Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

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Sources used in Iranian presidential election, 2013

I would like to ask a question about reliability of the sources used in the opinion polls section of the article on Iranian elections. The sources are all in Persian so I present them for non-Persian speakers.

• This source is Rasanehiran.com and the opinion polls cited here is conducted by IRIB, State TV -which is not independent. About section of the website is empty.
• [1] cites a polls conducted by Tebyan.net. Tebyan is one of the website of the Islamic Ideology Dissemination Organization which is officially under the control of the Supreme Leader of Iran.
• ie92.ir an unknown website. Here the website claims that it supports "the interests of the Islamic Republic".
• this one: Nothing about the website. Who is behind this website?
• iranelect.ir is not an official website and again nothing in the about section. Online survey.
• Tebyan see above.
• a forum.
• alef.ir is the website of Ahmad Tavakoli, a deputy of the Parliament. The polls here is conducted by "a reliable organisation" as is presented in the news article. The name of this organisation is not mentioned.
• Fars News Agency is another source.

No editorial oversight has been presented in the "about" section of these websites. Noted that all of these polls were conducted online and their methods is unknown.

Here is the disputed section:

Poll source	Date updated	Ghalibaf	Jalili	Rezaei	Rouhani	Velayati	Aref	Haddad-Adel	Gharazi	Others	Undecided
Rasanehiran	11 May 2013	21%	10%	9%	7%	7%	5%	2%	1%	37%	1%
Akharinnews	12 May 2013	39.54%	7.21%	–	1.75%	24.74%	2.75%	7.68%	17.39%	–
Alborznews	13 May 2013	15.08%	1.00%	5.07%	0.05%	8.07%	1.03%	7.06%	18.06%	17.08%	9.03%
ie92	14 May 2013	18%	7%	12%	8%	7%	1%	1%	4%	40%	2%
Arnanews	15 May 2013	8.8%	9.3%	3.9%	0.2%	3.3%	0.4%	0.3%	0.3%	70.5%	3.1%
Iranelect	15–16 May 2013	47%	21%	14%	10%	–	–	7%	–	–
Kashanjc	16 May 2013	43.25%	1.25%	5.81%	1.97%	24.04%	2.21%	6.46%	4.17%	9.43%	–
ie92	17 May 2013	16%	7%	11%	7%	6%	1%	1%	5%	44%	2%
Iranamerica	18 May 2013	33.33%	11.11%	22.22%	11.11%	–	–	–	11.11%	–
ie92	19 May 2013	15%	7%	10%	7%	6%	1%	1%	5%	47%	1%
AleF	20 May 2013	19.8%	11.6%	4.6%	12.5%	13.2%	12.5	4.7%	1%	19.1%	1%
Farsnews	21 May 2013	20.1%	13.5%	10.9%	6.6%	7.4%	3.3%	3.1%	0.2%	31.9%	3%
ie92	22 May 2013	31%	17%	22%	13%	12%	1%	1%	0.1%	–	4%
Fararu	23 May 2013	18.84%	9.56%	7.49%	24.36%	3.86%	30.96%	0.93%	4.01%	–	–
Ghatreh	23 May 2013	17.57%	16.83%	6.38%	17.32%	6.9%	30.87%	1.16%	2.92%	–	–
Seratnews	23 May 2013	22.96%	40.47%	4.84%	10.14%	6.93%	9.97%	0.84%	3.84%	–	–
Ofoghnews	23 May 2013	20.00%	19.00%	6.00%	20.00%	8.00%	23.00%	0.1 %	4.00%	–	–

Transfermarkt player profiles

• http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/
• Previous discussion in June 2010 was too short to gain consensus, link is here.
• Previous discussion in May 2012 edned up at cross purposes and never reached a satisfactory conclusion, link is here.

I am bringing this back for discussion - I feel that the player profiles section of Transfermarkt (that is all we are discussing!) is not reliable, as the content is user-generated and there does not look to be any kind of moderation or checking. If I recall correctly, the website was used by notorious vandal Zombie433 (talk · contribs) to introduce false statistics into Wikipedia. I feel that there are plenty of other reliable football database websites so there is no need to use Transfermarkt. Thoughts welcome, let's try and get some solid consensus this time! GiantSnowman 14:58, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't know whether I can comment much on the reliability of the website, but as far as the template goes, I believe in any case we should be removing the possibility of German or Italian links, since this is a template on the English Wikipedia. The connected article, Transfermarkt, doesn't seem to assert any reliability or fact-checking procedures, so that is a warning sign. C679 15:15, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

And if it doesn't "assert any reliability or fact-checking procedures" then it should not be considered a reliable source and I will take {{Transfermarkt}} to TFD. GiantSnowman 16:46, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

It's pretty simple. The following information, if applicable, is user generated: First name, last name, nickname, name in country of origin, date of birth, place of birth, country of birth, height, foot, nationality, 2nd nationality, main position, secondary position, agent, youth clubs, additional info, current club, shirt number, captaincy, 2nd club, 2nd club shirt number, 2nd club captaincy, contract expiry date, contract option, all national team statistics, and all transfers. All edits are subject to approval by the system administrator, but that hasn't stopped people from getting incorrect information, in particular regarding transfers, onto profiles. With so much vital information being user generate there is no way it can be considered a reliable source. Sir Sputnik (talk) 20:28, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Have you got a link confirming the above fields are user-generated? However, assuming that is the case I agree it appears to show it cannot be regarded as a reliable source. Eldumpo (talk) 21:24, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

This is a link to the editing form for Robert Lewandowski, just as an example. Registration is required to access to it though. Sir Sputnik (talk) 19:03, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

So are we agreed that this is not a RS? GiantSnowman 10:18, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

It would seem that way. Sir Sputnik (talk) 00:18, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

"Jay Robert Nash's Encyclopedia of Crime"

I just wanted to make a brief note, for future reference, of a message thread in the Jimbo Wales talk page in which he states that this encyclopedia deliberately inserts incorrect information to ensnare plagiarists. That's pretty shocking. That encyclopedia should not be used as a source, and if it is used that needs to stop. See [2]. This may not be new, but I did a search and found no record of it. Coretheapple (talk) 21:31, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

The practice isn't exactly unheard of. I haven't evaluated the source as to its general reliability, but I doubt that its use of fictitious entries should disqualify its use as a reference here. Obviously, it shouldn't be the only source for something arcane or seemingly unlikely, but the same could be said for any specialty encyclopedia or other tertiary source. Rivertorch (talk) 21:39, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I think that editors would have to know what parts of the encyclopedia are truth or fiction. Without knowing, I don't see how it would be usable at all. It may be a fictitious entry, or maybe something else erroneous. Coretheapple (talk) 00:31, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

One would presume that the fictitious bits are few and far between. If we had strong reason to believe that the Nash encyclopedia had an especially high number of fictitious entries or that they were placed in such a way that they destroyed the basic integrity of articles on otherwise verifiable information, then there would be more cause for concern. Perhaps more detailed information will come to light about the specifics relating to this source. If so, I hope someone will post it here. But the placement of fictitious entries is a practice that has been used over the years by various reference works, some of them of undisputed reliability and among the foremost reference works of their type. Rivertorch (talk) 05:36, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I remember being told at librarianship college (long ago) that one of the standard bibliographies of British publications was trapped in this way, shown to be plagiarising the other one, was prosecuted, and disappeared in disgrace. That happened about sixty years ago, if I have the story right. The method is to insert entire fictitious articles, which would normally be very brief, of low importance, and not linked from other articles. This may well have been a normal practice in the past -- less so now, perhaps, now that there are programs able to compare texts automatically and demonstrate plagiarism in a different way.

