older editors like myself, "actress" is a quaint anachronism like "aviatrix", still maintained by certain fogies like the folks who broadcast the awards shows! --Orange Mike | Talk02:44, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Terms like poetess, authoress and comedienne were used when I was young and they have all fallen by the wayside and things did not fall apart when this happened. As others have mentioned above those in the profession have moved to gender neutral language. As to dictionaries these, especially the Merriam-Webster definition here [1] whose 1st example of usage in a sentence is "my sister went to drama school to become an actor". Other dictionaries here [2], here [3] and here [4] all of which use gender neutral definitions. This writing style guide [5] gives us another reliable source for us of the word actor for both genders. Documentaries like The Celluloid Closet and programs on The Biography Channel and TruTV identify men and women as actors. Although many acting awards retain the term actress the associations that present them have moved away from it as can be seen in the In Memorium segment of this last February's Academy Awards [6]. Our MoS has long had this section Wikipedia:Gender-neutral language and it applies to this discussion as it always has. MarnetteD | Talk22:08, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That guideline sets out a series of general principles for deciding when gendered categories should be created. The first principle is "Do not create categories that are a cross-section of a topic with an ethnicity, gender, religion, or sexual orientation, unless these characteristics are relevant to the topic". In the case of gender, it says "A gender-specific category could be implemented where gender has a specific relation to the topic". The specific guidance against categorising actors by gender contradicts those general principles, and should be removed. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 20:34, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Most of those terms have, indeed, fallen by the wayside and I'm not averse to combining both categories into one. Still, a distinguishment between the two is still noted (the Academy Awards are a prime example), and a separate actresses category wouldn't be bad. Perhaps there could be "actor" and "actress" subcategories of one larger one, though I'm not sure what you'd name that larger cat. dci | TALK 02:24, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Did you not look at the link I provided that showed that the Academy Awards listed men and women as Actors, including Jane Russell and Elizabeth Taylor, in the years In Memorium section? They may not have changed the name of the acting award - yet - but they have certainly acknowledged the gender neutral use of the term "Actor". MarnetteD | Talk15:18, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Marnette continues to confuse or conflate two separate issues: a) the terminology used to describe women in the acting profession; b) the question of whether acting is a gendered profession.
The Academy Awards may or may not choose at some point to follow the example other awards and label their gendered awards as "male actors" and "female actors", but I see no evidence that any of the major acting awards have considered abandoning the gendered split in their awards ceremonies. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 05:06, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to me that there are two different issues raised here. The more important issue is whether we should categorize actors by gender. Victor Yus, WhatamIdoing, and Apteva address this issue above, and while they give cogent arguments against gender categorization, I think that gender categorization would be useful and appropriate for the reasons noted by Brandmeister, Brian the Editor, and DCI2026. The less important question is whether we should revive usage of the word "actress": since "female actor" accomplishes the same goal without the perceived baggage of the traditional term, we should just go with "female actor" and "male actor" as subcats of "actor". Any "actors of ambiguous gender" can be handled by recourse to the sources (see, e.g. Jaye Davidson, Divine (performer), RuPaul, etc.) or in the unsolvable case left in the parent category.--Arxiloxos (talk) 06:16, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Female actors" sounds fine to me, if there's going to be categories by gender (I'm not that big a believer in categories in the first place, so I'm also good with not having any distinction). I've heard elsewhere that the term "actress" is older usage in mainstream film and theater, and "actor" (for either gender) is preferred. "Actress" these days may be associated mostly with porn, not that I would know. 67.119.3.105 (talk) 04:01, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Quite. When there is a reason for someone to need to find actors that happen to be female, there should be linked data tool-oriented methods to do so (e.g. DBpedia) - using categories for this kind of extremely basic metadata is not only crude in terms of sophistication but has the many unwanted side-effects of the kind discussed above. — Hex(❝?!❞)13:10, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is not DBpedia, and we don't have those tools, because Wikipedia:Category intersection has never been implemented. So we still have static intersections categories, include many other categories for the intersection of gender and occupation ... and we have a set of long-term stable criteria for deciding when we create categories for such intersections. It is not, and never has been policy or guideline to follow SMcCandlish's desire to "avoid genderization of categories except where absolutely necessary". The guidance is that "a gender-specific category could be implemented where gender has a specific relation to the topic", and the case of acting it is a central aspect of the topic. This is illustrated by long-standing existence of dozens of categories of industry awards restricted only to women, some of which I have grouped together under Category:Actresses by award. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 21:22, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And how many of those have no male counterpart? Probably zero or close to it. You're missing the fact that Hollywood's obsession with divvying up everyone by sex and compartmentalizing them for evaluation and review purposes is as arbitrary as Negro baseball leagues were. It simply does not follow that one industry's latent (and often very overt, actually) sexism means we need to have a categorization system that follows suit. — SMcCandlishTalk⇒ ɖ⊝כ⊙þ Contrib.00:30, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Like it or not actor/actress are not unisex roles, an actress plays women, an actor plays men. The cat is as specific/inflexible as category:Spanish male tennis players. As for English, try "the actress Marilyn Monroe" in Google Books, then try "the actor Marilyn Monroe". The current category labelling is not massively helpful, particularly with non-West-European names where looking at category:Thai actors won't be remotely clear to most readers, though List of Thai actors + List of Thai actresses fills the task. (Though I don't think this actor Marilyn Monroe issue is as silly as category:German conductors (music), to distinguish from German conductors (electrical), while we're mentioning unhelpful cat names..) In ictu oculi (talk) 10:24, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There are at multiple productions which focus on males playing female roles and females playing male roles, for example Tootsie and Victor Victoria/Victor/Victoria (musical). In Shakespearean times there were no female actors and males played the female roles. It is certainly plausible that someone somewhere has put on a wig and played Marilyn Monroe, and that someone has cut their hair and played Cary Grant. Why does anyone care what someone's gender is? We have categories of golfers and female golfers and male and female tennis players, because there is a specific golf tour that prohibits males from participation and tennis tournaments prohibit females from playing in the mens tournament and males from playing in the females tournament (though Billie Jean King trounced an aging Bobbie Riggs). Wimbledon now pays identical purses for male and female winners. Anyone can play in the PGA, it just so happens that only one or two females have tried, and none have "made the cut" (Ms 59, Annika Sorenstam, came close). Apteva (talk) 17:26, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Even aside from historical cases, there are innumerable modern examples of women straightforwardly playing male roles and vice versa (i.e. not productions about this, but productions that just happen to have this), from Peter Pan to The Year of Living Dangerously to Orlando to whatever Bond film it was with the male-to-female transsexual in the "babes by the pool" scene. The assumption that "men play men and women play women" is demonstrably false, and the "thus we have to separately categorize them" so-called logic that follows on this incorrect assumption is necessarily fallacious on its face. — SMcCandlishTalk⇒ ɖ⊝כ⊙þ Contrib.00:30, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I oppose reinstating the actress categories. I don't care much one way or another about whether the word actress is maintained in the relevant articles, but I see no real argument for why the two genders have to be sorted into two different categories. (If you want to maintain the word "actress", why not Category:Actors and actresses?) Victor Yus sums up my views. Calliopejen1 (talk) 06:05, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. A large percentage of the respondents on this issue are fixating on the fact that "the word actress is not obsolete in English", as someone put it, when this really doesn't have much to do with anything. No one's telling anyone they have to use the phrase "female actor" in an article; there's simply no real reason to fork the category by gender. — SMcCandlishTalk⇒ ɖ⊝כ⊙þ Contrib.00:33, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
First off, I think the a lot of people are missing the real issue. I would say that actress is still used, but would be willing to go with "female actor". We have the article Academy Award for Best Supporting Actress among others which shows people still use the term and I was able to find lots of hits, including some from British newspapers in the last two-years with the google search "Actress picked for Lois Lane". However, it is also clear that actor will be used in gender neutral ways as well, so I am fine with either term. In general the roles people are given (although there are exceptions) corespond with their gender. I think it would work to divide out the actors by nationality categories into male and female sub-sections. There is such a high overlap between singers and actors, I really do not see how we justify dividing singers by gender and not dividing actors by gender, so I think we should divide actors by gender.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:52, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Split We split categories in fields where it is noteworthy to split. In the case of other celebrity fields like modeling or sports, it is so routine to segregate or talk about men separately from women that it would be absurd to not categorize them apart. Since female and male actors are so commonly spoken of separately (e.g. in awards ceremonies), it makes sense to follow that convention while categorizing them. And, as pointed out in the original proposal, this would be a convenient and reasonable scheme for navigation. I can easily imagine the value of sorting through female vocalists just like I could see the value in sorting through females who are actors/actresses. For my money, "actress" is in no way an anachronism and I find "actor" when applied to women jarring. This is purely anecdotal and I don't have any data on how common "actor" as a generic term is versus "actors" for males and "actresses" for females. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯07:09, 7 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I don't think a split by gender is justified in this case. Splitting singers is justified because there are distinct differences between male and female voices, and songs are often written for either a male or female singer. But there's no inherent distinction between male and female actors; yes, some awards differentiate by gender, but others don't. The distinguishing features for actors are what they perform in (stage, film, television, etc) and their nationality, but not their gender. Robofish (talk) 13:18, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I always favor precision in language (as explained by Brandmeister). Dropping actress would be an instance of gender neutrality causing obfuscation, rather than clarity. Another editor comments that "aviatrix" is a quaint anachronism. Well, "aviator" is not frequently used any longer, either, but, in cases where it were used, aviatrix would also be appropriate. To retain actor and actress serves a useful linguistic purpose. Dropping the word actress would be an inappropriate application of gender neutrality. It would apply gender neutrality simply for the sake of gender neutrality, and not because it provides any benefit. Hackercraft (talk) 23:36, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Split. Acting is a rigidly gendered profession, in which men and women work in the same settings but have roles defined by their gender. Unless a casting director is trying to make a counterfactual point, women don't get to play Hamlet and men don't get to play Ophelia. This gendered split is acknowledged at all the major awards in the profession, which have separate awards for men and women. The relevant guidance at WP:CATGRS stresses the principle that "A gender-specific category could be implemented where gender has a specific relation to the topic", and that is clearly the case here. We have gendered categories for singers Category:Female singers and Category:Male singers) for similar reasons, and in both cases there are specific exemptions in the UK's Sex Discrimination laws to permit differentiation by gender. (I presume that the same applies in other jurisdictions such as the USA, or women would be suing Hollywood for not being cast in the lucrative and more plentiful male roles). Note that the guidance also says that "separate categories for actors and actresses are not needed", but offers no reason for this breach of the general principle. The general principle that we make a decision on whether "gender has a specific relation to the topic" works fine in every other area of human endeavour, and we should apply it here too. The overwhelming majority of contemporary dramatic performances (whether for stage or screen) are cast according so that characters are portrayed by actors of the same gender. By far the largest exception to that is in some art forms or cultures where there is a convention that some or all of the parts are played by actors of the opposite gender (as in pantomime, with its tradition of cross-dressing, or when women were excluded from medieval theatre). In those cases, the gender of the actor is still a defining factor in casting: women don't get cast as pantomime dames, because that is a male role. There are some rare and notable exceptions to this, but they are notable precisely because of their rarity. The overwhelming convention of theatre is rigidly gendered, either by actors playing characters of their own gender, or by them playing opposite-gender chraacters who are customarily portrayed in that way. Look at the careers of some leading contemporary actresses. Of the top of my head, I took Judy Dench, Reese Witherspoon, Meryl Streep, Kate Winslet, Julia Roberts ... and in those 5 articles have found not one single example of these women playing a male part. These care not porn stars; these are women who act with their clothes except for a few sex scenes, so what's between their legs is irrelevant. The clear fact is that being female overwhelmingly restricts them to female roles. Note that the question of terminology should be separated from the decision on whether to categorise by gender. Concerns expressed by some editors that the word" "actress" is outdated do need to be considered; it seems that "actress" is falling out favour, but is still widely used. However, there are several other ways to title gendered categories for actors, so a rejection of the term "actress" does not prevent us from having gendered categories under a different title. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 21:48, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Some women who act prefer to be called actors, some directors would not think of casting a woman as Hamlet or a man as Juliet, yet in an all girls school only women play both roles and in an all boys school only men play both roles. Historically, originally only men were allowed to be actors, and the word actor came to mean a male actor, just as postman, fireman, chief came to mean a man, even though other than chief women have broken through to many male dominated occupations, and we create categories of women by occupation to chronicle not just nuns and concubines, but every occupation that has had a recent influx of women. An actress category would have been appropriate in the 17th century, but not in the 21st century. If a second category is to be created, it should be "male actors", not actresses, and leave actresses in the actor category, or if that seems too bizarre, two categories, male actors and female actors, but I categorically oppose relegating women to being second class citizens. It is women who are important in the world, not men. Apteva (talk) 00:02, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am saying that it would be better to split actors into male and female than to create actresses. If that sounds absurd, then that makes creating actresses as a category even more absurd. Apteva (talk) 03:13, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, I oppose splitting and think that if anyone inadvertently or on purpose creates a subcategory of actress, such as List of actresses of Kuwait, that it be made a category of actor, not a category of actresses. Apteva (talk) 04:38, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Apteva, what do you mean? Why should a subcategory of actress not be a sub-category of Category:Actresses? An actress is "a female actor" (source=Shorter Oxford English Dictionary), so if we have categories of female actors, why treat them any differently to the other occupations under Category:Women by occupation?
It appears to me that like many other participants in this discussion, you are confusing the decision of whether to have gendered categories for actors with the question of what titles to use.
If we create gendered categories for women actors, then we can decide whether to call them "actresses", "female actors", or "women in acting" (like Category:Women in politics), or something else ... but the titling decision is secondary to the decision on whether to have categories.
Separately from deciding whether to create categories for "female actors"/"actresses", we can also decide whether to create Category:Male actors etc. But whether we have gendered categories for male and/or female actors, Category:Actors remains a common category for actors of whatever gender, just as we do with all other occupation categories.
Your comment above at 00:02 13 November suggests most of your concerns relate to the word "actress". I have no particular view either way on that term, but I respect that it arises strong feelings in some editors, so I would not oppose using something "female actor". So, if we used "Female actor", would you object to the existence of Category:Female actors and subcats? --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 11:20, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I have yet to see anyone offer any explanation of why we should not seperate actors by gender when we seperate singers by gender. Until someone presents some sort of argument for this I will find it very hard to believe we should have one system for actors and a different one for singers.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:16, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia's job is to report the world as it is reported in reliable sources. As editors, our job is neither to oppose discrimination nor to support, but to report the facts and interpretations in reliable sources. If men and women shared roles in the theatre, there would be no point in categorising them separately, but the careers of actors are entirely gendered. Look at the roles played by the 5 women I listed above: Judy Dench, Reese Witherspoon, Meryl Streep, Kate Winslet, Julia Roberts. I can't find a single male role played by any one of them. Why does NaBUru38 describe this as "pointing differences where there aren't"??? What on earth is going on here? Why do editors such as NaBUru38 appear determined to deny that acting is a gendered profession? --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 00:39, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yet another editor who conflates the question of whether to categorise actors by gender with the subsidiary issue of what name we use for any such category.
Oppose using "actress" to refer to female actors. Using this kind of diminutive suffix contributes to the sexist and non-neutral impression that female actors shouldn't be taken as seriously as the male ones, and the acting industry itself has moved away from this sort of language in the names of its awards. I don't have a strong opinion about whether or not to break the acting categories into subcategories by gender, but if they are split in this way it should be done in an equal manner ("male actors" and "female actors", not "actors" and "female actors"). —David Eppstein (talk) 01:05, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Split this is a very common way to categorise people, so there is no reason to not do it for actors also. The roles are very clearly split by gender. I am not oppose to the use of the term actress, but female actors would be satisfactory alongside the male actors. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:14, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Split. Sheesh. The fact that you can come up with specific examples of situations where women play male roles and vice versa doesn't mean that acting isn't predominantly gendered. Those are unusual cases; most people in the acting profession play roles specifically meant for their gender. And has been pointed out, awards are even given based on gender. I feel that this discussion has been dominated by people trying to argue something that is manifestly not true in the hopes of driving everyone else to exhaustion trying to prove something that would be common sense outside of Wikipedia. I really hope we don't end up with someone counting the !votes and saying that since X percent think acting is gendered and Y percent think it's not, Wikipedia can't take a position on that so we must do nothing.
And I also agree with using the word "actress". Wikipedia is not for remaking society (which is not a WP:ISNOT but perhaps should be). The term is used and the fact that you would rather it wasn't isn't a reason to treat it like it's not. Ken Arromdee (talk) 21:03, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but in the actual business of entertainment it is actor period. This is an attempt to simply place Wikipedia in a position of deciding such when it should be going by the most common use and that is indeed actor not actress.--Amadscientist (talk) 06:24, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Someone put into the guideline that "actresses" was not needed six years ago.[7] Why would it be more useful today than it was in 2006? Anyone who gets out onto a stage is an actor. Why call some of them actors and some of them actresses in a category? As a category, why not just leave them all as actors? They all put on a costume and recite lines in front of an audience. Why is gender important? It is not like female heads of state where there are only a few, and making a category is useful, it is more like tall actors and short actors, with half in each category. Not a useful distinction. I just do not see the point of putting Robin Wright into one category and Robin Williams into another. Apteva (talk) 03:14, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Simply put, because with rare exceptions men play men and women play women. Gender is very defining in acting, I'd say more so than any other profession. There plainly is a distinction. To disacknolwedge that is foolish.oknazevad (talk) 14:31, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So you admit this is about defining what gender role you wish to assign to women in theatre, film and television. Your opinion is far superior to the people in those positions, who hire and produce. I suggest doing some research and forgetting ones own opinion on this. I have said my piece and cast my vote. But if this changes more than just a category changes.--Amadscientist (talk) 06:30, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Amadscientist, how about you try a little basic research yourself?
