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correcton. I misread the poster
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* Apologies if it was already mentioned above, but, for information, this discussion has been mentioned at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies#Are LGBT people being treated with less dignity?]] --[[User:Demiurge1000|Demiurge1000]] ([[User_talk:Demiurge1000|talk]]) 20:02, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
* Apologies if it was already mentioned above, but, for information, this discussion has been mentioned at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies#Are LGBT people being treated with less dignity?]] --[[User:Demiurge1000|Demiurge1000]] ([[User_talk:Demiurge1000|talk]]) 20:02, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
:*People seem to be forum shopping, rather. [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|talk]]) 20:08, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
:*People seem to be forum shopping, rather. [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|talk]]) 20:08, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''', for the same reasons as before. Oh, wait, the previous discussion ''here'' was closed before I had a chance to oppose it. But you can see my reasons for opposing at the Village Pump, at [[Talk:Suicide of Tyler Clementi]], and probably sky-written by an airplane at the rate this forum shopping seems to be going. This repeated effort to keep reopening the discussion until the community changes our minds is getting to be very annoying. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 20:29, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Revision as of 20:29, 21 April 2013

Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 17 March 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

Untitled

Added a referance and removed no sources tag. (Neostinker 19:18, 3 September 2006 (UTC))[reply]

Requested move 1 - withdrawn

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. Technical 13 (talk) 21:19, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

– A discussion on my talk page got me wondering if these articles fail WP:CRIME, as the victim would not independently be notable? I'm pretty sure that if the sources are available, and the person had something dedicated in their name, then that may qualify for notability. However, unless there is a valid reason to disambiguate these articles, they should be just the persons name, as the WP:PRECISION section of WP:TITLE suggests. Technical 13 (talk) 15:27, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Speedy oppose - This is a humongous multi-move on something so simple (or complex). I suggest that you withdraw this request and then raise this in WP:VPP. --George Ho (talk) 16:27, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Absolutely, categorically not. Speedy close Such articles are not biographies. There have been many such discussions over time, and all discussions have been closed in favour of the title Suicide of Foo for very good reasons: the people are not of themselves notable. Their death is notable. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 16:37, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. These are notable suicides, not notable individuals (and it's a similar situation with most "Murder of . . ." articles). The wording here sums it up well enough. Rivertorch (talk) 17:16, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have no problem withdrawing my proposal at this time. There are just so many forums and this seemed like to be the one that fit the best. Should I raise my issues (details here) on WP:VPP as George suggests, on WP:VPR, on WP:N, or someplace else? They all have redirect pages from "foo" to "suicide of foo", WP:PRECISION says if there is no conflict of names, and the name is available, it should be just "foo". Why would these incidents be notable but the people that the incident is about not be? Perhaps a new section needs to be added to the general notability section that protects these "suicide of ..." and "murder of ..." articles as being notable because the incident was notable. I have no problem leaving the redirects from the "suicide of ..." pages to the persons article. I'm all about discussion and consensus on this, which is why I proposed the move instead of just being WP:BOLD and moving things. Technical 13 (talk) 17:17, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Because notability is not inherited; a person doesn't become notable (in the sense of requiring their own separate biographical article) because they were involved in a notable incident, even one so intimately connected to them as this. Events can be notable, but if the people involved in them aren't notable in their own right, there's no sense in automatically judging them to require a whole new article which will mostly be a duplicate of the event's article, since they're not notable for anything else. This is all in policy already (in things like WP:1E or WP:CRIME); I don't think any changes are necessary, really.
  • Oppose, per my comment above (and others' comments, too) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:24, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Leave it alone. T13, you've been reminded elsewhere to focus on constructive editing of Article space. This is not helping. Perhaps somebody uninvolved can invoke WP:SNOW if T13 doesn't self-withdraw this in good time. —Sladen (talk) 17:56, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've already suggested above that I'm not opposed to withdrawing the request; however, I would like to understand it better. I've taken some time to skim over a few of these articles, and most of them now have "something" named after them and some even have legislation named after them. That being the case, how are the people now not notable? Technical 13 (talk) 18:20, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Discussion about closure

Note that an editor decided unilaterally to revert this closure, made because the nominator had withdrawn it. That is not the appropriate mechanism. If the closure is disagreed with please take the discussion elsewhere. WP:IDONTLIKEIT must not apply to closures. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 19:44, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I believe you are mistaken. Per Wikipedia:Requested_moves/Closing_instructions, only a nominator can withdraw and close an RM discussion:
However, it is fine for a discussion participant to close a requested move in the following circumstances:
...
  • If the nominator wishes to withdraw a proposal about which no one has yet commented, or which is unanimously opposed. In this case, the nominator may close the discussion as "withdrawn".
When George Ho closed the above discussion as "withdrawn"[1], that was an invalid and highly premature close, as he was not the nominator. So I reverted that close accordingly[2], with this comment. You then reverted my revert[3], apparently under the mistaken assumption that the original close by George Ho was legitimate.