It shouldn't matter to us: to get an article established we would always want at least two independent sources, and usually more than that. To rely on a single source would indeed be plagiarism. Andrew Dalby 09:16, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Relying on a single source has nothing to do with plagiarism. Facts are not copyrighted. Of course the source should be cited. An article having a single source is a wholly separate matter from a fact in the article being cited to a single source. Most facts are. Paul B (talk) 09:22, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Relying on a single source does have something to do with plagiarism. But I don't want to get into any arguments -- best of luck to all :) Andrew Dalby 11:04, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

As long as it's cited and the wording is not reproduced too closely it isn't plagiarism. The examples referred to in this section are all attempts to copy source material without acknowledgement. The potential problems of relying on a single source for an article are notability and bias. Paul B (talk) 11:16, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

If Nash is inserting occasional fictitious entries about imaginary criminals as a copyright trap, it can be problematic. I can see people creating articles based on that one source, and perhaps using as "corroboration" another RS that used the fictitious entry as a source, perhaps in a list of criminals. All this could be done without anyone plagiarizing or violating copyright. Do you see my concern? I can understand Nash's desire to catch thieves, but he is creating a problem for Wikipedia and anyone using his encyclopedia as a source for creating of an article anywhere. Coretheapple (talk) 14:42, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

We should never use only one reference to support extraordinary claims or to source esoteric information that cannot be verified using a second, non-derivative source. (Maybe in rare cases we should, but then the content should be clearly presented as "According to x" and not presented in Wikipedia's voice.) As far as article creation goes, notability should not be established based on one source. Rivertorch (talk) 16:52, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I'm sure we all see your concern, but it's not unique to this source. Indeed the "trick" is to avoid alerting potential copyists that there is a fictitious entry, so the same situation may be found in many similar encyclopedas. It typically only applies to this type of source. This does not make the source itself unreliable. I'm sure the entry on Al Capone isn't ficticious. If there are other sources that do not simply replicate exactly the same information we can be sure that that particular entry is useable. Paul B (talk) 17:50, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Other encylopedias have done so also. There is no simple defense against this because all encyclopedias have from the very beginning of the genre copied from each other. The only possible check is something beyond what we normally attempt, and what is normally beyond our terms of references: to do the necessary research in the original sources. (Since OR is permissible in a AfD discussion, I & others have done so here a few times for bios claiming degrees and demonstrated the nonexistence of the degree; I've done so many times for bios claiming books that turn out to have been never distributed; I've also done so many times to clarify sometimes deliberate ambiguities about what a publication or a degree or a professorship actually is.) But this has sometimes been done for less honorable motives, such as a contributor to Appleton's who was apparently paid by the word. The basic rule is that no source is totally reliable To take a local example, the publication with the reputed best fact-checking of any, the New Yorker, was fooled by essjay. We cannot aim for perfection, v=certainly not a degree of perfection that is beyond what anyone in the world can accomplish. In my opinion every provision in WP:RS is only approximate. DGG ( talk ) 04:06, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I understand your point and the other comments, but the only person who seems to have direct information on this encyclopedia is Jimbo Wales, who was in touch with the author and just posted about it on his talk page. That's how I found out about this situation. He said as follows: "Additionally, I was informed by the author of that source that he had deliberately placed erroneous information into his encyclopedia to catch plagiarists, which to my mind destroys the credibility of the work as a legitimate source of any kind." In light of that comment, don't you see my concern? That's why I'm posting about it here. Coretheapple (talk) 17:24, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

The point you made has already been responded to. You now seems to be saying that because Jimbo Wales thinks it's ureliable, we should too. I think his comment simply relects the fact that he's rather shocked to find out that this sort of thing goes on. Paul B (talk) 17:45, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Coretheapple, I think it was entirely appropriate for you to post here about your concern. Thank you for doing so. What you're hearing in response seems to be largely that others are less concerned about it than you are. Rivertorch (talk) 18:21, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

That's right, I think. This was maybe a surprise for Jimbo. Clearly encyclopedias don't broadcast the fact that they do this -- if they did, it wouldn't work -- so we have no easy way of knowing whether many do it, or only some, or only a few. We certainly know this isn't the only encyclopedia that does it (see fictitious entry, already linked by Rivertorch above) -- it's just the only encyclopedia whose editor has mentioned the fact to Jimbo. It wouldn't make sense for us to single it out as unreliable on that basis.

Worse than that, it would be vindictive. After all, it was shown that Wikipedia plagiarised that encyclopedia (it was shown to Jimbo's satisfaction, and I feel pretty sure he was right). If we, in response to that, label that encyclopedia an unreliable source, we're just being babies, I'd say. Andrew Dalby 18:48, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree that it would look vindictive, though I wouldn't go so far as to say it would make us look like "babies." Wales is the one who raised the issue, and if he doesn't want to pursue it I certainly won't. Coretheapple (talk) 22:56, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

I think we may have some concrete examples of such copies without factual verification in this area, not necessarily by this encyc. Articles in question insofar are Vera Renczi and Bela Kiss. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 07:55, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Allegations of CIA drug trafficking

Please take a look at Allegations of CIA drug trafficking and specifically this diff: [3]. The editor has introduced three unreliable sources into the article and I am at 3RR. The sources are:

1. Nexus (magazine) - a fringe publication
2. A YouTube video (uploaded by "GrassyKnollTrolls" no less) of an interview with the person whose experiences are being described [4]
3. A self-published narrative of an individual's actions: [5].

Thanks, GabrielF (talk) 16:28, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Obviously not reliable sources. Nick-D (talk) 10:10, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

The Nexus Magazine citation was included only because it was published. That makes it verifiable. It was not the source of information. I used the persons self published information as a primary source about himself where further verifiable material (documents, flight logs, letters, records) are available. Nexus Magazine was a published secondary source to show that the primary source(s) had actually been published. That is a Wikipedia requirement for using Primary sources that are not about themselves. In this case however the self published primary source WAS a source about himself AND it had also been published. Therefore, the use of all three sources together was perfectly acceptable by Wikipedia Standards. In the entry I included only a sentence or two to say something about his notability and that he made public accusations related to the topic of the article. I included nothing extraordinary in my entry about his claims and accusations requiring an impeccable/ unimpeachable source. The articles subject is about accusations rather than confirming proof. I think It should be included because the fact that this person made accusations is easily verified by his own self published or public admissions and also in published material, however reputable.Johnvr4 (talk) 19:18, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

That's not how sourcing works on Wikipedia. You can't take three unreliable sources and combine them to make a reliable source. Wikipedia is not in the business of evaluating the reliability of personal narratives or of primary source documents such as flight logs and letters. That's a job for historians or journalists. We use the secondary sources that journalists or historians produce. Please see Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. GabrielF (talk) 20:46, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

"A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge."

Is it that the source in unreliable because it cannot be verified or because they print content that you do not agree with. I have never read this magazine myself and have no knowledge of it other that the published article I cited. As an administrator and in the past, you have called it a fringe magazine and unreliable. You display an award for deleting the type of content you state the magazine prints. Is there not one word of truth in those pages? It might be a piece of crap, I really do not know. But can't you easily verify that the allegations were made and published without getting into the merits of the accusation or vilifying the entire magazine? I made no comment about the merits of his accusation, only that he made an accusation and has some additional evidence that he presented.Johnvr4 (talk) 14:18, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Two questions about if economic chart RS

This is a very narrow issue regarding a chart in an article which has been lost sight of among a lot of soapbox (and 1 RfC) on other topics, so hopefully this noticeboard can help.

