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::The cases are not exactly the same but I think the comparison is apt since it can be interpreted as WP refuse to recognize Yusuf's new name because of Islamophobia just as not changing the title to Chelsea apparently can be interpreted as if WP refuses to recognize her gender identity. In the past the [[WP:COMMONNAME|rule]] has always been to chose the name for which someone is best known not the name a person should be addressed with today but apparently many do not understand that. Anyway, I think it might be best if the policy for how to choose BLP titles is changed so as to minimize offense in all cases. The choice of pronoun is a different matter and MOS:IDENTITY is probably a wise guideline, naturally we should mention that she is known as Chelsea now in the article thereby acknowledging her real gender. --[[User:Space simian|Space simian]] ([[User talk:Space simian|talk]]) 04:50, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
::The cases are not exactly the same but I think the comparison is apt since it can be interpreted as WP refuse to recognize Yusuf's new name because of Islamophobia just as not changing the title to Chelsea apparently can be interpreted as if WP refuses to recognize her gender identity. In the past the [[WP:COMMONNAME|rule]] has always been to chose the name for which someone is best known not the name a person should be addressed with today but apparently many do not understand that. Anyway, I think it might be best if the policy for how to choose BLP titles is changed so as to minimize offense in all cases. The choice of pronoun is a different matter and MOS:IDENTITY is probably a wise guideline, naturally we should mention that she is known as Chelsea now in the article thereby acknowledging her real gender. --[[User:Space simian|Space simian]] ([[User talk:Space simian|talk]]) 04:50, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
*'''Move back''' to Bradley, as Chelsea is not (yet) commonly recognized outside of those following the story. The vast majority of sources refer to Bradley without reference to Chelsea. In time, months I guess, there may be a preponderance of reliable sources referring to Chelsea without reference to Bradley, but until then we should resist recentism and anticipation that this name will stick and be repeated in reliable sources. A moderate point is that the material about the subject is on the past, when he was known as Bradley, and little significant material is anticipated from her future. We should wait a few months, we should wait for the change to what is commonly recognized. --[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 02:42, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
*'''Move back''' to Bradley, as Chelsea is not (yet) commonly recognized outside of those following the story. The vast majority of sources refer to Bradley without reference to Chelsea. In time, months I guess, there may be a preponderance of reliable sources referring to Chelsea without reference to Bradley, but until then we should resist recentism and anticipation that this name will stick and be repeated in reliable sources. A moderate point is that the material about the subject is on the past, when he was known as Bradley, and little significant material is anticipated from her future. We should wait a few months, we should wait for the change to what is commonly recognized. --[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 02:42, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' I apologise for the length of this comment, but this is a complex and important issue and many arguments have been raised.

:Many supporters of the proposed move have justified it on the basis that Bradley is his legal name and that he is biologically male. While I trust these arguments will be ignored by the closers as having no basis in policy, I think it is worth explaining why they are irrelevant since they continue to be raised. As others have pointed out, we go by common name not legal name and we would have to change a lot of article titles if we decided to change that (I will not enter into the dispute over whether the announcement suffices to legally change his name, though I note that our article on name changes would tend to support those who are that it does). As for the biological argument (and ignoring the confusions between biological sex and gender), again it is irrelevant. There is nothing stopping a man from changing his name to one that is usually female.

:The other irrelevant argument that has been raised is that it was moved improperly. We are holding a very large and contentious requested move discussion at the moment where all the arguments about what the title should be can be raised and considered. Since all the substantive arguments can be discussed here, it would be pointless to move it back on procedural grounds. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. If we did move it back based on procedural failings then we would inevitably have to almost immediately hold another RM discussion to deal with the substantive issue of what the article should be called. I doubt anyone wants another week of this sort of mess and argument. There are more productive (and pleasant) things we could be doing.

:That brings us to [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. I would argue that reliable sources published since Manning’s announcement are split and (as others have pointed out, sources from before the name change are hardly relevant). They are also trending in favour of Chelsea, and there is no point in moving it to Bradley if we are just going to move it back to Chelsea in a couple of weeks as usage evolves (as I said above, does anyone really want to have another week of this?). The AP and the New York Times have announced that they have decided to use Chelsea. Other people have provided more comprehensive lists of sources using Chelsea, so it is unnecessary for me to further lengthen this comment by doing so. Since reliable sources are split, we should look to other policy-based arguments.