Oknazevad's point is not about wikipedia editors trying to assign roles. It is about the reality of how those responsible for assigning roles in this occupation do their job, and the evidence is that gender is a defining factor. Surely even a mad scientist can pay some attention to the evidence? --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 16:27, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Split. When was the last time that males had equal chances at female roles or females had equal chances at male roles? Shakespeare, when males had 100% chance of both and females had 0% chance of both? Unlike height, which can change over time and which has no clear boundaries, whether you have XX chromosomes or XY chromosomes is permanent and just almost always unambiguous. Nyttend (talk) 22:51, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Split. Of all professions acting is more than any other defined by the performer's gender. To act otherwise (pardon the pun) is stupid. Whether or not to use the term "actress" is far less important; I'd be fine with "fenale actor" as its perfectly descriptive. Actress is still used commonly, though, and it's persistence is likely a result of the defining nature of gender in acting. But that just re-emphasizes the fact that not having separate categories is a bit of foolishness that doesn't reflect reality. Wikipedia shouldn't advocate changes. oknazevad (talk) 14:31, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Split per BrownHairedGirl (I was actually leaning the other way before I read her response). With the general grumble that Wikipedia should have been paying its developers to overhaul the antiquated category system to have a decent, usable display comparable to a well-designed template and allow seamless integration of subcategories, to the point where this vote would have no real effect because you could view things either way anyway. Wnt (talk) 15:15, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose The use of the term actress is not just offensive it is meant to seperate by gender in a way meant to descriminate. Historicly the reason the term is just actor is because for many years women were not allowed on the stage and when they finally were the distinction was meant to notify the audience at a time when some would still not want to watch a woman perform. Yes, men have and still do perform female roles and women play male roles. Parts that were written for a male have been altered to allow a female performer to step into the role. There are a number of exapmles. Sigorney Weaver in Alien portrays a character that was written as a male lead. In theatre there have been a number of male roles going to females, like the character of Dr. Scott in The Rocky Horror Show. This is less about gender and more about professionalism. The term is "actor" not actress. As a male seamstress I can tell you there is no such thing as Seamster. Should we have a category for male seamstress (probably don't have either category but that is still a good point I believe) There are other examples but to me this is stepping back Wikipedia and not improving it.--Amadscientist (talk) 21:33, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Part of this argument conflates the question of whether to categorise actors by gender with the question of what terminology to use for the gendered categories. We can call it Category:Actresses, Category:Women in acting, Category:Women actors, Category:Female actors or whatever ... but the first question is whether to have such a category. Amadscientist's reference to Sigourney Weaver is yet another example of cherry-picking, or the or the fallacy of incomplete evidence, a practice repeatedly used by those opposed to categorising actors by gender. A brief scrutiny of Sigourney Weaver's career shows that Wikipedia lists ~56 film roles which she has played: AFAICS, every one those roles is female, apart from the male role she played in the four Alien films. All of her 10 television roles are female characters. As I noted above, the 5 most recent winners of the Academy Award for Best Actress have between them played hundreds of roles, and I see not one male part in those long lists. The roles played by those actors are not limited by their nationality, yet we do categorise them by nationality ... but even though they are determined by gender, some editors go extraordinary lengths to deny this easily demonstrable fact. What is going on here? Why are some editors so adamantly opposed to categorisation by gender that they repeatedly deny reality? --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 16:47, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Those male roles amount to less than 8% of her career, and Weaver is exceptional in having played that many male roles. Most leading actresses play no male roles at all.
My point is that you appear to think that Ellen Ripley was a "male role". I didn't know that we had a representative from the 1950s. — Hex(❝?!❞)19:07, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What you call cherry picking is what I call a simple example of only one reason. I gave others and there is more. However I concede that, while the profession itself referres to actors without gender, the Acadamy Awards themselves do refer to "actress". What is going on here Hairgirl is that we are at a period of change on this particular subject and while you may feel you have tyhe correct usage, others feel there is no real reason for an encyclopedia to use, what many feel is an outdated termonology. Most of what you and others give as example is the role itself, but as I have said it isn't about gender. This is about a profession. I strongly urge editors to remember that we set the rules here and if we decide to use the term actress then that is what consensus determines. However, if we decide to use the term male or female actor, that as well is acceptable. Reality? Huh....is that anything like "truth"? Just who's reality or truth are we to go by?--Amadscientist (talk) 09:09, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Cherry-picking is taking one outlier example to bolster a point, rather than looking at the broader patterns. That's what you did, and it's just one example of the denial-of-reality which I was commenting on. I don't know what to make of your statement that "it isn't about gender. This is about a profession". Of course it's about a profession (nobody disputes that); but the issue under discussion here is whether gender is a defining attribute of those in that profession. If it is defining, then we should categorise by it; if not, we shouldn't. You say that "it isn't about gender" ... so how do you explain that 5 most recent winners of the Academy Award for Best Actress have only played roles in their own gender? I look fwd to your answer on that. And no, I do not "feel that I have the correct usage". I explicitly said that there are several possible alternatives for naming such a category, and I would welcome a separate discussion on which terminology to use. So far as I can see, the situation is that "actress" is the historical term for women in acting and has some degree of continuing usage, but is being replaced in some usages (maybe many/most usages) by terms such as "female actor". It would be interesting to discuss how to handle this, and see how the balance of evidence shapes up, but at this point I have no preference either way. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 13:03, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
PS Amadascientist says: "the profession itself referres to actors without gender, the Acadamy Awards themselves do refer to actress". This statement portrays the Academy awards as some sort of exception in using a gender divide in its awards system, whereas the reality is that a gender divide in acting awards is routine in this profession. See for example the 199 awards listed in Category:Awards for actresses ... and note that the Screen Actors Guild (a trade union composed of actors) issues separate awards to "male actors" and "female actors". The gender divide in awards is not something imposed from outside the profession; it is how the profession views itself. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 13:16, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
LOL! I stand corrected. Gotta stop using that analogy now. Dang. Anyway, I have no objection to a female actor category. Yes...there are female actors. But the term actress is no longer the most common usage. I took a quick poll at a number of places to see what the current thought is. Actor was was waht every single person in the profession that answered came up with. Several acknowledged that actress is an older term and is no longer in mainstream use. As I said, the Acadamy Awards began in 1929 and yet the award itself is male and oddly enough the staue given for the SAG awards is called "The Actor" also a male figure. Again the use of the term actress was used to differentiate the male from the female performer in a manner that was a put down and a lower status. My main objection is policy based. Actor is the true common usage. If you want to have a category for "female" actor.....that goes right along with what I am saying.--Amadscientist (talk) 08:59, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Actually a google search shows that actress is still by far the most common usage. However your position does show this is a very difficult discussion to disect. The majority is for splitting the category, and even among those who say they are opposed, some such as Amadscientist are willing to allow the category to split, and only have an issue with the terminology used.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:56, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand
If this issue is the need or desire to have female actors be searchable separate from male actors, then why don't you take the simple route with this? Make one category be titled Male actors and the other Female actors, problem solved. Then you don't have to worry about possibly offensive terminology like actress and it also keeps the whole thing neutral, as you're referring to both groups by gender, rather than just one. SilverserenC10:53, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed and will soon be archived:Closed - There is no chance of reaching a consensus for a policy change here. This page is for discussing changes to policy and as no change is likely, there is no point in continuing it here. Jeepday (talk) 13:06, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Please see the essay WP:Hyphens and dashes. It is forward looking as currently Wikipedia extends the use of endashes to places that hyphens are normally used - in proper nouns.
Support with browser/keyboard wp:Accessibility: Many keyboards do not have dashes, but hyphens are everywhere, which also contributes to the wp:COMMONNAME of many topics to still contain hyphens, even though trendy concepts might consider new partnerships should use dashes, while some marriages have used hyphenated compound surnames since prior centuries. Wikipedia should aim toward common punctuation, found on many computer keyboards, rather than relatively exotic symbols. -Wikid77 (talk) 07:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Bizarre comment, that. Nobody has suggested messing with the hyphens in married names. And most keyboards do have en dashes, in one form or another. My Mac keybaords have had it at option-hyphen since 1984, and Macs are not altogether rare. On Windows, it's harder, but since nobody has asked anyone to enter an en dash, and they're not necessary to access articles, even Windows users don't have any accessibility issues because of them. They're certainly not "exotic". Dicklyon (talk) 23:57, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing bizarre in noting a hyphen key is much easier for wp:Accessibility than special key-codes, and some browser fonts show the en dash as an hyphen, although a text search fails to match both. A marriage can be considered a type of partnership, and a compound surname as "Smith-Jones" does not mean Jones has been any more "Smith-ified" than in "Smith–Jones" (as compound surnames do not mean "surgically joined at the hip"). For the Michelson-Morley Experiment (light in aether), those twoscientists were collaborating with close teamwork. In fact, for the Seattle-Tacoma area, that region could be considered a "marriage" of two cities, and hence the airport is named "Sea-Tac" as a hyphenated compound word, rather than uberseparated, endashed "Sea–Tac" as if the two were tugging to stretch a rope apart. Using dashes to somehow emphasize two words are a specific form of partnership, does not stop children of a Smith-Jones marriage from taking last name "Smith-Jones", even though they might dislike one parent more than the other and would prefer "Smith——less-so-Jones". In any given situation, it is more productive to use extra words to clarify relationships, rather than force dashes to mean specific combinations, contrary to the common use of hyphens in city-to-city or scientist-to-scientist teamwork. Many Wikipedia editors do not see the need to force en dashes, especially where hyphens have been used for decades or centuries in the most-common form of names. Plus, some writers prefer dashes as mainly punctuation of parenthetical phrases, noting a (formerly) clear separation, as with Seattle–Tacoma being a separate town in the Seattle-Tacoma area. Now there seems to be a need to use double-hyphen Template:J to separate just Template:J then being named on the other side of the double-hyphen, which is clearly different than a teamwork hyphen or endash. Any imagined clarity from endashes is an illusion or systemic bias, requiring spaced-dash as the next step. -Wikid77 (talk) 07:34, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose hyphens in titles
It's illogical that we should use the correct punctuation in articles' bodies but not in their titles. Yes, it is hard to type dashes, but redirects from titles with hyphens fixes that. David1217What I've done02:07, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There are several. One is because it is impossible to have a URL that includes the endash - it is not a valid URL character and needs to be escaped. Another is that it is not on the keyboard, and so if I type in a hyphen there is nothing there. Apteva (talk) 06:50, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe it's a limitation of your browser, or a feature of mine, but I actually see it, actually click it, actually load it, and actually end up with it as I pasted it there. -- JHunterJ (talk) 02:13, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Both of our browsers do the same thing. They silently correct it before sending it over the Internet to the above escaped form. There are only a few characters that can occur in URLs, the rest need to be escaped. The characters that can be used are in URL, but they are a-z, A-Z, 0-9, -, _, and ~. There are other characters that are used for special purposes, #, %, &, ?, and others, for example, and need to be escaped if they are used in a file name. Apteva (talk) 00:41, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Unnecessary and inconsistent. Redirects correct the issue, and more modern browsers should be able to display en dashes in URLs, anyway. CtP (t • c) 22:19, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Totally unnecessary. On a Mac keyboard the en dash can be produced by ⌥Opt+-. On Microsoft Windows, with a numeric keypad, an en dash may be entered as Alt together with 0150 on the keypad. On a Windows laptop, with no keypad, enter "–" in the editing area or (if creating an article) in the search box—I am now using a laptop but have no problem entering Indonesia 1945–1968 or the em dash (using —) in this sentence. See Dash#Common dashes for more details. Peter Brown (talk) 23:24, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No purpose is served in having different style in the title and in the text. We even have provisions for displaying italics in titles. — kwami (talk) 02:43, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I neither support nor oppose hyphens in titles. If the title of an article should use a dash if it was not the title of an title then it should use one in the title as well. If it should use a hyphen in other places, then it should likewise for the title. If an en dash or em dash is used in a title than a redirect should be created to point to the title so that readers do not have to worry about typing an unusual character to find the article. Because of the conflicts over the use of a dash or hyphen if there is a common name that does not use either, it should be preferred. For example if a space or a slash would work as well, I would prefer the use of those characters. If either hyphens or dashes may be used for a title then the similar to other naming conventions the approach should follow the approach used by other articles of the same class or context, similar to what is done for making choices on disambiguation.
It is not a particularly good strategy to avoid a correct name by choosing an incorrect one just because it avoids controversy. In the lamest edit wars it proposed using Mexican War, without realizing that that is actually the most common name... Apteva (talk) 11:44, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion of hyphens in titles
As can be seen there is already always a redirect from one to the other. Using the title at a hyphen improves usability as it allows typing in the actual title. This is less important in getting to the article than it is in other uses for the article. Obviously wikilinks to articles so named can either use an endash or a hyphen, for example, within another article, the link can be [[War in Afghanistan (2001-present)|War in Afghanistan (2001–present)]], or simply go through the redirect, at War in Afghanistan (2001–present). Apteva (talk) 01:31, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hyphens are correctly used in hyphenated names, such as Julia Louis-Dreyfus and the comet Hale-Bopp. Endashes should not be extended to use in proper nouns. Instead common use is the standard to use, as stipulated in WP:TITLE.
Support hyphens in nouns to match mainstream usage: Frankly, all the retro-fitting of endashes into long-term hyphenated names is really bizarre, peculiar, and I would not be surprised to hear a comedian quip, "Wikidashia" because the forcing of the awkward dashes into age-old terms is so unusual, off-beat, freaky and fringe, that it seems like some cult has envisioned Dashotopia with Wikipedia as its breeding ground for "Der Dashter–Race". For years, I have avoided the dash/hyphen discussions because I imagined that, surely, common sense would conclude how the en-dashed words were relatively rare exceptions, and hyphens should be favored as they have been in the world at large, for hundreds of years. Long before I first edited Wikipedia in mid-2001, I had heard the term "hyphenated Americans" and instantly understood the basic meaning, but it is another example of hyphen usage dating back centuries, as in "Mexican-American" (hence "Mexican-American War"). -Wikid77 (talk) 07:54, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Bizarre comment, that. Nobody has suggested using en dashes in hyphenated-American constructs. And I'm pretty sure the Mexican–American War was not about Mexican-Americans. This is a place where understanding what the text means is actually facilitated by the punctuation. Similarly, nobody has suggested using an en dash in the hyphenated names of persons, as you seem to think. If you see an en dash between two surnames, you can be sure it refers to two persons, not to a person with a hyphenated name. Dicklyon (talk) 23:53, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There are almost always exceptions. In this case if you see a hyphen in a comet you can be 100% certain it is two people, because that is how comets are named - a space indicates one person with a hyphenated name.[8]Apteva (talk) 11:29, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't true, though. It's just very basic logic that even a small child could understand: If people often have hyphenated names, and there is no barrier to entry by hyphenated-name people into the field of astronomy, then you obviously cannot count on a hyphen in a comet that is named after one or more people to consistently be a divider between the names of people rather than a hyphen in a hyphenated name of a single person. Such an assumption is absurd on its face. — SMcCandlishTalk⇒ ɖ⊝כ⊙þ Contrib.00:42, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Partial Support Though I disagree with Apteva on current reading of how TITLE and MOS interact on this and do not consider the hyphen to really be part of the spelling, I do think that hyphens can be used in proper nouns. Especially with regard to birds and name of people. Not quite sure where I stand with wars, airports and the like. PaleAqua (talk) 02:50, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
All I am saying is if a google search shows no one or even less than half using a dash, wp should not go against the grain and use a dash. With comets it is ludicrous to use a dash, with airports it is unusual. But we do need some standard, and common use is what we have been using, why change that - it certainly keeps us out of trouble. Apteva (talk) 04:16, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Common use is not necessarily what the MOS uses. If we are going to sit around and decide which punctuation is used by 51% of reliable sources and match every single article to the reliable sources in whichever narrow field the article happens to relate to, we may as well just change wikipedia to be the encyclopedia of punctuation, because nobody would have time to actually write articles. AgnosticAphidtalk23:57, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And what exactly is wrong with having an encyclopedia that uses correct punctuation? What it would do is change wikipedia to using correct names for things instead of either using typewriter style hyphens or goofy dashes where dashes do not belong. I see no problem whatsoever in determining the most common usage - we do it all the time in deciding title names - and almost all of them are really cut and dry and no where close to even 60 or 70%. For example, is it Hugo Chávez or Hugo Chavez? 9/10 news stories use Chavez, but we have decided to use instead the correct name Chávez. We always have a choice between correct and most common. There are no other choices - MOS preferred spelling is not one of the options. No one ever needs to be slowed down in creating an article by wondering whether to use a hyphen, space, dash, or slash - just create the article, and someone, sometime will do the research to find out the correct title, and will move it appropriately, based on those two criteria, correct name or common use, either by just moving it if it is non-controversial, or with an WP:RM if it is - but we need to stop using MOS as a reason for changing article titles - the MOS rarely proposes either the correct title or the most common title, and we end up with a lame edit war. Apteva (talk) 10:45, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You're confusing your personal view of "correct" punctuation (which hardly anyone else here agrees with) for what AgnosticAphid actually describes, which is marginal majority punctuation. One of the many flaws in your argument are that we know for a fact that punctuation, spelling, grammar and style have been eroded in popular publishing and mainstream culture over the last 20 years by the advent of the Internet, and a million bloggers which poor writing skills self-publishing without editors, and an entire generation of journalists growing up with a much weaker than heretofore grasp of punctuation, spelling, grammar and style, compounded with increasingly tight deadlines as news outlets try to compete with less formal online news sources (meaning even the editors don't have time to properly clean up the bad prose that makes it into print). Going by what you can turn up on Google is even more of a WP:GOOGLE reliability, verifiability and undue weight problem when it comes to these style matters than probably any other possible topic, simply due to the nature of the beast medium. — SMcCandlishTalk⇒ ɖ⊝כ⊙þ Contrib.00:50, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No one has been able to find an example of this. I have checked common use for many proper nouns and have yet to find one. Bridges came close but failed. I am not suggesting we say "proper nouns do not use endashes" I am suggesting we say "proper nouns defer to common usage, see WP:TITLE", which says the same thing - use common usage. Normally exceptions are trivial to find, but while no one has been able to suggest any exception it is better to err on the side of caution. But if anyone has an example of a proper noun, that in common usage, uses an endash, I would love to see it. Apteva (talk) 20:19, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Again, not opposing hyphens in proper nouns, just opposing Apteva's nonsense. He thinks that if a style like ours that uses en dashes is in a minority, then it is an error. That's crazy talk. Dicklyon (talk) 00:01, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. It is simply wrong to say categorically that proper names do not use hyphens. What about, for instance, the Seeliger–Donker-Voet scheme? You would change it to all hyphens, even though that would destroy the ability to distinguish between the one name that's hyphenated and the other that isn't? Even with everyone's most disagreeable example, Comet Hale–Bopp, this problem arises. Unlike people who would be reading IAU publications, not everyone here would know that "Hale-Bopp" isn't just a named for a single person if we were to change it to a hyphen. I'll concede that not all Wikipedia users are aware of the dash-vs-hyphen distinction that's being made, but is is a valuable distinction. The MOS is not required to follow guidelines and policies like COMMONNAME that are applicable to encyclopedic content.