• Regarding this diff and this source, a chart in "Varieties of Error" by Paul Krugman in NY Times.
• This is the statement in contention: Krugman points out that in the period from 2007 to late 2012, the monetary base increased by more than 350% with concomitant price inflation of less than 3% per year.

1. Can we claim that Krugman discusses the chart when he makes no explicit reference to it or those numbers and it probably just was inserted by NY Times editors, even as they often insert their own titles?
2. Can the facts that editors allege are drawn from the chart in the above sentence be supported by any reasonable editor or reader or are they just WP:OR??

Hopefully people will stick to this narrow issue. Thanks. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 21:11, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

The way the other editor phrased it was not ideal, although it's fair to assume that Krugman did in fact intend what the other editor wrote -- given that the chart is in Krugman's column and he is responsible for its content (even if that means he may from time to time have to later go back and correct or explain something that was in error or that was likely to be read as meaning something he did not intend, regardless of whether he put the info in or an assistant or editor did). The way you phrased it in the edit that the other editor reverted has the advantage of avoiding needing to make any assumptions. (Your phrasing in that reverted edit left out a critical bit of information, though: both the consumer price index rate and the monetary base need to be mentioned.) Adding a citation of this other Krugman article would probably help buttress the statement of what Krugman's position has been. Dezastru (talk) 01:37, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

OK, I see here that my question finally has brought an attempt to rectify the problem at this diff, though there was some synthesis of two articles so I tweaked it here to conform with the first source. Thanks. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie 11:50, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Spoke too soon. The editor insists on writing that the December 11 2011 Krugman article supports the assertion that inflation to late 2012 was such and such. Well, I put failed verification on it, see if that works... sigh... CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 14:21, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Now your link has been removed and it's back to its original version. How can we have a chart which makes no sense to prove a point the person quoted doesn't explicitly make? At least someone could clarify why the 80 on the left axis equals less than 3%. Well, I guess I can ask for someone at Wikipedia:WikiProject Statistics to provide it in case no one here can. Thanks. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 15:35, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

That graph as published in the NYT really shouldn't be used as a Wikipedia source for making a statement that is precise down to 3% because the markers on the Y axis are not that precise, and Krugman doesn't explicitly say anything about 3% in the accompanying text. As I understand it, the Y axis starts at 80 instead of 0 because it's an index, with the baseline set at 100 (which falls conveniently between 80 and 120). I assume it's done that way because there are two disparate kinds of data being plotted on the same graph, so the data needed to be normalized to appear together. A reader can eyeball the graph and get a ballpark idea of changes that occurred (eg, the "monetary base tripled"), but being more precise than that would be inappropriate. Dezastru (talk) 16:58, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for confirming what I thought might be the problem but which I am not sufficiently technically proficient to put into words. Also, I'm wondering if it is a NY Times-created graphic based on St Louis Fed statistics because using much of the title in images.google search I could not find one with that title. Not that it probably matters, one way or the other RS wise. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 17:25, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

OK, editor removed reference to chart and properly reflected above ref and current one so hopefully it's settled. :-) CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 01:06, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Blabbermouth.net

• Blabbermouth.net, a metal music-oriented news blog with no coverage by independent sources, operated by one person. I'm posting this here after having it recommended at Talk:Metallica#Self-published source in a BLP article, so this would serve as a continuation of that discussion. More details available at that discussion page. Dan56 (talk) 01:18, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Unless there are any objections to the points raised at the cited discussion, can this post be used as a reference if an editor tries to cite the site as a source? Dan56 (talk) 22:22, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Acording to another user, Blabbermouth is reliable to the point that it is used as a reference by other reliable sources. I don't see it as unreliable. What happens is that the website mostly posts material based on other sources - much like Wikipedia. Most of their news come from other magazines, radios, press releases, etc. Victão Lopes ^{I hear you...} 23:29, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

So its about as reliable a source as Wikipedia? Something like this doesn't credit any source, yet claims to be reporting Nielsen SoundScan figures? And it's a blog run by only one person, who has admitted to getting rumors "half right or not at all" ([6]), so how does it have a reputation for "checking the facts" or "meaningful editorial oversight" (WP:QS). News blogs are only acceptable if the writers are professional (WP:NEWSBLOG). Dan56 (talk) 00:22, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

I see your point. My main concern is actually the number of articles in which me and other editors have used it as a source. The addition of Blabbermouth.net in the list of bad sources would result in many articles having it removed and, whenever possible, replaced with the original source. In case there isn't any credit, than the source will have to be removed, and I fear some articles will become candidates for deletion for lack of good sources, and, well, that would be too bad. Victão Lopes ^{I hear you...} 02:32, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

If you want to prove that Blabbermouth is untrustable, you'll have to indicate at least one concrete post by Blabbermouth which is refuted by some other more reliable source. I haven't seen any information distributed by Blabbermouth which is proven to be inaccurate. The main concern is the good faith of it's editors, but as Victor said, the posted material is based on other sources.--Вик Ретлхед (talk) 09:55, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

No I don't. I have to cite the relevant guidelines to show that it is a questionable source, which I clearly have (otherwise, what's the point of having WP:QS and WP:NEWSBLOG say what they say?). With regards to Victor's point, you don't have to remove the references to Blabbermouth in articles. Instead, you can place a tag next to it such as Template:Better source or Template:VC. If there are articles that mostly rely on Blabbermouth, then that is an indictment of those articles' notability that there isn't enough third-party coverage of those topics. Nothing needs to be removed, just don't encourage further use of the source. Dan56 (talk) 14:07, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

As I posted here, this site passes WP:RS. It is an independent third-party site with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy (as shown by the large number of other reliable sources which reference it, including major publications like Billboard and Rolling Stone). This is not a "blog", and so WP:NEWSBLOG does not apply (NEWSBLOG applies to, say, a reporter or editor from the New York Times having an editorial blog hosted on that site). I don't see that WP:QS applies either. While you use a partial quote taken out of context, "getting rumors half right or not at all", here is the full quote, in context, showing that the site does put in the effort to check its facts: "Whenever I hear a rumor about a band, I do some digging around to see if there is any truth to it. Since it's usually very difficult to get any kind of confirmation on these things, I often have to make a judgment call and decide whether or not to run a story based on the available information (which at times could be very limited). Most of the time, the rumors turn out to be correct, but there are those occasions when I only get it half right or not right at all. When that happens, I make it a point to run a follow-up item either quoting a band representative refuting the original story or simply informing the readers that the information contained in the previous article was incorrect and hopefully offering some newly confirmed correct information (if possible)." That looks to me like the editor (Bori) puts in the work to prevent posting incorrect information, and will retract the article or correct it if it does end up being incorrect. Certainly in the small handful of cases where the site gets it wrong, if another source can confirm that the Blabbermouth article is wrong, then that source should be used instead. But this should be done on a case-by-case basis, instead of simply deciding that Blabbermouth is not reliable at all. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 22:22, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

How is it not a blog? Dan56 (talk) 03:20, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Listen Danny. Can you prove that Blabbermouth is "considered by other sources to be extremist or promotional, or that rely heavily on unsubstantiated gossip or personal opinion."?? Can you prove that it "has a poor reputation for checking the facts, lack meaningful editorial oversight, or have an apparent conflict of interest"?? Unless you can, I don't see your point in questioning it's reliability (read again WP:QS).--Вик Ретлхед (talk) 11:44, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Who's responsible for "editorial oversight" if there's only one person running the blog? He doesn't have an editor. I thought that sort of gave it away. Dan56 (talk) 18:13, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

How is it a blog? (It's not; it's a news site.) Bori is the editor, he's the one who provides the editorial oversight (as users can submit news stories, but he would be the editor deciding if that information should be added). Again, nothing you have said has shown that this is not reliable, and I notice that you could not refute anything I said above.