I and perhaps others would like to participate in this discussion. This is precisely why only the nominator is allowed to withdraw and close. Involved editors opposed to the proposal such as you and George should most certainly not be closing it. --B2C 21:15, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note replaced George's signature with mine to clarify the issue. If after the discussion on WP:VPP is completed, I may request that "some" of these pages still be moved because I honestly feel that some of them have become notable enough to warrant them being on a page by just their name. As I said in that discussion, the wording on the documentation page for {{Move-multi}} led me to believe that a bot would come through and copy the nomination to each of the pages and each one would either be agreed that there is enough to warrant the move or not on their own and I did not read it as an all or nothing. I apologize for the confusion and hope that me putting my signature on the withdrawn is enough to satisfy all at this point. Technical 13 (talk) 21:19, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • As to your concern about not being able to participate in the discussion, I encourage you to continue to discuss it on the WP:VPP forum. I will not likely comment much more on that discussion that I've been "warned" that any further involvement in the discussion will likely get be indef blocked again, and I wish to avoid that at this time. Technical 13 (talk) 21:23, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Well, if you did not intend to propose to actually move each of these, I can understand withdrawing. But I'm not convinced a strong case cannot be made for each. The title of an article about someone who committed suicide should not be "Suicide of ..." unless the article is exclusively about the suicide, which I don't think it ever is. --B2C 21:30, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • I did intend to propose to actually move each of these; however, I intended to propose it based on each of the individuals own notability (as I believe that most of them now have notability that supersedes their suicide) and not as a group because I don't think that they should be "Suicide of ..." Technical 13 (talk) 21:36, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • Well, if you think each should be moved for the same reason (each individual's own notability), then the group move is fine. We should not have a dozen or more of these discussions separately. --B2C 21:46, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2 (second request)

– First, the only topic associated with each of these proposed titles is the topic of the respective article, as each proposed title currently redirects to that article. Hence, the "Suicide of " portion is more precision than necessary in each of the current titles, per WP:AT.

Second, the topic of each of these articles is the person named in the proposed titles (all but one of the articles has a photo of the person and lists date of birth as well as death, etc., just like any bio). Yes, the reason each is notable is because of events associated with each respective suicide, but the fact remains that reliable sources deem the person to be notable, therefore the article topic in each is the person, not just the suicide, and the article title should reflect that.

This is no different than an article about a person made notable by one particular achievement (perhaps a book, a piece of art, a discovery or invention). Whatever it is, that one thing makes the person notable, per appropriate citations in reliable sources, and so we have an article about that person. Just because the one thing happens to be suicide (or death circumstances in general) does not justify different treatment of the article topic or title. B2C 22:17, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose, and speedy close, for the reasons stated above in the previously closed nomination. This is an exercise in WP:POINT. If at first you do not succeed, try again and again and again until you wear your opposition out. If you objected to the previous closure that needs to be taken to another forum to handle the aspects of the closure. We do not nominate the same set of articles for the same thing again and again and again. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 22:23, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • The previous "discussion" was open for less than 24 hours, and voluntarily closed by the nominator. Although the same titles are involved here, the reasoning is different. Did you read it? The "reasons stated above" do not even address the arguments made in this proposal. --B2C 22:30, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did. It seems you also edited it while I was replying. So, to be clear, the articles, whether they contain biographical material or not, are not biographies. The event of their death is notable, not, unfortunately, their lives, except to those who loved them or, more unfortunately still those whose actions are alleged or deemed to have contributed to their deaths. Articles on deaths of non inherently notable people are not biographies, and their death does not make them notable. I have no intention of knocking down your points one by one. You are making a WP:POINT and articles on suicides of young people is a highly tasteless place to make it. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 22:36, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • You're still missing the point. Consider Florence Rivault who is notable for but one thing: the discovery of one step leading to the invention of the steam engine. Without that one thing, he would not be notable. But that one thing did happen to make him notable, and so we have an article about him (with less content than many of these suicide bios), and we title it Florence Rivault, not The Discovery of Florence Rivault, or something else like that. The entire life of someone does not have to be notable for us to have a bio about that person. In fact, only one thing about a person has to be notable for that person to be notable and have a bio, and just because that one thing happens to be circumstances of a suicide does not justify us treating the article, article scope or title about that person any different than any other bio about people notable for one thing. --B2C 22:45, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Furthermore, I'm not making a WP:POINT. I'm trying to bring these titles in compliance with WP:AT. That's mostly what I do on WP. --B2C 22:47, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict)I am missing nothing. There is not one thing about these poor people that makes them subjects for a Wikipedia biography. IN their lives they had no time, in WIkipedia terms, to become notable. The fact that they died does not make them notable. The manner of their death is, of itself, notable, but they are not. That they died in a set of horrible circumstances is unpleasant and the culmination of a series of things that caused their suicide. What is significant is the examples of (eg) Bullycide that caused them to believe their only escape was death. But their lives do not qualify for a biography here. WP:AT is not the guiding principle here. Notability is. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 22:53, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Notability determines whether an article or content should be included or removed from WP. WP:AT determines what an existing article should be titled. The latter is what is at issue here.