On the other hand, perhaps we could propose abolishing the Manual of Style. Then we wouldn't have to worry about a dictatorship of the MOS and everyone could just choose whichever punctuation or capitalization struck their fancy, google's fancy, or the IAU's fancy.AgnosticAphidtalk23:54, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If the MOS had no guidance on spelling it would still be spelled with a hyphen. It is not names of birds or people that are a problem, it is the names of other things. It is really not the providence of the MOS to teach spelling, punctuation, grammar, or good writing. All of that belongs in essays and wiktionary. Apteva (talk) 11:37, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
An extensive check has been performed on common use of hyphens and endashes in proper nouns. There are a several types of proper nouns that are commonly hyphenated.
Names, such as Julia Louis-Dreyfus. These exclusively use hyphens.
The biggest problem is the conflict that extending endashes to proper nouns creates between WP:TITLE and WP:MOS, which is not addressed by adding a sentence to the MOS to not use WP:TITLE for titles. Following common usage does address that conflict, and removes the conflict. Apteva (talk) 01:31, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is a combination of hyphenation which the MOS already supports, with false claims that have been repeatedly debunked. At least be honest enough to state the actual changes that you want. — kwami (talk) 03:51, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
3) Using hyphens as a substitute for dashes
Hyphens are conveniently entered from the keyboard, and are a suitable substitute, other than for FA's and FAC's.
Support hyphens for endashes
(To retain '#' auto-numbers, indent comments with '#::' not just colons).
Support hyphens to represent endashes: Again, for browser/keyboard wp:Accessibility issues, I support the treatment of hyphens as endashes, such as having a hyphenated redirect title for an endash title: "The Hyphen-/–Endash Battle" matching with 2 hyphens "-/-". Also, when page-number ranges contain hyphens, then they could be left in text as equivalent to ranges with dashes. -Wikid77 (talk) 07:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But hyphen redirects are already standard practice, which is why we don't have any relevant accessibility problem at issue here. Dicklyon (talk) 00:06, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is not about titles. This is about writing 1312-27, and it being acceptable to leave as close enough. From below it seems that almost no one cares. Apteva (talk) 00:48, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is a substantial difference between stopping people from fixing them, and saying that hyphens are acceptable – and here we are talking more about 1846-48 being acceptable, than from changing comet Hale-Bopp to the inappropriate Hale–Bopp (with a dash instead of a hyphen). Being acceptable means there is no reason to change it - like rewording a sentence so it says "like a sentence rewording". So it would not prohibit the change but it would point out that the change is unnecessary. Changing Hale-Bopp to Hale–Bopp is a totally different ball game than changing 1846-48 to 1846–48, as changing a hyphen in a date range is changing to correct punctuation. Hale-Bopp already is correct punctuation, which can be confirmed from any dictionary that includes the name. Apteva (talk) 23:09, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is an acceptable substitute, but according to New Hart's Rules, the correct punctuation to use is an endash, which they call an en rule. See p. 79, which uses 1939–45 as an example.[9] It does not say that a hyphen can be used, although clearly it both can be and often is used. But advice on punctuation and good writing belong in essays, not in the MOS. Apteva (talk) 00:41, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
support It's the simplest and most natural way. I can type a en-dash easily enough, but the standard should be what everyone knows how to do, without having to think about it or know our rules. It seems absurd to me to worry about typographic presentation given the current state of browser rendering and display technology. WP is not print, and clarity is sufficient. The only standardization I would support for typography is not mixing styles in the same article. DGG ( talk ) 22:30, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This proposal is based on the wise advice that consistency within an article is more important than consistency between articles. For example, New Hart's Rules advises to consider leaving alone a consistent style that differs from your own. Apteva (talk) 20:23, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Any hyphen substitutions that can be improved by replacement with endashes, emdashes, or minus signs should be, even outside of FA's and FAC's. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:17, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Although it is perfectly acceptable for any editor to use a hyphen instead of an en dash, it's not OK to undo the work of editors that then make improvements by correcting those to en dash where the en dash usage is in accord with MOS:DASH. This has always been the way the MOS works; nobody needs to know it, follow it, or care about it, but they should not fight those who do. Dicklyon (talk) 00:03, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Accessibility is not a problem. On a Mac keyboard the en dash can be produced by ⌥Opt+-. On Microsoft Windows, with a numeric keypad, an en dash may be entered as Alt together with 0150 on the keypad. On a Windows laptop, with no keypad, enter "–" in the editing area or (if creating an article) in the search box—I am now using a laptop but have no problem entering Indonesia 1945–1968 or the em dash (using —) in this sentence. See Dash#Common dashes for more details. Peter Brown (talk) 23:34, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No one's forcing any editor to do anything. But gnomes can come along and change typography so it complies with MOS (not to mention the major styleguides in North America, the UK, and Australia). Windows users: number lock off; press alt key, type in 0150. Or use the button just below the edit box. Tony(talk) 09:07, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
More nonsense. Since this has been spelled out to Apteva over and over, I can only conclude that he is making this proposal in bad faith. — kwami (talk) 03:46, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Allowing people to use incorrect punctuation is one thing, but forcing everyone to use incorrect punctuation? I cannot support such a proposal. --Cgtdk (talk) 19:32, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The very fact that this proposal finds it necessary to differentiate FAs from the rest makes it dead on arrival. Promoting laziness on the part of editors because they aren't going for the bronze star is not a good thing. Resolute22:44, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I find that oppose and support above incorrectly frame the question. Hyphens are much easier to type in compared to dashes for most editors and thus they should be allowed to use them when creating, and editing articles. Even if they accidentally replace correct dashes with hyphens or correct hyphens with dashes. Though should be restricted from just bulk converting to a form that disagrees from current consensus. Also, we should not make typography gnomes wait until an article is a FAC before applying polish, but instead allow them to fix them whenever.
This is actually the same view being advocated in the "Oppose hyphens for endashes" section above. No one in this debate has ever proposed forcing users to enter en-dashes and somehow punishing them if they don't. We all expect non-geeky editors to typically enter hyphens, because keyboards have hyphen keys, and expect that gnomes will fix it later. This is already what happens, and no one ever has a cow about it but Apteva and maybe two other editors (Wikid, and I forget who the other was). — SMcCandlishTalk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib.10:10, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The disagreement is related to which hyphens are actually supposed to be hyphens and "fixing" them instead "breaks" them. The question is how does anyone determine what is correct? The MOS certainly does not offer correct advice - and offers incorrect examples. Apteva (talk) 22:35, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As is pointed out, consistency within articles and subject groups is more important than consistency across Wikipedia. If there is one hyphen that should be an endash, it is proposed that it simply be left until the article reaches FA or FAC status, as edits are expensive, and there are far more important things to fix in GA articles than adding three pixels to the length of a hyphen. If a page has 19 hyphens that should be endashes and one that is an endash, or one that is a hyphen that should be an endash and 19 that should endashes and are endashes, it is better to make them all the same than which choice is made - either all twenty hyphens and all twenty endashes are acceptable, whichever the editor fixing the page chooses. Apteva (talk) 01:31, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also change dashes to commas or parentheses: I would also note that endashes or emdashes could be changed, depending on context, into sets of parentheses or commas—except in direct quotations—provided the change in punctuation does not alter the meaning of the phrase. Especially, the format style to precede an endash with a non-breaking space, as " –" could be substituted as a comma, to reduce confusion in the formatting of the text. In many cases, an endash has been written into a text phrase, without the appropriate non-breaking space connecting the endash to the preceding text, and so replacement with a comma might be simpler or clearer than the logistics needed to maintain the use of endashes, preceded by non-breaking spaces, in that text. In general, dashes are very tedious to edit, maintain, and verify, due to a lack of keyboard dash characters, and some browsers which display endashes as hyphens on the browser screen. -Wikid77 (talk) 08:52, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Seriously. I asked, this was the answer. So here it is. I would like to see the opinions on at least 50-60 editors on this issue. Not just the half dozen who I know are going to oppose it and try to stifle any discussion on the issue too. Apteva (talk) 06:54, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, JHunterJ pointed Apteva here to get broader discussion; however there is beating a dead horse issue going on here as well (give what appears to be a number of times the editor has been told that consensus favors the house style instead of what Apteva proposes here). --MASEM (t) 06:59, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
See above. AGF, though, applies. Here is what I would like to see - out of 50 to 60 editors, how many agree or disagree with the above. Is that an unreasonable request? Apteva (talk) 07:18, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You've just about exhausted any reasonable assumption of good faith. JHunterJ, in addition to pointing you here, also explicitly said "Let the RFC/U and AN/I finish." You did neither, instead rushing to yet another forum to shop your wares. PowersT13:19, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Had that been the intent, it would have been far better to use English that made that clear. I do not see that was the intent. I was not asking what should I do after the RFC and ANI close, I was asking what should I do now? To put it into context. JH had closed an RM that I had opened. SOP if someone closes an RM, there are two recourses, one open an MRV, but MRV specifically asks to ask the closing admin first. Hence the dialog at JH's talk page. I need to remind everyone that I have a content question. RFC/U and ANI are only about conduct, not about content. If I am wrong about the content, a simple no will suffice. As I see it there is only name calling, which is never the way to resolve content disputes. See WP:FOC. Apteva (talk) 20:11, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Too late to stop this thread even if harrassed by other editors: Because the dash/hyphen issue affects multiple guidelines (wp:MOS) and policies (wp:TITLE), then here is the proper venue to discuss system-wide policy implications. Trying to censor discussion now, would be like inviting reporters to a major exposé and advising them all to leave now, because someone was accused of revealing too much truth. There's no stopping this discussion, at this point, since many editors have dealt with copy-editing to force dashes everywhere, and assess the burden of extra labor that it entails. -Wikid77 (talk) 09:53, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think I can speak for the majority of editors who neither know nor care about the distinction between hyphens and dashes... the only "rule" should be:
"If you are not sure whether to use a hyphen or a dash when writing an article, don't worry about it; Another editor will come along later and fix any punctuation mistakes you make."
Very true. But how many would like to see airports spelled the way airports are spelled, comets the way comets are spelled, and Mexican-American War spelled the way most people spell it - with a hyphen? Mexican-American War has been moved back and forth from a hyphen to an endash about a half a dozen times each way. [Actually 94% of books use Mexican War, though.] The correct procedure to follow, if there is likely to be a dispute, is to open an RM. It does not help to make side remarks about being disruptive. It is never disruptive to suggest an improvement. If it is in fact not an improvement, there will likely be less support than if it is. Find out. Edison would never have invented the light bulb if after 100, 200, or 800 times said, well, this has been tried, there is no use in trying again.[10]Apteva (talk) 20:11, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pretty sure that most people "spell" those as "two words with a short horizontal line between them" and don't really think about it much beyond that point. — Hex(❝?!❞)00:19, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is disruptive however to try to open discussion for a possible improvement when previous recent attempts have failed, which is what the issue is here (that's pretty much WP:DEADHORSE). The reason there is an RFC/U and a ANI against you is because you don't seem to have gotten the message that this has been discussed and consensus shows that change is not likely going to happen any time soon, particularly if you are using the same set of arguments for proposing the change. --MASEM (t) 20:16, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
False or invalid consensus to use dashes: The point which some seem to miss is that a "wp:local consensus" to force use of dashes cannot override a broad consensus which favors policy wp:COMMONNAME to name hyphenated words with hyphens, not some other dash character (nor replace commas with semicolons to add 3-4 pixels more). The so-called "consensus" to put dashes into hyphenated common names is invalid, per wp:CONSENSUS. -Wikid77 (talk) 09:53, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
See the analogy of Edison and the light bulb. I do not care how many times someone proposes that Kiev be moved to Kyiv or any other dispute, and no one else should either. But to ask someone to not ask the question is inappropriate. The fact is that out of 3,000 active editors probably less than a dozen have expressed an opinion on hyphens and endashes, yet everyone uses them, and is affected. A wider discussion is clearly warranted. I am asking for 50 or 60 responses here. That to me would be more representative. We get 100 votes on RfA's, surely we can get half that. Apteva (talk) 20:35, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Given the fact that most Wikipedians probably don't know (or care about) the difference between a dash and a hyphen (and have never even heard the terms en-dash and an em-dash)... expecting that many people to comment on the issue is unrealistic. Blueboar (talk) 22:48, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That said... here is my take on the issue: I simply ignore the MOS. I know there is (apparently) a distinction between dashes and hyphens, but I don't know or care what it is. As far as I am concerned they are interchangeable. I do know that one of them is right there at the top of my keyboard... so I use that key interchangeably for both. I leave it to anal Style Nazis other editors to correct me. Since I they both look essentially the same to me, I usually don't even notice the correction. All I ask is this: if we are talking about an article title, include a redirect so people like me can still search for and find the article by using the key that is at the top of my keyboard. Blueboar (talk) 23:23, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's a great approach except for the ignorant personal attack that was at least struck through, thanks for that. It the other approach of disruptively undoing the corrections and ignoring the consensus that's at issue. -- JHunterJ (talk) 23:57, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Don't care about that either. Since most of us can't tell the difference between dashes and hyphens, we are not particularly concerned by a slow edit war over such petty punctuation marks. We don't really find it all that disruptive for it to flip back and forth occasionally.
Then you should also be in favor of ending Apteva's disruptions. -- JHunterJ (talk)
That depends on what you think the disruption is... I think his going on and on trying to correct the MOS is disruptive (and I urge him to stop). However, I do not think it is disruptive for him to quietlyignore the MOS (and change a hyphen to a dash or a dash to a hyphen, as he thinks best). Blueboar (talk) 02:37, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have no interest in ignoring the MOS. I think the MOS should give advice on how we can have consistent articles, but I do not think the MOS should be a guide to good writing. I would prefer that it stick to things like telling us how articles are laid out and and using sentence case instead of title case, for example. And not putting quotes around blockquotes. But when it comes to giving bad advice, like spelling airports and comets with an endash, now that is just absurd. It turns out that simply assuming that proper nouns are going to use a hyphen instead of an endash will keep everyone out of trouble 100% of the time. Who knew it was that simple? Apteva (talk) 06:41, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There may be occasional exceptions to the MOS, but someone "quietly ignoring the MOS and changing a hyphen to a dash or a dash to a hyphen, as he thinks best" can indeed be disruptive. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:03, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Only if you think of the MOS as "a set of rules" to be followed... if you think of it as advice it isn't disruptive to ignore that advice.