Also, do not edit other editors' comments. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 18:27, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

A personal website with reverse chronological (unauthored) posts. So user-submitted news stories? And pardon me for removing "ny"--signature clearly reads "Dan56". (WP:SPS) Dan56 (talk) 21:28, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Colin Wilson on true crime, e.g. on Bela Kiss

Are his books such as A Plague of Murder authoritative? I have some doubts given the complete lack of sources/footnotes etc. in that book. The same info is basically found in a web of "crime libraries" and other dubious encyclopedias, with more or less detail. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 07:48, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

That book is published by Constable & Robinson Limited, which is a reputable publisher, and therefore as reliable as any other "true crime" book. We should use academic writing where available, but it often is not for true crime. His book Atlantis and the Kingdom of the Neanderthals: 100,000 Years of Lost History otoh is published by Inner Traditions – Bear & Company, which specializes in the occult and therefore would not be rs. TFD (talk) 06:45, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, a recent academic analysis (by Christiana Gregoriou) of the true crime writings of another prolific author, those of Nigel Cawthorne (who also wrote about UFOs and what not), found them full of tabloidization and fictionalization. Wilson has the hallmarks of another polyvalent, high-output writer, so I'm treating his true crime writings with skepticism. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 15:51, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

I do not see how Wilson is responsible for what Cawthorne wrote. However, Gregoriou criticism related more to Cawthorne's writing style and his politically incorrect opinions. So for example, Cawthorne wrote, "Nilsen decided to relieve him of the pain of his miserable existence." Certainly that is not how an article in a criminology journal would read, but a reasonable editor would be able to see this as editorializing. Tabloid journalism btw is acceptable as a source, but editors should use the best sources available. TFD (talk) 18:49, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Is the University of Westminster a good source for its claims

The University of Westminster claims that "The University of Westminster currently has the largest... Scholarships Programmes in the UK"[7] may we use the given source to make the statement? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 15:12, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

This is a content dispute at Priyadarshini Raje Scindia. Yogesh wants to say something like She is the patron of University of Westminster's scholarship programme, the programme claimed by the University to be the financially largest in the United Kingdom. (this is what the article said before I pruned it). I consider the claim itself to be (a) extraordinary and (b) not supporting the statement that we had made - "largest" has many meanings and the source does not say "financially largest". I'm reluctant to use a primary source for any statement of this type and I argue that even if the university's claim were valid, it is irrelevant to the article. - Sitush (talk) 15:43, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

(ec) Looking at that quote, and that source, the largest problem I see is that 'largest' isn't well-defined. Does it mean 'largest number of students', 'largest number of awards', 'largest individual awards (by cash value, per year or over four-year programme?)', 'largest average award (by cash value)', 'greatest average value per student', 'largest endowment', etc.? It would be far better to find an independent source – perhaps whatever survey or study the University of Westminster uses as the basis for its claim – that makes clear what is 'largest', and when and where it applies. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:48, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

It is implicit that it is financially the largest from above, and it is explicitly mentioned here as such. That Scidia is the patron is extraneous to the present discussion as that isn't disputed,^{Agree that the context needs to be mentioned. Striking off the extraneous part. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 16:06, 12 June 2013 (UTC)} the dispute as I understand is: "Whether we can rely on the University's claim of being the most moneyed scholarship". Yogesh Khandke (talk) 15:52, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

RSN now require that we give the context in which the source is intended to be used. That's why I mentioned the article. - Sitush (talk) 15:53, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Yogesh, this is an extraordinary claim and it impacts on other universities in the UK. As such, we really cannot use a primary source even if we can find some other page on the same website that clarifies "largest". - Sitush (talk) 15:56, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you in that it is primary and not the best source, but is it good enough? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 15:59, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd say no. Such statements should be cited to third-party sources. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:08, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree. I wonder if someone is modestly wanting to say that her money makes it the financially largest in the United Kingdom? That's the only way I can see in which the financial magnitude of the program could be relevant to her biography. Patron can mean various things. If I happen to have guessed right, to show the relevance of this information we'd want a source that says the relevant financial contribution is hers; without such a source, the information (setting aside its problems of definition) isn't relevant to her biography. Andrew Dalby 09:32, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

In my view, the University is not claiming to have the largest fund in terms of money but only in numbers of students. (Quote: "Currently over 1900 undergraduate students across the University, a figure far higher than most universities, are entitled to funding due to their financial circumstances." (from the link above)) Regardless, what does it mean to say you are a "patron" - that you donated £5 (and claimed tax relief)? I suspect there is another agenda here to promote the subject above their station and would be wary of including any mention of UofW until an actual amount can be established that shows Scidia has done something out of the ordinary in respect of this fund. Emeraude (talk) 09:50, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Incidentally, UofW in 2013 is offering 412 National Scholarship Programme awards, by no means the greatest number in England (see Complete University Guide and follow link to spreadsheet grid). Of course, there are other bursaries and awards available, but this is certainly a good starting point from which to examine the claim. Emeraude (talk) 09:58, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

(1) One version of the claim verbatim is "Westminster has the most generous scholarship fund of any UK university".[8] Generosity implies financial largess. (2) It also mentions that she is "the new patron" of the programme, that makes it clear that there is only one patron. (3) The University has exhibited their relationship with Scindia on their website and not the other way round, the University hasn't provided details as to why she has been nominated as the programmes patron by them, so it is not fruitful to speculate. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

I think we have established that we shouldn't be using UofW sources for statements regarding how 'generous' their scholarship fund is. The source is neither appropriate, nor unambiguous. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:30, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Ambiguity is a matter or interpretation. I would ask how about using "claimed by the University to be the "most generous"? That is a verifiable fact, isn't it?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 11:33, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

It is verifiable that the university made the claim. Frankly, I can't see why this needs to be added to the article in question though - it looks to me to be padding. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:42, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

The most relevant source - and the one that people seem to be quoting but not linking to - is this UoW press release] from 2011: "Westminster has the most generous scholarship fund of any UK university,...." . Unfortunately, it remains unclear what is meant by "most generous" - is it a few very high value awards or the greatest number of awards, but of low value? However, I tend to agree with AndyTheGrump that it seems to be no more than padding for the article. Emeraude (talk) 13:01, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, it is not fruitful to speculate. Which is why I cannot understand why you do so in the very message that makes the comment. For example, "implies". - Sitush (talk) 00:35, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Brickens

A request was made to the WikiProject Ireland to reassess the Brickens article but I am rather wary to give advise until I determine some issues. The article uses various maps as citations even though they don't actually state the facts alluded to. Can these be acceptable as reliable sources? I personally doubt it. I also find it very odd to see embedded links to external images, especially as their copyright status is unknown, which I though was also discouraged. Any comments and advise happily taken. ww2censor (talk) 16:12, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Aside from the copyright issue which I'm not so sure, wouldn't it be helpful is specifics were mentioned, like "X is stated based on a map which isn't actually not there" or the like. I may not be there to reply but I opine that specifics would be more useful to anyone who would judge. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 16:23, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

http://www.timeslive.co.za/

This source was being used as a genre citation on the 30 Seconds to Mars page, but an editor keeps removing it, insisting that it's not a reliable source. It looks like a reliable source to me since it appears to be a news website with professional writers. Thoughts?