:[[WP:IDENTITY]] is applicable here and supports using Chelsea. It states: “When there is no dispute, the term most commonly used for a person will be the one that person uses for himself or herself, and the most common terms for a group will be those that the group most commonly uses for itself. Wikipedia should use them too.” Some people have argued that this doesn’t apply because there is a dispute over whether to use Chelsea or Bradley. But I think it is clear in context that the reference to a “dispute” does not mean a dispute on Wikipedia; rather it means a dispute regarding what is subsequently referred to in the sentence – “the term ... [a] person uses for himself or herself...”

:But ultimately I believe BLP is what dictates that we must use Chelsea. There have been a lot of complaints that the BLP argument has not been adequately explained. I think this is because the argument is not easy to articulate, though nonetheless valid. Also many people seem to be dismissing it on the basis that the statement is not libellous or otherwise legally problematic. But this ignores the fact that the BLP policy is not just concerned with protecting Wikipedia from legal liability. The obligations we have placed on ourselves go beyond what would be required by the law. Underlying the BLP policy is a recognition of the respect and care we owe people when writing about them, and the harm – including distress – that can be caused when we don’t do so in a way that reflects that respect and care. The BLP policy states in the introduction that material relating to a living person “requires a high degree of sensitivity...” Using a name in the title of the article that its subject has expressly asked not be used because it does not accord with her expressed gender identity is not according that “high degree of sensitivity” required for BLPs. People have drawn analogies with other people whose preferred names are not used, but given the additional sensitivity surrounding gender identity I don't think they are persuasive. [[User:Neljack|Neljack]] ([[User talk:Neljack|talk]]) 05:12, 29 August 2013 (UTC)


===Discussion===
===Discussion===

Revision as of 05:13, 29 August 2013

Template:Stable version

Good articleChelsea Manning has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
May 11, 2012Good article nomineeListed
August 23, 2013Good article reassessmentKept
Current status: Good article

Template:BLP noticeboard

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Requested move

Chelsea Manning → Bradley Manning – I am requesting that this page be moved back to its previous title of Bradley Manning so a thorough discussion can take place.

Wikipedia:Requested moves makes it clear that the "Requesting controversial and potentially controversial moves" process should be used in the following circumstance:

"Use this process if there is any reason to believe a move would be contested."

Additionally, Wikipedia:Article titles states the following:

"Any potentially controversial proposal to change a title should be advertised at Wikipedia:Requested moves, and consensus reached before any change is made."

MOS:IDENTITY also states that a person should be referred to using his or her preferred name only when there is no dispute:

"When there is no dispute, the term most commonly used for a person will be the one that person uses for himself or herself [...]"

Note that my move request is not a comment on what the page should eventually be called (I personally believe Chelsea is the proper title), but rather a recognition of the short-term term need to follow policy.

My move request is also not a suggestion of which pronoun should be used. MOS:IDENTITY makes it clear that in this case we should use the "she" pronoun. Pronouns are a separate issue from the page title. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Administrative notes

Administrative note: Since I have no interest in the outcome of this discussion, I have volunteered to shepherd it for the duration, and serve on a three-administrator panel that will close it after seven days (or after any extension of time beyond that sought by the community). I am going to umpire, and make sure things stay civil and the discussion stays on topic. That said, please do try to keep things civil and on topic. Cheers! bd2412 T 21:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I see that someone tried to edit the bot's page to force a link to the section title. There is a deficiency in the bot's regex pattern matching, in that it doesn't find the section title when text is entered above the RM template. I'm trying to fix that, but as a stopgap, I'm moving this text below the template. – Wbm1058 (talk) 19:13, 24 August 2013 (UTC) (bot operator)[reply]

Survey

Today is 11 November 2024 (UTC); new comments belong to today's section on basis of Coordinated Universal Time (UTC). Replies are still welcome in collapsed sections.