As for consensus... I strongly suspect that if you asked the broader wikipedia community beyond those who regularly edit the MOS page, you would find that the actual consensus on the use of hyphens vs dashes is... "it doesn't really matter". Blueboar (talk) 12:59, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Only if you think of the MOS as a manual of style guidelines, actually. Treating them as, well, what?, meaningless strings of words that every individual editor can ignore makes them meaningless. Strong suspicions don't make new consensuses. New consensus makes new consensus. Otherwise, I shall strongly suspect is that everyone always agrees with me. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:05, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
<---It is probably correct that most think that hyphens and dashes do not matter, and with only a three pixel difference it is pretty hard to see why anyone would want to make a correctly used hyphen an extra three pixels longer, turning it into an incorrectly used dash. IAR is a fundamental principle we apply to make the encyclopedia better. If someone thinks it improves the encyclopedia to spell things correctly, and the MOS says to spell it wrong, well then what does that suggest? Is it better to ignore the MOS or to change the MOS? IAR suggests the former, but commonsense suggests the latter. We use hyphens for most minus signs and no one complains, yet newspapers use endashes for minus signs, to distinguish them from hyphenation. Should someone from that walk of life use endashes where they think endashes go, and uses them consistently in an article, in my view it is better to leave them. Consistency within an article is far more important than consistency between articles. Apteva (talk) 20:02, 4 December 2012 (UTC)ctua[reply]
Most of the advice in the MOS about hyphens and dashes is more like should sentences end in a preposition? And most of it is technically correct, but some involves splitting hairs where they need not be split, for example, it is common in British publications to use a spaced endash – like this – but in American publications to use an emdash—like this—instead. Such distinctions do not need to be discussed. The only advice in the MOS that is really bad about hyphens and dashes is to use any dashes in proper nouns. The correct advice would be, in my opinion, to defer to common use, thus bringing the WP:MOS in line with WP:TITLE. Hyphens in titles, is of course a subject for TITLE, not MOS, but using hyphens everywhere instead of dashes is a subject for the MOS. Apteva (talk) 20:28, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Over 60 editors have already discussed, voted, and converged
Per this archive of the new dash guideline drafting process summary, which notes that "The voting page attracted contributions from 60 editors..." That's why there's not much appetite to put up with more months of discussion and disruption driven by one editor with a novel theory that nobody and no source supports. Dicklyon (talk) 00:43, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Almost all of that discussion was about other issues. [and over a year ago] There is nothing wrong with either overturning or confirming decisions. My issue is very focused - using hyphens and endashes correctly, meaning that endashes are not used in proper nouns. And if it was such a novel theory, why would 98% of books use a hyphen? For example, a history book uses Mexican-American War (1846–1848). Clearly they are choosing which to use and where to use a hyphen, as they used a hyphen in Mexican-American War, and an endash for the dates.[11]Apteva (talk) 01:09, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The idea that "endashes are not used in proper nouns" did not come up because it is not in any of the dozens of guides to English usage that were consulted. It is your own novel idiosyncratic theory, contradicted by many sources that use en dashes in places and organizations and such named after pairs of people (for example, Richmond–San Rafael Bridge, to name one that you've noted appears with en dash in nearly half of book sources). Dicklyon (talk) 03:08, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Most style guides, including ours (until it was changed recently), simply say things like hyphenation is also used in proper nouns. We went over Richmond-San Rafael Bridge extensively. If you look at the first ten there are almost half and half, but when you look at the first hundred or so, endash fails miserably. See Talk:Richmond–San Rafael Bridge#Requested move. Apteva (talk) 06:10, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So you're saying that 25.7% of sources and WP are in error, because they're in a minority. That's really just a rejection of the idea that WP can have a style like many of these other sources have, not proof that proper names must use hyphens. That pigheaded approach of yours has received zero support from other editors. Why can't you stop pushing it so disruptively? Dicklyon (talk) 18:20, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is silly. Wikipedia chooses the spelling used most often for article titles. Saying nearly half when the actual number is not even 25.7% (that is a number that is rounded up) is inaccurate and not helpful in deciding which is the majority, and therefore which we should be using. Wikipedia is not like other sources, because it has a higher standard than other sources. Wikipedia would like to be the standard that everyone else goes to for correct and accurate information - that is in a nutshell the definition of an encyclopedia. Picking a style that is used 2% of the time, as in Mexican-American War, and even calling it that, when 94% of books use "Mexican War" instead, is not appropriate. So what is 2% of 6%? That is how many books spell Mexican War the way we do. Disruptively? No. The word disruptive does apply, though, to editors who insist on using dashes where hyphens are more appropriate, and who attempt to stifle conversation to correct this issue, and who use words like disruptive to do so. Apteva (talk) 19:33, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Apteva, I'm going to strongly suggest that 1) you read through WP:LAME to understand that you're talking about a trivial issue that is detracting from the actual editing of articles that we should be doing, and 2) recognizing that most of our readership is not going to recognize the different between a title using an endash and a title using a hyphen or consider that using one or the other is "wrong", and that it is only for internal consistent and house style that we picked one and stuck with it across titles and prose. Continuing to push the issue without any change of argument is likely going to get you restricted or blocked for a period of time since it is clear consensus has been recently established on the issue. --MASEM (t) 19:54, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, but obviously there is a right and a wrong way to suggest change. To not suggest change is worse. I see that the essay ends with the advice "people that care about the distinction between the different flavors of short horizontal lines should feel free to argue about it and generate WP:MOS pages about the topic, so long as they only involve other people that also care about the different flavors of short horizontal lines." The problem is that they had a huddle about dashes, got some of it right and some of it wrong, and then went out into article space thinking that it was up to them to fix every hyphen and dash themself, instead of trusting others to use their own common sense in applying or not applying what they had written. Apteva (talk) 20:57, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You can suggest change - just not the 3, 4, or whatever number of times that I'm guessing from the past history that you've made in relatively rapid-fire suggestion, particularly when the consensus seems to be immovable towards that change. That's called tenacious editing, and that appears to be why there's the RFC/U and ANI threads open on you. It is suggested you let the point rest for some time (months? I don't know exactly how long) as well as to find other arguments that may be more convincing to that change, and then propose it. Otherwise, your proposal is going to fall on deaf ears no matter how loud you try to make the point. You may be annoyed about the endash/hyphen issue, but, again, most readers care less as long as they type what they want in the search bar and get to an article that talks about what they searched for. It's likely worrying about a 10 cent overcharge on a $1000 bill. There's the principle of the thing, yes, but in the long run does it matter? --MASEM (t) 21:03, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Even pickier. I was tenacious, others thought I was tendentious. Tendentious only applies if "it does not conform to the neutral point of view" or "tends to frustrate proper editorial processes and discussions". None of which apply.[disputed] (others may disagree) Apteva (talk) 00:55, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Apteva: Wikipedia requires a good community to build the encyclopedia. Vandals and incompetent editors are easily handled—what destroys a community is endless bickering. Let's say the previous discussions were all wrong, and the conclusions are invalid. It is still the case that the horse has been sufficiently beaten, and the matter must be dropped. I do care about typography, but obviously the appropriate length of a horizontal line boils down to a matter of opinion—further arguing the point would be disruptive. Try again in 12 months. Johnuniq (talk) 00:34, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
NP. Or since this is year end, in 2014. But if it goes through this go around I will not have to bring it up again. Right now the issue that matters is 1/1, with the oppose vote of questioned validity. Apteva (talk) 00:55, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Apteva, have you considered what will happen if one of the people who oppose your viewpoint is as passionate as you are? Are we as a community supposed to suffer literally endless debates over the size of a dash because one or more editors can't shut up? Far worse than getting stuck with the "wrong" version of MOS is an editor with the attitude that he should keep arguing until he gets his way, no matter what. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:31, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's a great theory, but in practice it is worse to "not raise your hand" when someone has a question, or to "sit on your hands" when someone sees an error. I would guess that 99% of wikipedia readers either trust what they see or feel powerless to correct errors they see, even if they know they are looking at an error. It is obvious from the below that 99% of wikipedians think this is one of the lamest issues ever. If there is anyone that is passionate about anything, they do not make a very good wikipedia editor for that subject, and are advised to stick to subjects that they are less passionate about. Endashes and hyphens are not a subject that I am passionate about. They are a subject that I am knowledgeable about. Apteva (talk) 03:24, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Restoring edit that was censored from the above discussion:I'm pretty sure the horse is just resting. It'll get back up in a minute and start arguing about small horizontal lines again...
I can't believe there are actually 60 people who give a flying fuck about this non-issue.... Wait, should I have used a different small horizontal line in "non-issue"? Am I in trouble now? Beeblebrox (talk) 03:51, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Self appointed civility police, please do not remove this again. You may not like hearing from those of us who think such discussions are an epic waste of time, but trust me, there are more of us than there are of you and it is not appropriate to summarily remove comments from a discussion. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:09, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
'tis astonishing, isn't it? I really can't believe the amount of discussion squandered over a difference that I usually can't even detect unless someone points it out.—Kww(talk) 02:35, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Emerging consensus about hyphens versus endashes
Within just a few days of discussing this hyphen/endash topic, by 5 December 2012 it became obvious there are some clear issues which have emerged to show rough consensus:
The endash is considered definitely different than a hyphen character, especially in distinction with computer devices which key-in or match one or the other but not both characters.
The hyphen is widely supported on keyboards, while the endash character is a very rare key on computer devices, confirming wp:Accessibility problems for endashes.
Many users do not think the choice between a hyphen and an endash is a significant issue for Wikipedia to debate, nor to stipulate.
Consequently, there is no consensus to favor the use of endash over the historical use of hyphens, or vice versa, and so I would conclude that Wikipedia should neutrally allow using either an endash or hyphen except where other policies favor a choice, such as in wp:TITLE (wp:COMMONNAME) to use the most-common spelling of a name, and in wp:ACCESS to allow access to Wikipedia functionality in typing or searching for data.
Implications from emerging consensus: There are several issues which directly relate to the decisions from the emerging consensus noted above. The related issues include:
Wikipedia should not establish a house style (in wp:MOS) that recommends endashes over hyphens (nor vice versa) because too many editors do not support the distinction as being significant for Wikipedia.
With no house style to favor endashes, then page-number ranges could use either hyphens or endashes, with no need to edit an article to force either character.
With no house style to favor endashes, then day/date ranges could use either hyphens or endashes, with no need to edit an article to force either character.
With no clear consensus to favor endashes, then no policy statement should specify a specific choice of hyphen/dash to override other policy reasons for choosing which to use.
As a consequence of those related issues (listed immediately above), then editing of pages would be simplified by not changing hyphens/endashes unless directed by policy statements, not as a style issue. There would be no need to put "–" where a prior editor had written hyphen "-" or double-hyphen "--" in the text of an article. Note well that the above implications directly follow from the fact of numerous editors stating that the choice between hyphen/endash is insignificant for Wikipedia as a style-related issue. However, if the emerging consensus were to change greatly, and a supramajority of editors recant their opinions to instead, later, strongly favor the use of endashes rather than hyphens, then the above implications or conclusions would no longer be valid, and style guides could favor endashes as the widely preferred style of short horizontal lines, which is clearly not the case, at this time in December 2012. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:41, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It has become clear that there is no consensus to change the current guidelines, and that all responses to the things that you find "clear" will be ignored in favor of your conclusion. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:50, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I think you could gain consensus for an even simpler proposal: forbid the use of en-dashes within Wikipedia at all, and commissioning a bot to remove all existing occurences. I can't remember a pettier or more insignificant squabble than this. The difference is essentially invisible, and using both does nothing more than force the existence of redirects to compensate for the simple fact that people can't type en-dashes.—Kww(talk) 17:57, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Just because you claim an inability to detect the difference doesn't mean there isn't one, or that the difference is insignificant. The difference between a comma and a period, or a minus sign and a division sign, is equally small but I'm sure you can agree the meanings are quite different. Using the correct punctuation enhances understanding and reduces confusion for readers -- even those readers who are not consciously aware of the difference. It's good typographical practice and has been for centuries. PowersT18:09, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That comparison would indicate to me that you have no appreciation for the truly infinitesimal difference we are discussing. Nobody has continuous edit wars and discussions about the difference between a minus sign and a division sign because their purpose, usage, and appearance is clearly different. We've muddled along for years with keyboards that couldn't distinguish these different short horizontal lines because the vast majority of population doesn't find the distinction interesting. To load the encyclopedia down with a redirect structure to jump back and forth between two different punctuation marks that aren't appreciably different in order to satisfy a desire to be typologically correct is creating a problem that doesn't exist. Far easier to simply forbid the use of the en-dash. We could probably even get Wikimedia software modified to treat and render the two characters identically to prevent anyone from trying to cheat.—Kww(talk) 18:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, it would be easier to pretend that the endash doesn't exist. It would be wrong, but it would be easier. It would also be easier to pretend Unikode doesn't eksist. I'm pretty sure we kan get by without q, x, j, and c as well. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:39, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Aw come on, he has a point, although I disagree with it. The word "wrong" implies grammar books are something like scripture. A more utilitarian answer is that using "k" for "c" would slow down comprehension by about a percent. Using a hyphen for a dash would slow down comprehension by a much smaller fraction, and only for the fraction of a percent of our readers who know the difference. Once we write several paragraphs on the subject, it would have been more efficient to do whatever gets us back to something real again. Art LaPella (talk) 18:52, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
When he can demonstrate that the vast majority of keyboards manufactured for decades have been missing the q, x, j, and c keys, he'll have a point. Until then, he's simply conflating two completely different issues for comedic effect.—Kww(talk) 19:06, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You can't re-engineer grammar, and to argue a ban on a punctuation mark is crass. Just because a number of people don't appreciate the difference, does not mean we should just pretend it's "truly infinitesimal". There are small differences between other points of grammar, and spelling as well – we're not dumbing down to suit those who don't care enough to learn those differences. If a grammar point causes a big fuss like this, deal with the fuss, don't warp the grammar. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:01, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not pretending it's truly infinitesimal, it is truly infinitesimal. Hence the discrepancies all over reliable sources as to which ones to use in which cases and the lack of distinction in keyboards.—Kww(talk) 19:06, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't. It doesn't matter how many times you say it, there is a significant difference between a hyphen and an endash. Keyboards don't do a lot of things – that's no indicator of grammatical importance, merely frequency. What is truly infinitesimal though is the merit in your argument to ban endashes. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:13, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keyboards don't have °, ¢, or ∞ either. Keyboards don't even have italics. But we keep using them in Wikipedia because it's supposed to be laid out like a "real" encyclopedia, not a typewritten galley proof of an encyclopedia. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:51, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly I find it sad that anyone would devote so much energy to arguing on and on and on about such a point, failing to realize that the people involved in the dispute at literally the only ones that care or will even notice the difference. Once you have decided how many en dashes can dance on the head of a pin be sure and let us know... Beeblebrox (talk) 19:14, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
When an utterly insignificant issue is making a sprawling mess at on of our major forums for discussing policy you can expect people to point out that this is a silly, pointless dispute that you all are taking way too seriously. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:24, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking generally. why should some people's ruling of what is insignificant, silly and pointless have any bearing on what others want to do on the encyclopedia that anyone can edit? Maybe I missed the diktat. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Those 60 editors agreed to styles which contradicted worldwide usage
Just in case anyone thinks the dash-style decisions among the above-cited 60-editor voting (June 2011) was, somehow, reflecting the world-at-large use of dashes, I will note the following strong objection to one aspect of pro-dash usage in ratios:
Proposal: use en dash in ratios ("Male–Female ratio")
Reaction:Very strongly oppose. No actual usage outside some obscure style guide has been given; most style guides do not recommend this. Looking at a random sample of actual English suggests strongly that this is also the wrong example; the old-fashioned (male:female) and modern (male/female) symbols for a ratio are both more common than dashes; hyphens are more common than all three put together. If those who support this want permission to do this, I am still willing to accord it. (posted in mid-2011 by Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:22, 5 June 2011)
The stipulation to use dashes in ratios was favored, even though directly in conflict with the world-at-large (and many style guides), which use hyphens ("male-female") more than the less-common colon ("male:female"), or slash ("male/female"), or endashed forms combined. The result was a style-guide rule which pushes the least-common ratio format (endash), as being preferred, and definitely a pro-dash stance above all other forms. That was the result of the 60-editor voting process, which pushed the use of endashes in ratios, above 3 other more-common formats. I am reminded of the adage, "If the only tool avaliable is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail". Perhaps if a style-guide document had been focused on "Hyphen/dash usage" (rather than "wp:DASH"), then worldwide use of hyphens, far more than dashes, would have been advised. Consider the outcome of an election which has only one candidate on the ballot, as an analogy when making choices. -Wikid77 (talk) 18:53, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Septentrionalis was later topic-banned from editing the MOS, I believe due to his intransigence over hyphens and dashes.
It seems like this discussion is sort of like a disagreement over the wisdom of having a Manual of Style at all. A major point of having a manual of style is to establish rules for (grammatically) ambiguous questions to achieve consistency. Does it really matter if in certain situations 60% of sources disagree with our decision to use an en dash rather than a hyphen? No! We're choosing a rule for consistency and the MOS isn't required to follow rules like commonname that are applicable to actual encyclopedic content. Are we really going to sit around interminably debating whether it makes sense to change the manual of style just because 85% rather than 60% of sources in a particular circumstance use a dash? I certainly hope not! Basically I just think that to add "use an en dash in this situation -- except when dealing with comets because the IAU disagrees, and except when dealing with airports because the FAA disagrees" is just the start of an avalanche of essentially unhelpful discussions to be had and needlessly time-consuming decisions to be made. AgnosticAphidtalk23:27, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it's odd to be hearing this voice from a user who was first topic banned then permanently blocked. It was not for his opinions in opposition to dashes, but yes for "intransigence" as you call it. An inability to live with the consensus worked out by so many others. We were all tired of arguing, and he wanted to keep it up, so much that he resorted to a sock puppet to do more of it after he was topic banned. It's amazing how much disruption one person can serve up. Things were pretty quiet, Feb. through Aug, then another popped up. Dicklyon (talk) 23:49, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Re: Agnostic's comment: "We're choosing a rule for consistency and the MOS isn't required to follow rules like commonname that are applicable to actual encyclopedic content." I am confused... if the MOS is not applicable to actual encyclopedic content what is the MOS applicable to? If there is a conflict between the MOS and a very consensus policy provision like WP:COMMONNAME, I would say the MOS needs revision. Blueboar (talk) 23:59, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I took AA to say "rules like commonname that are applicable to actual encyclopedic content". That is, COMMONNAME is about content, the stuff that needs to be verifiable in reliable sources, as regulated by policy. The MOS is not about that, but about how to style our presentation of it to make a consistent and professional look. Dicklyon (talk) 00:04, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I meant that the MOS isn't subject to commonname, not that content isn't subject to the MOS.
The MOS is a guideline. WP:Policy says, "The policies, guidelines, and process pages themselves are not part of the encyclopedia proper. Consequently, they do not generally need to conform with the content standards. It is therefore not necessary to provide reliable sources to verify Wikipedia's administrative pages, or to phrase Wikipedia procedures or principles in a neutral manner, or to cite an outside authority in determining Wikipedia's editorial practices. Instead, the content of these pages is controlled by community-wide consensus, and the style should emphasize clarity, directness, and usefulness to other editors." Because the MOS is a guideline, it's not subject to policies (guidelines?) like COMMONNAME, TITLE, and so forth. Its purpose is not to reflect the accumulated wisdom of all other style guides in an encyclopedic fashion, it's to aid Wikipedia in creating a manageable, consistent, and useful in-house style. AgnosticAphidtalk00:17, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to focus on four words "it's to aid Wikipedia". The MOS can either help or hurt Wikipedia. It helps Wikipedia if it gives good advice, and it hurts Wikipedia if it gives bad advice. To not use common use for names is clearly bad advice and clearly hurts Wikipedia because it leads to misspelling comets and airports and not spelling bridges and wars the same way that most reliable sources spell them. So where the MOS went wrong is in applying rules of punctuation to proper nouns - proper nouns use hyphens and not endashes, and that can be tested by simply checking any. The suggestion to revise the MOS is a good one. Apteva (talk) 06:55, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Helpfulness or aid is in the eye of the beholder, and I personally don't think that your suggestion of deferring to the majority of reliable sources for every single article title separately is particularly helpful. That would spawn an endless number of individual revisions to the MOS and would lead to the MOS having a rule for every single article. If we were talking about some MOS rule that was, "always use semicolons instead of periods," then perhaps we could all agree that the MOS is unhelpful. But really we are talking about a stylistic choice and your arguments seem to ignore the prior discussion that led to the current MOS guideline and also either overlook or are hostile to the whole purpose of having a manual of style. It's regrettable that the idea of having mandated usage seems to be so troublesome to some editors, but really that is a fundamental disagreement with the MOS and not a basis to change individual suggestions within the MOS. AgnosticAphidtalk21:26, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
RE: "That would spawn an endless number of individual revisions to the MOS and would lead to the MOS having a rule for every single article." Not if the "rule" stated at the MOS was: "Follow the usage of the sources, per WP:COMMONNAME" (ie one "rule" that allows for multiple end results)... I will note that this would have the advantage of bringing the MOS into sync with what is already stated in our WP:Article Titles policy. Blueboar (talk) 21:35, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Proposal for a moratorium
Since the few people who actually have a strong opinion on this are clearly unable to resolve it themselves and the rest of the community doesn't really care, I propose a one-year moratorium on debates regarding en dashes, hyphens, and any other small horizontal lines. This would also cover editing in article titles or content to make them have the users preferred small horizontal line or editing the MOS or any other page related to the use of small horizontal lines, construed as broadly as possible. Any user found to be in violation of the moratorium will first be warned about it, just once, and then be subject to blocking, with repeat offenses leading to severely increased block lengths, up to and including blocking for the entire remainder of said moratorium.