It is a source that you recently added and, since you are insisting, it seems that it fits to you. How can you say that it is a news website with professional writers? Any fact? However, as I already said to you, that source does not seem to be reliable per WP:V. If it says the truth, it will be not difficult to find reliable sources that support your stuff. I reverted again your edits, you can't add that source ignoring WP:V and without discussing.--Earthh (talk) 19:52, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

PRISM and an Associated Press article discussing the Najibullah Zazi case

Hi! From the talk page of Talk:PRISM_(surveillance_program)#Did_the_NSA_stop_Najibullah_Zazi.3F a Wikipedia user argued that an Associated Press article is not a reliable source because it does not show that the journalist did due diligence in doing research.

The article in question is this:

• Apuzzo, Matt and Adam Goldman. "NYC bomb plot details settle little in NSA debate." (Archive) Associated Press at Yahoo!. Tuesday June 11, 2013.
  • ...which argues that the FBI could have established a warrant for Najibullah Zazi's arrest as they had established that he was a suspect for terrorism, which means that PRISM was not necessary.
• The article says "That's because, even before the surveillance laws of 2007 and 2008, the FBI had the authority to — and did, regularly — monitor email accounts linked to terrorists. The only difference was, before the laws changed, the government needed a warrant. To get a warrant, the law requires that the government show that the target is a suspected member of a terrorist group or foreign government, something that had been well established at that point in the Zazi case."

The Wikipedian argues that because the article lacks"93 wn app 154 "quotes by legal experts, law enforcement experts, prosecutors, or defense attorneys" the journalists did not do their due diligence and this article should not be considered a reliable source for the statement that "The FBI suspected that Zazi was a terrorist so they could have gotten a warrant and there was no need to use PRISM." Also he argued that it does not give an opportunity for the US government to respond to the claims made. WhisperToMe (talk) 21:13, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

That's roughly my position, though I wouldn't put it in exactly those words. The initial poster (Fatum81, although WhisperToMe appears to have taken up the cause) seems to contend that the disputed source can be used for its central thesis: "And they've left out one important detail: The email that disrupted the plan could easily have been intercepted without PRISM." (4th paragraph of source.) The problem is that the analysis that gets the authors to their conclusion appears to be completely their own. There are no quotes or supporting statements by anyone supporting their analysis. As far as I know the authors aren't subject matter experts themselves. In addition the authors do not say they gave anyone the opportunity to rebut their analysis. Thus in my view this is little more than opinion masquerading as news. --Nstrauss (talk) 22:02, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Often when I see opinions of journalists I like to attribute things to them - Such as "Matt Apuzzo and Adam Goldman of the Associated Press said ..." - That way it's clear that the analysis is done by the journalist WhisperToMe (talk) 22:32, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

That might relieve my WP:RS concerns but create other issues such as WP:UNDUE. The authors of the source aren't particularly notable. I'm sure we could find other, higher-profile columnists or bloggers who have said the same thing. Senator Wyden already said something along these lines, didn't he? Only notable opinions of notable speakers should be included in any article, and then only when either the opinion itself is part of the story or when there's no reliable source on the subject. In this case I suspect there will be much more reliable news sources reporting on the subject in the.coming days. --Nstrauss (talk) 01:02, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

IMO the best way to relieve UNDUE is to gather sources and start culling them when you have too many. With "smaller" topics I tend to take whatever I can find but with "bigger" topics you have to cull them down. Anyhow, I found: Pilkington, Ed and Nicholas Watt. "NSA surveillance played little role in foiling terror plots, experts say." The Guardian. Wednesday June 12, 2013. WhisperToMe (talk) 01:09, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Ah, good find, an excellent source, much better than the AP one. See how the authors qualify their conclusions ("critics say...") and rely on multiple opinions by experts. I don't think this Guardian article makes exactly the same point as the AP one but it's closely related. Does this resolve our dispute? --Nstrauss (talk) 06:09, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Sounds like it does :) WhisperToMe (talk) 15:48, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Religion of Chanakya

• Is any of these sources reliable for establishing the religion of Chanakya as hinduism?
  • http://philosophy.ru/library/asiatica/indica/authors/kautilya/canakya_niti_sastra.html
  • http://gorakhpur.nic.in/gazeteer/chap2.htm, http://www.cnlu.ac.in/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52
  • http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/Poll-wary+Bihar+CM+woos+Brahmin+voters/1/92572.html
  • http://m.outlookindia.com/story.aspx?sid=4&aid=240066

• How much weight do they hold against these which says he was a follower of Jainism?
  • Padhy, K. S. (2011). Indian Political Thought. PHI Learning Pvt. Ltd. p. 33. ISBN 978-81-203-4305-4.
  • Natubhai Shah (2004). Jainism: The World of Conquerors. Motilal Banarsidass Publishers. p. 60. ISBN 978-81-208-1938-2.
  • Helmuth von Glasenapp (1999). Jainism. Motilal Banarsidass Publ. p. 42. ISBN 978-81-208-1376-2.

Diff: [9] Rahul Jain (talk) 03:49, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Woman article help please

I am having a problem with an editor at the Woman article where an editor refuses to use any of three online dictionaries for information on the origin of the word "woman" and instead insists on using his own dictionary which is not online and, according to the editor, has a different origin than the online dictionaries. Could I get some help? The discussion is on the talk page. Thanks. Gandydancer (talk) 11:21, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

I made a comment at Talk:Woman. I think, as a general thing, we can't always assume that the most reliable sources on etymology are available online. It'll come, no doubt ... Andrew Dalby 16:40, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

history sources from Communist propaganda

Source: Janusz Radziejowski. (1976, English translation 1983) The Communist Party of Western Ukraine: 1919-1929. Toronto: Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies Press at the University of Toronto: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0920862241/ref=dp_proddesc_1?ie=UTF8&n=283155 (The translation is not a revised edition)

Article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Ukrainian_minority_in_Poland

Content:

"In the 1920s, the situation of the Ukrainian and Belarussian minorities was generally worse than in neighboring countries...in Transcarpathian Ukraine the first Ukrainian school system was only in 1918, when this area was incorporated into the new Czechoslovakian state. But already by 1921-1922 89% of Ukrainian children were attending Ukrainian schools"

, pg.7

An editor insists on using Soviet era Communist propaganda that life was better generally in the USSR than in Poland, and education of Ukrainians was specifically better. It distorts the history the Second Polish Republic as part of “the defilement of everything Polish” and reducing education to communist propaganda under communism. (The Soviet Occupation of Poland , Free Europe Pamphlet #3, (1940) edited by Casimir Smogorzewski. http://felsztyn.tripod.com/id15.html) See also Marc Ferro, The Use and Abuse of History, or, How the Past is Taughtafter the Great Fire (2003) Chapter 8, Aspects and variations of Soviet history.

The comment is out of a larger context, but it appears to be used only as introductory or background information by the author, and is simply repeating Communist era propaganda against the Second Polish Republic. It was not the focus of the work. Nothing published under communism can be considered a reliable source unless it is independently confirmed. The fall of communism has allowed modern historians to reexamine the history of the era. Some here don't want to move away from the official Communist version of history.