      Yes, there is one thing that makes them subjects for a WP biography, and that one thing is the particulars of their respective suicides, as deemed by reliable sources, or we would not have these biographical articles (and that's what they are - look at them). They're just as biographical as countless thousands of short biographical articles on WP, many of which have less biographical content about their subjects than these articles do.

      By the way, the manner of one's death occurs while one is still alive; it's something that happens in their lives, albeit at the very end. --B2C 23:09, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: To be honest, I don't think any of these people are really notable enough for a stand alone article... what is notable is Suicide due to Bullying. All these articles should be merged. However, I am realistic enough to know that this will not happen. Given this... This seems to be just another debate over the notability of an event vs the notability of a person. I prefer to by-pass such debates. For one thing sometimes BOTH can be notable... we have a bio article on Marylin Monroe, and an event article on the Death of Marilyn Monroe. However, usually one will be be significantly more notable than the other. In such cases, it makes sense to have a merged article. Which article should be the target of the merger depends on the specifics of each case. Sometimes the event will be more notable than the person, sometimes the person will be more notable than the event. In these cases, I would say the events (the suicides) are more notable than the people, and so the articles should remain at their current titles. Blueboar (talk) 23:20, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sometimes we have an article about an inventor (Thomas Edison) and their invention (Phonograph). However, often the person is less famous, and the thing is significantly more notable than the person's life, but we still have the combined information in a biographical article titled with the name of the person. Same with painters and paintings and other artists (e.g., Helen Denerley), music writers and songs (e.g., Stewart Wallace), politicians notable for one office (e.g. Draoui Mohamed), athletes and their sports achievements (e.g., Hikaru Ito), etc., etc.