Support as proposer. Looking at the massive discussion above it is clear that this minor issue is a major time sink and a distraction from actual useful work. The vast majority of our readers do not know or care what the difference is between these small horizontal lines so the benefit to using one or the other is obscure at best. The involved parties are clearly never going to stop unless they are made to. So let's just agree that the sane thing to do is to put a stop to these endless, pointless arguments about small horizontal lines. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:33, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've just changed my vote from Support to Oppose for you in the ArbCom election, on the basis of your disregard for professional standards of writing, and what the major style guides in the language say. Just weird to be proposing blocks for people who introduce consensus-based improvements. Appalling that you think you'd make a good arb. Tony(talk) 09:15, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Is the voting still open? There is no professional standard of writing in the world that suggests that comets, airports, etc. should be misspelled. There is little doubt that Beeblebrox, one of the most respected editors will be selected handily, but... 01:07, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
What a pity that an editor who dismisses professional standards of typography ("small horizontal lines") should be regarded as a "respected editor", and that an editor who suggests people shouldn't be allowed to discuss it, should be considered suitable as an arb. It would be pretty outrageous. Tony(talk) 11:58, 10 December 2012 (UTC) Oh, and for the record, Oppose, of course. And I guess it needs to be pointed out that arbcom already supervised a large RfC last year in which all of this was resolved by consensus. Care to look, Beeblebrox? Tony(talk) 12:03, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't tend to bash people for grammar errors, I just correct them. I had never even seen an argument about hyphens and endashes until I saw this one. Does this proposal constitute a ban on correcting grammar where there is no debate? For example correcting Coca_Cola to Coca-Cola? Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:44, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So just ban hyphen and endashes changes in that article and any similar ones, why use a sledgehammer to crack what is apparently a very small nut? Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:54, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Per common use, we would just punt and call it Mexican War, the same as roughly 90% of books and other references. But that does not solve the more important question, of miss using dashes where hyphens are more commonly used, such as Mexican-American War and any similarly named war, bridge, airport, or comet. The argument, which of course is completely specious, is that the dash in Mexican American would let everyone know that it was a war between Mexicans and Americans instead of Mexican-Americans, but that is specious for two reasons - that is not how English works, our idioms just need to be memorized, they often do not mean what the words would indicate, and anyone who actually knows how dashes are used would already know what the Mexican War/Mexican American War was and would never be in the least confused no matter what punctuation was used. Apteva (talk) 06:42, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Absent an Arbcom case, and then only at point, there appears to be no mechanism to get people to mediate these things that most people do not care about. As seems often the case, they just go on talking past each other ('it's a style issue, no it's a content issue, no it's a style issue, no, it's a content issue, etc.') (here's some thoughts to consider, maybe sometimes its both, or one or the other depending on context). Perhaps, the rest of us should let them go on and then make them go to Arbitration at the next available moment. - Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:49, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Too vague and ill-thought out. Potentially blocking people for correcting grammar errors is not sustainable. Banning debate because some people don't care about the topic is dictatorial and censorious. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:52, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I don't know about the moratorium and strict block escalations, though I would like to see someone put an end to this. What about sending it to the Arbitration Committee to punish the committee give it one last chance at a resolution? Monty84520:12, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"shouldn't" would be more accurate. In this case, it really isn't a content dispute, it's a behavioural issue. Arbcom couldn't reasonably state a preference for one over the other, but it could demand that people stop arguing about it, changing articles in response to perceived incorrectness of one over the other, or renaming articles from one variant to another.—Kww(talk) 20:38, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Right, Arbcom shouldn't decide the underlying content dispute, but may put an end, however temporary, to the endless fighting about it. Monty84520:55, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is nothing earth shaking to decide - should wikipedia use the official names for things and/or the common use name for things instead of making up our own spelling? It is nothing more or less than answering yes or no to that question. Our naming policy says yes, why would anyone say no? I have to say that it would be incredibly helpful to everyone to resolve this issue this year instead of putting it off for a year. Apteva (talk) 06:42, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We've decided by a strong consensus that we do not use official names (Prince), nor do we always use common names. This is not an argument for or against the current guidelines, but just noting that this argument is irrelevant. — Arthur Rubin(talk)21:00, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is no disagreement that we sometimes choose common name over official name, but other than a choice between the two, I am at a loss to know of any third choice that we should be using. Most of our discussion is on trying to determine which name is the most common name to use. Discussion on which punctuation to use in a name should in my view be a part of the answer determined by which is the most commonly used, and definitely not predetermined, with disastrous consequences. Apteva (talk) 21:16, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support with a Modest Proposal for an amendment: anyone who is blocked for violating the moratorium should remain blocked until they are able to determine, to the satisfaction of qualified independent reviewers, the precise number of molecules per pixel in their computer's display. Completion of that exercise undoubtedly would be more valuable to society than continued discussion of small horizontal lines. And, yes, this is dictatorial and censorious. We are a voluntary community and are entitled to be as dictatorial and censorious as we wish, if we form a consensus to do so. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 21:01, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It would be helpful if people could at least differentiate between cases where there is debate over which punctuation mark to use (like the Mexican-American War issue), and cases where there is no debate. There is a potential for advocating blocks for editors who regularly make simple, uncontested grammar corrections, and I am assuming nobody wants to see that. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:15, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I fully support a moratorium on argument... but I would not support a moratorium on editing. Instead, I would suggest a strict one-revert rule (this would allow editors may change hyphens to dashes, or dashes to hyphens as they think correct in a given situation... but if reverted, he/she would not be allowed to undo the revert). Blueboar (talk) 22:48, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Oppose If editors are being disruptive in the hyphen/dash debate, then block them, topic ban them, or give them a 1RR sanction. Put in discretionary sanctions for all discussions on hyphens and dashes, if you must. But don't do a blanket ban on all hyphen and dash discussion. David1217What I've done23:16, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Proposal. There is a current RfC at Wikipedia Talk:MOS#Three corrections. That will per this proposal, terminate at the end of 2012, and there will be no discussion of small horizontal lines during 2013, no deliberate changing of any to another, and no proposed article name changes from one short horizontal line to another during 2013. A subpage for registering requests, without discussion, will be made available. They will not without arbcom permission be acted upon until 2014. Apteva (talk) 23:26, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose moratorium on hyphen/dash discussions: I think the continued discussion of the long-term, worldwide use of hyphens, versus the relatively limited use of endashes, will continue to reveal a broader consensus where many editors do not see the need to force endashes, nor hyphens, into article text. Likewise, usage of hyphens/dashes, such as in titles, should reflect mainstream use (hence, wp:COMMONNAME whenever hyphens or endashes are most-used in the preponderance of wp:RS reliable sources). For example, there is no significant advantage to change a ratio phrase "male/female" to use endash "male–female". Further discussion should proceed to investigate how an arbitrated discussion, of endash usage (re wp:DASH), led to a local consensus which advocated the use of endashes in titles contrary to the common-usage (contrary to policy wp:COMMONNAME). Also, discussion should proceed to quantify, where practical, the extra overhead, during the prior 2 years, needed to rename page titles, or force endashes into article text, rather than let hyphens be used as an equivalent format (with no need to re-edit to insert endashes). There is also the option to allow the most-common use, of either hyphens or endashes, in an article's list sections to determine the changing of less-common into the more-common format. I think the push to use endashes, to replace hyphens, is an extreme case of instruction creep, which has led to counter-productive rules of text formatting. However, by continuing to discuss all of those issues, during the coming months, then the discussions can demonstrate that Wikipedia is willing to question prior cases of assumed consensus, to better reflect the broader consensus of the community. -Wikid77 (talk) 04:20, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support First and only suggestion I have seen in relation to this risible topic that makes sense. My only caveat is that the sanctions are not draconian enough. : D BenMacDui20:17, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support: I don't care what flavor of short horizontal line people use. I do care that the endless arguments over it are disruptive. -–—Carnildo (talk) 21:24, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose—There is and has been resolution about this. The style guide's comments on this matter are the result of overwhelming consensus after a long discussion on this matter, overseen by Casliber, over a year ago, as a result of this arbcom motion. The recent disruption is the result of one user carrying on a months-long crusade over many forums, talk pages, and re-opened RMs to try to almost singlehandedly undo this. We don't deal with one disruptive user this way. I'm a little disappointed, Beeblebrox. You, too, KWW. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 19:41, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And of course, that proposed resolution included three errors which need to be corrected. Plus the entire MOS is way too overbearing now "you must do this, you must not do that". Lighten up on the Nazism and correct the errors, and everyone will be happy. Apteva (talk) 20:31, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Do you still believe "everyone will be happy" doing it your way? This whole section is about those who would silence you as an individual, versus those who would silence you and everyone like you. Art LaPella (talk) 20:50, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
My recommendation is that we make choices the way we make other choices - find out what most people do. If most people use a dash in a proper name, use a dash. If most people use a hyphen in a proper name, use a hyphen. As to some of the more obscure uses of a hyphen or a dash, there is no point in picking a style because both are valid, and sometimes one is preferred in Britspeak and the other in Amspeak. But I certainly do not expect someone to ce an article to make sure that hyphen/endash use corresponds with the flavor/flavour of English used, nor do I expect us to enforce the opposite either - forcing an article written in Brit to use Am hyphen/dashes, or one written in Am to use Brit hyphen/dashes. Apteva (talk) 04:32, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Interminable stupid arguments about things our readers probably can't see, and if they do, don't care about don't belong on Wikipedia. If you want to carry on arguing over this nonsense, go start up Horizontallinepedantsopaedia. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:17, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support this entire issue is a colossal waste of time, and virtually any other activity on Wikipedia is more productive. Hut 8.519:37, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – There will be much less disruption if people who don't care about this area, like Beeblebrox, simply ignore it, and if the community can bring itself to throttle the individual who keeps making unsupported proposals to change the working consensus based on an idiosyncratic theory. At this point, I will say no more, and go into ignore-Apteva mode in hopes that that will help matters settle down. Dicklyon (talk) 20:39, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, actually, User:Apteva should be commended for broadening the discussion to alert busy editors, such as myself, for how the forced dashes are over-the-top, excessive style which conflicts with common hyphenated names of airports, comets or partnerships, plus Apteva has offered a quick, simple solution: "Use wp:COMMONNAME". End of debate. -Wikid77 (talk) 11:04, 24 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This issue has been decided by consensus in the past, just because some users have been a little to vocal on the issue and most don't care doesn't mean we should abandon the previous consensus which is in effect what this moratorium would do. I'd rather see Apteva's RFC proposal above run to completion and then place a moratorium freezing it to that outcome for at least a year. PaleAqua (talk) 02:10, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Question - Many years ago (in the early days of Wikipedia) we were faced with constant edit wars between American and British spelling. To end the edit wars we came up with a logical compromise solution: WP:ENGVAR. (Which allowed for both forms of spelling in Wikipedia - determining which to use on an article by article basis). Since that compromise was instituted, such edit wars are, if not eliminated completely, quickly resolved. Now, I do understand that the debate over horizontal lines is not quite so clear cut ... but have people tried to find a similar "topic based" compromise when it comes to hyphens and dashes? Not necessarily a compromise based on "National Variation" (which probably does not apply)... but something that accounts for the fact that hyphen/dash usage is not uniform in the real world? Does this have to be a "always do this/always do that" debate... is there a way to shift it to "sometimes do this/at other times do that"? Blueboar (talk) 14:30, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think banning any editing that can be shown to be part of a pattern of changing from one to the other pretty much accomplishes that. The intent is certainly the same, to just put a stop to the bickering and edit warring. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:55, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support When the percentage of articles with statements that are unverifiable, verifiably false, or biased and misleading drops below 1%, I will publish my treatise on the proper usage of short horizontal lines. Until then, my opinion is that whoever edit wars about it or brings it to ANI is wrong. Kilopi (talk) 23:34, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
True - consider it changed to Moral Support. Would fully support Blueboar's amendment. Would have said so at the time, but couldn't be arsed to read another long thread about this non-issue. Kilopi (talk) 00:17, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Trying to shut down discussion is just a bad idea. It will simply crop up elsewhere in a different form. (Like in a proposal to end the one year moratorium.) If you don't care, just ignore the discussions. NE Ent22:21, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Impractical, but applaud the spirit. I do not think that trying to prevent discussion is going to be productive (and it'll cause yet more pointless drama, rather circularly), but I support entirely the sentiment and the principle. Vast amounts of time and energy are being swept up, enormous vendettas built, on something that most of the community neither knows nor cares about until it spills over near them. If you are involved in this discussion: please, take this sort of request as a gentle hint from the 95% of horizontal-line-uninvolved editors. Andrew Gray (talk) 13:00, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support. What a waste of time and typing such proposals and discussions are. I agree that it's somewhat impractical, but at any rate there should be a discouraging frown shown toward continuing these types of debates, which detract from our more encyclopedic goals. dci | TALK 02:45, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Was this proposal a joke? As annoying as the proponents on both sides are, it's even more stupid to try to just shut down discussion. If Wikipedia can survive discussion on Arab/Israeli conflict, abortion and any number of other hot topics, it can survive an argument about punctuation. If you don't want to see it, don't look. It's understandable to feel annoyance and exasperation, but it's a huge over-reaction to seriously (?) propose blocking editors for discussing it. Barsoomian (talk) 03:46, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, blocking's probably a bit harsh when conflicts of a much greater breadth don't cause tremendous disruption. However, this is a very minor issue in the grand scheme of things, so I think we should agree on a firm "request" not to engage in further debate over this topic, then ignore it. The only reason I supported the moratorium is because I'm a bit baffled as to how a dispute over dashes can lead to such drama. dci | TALK 03:53, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
When this and other issues like it, e.g., diacritics, occupy WP:RM, WP:ANI, and WP:EWN, it's hard to "not look." When constructive and non-warring editors are pushed away from the encyclopedia by battling over trivia, it's hard to "not look." Somehow we're more comfortable blocking editors for edit-warring political controversies than typographic ones. At very least the standards should be the same, I might even argue that it should be the other way around. At least with the political controversies we often get a pretty good result out of the sausage-making, the article converges. With single-option style issues, the '"fun" never ends. --j⚛e deckertalk16:51, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, this argument is annoying. That doesn't mean that blocking editors for arguing about it is appropriate. That's what was called "Politicians' Logic" in Yes, Prime Minister: "Something must be done, this is something, therefore we must do it." There is no doubt there is a problem. Just ignoring it may not be satisfactory, but is the least worst option. Barsoomian (talk) 06:21, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You are conflating "annoying" with "disruptive." Were we talking about "annoying", I'd agree. With regard to your more substantive argument, I see it a matter of weighing the correct sort of horizontal line vs. pushing editors out of the encyclopedia and disrupting the improvement of hundreds of articles. I have absolutely no qualms in saying that of the two, "doing nothing" at the cost of that disruption is in fact the worse of the two options. I don't *like* this option. But nobody has demonstrated anything better. --j⚛e deckertalk23:17, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Of course not all such discussion is disruptive. But the quantity of it which is exceeds in magnitude the benefit of getting the typography right over a twelve month interregnum. To pick an example from the last five minutes, I don't even consider the third of the discussion at Template_talk:Infobox_SCOTUS_case, which involves continual whining about the non-functionality of en-dashes as template parameters, to be actually disruptive. But enough of the dash/hyphen wars are. --j⚛e deckertalk02:04, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support it would be nice if the moratorium was on all MoS discussion issues completely. We have hundreds of thousands of articles that don't even meet basic encyclopedic standards. Come down from the MoS ivory tower sometime guys. Gigs (talk) 18:15, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
My preference would be to eliminate 95% of the MOS, and add "Follow the usage of reliable sources, per WP:COMMONNAME". Adding that would eliminate all of the problems. Most of the MOS tries to teach good writing and punctuation, both of which are beyond its scope. All of the arguments about the MOS are from discrepancies between the MOS and common usage, and all of them would therefore go away, by adopting the same standard that we use everywhere else. Apteva (talk) 02:38, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Time to DENY the obsessive-compulsive Manual of Style warriors their hobby... A major disruption. Here are the dashes that can easily be typed with a keyboard -, —. You wanna require something else, you're tilting at windmills. Carrite (talk) 04:10, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately their disruption has caused as many as several hundred articles that do not normally use an endash to be spelled with an endash, instead of the more commonly used hyphen. These include comets, airports, bridges, and wars. Apteva (talk) 05:57, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support from exasperation. The problem isn't that the discussions or annoying, the problem is that they create a battleground which is disruptive to the editing community and pushes editors away. I have opinions on typography, too, but fixing a few of these "wrongs" just isn't worth the damage to the editing community. I consider this "having a sense of proportion." Previous methods of dealing with this community disruption have not proven successful, it's time to try something new. I would also support extending this to diacritics. --j⚛e deckertalk14:20, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Partial oppose - If the use of a hyphen/en dash/em dash is blatantly wrong, then there shouldn't be a problem with someone changing it. I agree with the moratorium on banning debates on the subject for a year, but not on disallowing editing of small horizontal lines. ❤ YutsiTalk/Contributions ( 偉特 ) 12:54, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not everyone agrees on what is blatantly wrong. Telling people they can make changes but not discuss them will just lead to edit wars... Hardly an improvement on the status quo. David1217What I've done01:24, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The point of bringing this issue up before the village pump (and I may have been the one or one of the ones who suggested that Apteva do this several months ago) would be to see if there is general agreement that the MOS should be abolished, or should not apply to article titles, etc. I agree with many of the supporters that a debate over dashes here is a wast of time: The minutiae of what the MOS should or should not cover should be left to the MOS discussion page, though of course it might be beneficial to give the editors at the pump a heads-up if a user thinks broader input is needed.