According to the quote from Faustian, life was better for Ukrainians in the Soviet Union than it was in the Second Polish Republic. Now better is a subjective term, but considering the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor occurred in the Ukrainian S.S.R., it defies belief from anyone other than a communist apologist. So did the Holodomor not occur, or was there a greater policy of starvation of Ruthenian peoples in the Second Polish Republic that no one has ever reported? You will note the response, or lack thereof, from the editor presently holding the page hostage to his POV.

Jan Gross also disagrees and note that Poles saw "in the marketplace how these Soviet people ate eggs, shell and all, horseradish, beets, and other produce. Country women rolled with laughter" Jan Gross, Revolution from Abroad: The Soviet Conquest of Poland's Western Ukraine and Western Belorussia (2002), pg. 46 We have other contemporary accounts:  "All witnesses are unanimous in stating that the Bolshevik troops on entering this part of Poland (which was generally regarded as a poor and backward region) were seized with admiration for the extraordinary wealth and abundance of the country into which they marched. … The women," writes an eye-witness, " wore rags wrapped round their feet or felt slippers, instead of shoes: they brought all their family belongings in one battered suitcase, and sometimes even an iron bedstead. Bedding was not known to them and the luxury of fresh linen was never dreamed of in the Soviet Republic, even by dignitaries and important women commissars. The pick of the Soviets sent out for display to this bourgeois country were ignorant of the simplest arrangements of everyday life. Accustomed to being herded together, they did not understand the superfluous habit of enjoying individual lodgings: bathrooms and kitchens they considered as uncanny inventions, and their way of feeding and housekeeping could - by its extreme misery and primitivity - only make one think of the simplicity of requirements attributed to cave-dwellers." The Soviet Occupation of Poland , Free Europe Pamphlet #3, (1940) edited by Casimir Smogorzewski. http://felsztyn.tripod.com/id15.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.44.15.214 (talk • contribs)

So here is the rest of the quote from Janusz Radziejowski: "In the 1920s, the situation of the Ukrainian and Belarussian minorities was generally worse than in neighboring countries; in terms of employment and wages, Ukrainians and Belarussians were even worse off than they had been in tsarist Russia...”

For this statement to have been true, for Ukrainian and Belarussian minorities to have been worse than in neighboring countries in terms of employment and wages, this would mean that Ukrainians and Belarussians in the Second Polish Republic would have been worse off than those it the Soviet Union. So I have asked Faustian this question: “So did the Holodomor not occur, or was there a greater policy of starvation of Ruthenian peoples in the Second Polish Republic that no one has ever reported?”

He has not answered that question. He has given us a link to a discussion about how many died in the Holodomor, from which we may assume that he is now acknowledging that it did occur. Therefore, we must demand that he provide us evidence of a greater policy of starvation of Ruthenian peoples in the Second Polish Republic that no one has ever reported. We are waiting...

Lastly, even a respected academic is limited by the information which is available to him. When all that is available to him is official government propaganda, the conclusions which he tdraws from that information are unreliable. This should be obvious to anyone with any common sense, but those who have an agenda refuse to consider common sense.

Garbage in, Garbage out.

Syrian Civil War: Local Coordination Committees of Syria and Syrian Observatory for Human Rights

The Local Coordination Committees of Syria (LCC) and Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) are two news outlets clearly affiliated to the Syrian opposition against the Assad regime. They publish daily death tolls which are usually unconfirmed by independent sources and which have been used, inter alia, in the Timeline of the Syrian civil war on a very regular basis. I have raised the issue of their use in two different venues (Neutrality board and AfD for Timeline of the Syrian civil war (from May 2013)), but I feel we need a solution which covers WP.EN in its entirety. So, do you feel the LCC and SOHR are reliable sources which can be cited in WP or do you think these two groups are fundamentally unreliable sources and material relying on them should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion? Gun Powder Ma (talk) 17:08, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

From the AfD, we've more or less agreed as far as I can tell that using these sources (especially the death counts) isn't reliable, but more a stopgap measure until more reliable, independent sources are found, whether they cite LCC/SOHR reports or not. I feel like this is sufficient. Ansh666 19:05, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

I can't find the concept of a "stopgap"in WP:RS nor do I interpret the AfD that way. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 23:08, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

True, and true. However, we do agree that LCC and SOHR aren't reliable directly quoted or cited, correct? So this discussion is mainly about what to do with them. It seems they have been removed from the article in question, so that's what we should do to them - remove them. Ansh666 23:21, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

This was (partially) recently discussed here. Please see Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 149#SOHR. My suggestion in that discussion was that the "Syrian Observatory for Human Rights" should only be used as a source for anything via citations to clearly reliable sources (by which I mean first-rate media outlets such as the BBC, New York Times, etc) which have judged that its information on that topic is reliable. Its methodology is dubious to put things mildly. Nick-D (talk) 10:33, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Syrian Observatory for Human Rights is a non-partisan, neutral organisation. It routinely criticises both the government and the opposition for human rights violations. Show how it is biased?! Jafar Saeed (talk) 14:09, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

As noted in the earlier thread, the "Syrian Observatory for Human Rights" (which is a rather grandiose name for what's essentially a one-man operation run from a house in the UK) is routinely described by reliable sources as being aligned with the anti-government forces. Nick-D (talk) 23:30, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Center for Investigative Reporting

I am wondering if this PBS video which says is made in cooperation with Center for Investigative Reporting is reliable enough to back claims of rape in this article.Kazemita1 (talk) 22:49, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Both PBS and the Center for Investigative Reporting are good sources. You didn't say explicitly what information is coming from the PBS video, but it seems that there are several other sources that discuss rape in the prisons as well. TheBlueCanoe 10:53, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Canon Law question

Please see this site. I removed the source because it is from a self-made website without even basic information that reliable websites have. Also, the information it is used to source can be easily found elsewhere, and it appears the website is added wherever possible to direct more people to this page. I would like an outside opinion, as I am a bit suspicious of whether this site should be even on Wikipedia to begin with. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 01:08, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

There is also this quote on the bottom of the page, which is a bit odd if it is supposed to be considered reliable: "Notice: The materials on this site represent the opinions of Dr. Edward Peters and do not necessarily reflect the views of others with whom he might be associated. Materials offered here are for informational and educational purposes only and are not intended as civil or canonical advice." Kevin Rutherford (talk) 01:09, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Is he a doctor of whatever topic the website is about, if so then it may be a part of his syllabus and he would need that disclaimer as part of keeping him and the college/university from being sued if someone used the advice, but he would be considered a reliable source as an expert. If he is a DDS or DVS and not a PhD then obviously he is not an expert of this topic (unless some how this topic is medically related).Camelbinky (talk) 01:32, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Another user I have talked to is concerned that the user promoting this site also might be connected to Dr. Peters, so there is that issue as well, since there are other websites out there that could be used, but instead this user is plugging this site instead. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 02:06, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Grandmothers counsel the world

Schaefer, Carol (2006). Grandmothers counsel the world: women elders offer their vision for our planet. Boston: Trumpeter/Shambhala Publications. ISBN 9781590302934.