      Suicide and murder victims are the only two types of biographies that I can think of in which we seem to be biased against having articles about that person, or even biased against just titles that are just the person's name, even if the article is about the person (which is the case in all of these). Why? Why is there no problem to have thousands and thousands of biographies about marginally notable people, each titled with the respective person's name, with content almost entirely devoted to the one thing related to them that makes them notable, but hardly any (if any) content about the person's lives, but such treatment is not okay for suicide victim articles? Why the difference in treatment? --B2C 23:40, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • A rose by any other name.... As long as readers can find it through searching the common name or suicide of... redirects then it shouldn't matter what we call the article. The article has more material leading up to her passing than the suicide itself so an article with her name may be best.--Canoe1967 (talk) 02:09, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as per previous discussions. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:53, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose WP:BIO1E, they should be deleted if they become biography articles. As these are not biography articles, the names fail WP:NAMINGCRITERIA since they are not the topic of the article, they are suicide articles, not biography articles (or should not be biography articles); only events related to their suicides should be contained within, with minimal glossing of the rest of their lives. -- 70.24.250.103 (talk) 04:12, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Specious rationale for the requested move. And why praytell are we discussing this in multiple places? Excuse a bit of rare venting in article talk space, but I really don't know whether to just paste in everything I've written already and sound like a broken record or to spend (waste?) time rewriting my thoughts. If it's the latter, here's a summary: we have guidelines based on years of consideration, conversation, and consensus, and they should not be overturned on a whim. Rivertorch (talk) 05:01, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. These articles do not exist because they are biographies, they exist because they are news/sociology items. They fall under the same broad category as Jamie Bulger and Madeleine McCann, neither of whom merit an article under their own name. WWGB (talk) 06:37, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bullycide of Kelly Yeomans may work better. The article is more about bullycide than Kelly or her suicide.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:42, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I believe my position has been made known based on the previous nomination and the discussion on WP:VPP. Technical 13 (talk) 17:14, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose (again) - Conflict between policies and conflict of notability are not reasons to rename all articles. In fact, every article must be dealt with individually. --George Ho (talk) 19:47, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose As pointed out above, the title of an article depends first and foremost on what the subject of the article is. If the title is the person's name, then the article is a biography, and the person needs to qualify as notable. None of these unfortunate people were notable in themselves. If these articles came to AfD as biographies, they would fail WP:GNG and WP:ANYBIO. The only notability associated with them comes from the manner of their death, which is a single event. And the outcome of the discussion of the article as biography would be either to delete the article or to merge it to a suitable subject, namely, the one event that brought them coverage. That article would have as its subject their death, and it would be titled Suicide of Foo, which is what these articles are already titled. (Or as suggested above it might be a catchall article about multiple such cases.) The individual incidents (i.e., suicides) may or may not be notable enough for an article; that needs to be evaluated on an individual basis. But at least they are currently properly titled, namely, articles about a case of suicide, not biographies of a person. --MelanieN (talk) 02:34, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I think it is silly how we go out of our way to add unnecessary words to a clearly defined title. Apteva (talk) 06:13, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • By which you prove that the title you wish for is not clearly defined, and contradict yourself. An article titled Foo has to contain the life history of Foo, but Suicide of Foo carries the details of the notable suicide that ended Foo's life in an unhappy moment and the circumstances that surrounded it.It is a mistake to consider Foo to have been notable unless they were inherently notable. Since they are not then it is only their suicide that is notable, if it genuinely is notable itself. Most suicides are not at all notable. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 06:23, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • If Foo was not notable, then neither is their death. If their death itself makes them notable, then they are notable. Montanabw(talk) 19:29, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the case of suicides in particular, there is a great deal that led up to the suicide that is often included, and the actual suicide is just the period at the end of the sentence, most of the article is not about the suicide. But yes, I would far rather have an article titled Kelly Yeomans, and have the article explain that they committed suicide and why, instead of trying to put the whole article into the title. Apteva (talk) 07:13, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support:Per my previous arguments at other articles, and at the pump it is inherently dehumanizing to title article only about someone's sensationalistic death. Either the person is notable or they are not. If it is their death that makes them notable to the wider public, they STILL deserve the dignity of an article that is simply their own name, nothing more. More is, inherently, a POV judgment on the value of the whole person and wrong. If WP:AT does not support this, then WP:AT needs to change. The only guideline/policy that is relevant is WP:NOTABILITY. After than name the article after the person. ("Foo") If the person's death is a huge deal, it may be necessary to create a SECOND spinoff article ("death of Foo"), but that should never be the only article so titled. If the concern is ONETOPIC, again, notability is the criterion; sometimes a person is VERY notable for a single thing, but we don't title articles "The one book written by Foo" For example, John Kennedy Toole stands alone, and he mostly did one notable thing (wrote a good book) and then completed suicide as well. To say one person gets a stand-alone article and another gets only a "death of Foo" article is really quite improper. Montanabw(talk) 19:29, 21 April 2013 (UTC) Follow up: I notice that every one of these cases is either female or alleged to be gay. THAT is a serious bias problem: are only adult white straight males notable? Montanabw(talk) 19:39, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • (edit conflict)I have noticed that the people with the poorest arguments seek supporters in all the places they can. Now you propound preposterous home brewed pseudo-theories to seek to extend your weary trudge around this subject. Bullying and insulting are strong words, and rather poor rhetoric. Your wikilink is amusing. I quote from the first paragraphs: "When addressing another editor, it is normally better not to start with the phrase "With all due respect" as everybody knows it really means "Go fuck yourself". On the other hand, using the phrase can be quite handy in a case where you do wish to tell a user to go fuck themselves, but prefer not to be blocked for incivility. Using the phrase and linking it to this essay ensures maximum clarity, but may carry a degree of risk. "I intend no disrespect" can be used in the same way, though a literal interpretation is also possible." So, you have used this very carefully to pretend that you are being civil. And, amusingly, you accuse me of bullying! Well done. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 20:08, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, for the same reasons as before. Oh, wait, the previous discussion here was closed before I had a chance to oppose it. But you can see my reasons for opposing at the Village Pump, at Talk:Suicide of Tyler Clementi, and probably sky-written by an airplane at the rate this forum shopping seems to be going. This repeated effort to keep reopening the discussion until the community changes our minds is getting to be very annoying. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:29, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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