If people feel that repeating the debate on multiple pages is a waste of time (and I agree that it is), then the simple solution would be to limit the discussion to a central page, such as at the MOS talk page. For most people, BlueBoar summed it up well: Just use hyphens, and let the wikignomes take care of it. — kwami (talk) 05:07, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I don't care about the existence or nonexistence of global discussions of this issue but by banning uncontroversial grammar corrections in article space this proposal goes too far, and elevates policy wonkery over building a better encyclopedia. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:29, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No. Per "until the resolution of the debate below" ("Interested parties are instructed to spend the next 14 days from the passing of this motion determining the structure of a discussion on En dashes in article titles to obtain consensus. Note that this can be the continuation of a current discussion or commencement anew. From that date, a period of six weeks is granted for the gathering of consensus on the issue. (If this motion passes, then dates can be clarified)." Dates were never clarified, and the discussion was closed as resolved with the adoption of the "final draft" on 24 July 2011.[12] It should be noted that the approach used was not to arrive at consensus, but to bully those opposed. Apteva (talk) 04:20, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I likewise concluded that bullying (or "peer pressure") was used for the July 2011 draft, as when someone strongly opposed the use of dashes in ratios, but was willing to agree for consistency or such. That explains the balderdash that falsely claims a wiki-consensus to use dashes everywhere. A true consensus would likely have been, "We mostly agree to use wp:COMMONNAME, where hyphens are more common, except when a topic is cleared named with dashes" such as a notable political party named "Dash–It–All" or such. In seeking a true consensus, I suspect vast numbers of editors would consent to use wp:COMMONNAME to spell article titles, although some pro-dash advocates would likely still oppose reduction of the forced dashes. -Wikid77 (talk) 11:04, 24 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Partial support, with changes: While I have fairly strong opinions on short horizontal lines of all types, I don't think that heated debate and edit warring on the topic accomplishes anything. I would propose that we institute a one-year moratorium on debate on the topic and a 'constructive edit' policy: if a constructive edit is being made to a page, a user MAY correct the dashes as they see fit. If any edit wars ensue they will improve the quality of Wikipedia anyway, since the warring users will be forced to make other constructive changes to the article while warring over the dashes. — Wolfgang42 (talk) 00:06, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose discussion ban. Ugncreative Usergname has a point. Stopping discussion is probably a bad idea. However, I still think that requiring a constructive edit to be made alongside any dash change will help to mitigate the problem. — Wolfgang42 (talk) 03:25, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Stopping discussion is a bad idea. It's not like the discussion is making Wikipedia worse, and to say that the editors should be "doing something better with their time" implies that Wikipedia is compulsory. Also, banning uncontroversial grammar corrections is deliberately preventing Wikipedia from getting better. The end goal is to build the encyclopedia, not keep people from yelling at each other. –Ugncreative Usergname (talk) 02:49, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. It's frustrating and usually unhelpful to be obstructed on the grounds of arcane rules posted in the basement. Grammar is situational and people can discuss and determine the best horizontal lines to use on a case-by-case basis. As far as the central discussion goes, there's no reason to abruptly censor a discussion. If the fear is that only fanatics will hang on long enough to determine Encyclopedia-wide policy—well, this is in my view a problem with much such policy and might should cause us to reconsider how we do business. groupuscule (talk) 03:05, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: In spirit, I sympathize with this idea, because the debate is so f'ing tiresome, but as Powers put it, "we do not go imposing moratoria because one person insists on continuing to find ways around consensus". There's already a RFC/U about this one user's constant disruption over this issue, and more than one party has made it clear that if it continues after the RFC/U, which is a WP:SNOWBALL in favor of the idea that said user has in fact been blatantly disruptive, they'll take the matter to WP:ARBCOM. More than one way to skin a cat, and this proposal is not the best way. I'd rather see a disruptive editor topic-banned, than censor everyone else, not disruptive, who may want to discuss tweaks to MOS:DASH. — SMcCandlishTalk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib.09:29, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This is a "plague on both your houses" or "it takes two to tango" (or whatever your favourite cliché is) proposal that doesn't recognise that the problem that we have now is with one editor who refuses to accept consensus. We shouldn't prevent edits to bring articles into conformity with our consensus-agreed house style, or prevent other reasonable editors from proposing changes, because of a single editor's disruption. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:52, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is no secret that I brought up the topic - and I apologize for bringing it up only a year and a half after it was discussed before by editors who failed to recognize that there was no consensus for extending the use of dashes where dashes are not normally used, but seriously something needs to be done sometime. Just how many years does it take to fix an issue like this that never should have even been an issue? Five years? A decade? I thoroughly agree with the above comment that discussing rules of hyphens on wikipedia is a waste of time. Just say that titles are determined by WP:Article titles policy and be done with it. Apteva (talk) 01:59, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A year and a half? Didn't you bring it up and have it rejected over the last 4 months in various places including these?:
It certainly does not matter but technically it has been 16 months 1 week and 2 days between the MOS update and this thread being created. Normally a year is more than enough time to wait. So if all of the time I have been bringing up a spelling correction for dashes to hyphens is included it is still likely to be over a year. All of the above are certainly valid, as clearly they adhere to established policy. I believe my first edit on the subject was in September of this year, actually, in response to a wp:canvas notice at the WP:MOS talk page. While I opened neither the RFC nor the RM, I was able to research the subject and do not believe that any of the 9,000 airports in the world or who knows how many bridges, comets or any other proper nouns are spelled with a dash, either in common usage or in their official name. So if we were to do so in any of them it would both be misleading to our readers and a violation of WP policy. However, I do look forward to seeing this problem being rectified at some point, by removing the section on titles at MOS and replacing it with the simple sentence "Article titles are determined by Wikipedia:Article titles policy." No fuss, no muss, and no problems. Apteva (talk) 06:33, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No fuss, no muss, no problems; except for the fact that your proposals and theories have been rejected by consensus at every venue where you have brought them up; and your behavior has been found disruptive at the RFC/U about it; and you've got about half the responders in this thread wanting to throttle your discussion. It's not on. Live with it. Dicklyon (talk) 07:56, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Over half want a one year moratorium on all systematic edits based on horizontal lines and no discussion. By anyone. It should however be obvious where this is headed - fix the MOS, and quit causing problems by creating unusual names for articles that take a magnifying glass or very good eyesight to see that they are wrong. As I recall, Minneapolis-Saint Paul International Airport (MSP) was spelled with a minus sign for about a year and a half (it gets roughly a 170 visitors per day, so that is about 90,000 not noticing or not saying anything). Apteva (talk) 09:38, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - instead tell this bunch of delusional loons that we don't give a flying fuck which particular horizontal line is used in articles, and then ban anyone who argues that it actually matters which ones we use for life - or preferably longer. Why the hell should we provide free webspace for this nonsense to continue? AndyTheGrump (talk) 08:28, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Grow up, Grump. You are not helping at all. Abuse begets abuse, and only adds to the mindless noise. Just walk away, if maintaining and defending standards is not your thing.
Almost everyone wants this futile and benighted questioning of the 2011 consensus to stop. Don't assume that the defenders of a well-founded consensual manual of style are as irresponsible as the heedless detractors – those who will not accept ArbCom's verdict, the voice of 60 concerned editors in the biggest and most productive style consultation Wikipedia has ever witnessed, or any argument beyond a blinkered and inept application of the notion of "reliable sources". It is not the sensible majority's fault if a vociferous and intransigent minority cannot grasp the distinction between style and content. Better that they go back to work on content, if they flounder so painfully over style.
While I think he could have been more diplomatic with his choice of words, I think his basic sentiment is spot on. BTW, please note WP:NPA.... that you have flat out violated by directly attacking him. I'd suggest re-reading that policy again. Calm down, take a chill pill, and relax when you can attack arguments and not those making them.
The nice thing about having this discussion here on the village pump is that it is getting wider viewing and letting those uninvolved at least see what is going on. Hiding this discussion doesn't help anybody but those who want to be a bunch of cyber bullies forcing their viewpoint upon others. If the point was to move the discussion to some place that might have even wider attention, perhaps moving the discussion to Main Page? (Please note that was a joke, if that wasn't obvious.)
As for people questioning consensus.... that is Wikipedia and how it operates. Questioning consensus and re-raising the issue in a wider forum is how things happen. Based upon what I've seen in this discussion so far, there is no consensus on any of the points being raised, nor any strong rationale for any particular viewpoint other than "I don't give a damn" should prevail. --Robert Horning (talk) 15:21, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So, Noetica telling AndyTheGrump to "grow up" if "maintaining and defending standards is not your thing" is a personal attack? But AndyTheGrump's labeling of a group of editors as "delusional loons" is what? -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:45, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"tell this bunch" is not a personal attack as it is not directed personally, and instead obliquely condemns, as is, we are all f'd up (a six letter word not three). "Grow up, Grump. You are not helping at all." is totally a personal attack, as it both names and is directed at one and one editor only. Apteva (talk) 01:53, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it names and is directed at one editor, but is not an attack. I didn't say anything about "tell this bunch", but about "delusional loons", which is an attack. Do you mean to claim that attacks at more than one editor at a time do not violate NPA? So if some hypothetical editor were to say "Apteva and AndyTheGrump are delusional loons", there's no problem? I disagree. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:39, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
An unnamed group is not a personal attack. A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, if individually named, is a personal attack. That is what the word "personal" means. The problem, though, in reaching consensus, is not that the feedback is either positive or negative, but that it is personal. For example, three people are trying to decide X or Y. A says, B you are good at this. B says we should use X. C is left out of the discussion and whatever they say is discredited because it was premised by A saying that B was the expert. This is just as bad as A says, B, you are blankety blank, and blank. So now no matter what B says, C is going to discredit it only because of the premise that was posited by A. So while a negative personal attack is obviously not acceptable, a positive remark is no less bad than the negative attack. Address the issue, instead of discussing the participants. Apteva (talk) 00:48, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A group can be identified without being named. I do agree with you, though, that AndyTheGrump should have addressed the issue instead of discussing the participants. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:04, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
How does naming someone add anything, other than making them a target? How does saying "agree with you" add anything other than exclude everyone else who had the same view? "I agree that addressing the issue instead of discussing the participants" works better. By obliquely referencing a group it avoids making them a target, and is better than specifically identifying a group. If someone wants to complain about someone discussing the participants instead of the issue, the place to do that is on their talk page. This comment included. I would recommend re-hatting this section. Apteva (talk) 23:30, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The only way this set of proposals is going anywhere is if an uninvolved admin puts it in a box and nails it shut. No need to shoot it first. Please. Let the next cycle of the calendar start fresh. Dicklyon (talk) 01:46, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is a long way before the new year, but the 30 days will not be up until the first week of next year. It is premature to move to close now. Apteva (talk) 05:52, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Since it seems unlikely for consensus to be reached, I see little point in closing this discussion other than to let it simply be archived. As long as comments keep being made, it is an active discussion and worth keeping here on the Village Pump. If you want it to be closed, just let it die a natural death and move on to other issues. --Robert Horning (talk) 21:51, 24 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Works for me, sorta. Since there are a lot of opposes, and a censorious moratorium that amounts to a topic-ban on a large number of innocent editors would require a really strong showing of site-wide consensus, a de facto consensus has actually been reached already that there won't be a moratorium. I really don't care if this pointless discussion is left to wither, is closed now as "no moratorium", or closed now as "no consensus"; they all amount to the same thing, though the latter two options will get this pseudo-issue to STFU faster. — SMcCandlishTalk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib.09:55, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But now there's a flurry of new activity today – which you started! It's very hard for such a big attractive nuisance to settle down, and it can't possibly go anywhere useful, which is why it should be closed. I was hoping it would be gone for the new cycle of Mayan calendar last week, but now even the 2013 change is out of sight. Dicklyon (talk) 23:54, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Use of gun names in shooting and massacre articles
I hope I'm posting this in the right place, and if I'm not, maybe an admin can direct me where to post it.
The issue: Wikipedia has many articles about crimes and shootings, and whenever an attempt is made to mention the type of gun used in a crime or shooting, the edit is deleted. For example, it appears that a Bushmaster M4 Type Carbine was used in the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting. Editors have attempted to insert a mention of the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting article in the Bushmaster M4 Type Carbine article, but these edits are soon removed. Another example: In the Virginia Tech massacre, the murderer used a Walther P22. However, the Walther P22 article does not mention the Virginia Tech massacre.
Current policy: It appears that the current policy regarding when to mention gun types in crime and shooting articles has been established by Wikipedia:WikiProject Firearms. Under "Criminal Use" on that page, the policy article says, "In order for a criminal use to be notable enough for inclusion in the article on the gun used, it must meet some criteria. For instance, legislation being passed as a result of the gun's usage (ex. ban on mail-order of firearms after use of the Carcano in JFK's assassination would qualify). Similarly, if its notoriety greatly increased (ex. the Intratec TEC-DC9 became infamous as a direct result of Columbine)."
The problem with this "policy," as I see it, is that WikiProject Firearms is dominated by gun enthusiasts. They believe strongly that the type of gun used in a crime doesn't matter, that a gun is solely a tool to be used for good or bad by the person who fires it.
Should gun enthusiasts set the Wikipedia policy for when a gun type can be mentioned in an article about a crime or shooting? Respectfully, I would like to see a debate about this policy. I would also like to respectfully suggest that the policy for when to mention gun types in articles should be set by the broader Wikipedia community, not solely by WikiProject Firearms. Chisme (talk) 19:43, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Using "policy" in a loose sense (I firmly believe this does not require a WP:POLICY), I would support the WikiProject outline. A viewer going from the shooting article to the gun article makes sense; someone who has gone straight to the is unlikely to care except in the cases mentioned. Else we risk gun articles becoming lists of usage cases, right down to individual murders. For something like the AK-47 it would be too long and I don't think it would survive AfD if split into a separate article. So generally I'm happy with how things are. I don't think it needs promoting to another page, so long as we think it's correct as it stands, and I do. Grandiose(me, talk, contribs) 19:49, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) When there is focus on the type of gun in the reliable third party sources that are otherwise used in the article, then yes, we should mention the gun in the body text paragraph that details the event as it unfolded. If the type of gun isn't in the reliable third party sources, then it isn't worth including. My memory is that more often than not, "a semi-automatic pistol" is the language that is used, but there are cases where the model is given. As for the Wikiproject Firearms issue, Wikiprojects are allowed to create whatever standards they agree on, however the moment those standards meet disagreement, they can't be forced, a discussion like this has to happen. The consensus here, whatever it turns out to be, will trump a project's local standards. Sven ManguardWha?19:50, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Too broad. I think the wpp guidelines are fine - if it is significant in a wider sense, include it, but if it was just a detail of the crime, it is clearly not relevant. While the shooter could have gotten the same results with a BB gun, it was easier with hollow point bullets. Apteva (talk) 20:38, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think that of there are reliable sources for what guns were used it is perfectly acceptable to mention them in the article on the incident, the same way we would mention what kind of car was used in a notable car accident or something like that. However, I don't see any reason to add such material to the articles on the guns themselves, and I could see how POV pushers might try and use such a tactic to make a particular manufacturers look bad even though the company itself has no relation to the nuts who use their product to go on shooting rampages. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:48, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sevn, arn't you talking about articles on the events mentioning the weapon? The question here appears to be about articles on the weapon mentioning the event. Grandiose(me, talk, contribs) 21:31, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I think the statement "Wikipedia has many articles about crimes and shootings, and whenever an attempt is made to mention the type of gun used in a crime or shooting, the edit is deleted" is incorrect since it appears that the articles about crimes and shootings often contain information about the weapons used and no one is deleting it. I think the intended meaning is that "Wikipedia has many articles about firearms, and whenever an attempt is made to mention a crime or shooting that involves the page's firearm, the edit is deleted". Jojalozzo20:56, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You're right. My bad. The topic is whether articles about specific types of guns can make mention of notorious shootings or massacres in which the type of gun was used. Sorry for the confusion. Chisme (talk) 21:55, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - there was a similar discussion on the Suicide of Amanda Todd in WP:VPP that discussed whether methods of death should be discussed in detail. This should be relevant to the current discussion, and perhaps required reading for WikiProject Firearms gun enthusiasts. Wer900 • talk21:51, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I wholeheartedly agree that this should be the case. In practical reality however, some WikiProjects do indeed create and enforce their own rules, and even refuse to engage in meaningful discussion about it. Consider Wikipedia:WikiProject Firearms#Criminal use (which defies WP:DUE, which that WikiProject "guideline" sanctimoniously points to in a ridiculous pre-emptive gesture), or Wikipedia:WikiProject Formula One's advice to use flagicons in infoboxes which entirely ignores WP:INFOBOXFLAG. Pointing out to the regulars of these projects that their "guidelines" are meaningless in the face of Wikipedia-wide consensus to the contrary has proved to be useless. They shout down any opposition and continue to enforce their own arbitrary rules. --195.14.198.57 (talk) 15:55, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The gun manufacturer is now an important part of this story as NPR is reporting [13] that the investment group that owned the manufacturer of the bushmaster rifle is selling it off to avoid losing clients. It is seeming increasingly likely that this incident is going to be a catalyst for serious changes in US gun laws, it was widely reported yesterday that even some replicants with "A ratings" from the National Rifle Association are now calling for stricter gun control laws, renewing the ban on assault weapons, and banning high-capacity magazines. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:53, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There aren't many cases where I would consider it appropriate to list incidents on the article of a weapon where it was used. It doesn't add anything to those articles, so I agree with the removals in general. Even in Beeblebrox's NPR story above, the link would be to the investment firm and manufacturer and the shooting, but still not the gun itself. If such a sale comes to pass, we would mention in the former two articles that the company was sold as a direct result of the shooting. But none of that would be relevant to the article on the gun itself, unless something remarkable related to it happened - such as this model being banned for public sale. Resolute17:02, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is a consensus issue. It is not appropriate to assert project syle guides as a policy. They are not policy but suggestions from the project for involved editors with that project. Some projects guidlines have become excepted, best practice by the general community over a long period, such as an infobox with a "fair use" poster displayed for film articles. A local consensus cannot override a broader consensus of the general community.--Amadscientist (talk) 03:21, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I've tried to raise this issue before. The problem rests firmly with the Wikipedia:WikiProject Firearms "guideline" on Criminal use, which directly defies all of our core content policies and introduces an arbitrary threshold for mention of a crime in a gun article, based on nothing but the local consensus within the WikiProject. The problematic section currently reads:
"In order for a criminal use to be notable enough for inclusion in the article on the gun used, it must meet some criteria. For instance, legislation being passed as a result of the gun's usage (ex. ban on mail-order of firearms after use of the Carcano in JFK's assassination would qualify). Similarly, if its notoriety greatly increased (ex. the Intratec TEC-DC9 became infamous as a direct result of Columbine). As per WP:UNDUE, editors "should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject".