This book is being used as a source for International Council of 13 Indigenous Grandmothers and biographies of the members (see at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/the remaining members of the council of grandmothers). I and various others who have looked parts of this book, and especially the prefatory material, do not believe that this is a reliable source, for the following reasons:

• The second half of the book is pronouncements from the council itself.
• The biographies and other materials in the first half have a promotional cast to them.
• The author is patently not neutral, and says so herself in the acknowledgements and in a "note to the Reader":

Weaving the voices of the Thirteen Grandmothers, such powerful and holy women, has been an enormous privilege and has changed forever the way I see life and how I want to be in the world. I am profoundly inspired by their passion and their dedication toward helping this planet become a sacred home for humanity and all of Creation. (from the "Acknowledgements")

It has been a great honor to work closely with the International Council of Thirteen Indigenous Grandmothers in crafting this book. [....] I have done my best to express what I have heard and learned from the Grandmothers, but my ability to act as a bridge or translator to a wider audience is, to a certain extent, hindered by the limits of my own understanding and experience. [....] Finally, though my name appears on the cover of this book, the words of wisdom expressed within it are not mine, and I do not lay claim to them. (from "A Note to the Reader")

My understanding of this is that she considers herself something of an amanuensis to the grandmothers; I cannot discern the exact nature of her relationship to them, but her attitude is adoring and lacking in anything resembling third party detachment. Therefore I do not think this can in any way be considered a reliable or really even a secondary source. Considering the continual reference to it in discussion I find myself in need of ratification or refutation of this assessment. Mangoe (talk) 17:29, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Creation Museum

There are some RfCs going on at Talk:Creation Museum, and some of the issues under discussion are the appropriateness of Wikipedia referring to it as a "museum" versus as a "tourist attraction". I would like to ask here whether or not there is reliable sourcing for calling it both a "museum" and a "tourist attraction". I think that there is, but some other editors dispute that, saying instead that only "museum" is reliably sourced, and that "tourist attraction" is not reliably sourced (in the Los Angeles Times and USA Today). I have summarized all of the sources with links to each of them at Talk:Creation Museum#tourist attraction sources (above the header for another RfC), and I would appreciate uninvolved feedback as to whether or not my analysis of sources there is correct according to WP:RS. Thanks! --Tryptofish (talk) 23:30, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

TV program uploaded to YouTube by author or copyright holder as a source

There's a pop music TV program called Pops in Seoul on Arirang World. It was uploaded to YouTube officially by Arirang. Here, on their official YouTube channel: [10]. As I understand it, the TV program is a reliable source, the fact that it is available on YouTube provides easy verifiability, and there's no copyright infringement either.

However, another aditor argued that YouTube was not a reliable source [11] and pointed me to here to ask for your opinion.

The information that needs to be added to the article is Nine Muses members' birth dates. The dates are shown on screen from 5:39 to 6:03: [12]. --Moscow Connection (talk) 19:53, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

The TV Show is a reliable source. There is an appropriate format to cite the television show. The only question is if you can include the URL to the youtube video, though as long as you are award of all the other appropriate details (broadcast date, etc.) the URL doesn't matter, so yes, you can use the TV show as a reliable source. You don't need the URL for that. Now, if you know that the copyright holder of the show is the same as the uploader on Youtube, and that in fact you are sure on the identity on YouTube, then it is okay to link to that in the URL. But you need to be sure about that. --MASEM (t) 20:12, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you very much! I'm sure cause Arirang TV links the YouTube channel from their official website: [13]. (There's a YouTube icon, select "Arirang Entertainment".) --Moscow Connection (talk) 20:25, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

FamousLogos.net

Someone off-wiki brought this to my attention yesterday: there's something odd about FamousLogos.net

Consider this page: LG Corp. It cites famouslogos.net/lg-logo as a source. But FamousLogos doesn't name their authors or describe in any way their editorial process. Are the people who write the articles trusted, reliable writers on the subject of the history of logos? Not sure. Thoughts welcome. —Tom Morris (talk) 05:48, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Dr. Kalam follower of Sathya Sai Baba?

Is this webpage a reliable source for the question whether Dr. A P J Abdul Kalam, former president of India, is a follower of the guru Sathya Sai Baba. The article contains a list of followers and Dr. Kalam is included. http://www.international.to/index.php?option=com_content&id=8211:sri-satya-sai-baba-and-dr-a-p-j-abdul-kalam&Itemid=78

The picture of Dr. Kalam and Sathya Sai Baba together is real: it is a well-known undisputed fact that Dr. Kalam has visited Sathya Sai Baba's ashram.

I am not sure whether I am allowed to post here. Because my topic ban on this subject was lifted by the arbcom on probation. Andries (talk) 17:31, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't think above website is reliable but similar text exist in other reputed media. this source say Kalam was 'fan' of Sai Baba. And after reading this and this I believe it. neo (talk) 18:27, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Was Ataturk a Freemason... Multiple sources all questioned

We could use some neutral editors at List of Freemasons (A - D) ... that article lists Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, and we have given multiple sources for the listing... However, all of them are being challenged. I would like to know if the challenges are valid:

• The first source is to a dead tree book: Jasper Ridely, The Freemasons: A History of the World's Most Powerful Secret Society, Skyhorse Publishing Inc. 2011, page 268 (this has been tagged with {{quote needed}} even though it is easy to find it on Google Snippet view) - do we really need to give a quote?
• The second is also a dead tree book: John Hamill and R.A. Gilbert, Freemasonry: A Celebration of the Craft, Page 226. Paul & Company, 1992, ISBN 0-9516355-2-2... (this has also tagged with {{quote needed}}) - Again, do we really need to give a quote? I have not found a snippet.
• The third is a Masonic website: Freemasonry in Turkey – Address given to Palestine Lodge 189 by Kaya Pasakay, Former Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Turkey which is being challenged as an unreliable self-published source. However, my contention is that you have to look beyond the website... the author, Kaya Pasaka, is considered an expert on the history of Turkish Freemasonry... and his address was originally published in Freemasonry Today - the Official journal of the United Grand Lodge of England. (it is reprinted on lodge's website by permission of both the author and the Journal.) I don't see how this could be considered an unreliable source, but I would like an assessment.

For complete discussion see Talk:List of Freemasons (A - D)#Atatürk?. Blueboar (talk) 19:46, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

If you can access the source from snippet view, why don't you just quote what you see there? The reason there is a {{quote needed}} is exactly because it is allowed to ask for quotes when a source is not readily verifiable. As for the other source, I will tell you again why it's not reliable: the real source is a self-published wordpress-style website. And in any case, the purported source is hardly an authority on either Ataturk or masonic lodges in Turkey. By the way, the title is misleading: only one source is questioned, I told you already that I accept Ridley and as a valid source, and the other book simply needs a quote. Claiming otherwise misleads other users.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 19:57, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

The Ridley book is likely to be reliable (it was first published in the UK by Constable in 1999 -- in the US I don't know). If there is doubt about what it really tells us (although when we are being really nice to one another we assume good faith) anyone who can see a snippet view -- I can't -- might as well quote the relevant text on the talk page to reassure the doubters. If that clears up the doubt, there is then no need to quote verbatim in the article itself.

Having got that far, why quote any more sources? One's enough, isn't it? Three won't make the statement truer than one. If there's a reliable source that says he wasn't a Freemason, that would be a different thing. Andrew Dalby 20:23, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I accept the reliability of Ridley's book, but the original claim goes beyond his being a freemason. It says: "Macedonia Risorta Lodge No. 80 (some claim Lodge Veritas), Thessaloniki". Is this verified by Ridley too? If not, what is, exactly?--eh bien mon prince (talk) 20:29, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Ridley simply says that he was a Freemason. And since you accept that, the issue becomes which lodge he was initiated in... Different sources say he was initiated in different lodges (some say Macedonia Risorta Lodge, some say Lodge Veritas... and I just checked The Complete Idiot's Guide to Freemasonry - which splits the difference, calling it "Macedonia Risorta e Veritas Lodge.") This is why we need multiple sources. Blueboar (talk) 22:17, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Since free masonry in particular regarding alleged or real membership of famous person is a popular fringe subject it seems justified to expect reputable sources being beyond any doubt. In that context I can understand that these sources are challenged including Jasper Ridley, since at first glance non of them seem to amount to the status of a reliable scholarly source. Though Ridley has a number of written books on historical subject, he is not a history scholar and his publisher doesn't seem to be a reputable academic publisher either. It seems to be a similar situation for the 2nd book and the website is primary source that hardly appropriate here.