This is part of the larger problem of some WikiProjects just making up their own guidelines, sometimes (as in this case) in complete and utter disregard and even contempt for Wikipedia-wide consensus. Any attempt to even discuss this unacceptable aspect of the WP:GUNS guideline is being aggressively shut down by the WikiProject's regulars. Nothing short of a full arbitration case will change this. --195.14.198.57 (talk) 15:49, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's a rather aggressive stance. The guideline makes sense, otherwise certain gun articles would spend more space listing the crimes they were involved in than discussing the gun itself. Also, that kind of guideline is the norm for most Wikiprojects: see Wikipedia:WikiProject Sports, as an example. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite14:18, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Although this is specifically about flagicons, it also goes to the more general issue of some WikiProjects just opting to completely ignore aspects of the Manual of Style, or in some cases even core content policies, sometimes (as in this case) without even attempting to present a rationale that would outweight the considerations behind the respective part of the MOS. --213.196.218.39 (talk) 14:07, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest that the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Formula One#Flagicons be limited to the specific issue of the inclusion of flagicons in Formula One driver infoboxes and that any discussion of "the more general issue of some WikiProjects just opting to completely ignore aspects of the Manual of Style, or in some cases even core content policies" remain on this page (which I belive is a more suitable venue for such a discussion). I would also like to point out that the consensus of the Formula One WikiProject is that inclusion of flagicons in driver infoboxes does not contravene the MOS and would invite editors to read this earlier discussion. DH85868993 (talk) 21:40, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If several WikiProjects are ignoring the MOS, then we do have a problem. We have to ask: Why is this happening? Perhaps the MOS has not taken something into account and needs to be more flexible? Blueboar (talk) 12:50, 24 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, maybe. Or some of the regulars at some WikiProjects are just belligerent and dense and in need of the banhammer. The latter appears to be the case where those regulars make no effort to even present a reasoning which would support their personal preferences, as in the case of flagicons in infoboxes. --195.14.198.57 (talk) 16:00, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Still a good relevant question in general. Neither is policy, but wp:mos carries some weight, whereas project guides are overreaching if they claim or imply to be anything beyond just recommendations. North8000 (talk) 13:45, 24 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
True, but WP:CCC is also policy. WP:LOCALCONSENSUS should normally be used as "this requires further discussion", not "your way is invalid because someone decided something different in a totally unrelated discussion". Diego (talk) 10:56, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus is based on arguments. In this particular example case, the regulars at Wikipedia:WikiProject Formula One didn't even attempt to present anything in the way of a rationale for why there should be flagicons in infoboxes in full defiance of WP:INFOBOXFLAG. Therefore, CCC simply doesn't apply. They would need to present a reasoning to justify a departure from the MOS. They don't. They just opt to ignore the MOS and do the opposite of what it recommends. --195.14.198.57 (talk) 16:03, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I really dislike "X trumps Y" arguments. If two pages that offer guidance to editors are in conflict, the important thing is to hold a centralized discussion, focused on bringing the editors involved on both pages into sync... the goal is to resolve the conflict and fix the problem, not to have any one page "trump" the other and "win" the debate.
As an observation (and not intended as a criticism) our MOS pages do tend to lack flexibility. They come across as being "a statement of the rules" (with no exceptions allowed), instead of "an outline of best practice" (with an understanding that there will be exceptions). Blueboar (talk) 14:32, 24 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't mean to elevate the zillion things stated in wp:MOS to trumping anything. But we must recognize that something from a project is often really determined by 1 or 2 people, and that many different projects may "claim" any particular article and then imply that their standard is binding on the article. North8000 (talk) 14:41, 24 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
From my own personal perspective in dealing with WikiProjects for the last several years there are a lot of WikiProject's who force editors to follow their standards regardless of the MOS. They frequently say things like, "its only a guideline not a policy". One example is WikiProject Novels that will remove infoboxes if placed on their articles, others remove other infringing WikiProject banners, others get very aggressive if an unfamiliar editor dares to touch their articles of special interest. I have brought these up many times and no one or very few seem to care. Its really a popularity contest unfortunately more than a fair system of enforcing policy. What I mean in all that is this, if we are going to treat the MOS as a policy then we should enforce breaches of it. If we are not going to treat it as a policy and merely as a guideline to be enforced only when we feel like it or when our friends don't need our support then we should treat it as a guideline. This means however that we inherently allow WikiProjects and editors to do pretty much whatever they want because its just a suggestion. I personally think that too many WikiProjects are being allowed to change and enforce their own rules, keep other WikiProjects from influencing their articles etc. WikiProjects are supposed to be a group of individuals with a common interest working to better the articles in their interest. Not to rewrite the MOS. Kumioko (talk) 16:20, 24 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As Blueboar rightly suggests above, the proper action in those situations is to seek community input, in this case at the MOS talk page. This will allow the Wikiproject members to explain the reasons for diverting from the MOS, and can have the effect to change the MOS itself to accommodate to those reasons, but accepting input from editors not in the Wikiproject. The result of a RfC will be a stronger consensus that can be more easily enforced. Diego (talk) 11:39, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Given that news sources have a lower reputation for fact checking and accuracy in the time after an unexpected and catastrophic event (supported by On the Media, the CBC, and Talk of the Nation), I believe we should add some extra guidance in WP:NEWSORG.
Specifically, I propose to add this to WP:NEWSORG:
After an unexpected and catastrophic event, reports from normally reliable news organizations are more likely to contain errors regarding the fine details of an event such as the numbers of deaths, names of suspects, the timeline of events, and the detailed description of circumstances. Avoid relying on reports from normally reliable news organizations to support such statements in Wikipedia until [they are based on information obtained from named public officials].
User:WhatamIdoing has provided a couple of points opposing this proposal that I will try to summarize. First, the error-rate in the context I describe is not high enough to warrant treating these sources as less reliable. News organizations are reliable enough, even in this context. Second, editors will create articles for these events regardless of this guidance, and attempting to hold them to the standard I'm proposing would in effect mean prohibiting the articles' creation: a futile effort. Sancho00:43, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Why should "named public officials" be defined as the only reliable sources? In many countries they are pretty much guaranteed to be the least reliable sources of factual information, and are often motivated to play down the severity of any "catastrophe" either to avert panic or blame. Whereas "normally reliable news organisations" are not flustered by catastrophes. I don't see any point in this proposal at all. We have the {{current event}} template to advise readers "Information may change rapidly as the event progresses". We can't require articles on recent events to be immediately of archival standard. Barsoomian (talk) 10:57, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You don't understand the motivation behind my proposal? Sorry. I tried to be clear. Maybe it's a bad proposal, but I thought I made the point of it clear. It's because news organizations are not reliable during the short time after an unexpected and catastrophic event. Did you read the supporting sources I linked to that talk about that? The point is to get feedback about consensus about this change. I take it you're against it. Sancho16:10, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding "named public officials", I bracketed out that section now, so we can replace it with some other appropriate signal that the news organizations have become reliable enough again. Also, it says "avoid", and this would just be a guideline, so if this is happening in a place where news organizations are in fact the most reliable thing we'll ever get information from, we can use common sense and use them as a source. Sancho16:16, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your concerns, but it's obvious that early reports can be incomplete or even wrong. That's what the "current event" tag is for. If a fact is reported and not contradicted by another equally or more reliable source, then there is no reason not to include it, and then update it if and when superseded. Anyway, it's impossible to define a "signal that the news organizations have become reliable enough again"; that can only be a matter of opinion. I said why I oppose the idea that government spokesmen are a gold standard. Governments lie, frequently. So, for the above reasons, put me down as opposed. Barsoomian (talk) 18:49, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And even well-meaning government officials often don't have enough facts at the outset to get the story right; just look at the kerfuffle in the U.S. over how the Benghazi embassy attack was addressed. I agree with Barsoomian; the "current event" template highlights all of the relevant concerns by emphasizing that facts are still developing. And so we correct and update our articles as news media--or any official source--correct and update theirs. There's no reason to ignore the news and no workable or meaningful line beyond which it suddenly gets more accurate. postdlf (talk) 19:01, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that "governments lie, frequently" does not mean that everything stated by a government is a falsehood. Such a view is not unlike that that there is a New World Order to which the UN and all world leaders answer. We should look at who is making the report and where. If the government of the DPRK is making a report, we can safely assume it is false unless that is otherwise clearly not the case. If it is a liberal democracy reporting on something that is not as political (ie the Sandy Hook shooting that this discussion was presumably inspired by), then we can assume that the truth is being stated. In any case, we should wait for investigations to be performed before we put in fine details, so I therefore support this proposition. Wer900 • talk02:38, 25 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have no idea why you felt the need to make these idiotic remarks implying that I'm some right wing loonie who thinks the UN white helicopters are coming for him. I said that governments lie frequently, (but of course, not "always") and you clearly agree. The original proposal was to use government statements as a hallmark of reliability, which anyone who reads a newspaper knows would be pretty naive. Barsoomian (talk)
Now that you frame it in this fashion, it makes more sense. When and what we put as fine details in articles should be determined by the nature of the government, whether or not there has been an investigation, and what the reception by the press has been. This is all in line with existing policy, merely clarifying it rather than replacing it. Wer900 • talk20:05, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that named government sources may be reluctant to release information for a variety of reasons including excessive caution about the information accuracy, political correctness or because the release of the information would be politically inconvenient. Even weeks after the event, there can still be controversial information that official government sources still choose neither to confirm nor deny. Sometimes its even a case where the official statement is wrong, and the correction is long in coming. We should not leave the Wikipedia article on something wrong or misleading and at the mercy of what official sources choose to release. Ultimately we must follow what the reliable sources say, and when they are wrong, so will we be. Monty84515:53, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
My premise is that normally reliable sources are not reliable after unexpected and catastrophic events, so we should be less ready to follow what they say during that time. I don't want this proposal to get hung up on the "named government sources" part of this, because I've bracketed that out. I could remove it completely if that's still the contentious part. Sancho00:05, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Process for challenging the closure of a discussion
There should be a formalized process for challenging the closure of a talk page discussion. The relevant Wikipedia: page isn't helpful. A few months back I was involved in a discussion that I thought was closed prematurely. I made no progress discussing the matter on the closing admin's talk page; after that I was at a loss as to what to do. Someone at Help Desk pointed me to WP:AN/I, but there I was told to go to WP:DRN. At DRN there were several rounds of discussion before it was concluded that this was a conduct dispute rather than a content dispute, so I should go back to AN/I. Finally back at AN/I some administrators made a decision.
Long story short, if there was a specific forum designated for such closure challenges then a lot of people would have wasted a lot less time. --Nstrauss (talk) 09:05, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you mean something like Deletion review and Move review then as far as I am aware there is no such process for reviewing RfCs, so if follows that there is no process for reviewing the closure of less formal talk page discussions.
You can consider following more steps from the dispute resolution process, but AFAICT as you are the only person to date who has expressed support for your proposed change, I would suggest that you follow the advise of Beyond My Ken who closed the ANI and this advice on your talk page and just take the articles off your watch list (there are 4+ million other page to replace it) and move on. -- PBS (talk) 13:59, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I cannot believe you are still carping on about this. You've had your say in two RFCs and utterly failed to convince even one single user that your proposed changes would improve the article. While consensus is not the same thing as "majority rules" if literally nobody agrees with you it can be taken to mean that there is not a consensus for your proposal. PBS' above remark is dead on, you need to accept that consensus is not on your side on this one (very minor) issue and move on. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:48, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Unaware of any of this before this VPP post, but after reading the above and the prior, related threads, this is clear WP:FORUMSHOPping and WP:IDHT disruption in my view. I don't think anyone is obliged at this point to explain to Nstrauss yet again that WP:CONSENSUS does not grant any editor a heckler's veto, so if you are completely unable to get anyone else to agree with you on any content issue then that's it. You cannot unilaterally insist that the issue is still open. I think Nstrauss should be blocked if he starts another thread on this again. postdlf (talk) 00:14, 23 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A user creates an account. (Not picked up by the software.) They make a small but useful, good faith, edit that benefits the encyclopedia. This is exactly the kind of user we need. Here's the diff. (I think - this is baffling). DIFF - 'ciil' changed to 'civil'. What's the first thing on their user page? "Hey, welcome to wikipedia! Thanks for helping us fix things! Here's a few useful links, let me know if you need help!"? That would have been a nice way to welcome a new user. NO. What they got was a fucking stupid notice about their username. First, and only, edit of that user was mid november. I posted a grumpy note on the warning editor's talk page on 22nd December, and since then a couple of other people have made nice welcomes to the new user. But it's likely that they've gone, never to return.
When you see a username that you don't like stop and think. Think "So what, who cares" first. Then, if you decide that you do still care READ THE FUCKING USERNAME POLICY CAREFULLY. Find a reason that the username violates the policy. Then WELCOME THE USER TO THE PROJECT PROPERLY. Thank them for their work. Point them to the EXACT PART OF POLICY that their username is violating, and offer to help them change their name. But, really, unless it's a blatant offence, just don't bother biting people over usernames.--82.3.143.88 (talk) 10:50, 24 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Existing username policy is being used to block (effectively, to ban) users who may be problematic. This leads to weird disparities between brand new users (who may be good faith but semi competent) and new users who have shown disregard for policy and culture. Some editors who have demonstrated bad faith get repeated chances at reform and have people offering to mentor them. That effort might be better shown to people who have not shown bad faith, and who have made an effort to improve Wikipedia. 82.3.143.88 (talk) 23:18, 25 December 2012 (UTC) (Holiday season, thus a variety of IPs used. Sorry.)[reply]
This piece does seem quite angry in nature, but I do think that this IP has a relevant point. There should be some sort of guideline (not a policy) detailing how new users should be welcomed into our encyclopedia. Wikipedia may value neutrality, but it is in the best interests of our encyclopedia (and in the interest of free and unbiased knowledge) that we gain new editors. Wer900 • talk02:26, 25 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A relevant article I've always enjoyed is this one on MeatBall. I tend to agree that we are not careful enough when dealing with newcomers. People often say childhood is a formidable time, and in a similar way I think it is also for people starting here. When we need to be discriminate with what we say to these folks we often shoot from the hip. While I don't agree that this particular case was an egregious problem, like most things there could have been a more sensitive touch. Templates are always tricky. I deal a lot with username issues and can say that that also is very tricky territory. A name like this? Personally, I would have left it alone unless the "duck" was clearly referring to something or someone specific. But the good news is that the user was not blocked or reported to UAA, and our most sensitive username warning template was used. But we can always benefit from trying to warmer. NTox · talk03:01, 25 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the considered answer. I apologise for ranting earlier. I agree that it's a tricky area. But this user had made a single good faith useful edit to WP. All I'd really want is a tiny bit more welcome - "Hey! Thanks for fixing that error!" and then talking about the username. (Personally, I wouldn't have mentioned the username until behaviour showed it to be a problem.) 82.3.143.88 (talk) 23:30, 25 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Some users will always be too quick with the trigger - and I believe that handling meatpuppets is a much worse problem here. There is a very good reason the account was noticed only after it edited - we have a bot which reports suspicious user names; the configuration of what strings are considered "suspicious" can be found at User:DeltaQuad/UAA/Blacklist. And the "hate" is set to only be reported once the user edits. Hopefully this will slow down blocks for the "hate" - if not, any admin can always add a LOW_CONFIDENCE there, too. עוד מישהוOd Mishehu18:17, 25 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would also like to point out that some of these users may, in fact, take our advice to create a new account. It's quite possible that the person who created the "IHateTheDuck" account is now editing under some other user name. עוד מישהוOd Mishehu18:38, 25 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is quite possible that I hate the duck registered a new account and is happily editing. I really hope so. I wonder if there's any decent research about people's first experiences with Wikipedia? 82.3.143.88 (talk) 23:18, 25 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Life isn't always warm and fuzzy. Some of our best editors got BITTEN when they first showed up, and learned from that experience. So, in addition to friendly welcome messages, new editors should be told... "EXPECT TO BE BITTEN occasionally ... it's normal. Get used to it." Then they would be prepared for the sometimes harsh reality of editing Wikipedia. Blueboar (talk) 01:11, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Expect to be bitten" would send a wrong message to every editor. It makes it free for all to bite. My guess is that many would leave, and that Wikipedia would be a project for those who don't care how they treat or are treated. Lova Falktalk07:17, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Actually there's a good idea in that advice, if only we invert it. I'd warn them that they should expect NOT to be bitten, as editors should treat them with extra care; and that if it happens, they can report the incident, and the biter may be reprimanded. A pointer to WP:BITE would reinforce the idea that, even if they have a bad first impression, this is not supposed to be how they should be received, and there are places where they can get some care. Diego (talk) 09:23, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) Absolutely. You can tell people to be prepared for unpleasantness, but it would be warped in the extreme to use that as an excuse for encouraging our regulars to be unpleasant themselves. Overall we want to reduce unpleasantness, and those who assume the role of welcoming people should be trying to set a good example. (But I think we know that a significant number of them actually enjoy being bitey and generally unpleasant - that may even be their main motivation for spending time here - so there may not be a lot we can do to stop them.) Victor Yus (talk) 09:26, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also I might try repeating here what I've already said many times on the username policy page - some of the actions taken supposedly under that policy are unbelievably illogical. We fuss about the often irrelevant detail of people's usernames as if someone's choice of name is more important than their editing behavior. Particularly in the case of people who name themselves after their organization and then edit in a promotional way - we imply to them (and it seems that some admins actually believe it to be the case) that their promotional editing would be a lot less bad if only they changed their username to something more anonymous... Makes no sense at all. Victor Yus (talk) 09:35, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So true! We should prefer that editors are honest about their involvement, to alert us that the content of their edits needs to be checked. Lova Falktalk10:17, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Possible hatred towards our feathered friends seems to touch a raw nerve sometimes. I found User:Jayhater had been blocked[14] and, although my comment to the person blocking that this might be an individual called "Jay Hater"[15] met with a sympathetic reply both to me[16] and the blocked user[17], that seemed to be the end of the matter. Thincat (talk) 17:31, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A recurrent problem at WP:UAA is some users inability to recognize that the bot is a very simple program that reports possible problems, a human is expected to look at the name in context and be more thoughtful. So, a name like "Ihate<some ethnic group>" would be a "block on sight" case while "I hate the duck" seems completely harmless. I am somewhat alarmed that an actual administrator warned the user about this name. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:25, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I Please note this edit, where I explicitly add a comment about "I hate". Users who are repeatedly too quick with blocking reported user names should be asked to stay away from UAA, and if they refuse - we may need them desysoped (and currently ArbCom is the only way to do this). עוד מישהוOd Mishehu20:50, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Blocking admin here. Reading the report above, I think you're right that I got this one wrong; please accept my apologies. However, I think this should be understood in its context: Overall, the name-blocking process is highly effective at knocking out many troll/vandals before they even get started, and this process holds back a tidal wave of odious vandalism which would otherwise fill Wikipedia with dreck, making it a less pleasant place for everyone, including newbies. Some are frequent flyer vandals, who use the variants on the same name over and over; others are newbie vandals who helpfully do us a favour by choosing an abusive username. The bot catches lots of names -- about half the time real problems, about half the time not -- and the blocking admins manually review the submissions, and remove non-violations from the list without any further action, warn borderline cases, and block the obvious problem cases, with a variety of block strengths and warning messages.
Sometimes we get it wrong: human beings are fallible. Those who think they can do better at this than the current participants in this process are invited to pick up their mops and do so. -- The Anome (talk) 22:58, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have done plenty of time at UAA, but I grew tired of dealing with stuff like this. It seemed no matter how hard I tried to calm things down there were still hasty blocks in addition to overly enthusiastic reporting and warning from non-admins. However I actually have been considering coming back and doing it again, I just needed a break after two years or so of dealing with it on an almost daily basis. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:24, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Jimmy Wales shouldn't be playing politics with wikipedia. Shutting it down for 24 hours is the worst thing that can happen. It's petulant, and it's Wales own politics. Seriously considering walking away from the project if this keeps happening. Totally unnecessary. Small minded politicking. Un-Democratic. No idea where to post this - no obvious place for complaint. 86.145.1.143 (talk) 21:38, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You saw something where? When? Are you talking about the one-time SOPA blackout from nearly a year ago? If you're going to 'not' complain, you're going to need to have some specifics for anyone to be able to respond. --Onorem♠Dil22:26, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
To counterpoint every one of your claims - the 24 hour shutdown got media attention; it was necessary to halt legislation that would have resulted in draconic regulations on Internet within Wikipedia's home country; it was suggested by multiple people in the Wikimedia Foundation; and the opinions of hundreds of Wikipedians were solicited making it a democratic action (the vast majority advocated the SOPA blackout). If you feel that you have to walk away from the project because of your own personal beef with Wales, feel free to do so, but make sure you have your facts in order first. As it is, your argument is quite the petito principii.--WaltCip (talk) 00:02, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Jimbo supported partial blackout not shutdown: To be fair, Jimmy Wales supported a partial blackout of the English Wikipedia not shutdown, instead favoring the original consensus, to show a temporary full-page banner then allow entry on that day. However, the implemented blackout became a JavaScript-based, notice banner which blocked all access, but users with default no-JavaScript setting (such as in non-altered Firefox browsers) could read any article (or view source), but NOT edit the contents during the 24-hour period. Prior to the blackout, some users posted workarounds in various areas, such as on User_talk:Jimbo_Wales, that JavaScript could likely be disabled to allow reading of articles, and that was indeed a correct prediction. The new-article count drastically dropped during the 24-hour blackout (near zero), and rare-article pageviews dropped to about 50%, during 18 January 2012, as evidence where many users (half?) could neither view articles (or navbox links) nor create new articles on enwiki except by admins (who made a few justified edits). I, personally, had to activate JavaScript to see the blackout banner which was being shown in some U.S. television news reports; otherwise, I saw each article but got view-source everywhere upon edit. -Wikid77 (talk) 09:10, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Wikiproject notes in articles
<!-- please do not add an infobox, per [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical music#Biographical_infoboxes]]-->
<!-- Before adding an infobox, please consult [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Composers#Biographical infoboxes]] and seek consensus on this article's talk page. -->
I have recently been involved in a civil conversation about a Wikiproject note that was removed by a bot and then subsequently re-added by the project members. As seen here at the bot request there was a disagreement about this action. The conversation then was continued at WP:CM#Infoboxes (yet again). were the manner in which the note was removed evolved into a conversation about the notes meaning and placement. I believe a wider conversation on the matter should take place now. Below are our guides on the matter and what I think we should discuss.
Is the information provided in the note or link provided inline with our current policies and/or guides on the subject?
Should a project be adding notes linking back to an "advise pages" showing a debate on a disputed matter?
The issues may be much bigger then just the note on the pages - However I believe the viability of the note its self is what we should talk about at this time.
Thank you for that link - I was triyng to find it - one of the best example of non consensus here on Wikipedia. Also sorry if I did not notify you - I am not perfect :-(Moxy (talk) 17:49, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Non consensus"? You got to be kidding, right? The discussion involved a substantial amount of editors (see [18]), including those "who do not regularly contribute to classical music articles". Toccata quarta (talk) 18:32, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What consensus do you see? The whole page demonstrates the division on the topic - that lead to a conversation about a special template because of this. At some point the project should try and give fruitful advise that is inline with our policies on the matter. But back to the matter at hand - Do you honestly believe that leaving a note that links to an "advice page" that is the opposite of our what our guideline and fundamental principles on the matter says - (pls take the time to read them as they are the consensus of the community). I am sure everyone has better things to do then deal with the projects ownership problems time and time again. Moxy (talk) 20:40, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No...not really. Thats what collaboration is about. The projects have no control over any article and the local consensus of their own manual of style is not policy or relevant to the article itself. The projects have the right to decide what they wish to accept in those guides that they create for themselves but cannot use them to force their will on the article. I regularly remove these types of notes. They are little more than an attempt to push their local consensus on the article and editors not involved with their collaboartion. Simply put...be bold and add an ifo box if you want. Create a discussion and work it out on the article talkpage.--Amadscientist (talk) 02:02, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
1. There is no policy about these "project" notes? Is that correct? 2. If there is no policy about them they seem fine for a few reasons: they are worded politely, and they inform other editors about what likely issues they face (with other editors) in editing the article -- that seems more humane than springing it on them afterward. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:34, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Moxy that there has never been a clear consensus on the topic. I see 2 separate issues here:
the use of these notes - Although there is nothing against using these notes the use of notes in general on articles should be used in moderation. IMO, throwing these notices that X project demands that a certain thing be done or not done, IMO, points to my second point of undo article ownership.
WikiProjects showing what I would consider undo article ownership over articles - WikiProjects are supposed to be a group of editors working towards a common goal, not forcing the community to do things their way, often in contrast to the MOS and other guidelines. The above 2 examples being prime examples. WikiProjects should not and cannot tell another editor, or project (because in many cases these articles are tagged and worked on by more than one project) how things must be done. If they don't like infoboxes then that's all well and good but they cannot and should not be saying and leaving notes that they cannot be used on said article. Kumioko (talk) 14:55, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think it highly appropriate for wikiprojects to leave hidden notes in articles... they alert new editors to old consensus discussions in a quiet and non-confrontational manner. Removing a hidden note simply pisses off those who added it. That said, consensus can change... and there is nothing wrong with asking for a re-examination of a previous concensus (and if a previous consensus is contrary to current official policy or guidance, it should be re-examined).
So... my advice... don't remove hidden notations without discussion... raise your concerns about it on the talk page (or at the project talk page) and ask people to either reaffirm the previous consensus or modify it. Blueboar (talk) 15:19, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with that is, that once the discussion is brought to the articles talk page consensus is frequently gained by numerous members of the "project" voting to do whatever the WikiProject wants. I have fallen victim to that myself and as such have avoided working on articles dealing with the 2 projects mentioned above, as well as others. Some of these projects do not react well to non members and tend to be rather abrasive in discussions demanding their way or the highway. I do agree that removing the notes by an individual editor should be avoided but I think we need to remove them all, based on this discussion, from the articles and get away from this article ownership issue altogether. Kumioko (talk) 15:24, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
To expand further look at the Ludwig van Beethoven article. Multiple heated debates have taken place about this issue and that article. The problem is that Composers has this big note that says per consensus on their project, however this article falls under 6 projects including: WikiProject Composers, WikiProject Germany, WikiProject Deaf, WikiProject Austria, WikiProject Biography and WikiProject Vienna. So this note, IMO, tells these other projects that their opinions do not matter and infers article ownership on behalf of WikiProject Composers. That is the absolute wrong answer and shows why these WikiProject specific article notes should be and need to be abolished. Kumioko (talk) 15:34, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In this case, the note is not pointing to "old consensus discussions in a quiet and non-confrontational manner", but is attempting to bypass consensus (reached at the above cited RfC) that matters should be decided on article talk pages, and instead point to a one-sided WP:LOCALCONSENSUS in what is clearly a confrontational manner. There are around 500 such hidden comments; too many to be discussed individually, as you suggest. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits17:20, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
How much notability is garnered from time on The Ultimate Fighter?
There is a reason that is only an essay, the community is heavily divided between the 3 main options. I for one advocate the use of the singular "they" as the appropriate pronoun to describe a singular person of unknown gender. That is because in my opinion the move away from "he" as the acceptable singular pronoun in such cases is a linguistic fait accompli, and I find the "he or she" construction to be obnoxious when there is a need for repeated use. There are many who vehemently disagree with me, but they will be split between the two options. The only sane thing to do is to treat this in the same way we do WP:ENGVAR disputes and respect which ever use is first established in an article. Monty84516:02, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The 3 options as I see them are "he" "he or she" and "they". I guess you could say there is a fourth option of avoiding the need for a pronoun, but that is not really taking a position on the issue. Monty84516:25, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I also think the 'singular they' is the best option. Is "he" being suggested as a pronoun for chess players because of gender imbalance within the game? Maybe this is not something we should editorially enshrine in language. groupuscule (talk) 16:09, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's nearly always possible to change sentence structure to avoid using any of a gender-specific pronoun, the singular "they" or the clumsy "he or she". It just needs the kind of facility with language that I would expect anyone writing an encyclopedia to have. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:05, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Switching to plural terminology is generally the easiest way, but is it sometimes impossible?? Example: instead of Every student must turn in his work we can say All students must turn in their work". Any time when it's impossible?? Georgia guy (talk) 22:17, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You mean like "Someone shot Mr. Jones, but detectives don't know who he is"? Of course that could be rewritten in several ways, but simply changing to "who they are" doesn't work unless you're counting on readers understanding the singular they. Art LaPella (talk) 22:51, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Even more simply: "Someone shot Mr. Jones, but detectives don't know who". There's no simple algorithm for converting gender-specific language to gender-neutral language, but it can almost always be done with a little thought. Phil Bridger (talk) 23:01, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly its possible, but can be a pain if you need to refer to the person more then one time as you write the article. It can also result in some awkward phrasing to contort away out of using one. Possessives are often harder as well. Monty84500:37, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This might be a daft question but I seem to remember that if a photo is older than a certain age then it's copyright has lapsed and it can be uploaded to Wikipedia. Is this right and what is the age? Ta. Cls14 (talk) 17:52, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What licence is the user feedback under? Do users get informed of that when they leave feedback? Has non-free information been included in meta-project through use of feedback? I ask because I wish to copy and paste a page of user feedback to a blog, and then discuss individual posts. How do I do that and comply with licences? thank you! --87.113.161.104 (talk) 08:22, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The feedback form has a notice saying "By posting, you agree to transparency under these terms", which in turn links to this page: https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Feedback_privacy_statement. That page says "you agree to make your contribution public and to license under either CC0 or CC BY SA 3.0". If you are going to post a copy of a feedback page like this, it clearly says which (IP) contributors made which comment, so you'd have fulfilled the attribution condition automatically. Fut.Perf.☼08:32, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In my browsing, I've noticed brief pop-up notices at certain articles stating how the visible version is the current/latest "accepted" revision. This seems very reminiscent of Flagged Revisions. Can anyone explain what's up? Has the corpse risen from the grave? And if so, it seems I may have missed out on shaping the community consensus. -- Ohconfucius ping / poke09:25, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh. Despite the last series of discussions lasting about two years and widely publicized on-wiki, there still persists a perception that we at some point decided not to use pending changes. That never happened. In 2010 there was a trial run. In 2011 it was temporarily de activated while we decided what to do next. In 2012 there was a big RFC which ended in a decision to turn it back on this month. In between then and now there were a further three RFCs aimed at fine-tuning the policy before redeployment. So, no, there was no corpse to re-animate as it was never dead and yes, this was discussed at some length over a very long period and somehow you missed it. Here is more information:
Current status - Pending changes (level 1) was re-enabled on December 1st, 2012 by community consensus according to the 2012 RFC.
Logged in users – Logged in users (or users choosing to view pending changes) will see all edits as usual (unless the relevant setting has been changed in their preferences). All edits will still be added to the wiki and inappropriate edits must still be reverted or fixed as usual.
Logged out users – Until checked for obvious vandalism or superseded by appropriate editing, edits by new and unregistered users to "pending changes protected" pages will not be seen by users who are not logged in until approved. Edits by autoconfirmed users are approved automatically at level 1 when the prior revision is approved.
Provide feedback and suggestion – Feedback page: Wikipedia talk:Pending changes. Your feedback and suggestions are appreciated.
Each one of the RFCs referenced were listed at WP:CENT for the entire time they were open, and the "big" RFCs of 2011 and 2012 were further advertised by watchlist notices. This was done in the most transparent manner possible by the community, the WMF and Jimbo have been very "hands off" since the end of the trial. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:34, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know to what extent it's related, but it's now really quite deterrent for an IP to edit English Wikipedia. In addition to the ringfence mentioned above, there's the insertion of urls and reference sections: I simply tried adding {{reflist}} and a reference section to an article that was without, and up popped several completely illegible captchas before I came across one that I could parse. That's bad enough for most people familiar with the way WP works, but it's really no welcome for anyone unfamiliar with WP. The frog is now well and truly boiled, meaning the concept of Anyone can edit is now thoroughly eroded. -- Ohconfucius ping / poke04:09, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You could create a new account in the same time it takes to solve a captcha. Considering the amount of time I waste dealing with malicious and/or just clueless IP edits, I don't feel any concern at having a bit more friction in the process. But I guess specifically the captchas are to reduce automated link spamming. If you look at other wikis, those that "anyone can edit" without hassle have been completely swamped by spam. Hundreds of articles created every day with links to porn, sport shoes, fake watches, viagra until the original content is completely lost. Barsoomian (talk) 05:34, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"Burden" RFC
A dispute has arisen in regards to the wording in burden regarding the tagging or removing of content. This request for comment is to establish the specific wording for just that part of the "Burden of evidence" section of our "Verifiability" policy. Found here.--Amadscientist (talk) 05:49, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
New CAPTCHA for unregistered users are too frequent and too hard
Hello,
I've been happily editing as an "IP" for a few years and I think since last month or so I started to get asked to fill in a CAPTCHA for all of my edits, not just the ones that contain a URL. Also, the CAPTCHAs were made much more distorted, and it now takes me 3 attempts on average to get them right. I think this is too much of a burden on unregistered users and I suspect it's unjustified and overall a loss for the project. Could you please point me to the relevant discussion? Thanks. 219.78.114.223 (talk) 14:16, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Something happened about three weeks ago to make the CAPTCHAs almost unsolvable, which has resulted in hundreds of requests for accounts coming into the toolserver for processing via the request an account process. It's taking an inordinate amount of volunteer time. Reaper Eternal (talk) 14:23, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect it depends on which space you are editing, this is just a Project page. So OK, I'm not 100% sure when we are asked for a CAPTCHA, but it definitely has become much more frequent, definitely despite not introducing any new URLs, and the new puzzles are bordering undecipherable. 219.78.114.223 (talk) 14:34, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