An acceptable source here would be a scholarly biography of Atatürk or some reputable scholarly work on freemasonry. Moreover there should be plenty of reputable scholarly sources on Atatürk, if none of them mentions him as freemason, the claims of three given sources would appear to rather dubious fringe having no place WP.--Kmhkmh (talk) 22:35, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I do know what you mean by being wary of Fringe... but... Ridley, isn't Fringe... S. Brent Morris isn't fringe (he was the first American to be elected to run Quatuor Coronati... the Masonic equivalent of an academic journal) ... John Hamill isn't Fringe (he is the Librarian of the United Grand Lodge of England and one of Freemasonry's most respected researchers)... Kaya Pasaka isn't fringe, he is a former Grand Master of Turkey. You won't find university academics who cover this stuff, but these are all the Masonic equivalent of high end academics. They publish peer reviewed papers in Masonic journals, publish books on Freemasonry. When it comes to Masonic topics, they are some of the best there are. Blueboar (talk) 23:05, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I did not say te claim is fringe per se, but rather if it is not contained in scholarly academic research on Ataturk (there is plenty), then it might be fringe. Also using freemasons as source on freemasonry doesn't strike as the best approach either. The best source is surely external academic research. I don't really follow your claim why there would be no university academic research on freemasonry or Ataturk that can and should be quoted here. If there was really none (despite Ataturk's historical importance) that contains this info, then that would seem to me a clear red flag regarding the reliability of all those other allegedly reliable sources.--Kmhkmh (talk) 00:52, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I share Kmhkmh's concern. If only books by freemasons about freemasons can be found as references for this "fact", something is amiss. Part of the problem is that the issue is very sensitive in Turkey; you can see a mention of that in Ataturk#Outlawing insults to his memory. Ataturk was also "accused" of being a crypto-Jew and "reliable sources" attesting to that can be found as well. Somewhere there must be an independent scholarly evaluation of the evidence. Zero^talk 02:07, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Incidentally, Ridley's source is Hamill and Gilbert. Zero^talk 02:23, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Here is what Ataturk's main biographers have to say on the matter: M. Şükrü Hanioğlu, Lord Kinross and Andrew Mango all say that many leading officers from the Committee of Union and Progress were Freemasons, but make no claims about Ataturk himself. Hanioğlu also wrote "Notes on the Young Turks and the Freemasons", but I didn't read that yet, so I don't know if it even mentions Ataturk at all. Lord Kinross adds that the CUP had initiation rituals similar to those used by masonic lodges link. Mango writes in the notes to his biography that Ataturk's waiter claimed that he had told at a party in Izmir that he was initiated in a lodge in Beyoglu link. The same waiter seems to have attributed him claims about his Jewish origins link. None of them makes any mention of 'Macedonia Risorta' or 'Veritas' or anything like that. So again, at very least, this should not be presented as a fact, and all those junk sources mentioning these two lodges by name (which none of his biographers does) should be removed.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 06:21, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

That is exactly my concern, that we state something as presumably factual for which no "really" reliable and reputable source exist. Without being an expert on Ataturk or Freemasons (hence the use of the conditional in my lines above) I did a search on Google Books and JSTOR and couldn't find anything, one might classify as a reputable/scholarly source explicitly stating Kemal Atatürk to be a freemason. All I got was general statements about the freemasonry being around in Turkey and that some young turks were freemasons. The best I got were non scholarly "maybe reliable" books and all those freemason on freemasonry sources. The article on de.wp contains the same information citing 2 encyclopedias on freemasonry, however they don't appear to be scholarly work or having a reputable publisher either. Now for less complicated and less controversial subject than freemasonry and famous people being (secretly) freemasons, one might accept a variety of non scholarly sources as sufficient, but for this subject imho - no way. With the currently given sources the only thing WP could safely state as a fact is, that various freemasons claim Atatürk to have been a freemason, but nothing more than that. But even regarding such a safe line, there's still a question of fringe and whether such a line would be appropriate information/content in an article on Atatürk.--Kmhkmh (talk) 10:10, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

This is one of the inclusion criteria for the list: "figures with no verified lodge affiliation are claimed as Masons if reliable sources give anecdotal evidence suggesting they were familiar with the "secret" signs and passes...". No such anecdotal evidences have been provided, much less from reliable sources. Hence, it should be removed outright, until such evidences can be found.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 10:56, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Read the first part of the sentence again ... "Figures with no verified lodge affiliation" are accepted if there is anecdotal evidence... But in this case we don't need to rely on anecdotal evidence because we have verified affiliation. OK... the sources conflict as to the name of the lodge, but his membership in the fraternity is verified, and that is enough to include him on the list.

We have multiple sources written by highly reliable experts who verify his membership. The cited sources include some of the most respected Masonic historians and researchers in the entire world. They have access to the relevant records. This is not rumor or gossip... and we are not relying on some fringe anti-masonic website claiming membership to discredit the fraternity. Blueboar (talk) 11:21, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

[unindent] There is absolutely NO verified affiliation whatsoever. More piling evidence against your claims: Marc D. Baer gives a history of the links between CUP and freemasonry, with explicit mentions to both Macedonia Risorta and Veritas, includes a list of prominent members. No mention is made of Ataturk among the members. Was it an incredible case of forgetfulness? Could be, let's try another source: Marta Petricioli (Professor of History of International Relations at the Faculty of Political Sciences), again a list of prominent members of late-Ottoman masonic lodges is given, again Ataturk doesn't appear in the list. I have evidence from his three main biographers Hanioğlu, Kinross and Mango. I have provided university-press sources. Can you provide us better sources than 'Freemasonry Today' or 'The Complete Idiot's Guide to Freemasonry'? Do you have any scholarly sources whatsoever to back your claims?--eh bien mon prince (talk) 11:40, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

NoeHill

I would like to use this source in Bank of Lucas, Turner & Co., specifically for the image of the plaque attached to the building; however the site itself doesn't seem reliable. Is it acceptable to use this one part for this article? --TKK ^{bark !} 20:09, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

This is a fun example, since I don't think the people who wrote the rules had something like this in mind. If you intend to use the writing on the plaque only, and not what the website writes about it, the issue reduces to whether the web site is reliable for the fact that the plaque is there and looks like that. As it happens, you can check that independently, using Google Street View. Try this link to start. By stepping around a bit and zooming in, you can almost read the plaque. Certainly you can see it well enough to read the larger letters and remove any reasonable doubt that this is the plaque on the web site. Some would disagree, but in my opinion: go for it. It would be good to explicitly cite the plaque for the information you take from it (sometimes plaques are wrong). Zero^talk 10:36, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Starpulse

This is a notice, not a question. Just wanted to add it to the archives for future searchers.

A DYK nominator was looking to cite a fact using Starpulse, but the site's "review" ended up being a direct copy of the lede of a Wikipedia article. Add that to the Archive 50 Starpulse thread: the website isn't trustworthy. czar · · 04:10, 17 June 2013 (UTC)