22 August 2013 (UTC)

Extended content
  • Sorry, saved too quickly. WP:BLP means we must be immediate, and don't have the luxury of eventualism; you note in your RM that Chelsea Manning is the right place and that it will eventually end up there, but if you already know that then that's where it should be already. MOS:IDENTITY is clear: the subject's claimed identity is not a matter of controversy (third-party controversy is not the consideration there). Wikipedia:WikiProject_LGBT_studies/Guidelines interprets MOS:IDENTITY in practice as "The Wikipedia Manual of Style's guidelines on identity indicate to refer to transgender individuals according to the names and pronouns they use to identify themselves." I think this is all overwhelmingly clear - David Gerard (talk) 15:30, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I also note that the formal RM procedure mandates a 7-day discussion period, making the request doubly weird if you already think the outcome will be to keep it where it is - David Gerard (talk) 15:44, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    @David Gerard: You saying this is bordering on grating. You reverted the technical move back to Bradley Manning, which is essentially what this request is, and here you are waving the seven-day period in our faces. As you can see below, very few people think this is a BLP issue; most supporters of the current name cite MOS:IDENTITY. At what point will you acknowledge that your invocation of BLP was off-base, and restore the original title? -- tariqabjotu 16:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    MOS:IDENTITY flows directly from WP:BLP, and accordingly is, by its very nature, a BLP issue. Bearcat (talk) 03:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Obviously, it's a BLP issue in that this is a Biography of a Living Person. However, that does not explain how the title Bradley Manning is a violation of the policy. People keep throwing around those letters knowing they're a trump card, but they have continually failed to articulate what part of that policy applies here and is violated by the prior name. If it was as blatant as some, including Josh below, would like it to be (Any editor moving the article to Bradley Manning should be blocked instantly for BLP violation and sexual harrassment), we wouldn't need to have this conversation. So you're going to have to, you know, converse. -- tariqabjotu 04:32, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    BLP requires that we write our articles with sensitivity to issues of identity, and respecting a person's right to change the name that they're known by is probably the single most basic example of such that it's even possible to come up with. If a woman with a Wikipedia article under her married name wanted to go back to being known by her maiden name following her divorce, we wouldn't keep the article at her married name just because most of the old sources about her, written before she even made that announcement, had used the old name instead of the new one. When the Canadian politician Candice Hoeppner did so, for instance, we immediately complied with her wishes and moved the article to Candice Bergen (politician) (and yes, that really was her maiden name, I'm not kidding), even though you could still point to old sources which had used "Hoeppner" because that was the name she was using at the time those sources were written. I'm sure a few people might make a fuss about such a thing in some cases, but I'm also sure it wouldn't generate this volume of commentary — because most people would quickly accept that it was pretty much a no-brainer to respect her wishes. The only way this case can possibly be seen as any different from that one is if you don't accept the basic validity of transgenderism in the first place. Bearcat (talk) 04:54, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
But we're talking about BLP violations. If not moving the article in accordance with the name change immediately is a BLP violation, you should have just moved the article. Of course, that's not actually a BLP violation. -- tariqabjotu 06:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If there are BLP issues in her article, then by all means somebody should clean it up — but considering that I have so little interest in her article that I didn't even know she existed until her article was pointed to in this discussion, I'm under no obligation to personally volunteer to be the cleaner. Bearcat (talk) 06:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict × 2) (Can you, perhaps, use the preview feature a bit more? I feel like I'm shooting at a moving target.)
BLP requires that we write our articles with sensitivity to issues of identity, and respecting a person's right to change the name that they're known by is probably the single most basic example of such that it's even possible to come up with.
Please quote a part of the BLP policy that says that. We have a number of examples of people's articles not at their preferred names, living (Lily Allen, Snoop Dogg) or dead (Malcolm X). We have to be judicious about name changes, and that is no different here.
If a woman with a Wikipedia article under her married name wanted to go back to being known by her maiden name following her divorce, we wouldn't keep the article at her married name just because most of the old sources about her, written before she even made that announcement, had used the old name instead of the new one.
C'mon now. No one has ever suggested anything so silly. When the article was first moved, there were, what, ten minutes of sources since Manning announced the new name? We still have less than twenty-four hours. Almost all the sources that mention the name Chelsea Manning at this point are in the context of the gender identity change. No one is saying that we should hold fast to sources prior to today. The problem is we currently have very, very few sources since the name change talking about anything other the name change itself, and so we don't have enough information to decide that Chelsea Manning is the name the subject is most commonly called in reliable sources. -- tariqabjotu 05:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Also, the move of Candice Hoeppner, which receives forty views on a good day, received no objections, so obviously there would be no reason to move it back. However, had a couple people objected, the move should have, and probably would have, been reverted while a move discussion took place, without any accusation of BLP violation. It might have ultimately ended up at Candice Bergen (politician), but that doesn't mean that the former name constituted, or constitutes now, a BLP violation. Same here; the person who started this move request actually feels it should be at Chelsea Manning, but acknowledged that until consensus for that is attained, it should be back at Bradley Manning (of course, that technical move request isn't going to happen now, but that was the original aim of the request). -- tariqabjotu 05:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
And the fact that nobody raised an objection at all was kind of my point about her. You could have made the exact same argument about her, that she was still known as "Candice Hoeppner" in all of the existing sources, that's being made here — but the fact that nobody did make that argument, the fact that no objection was raised at all to the move, speaks volumes in and of itself. Bearcat (talk) 05:35, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what point you're trying to make. Very few people view that article, so I'm not shocked that no one objected. If the move request on that page was permitted to see a full seven days, I doubt you'd get many people even supporting. Sure, it wasn't controversial there (an article that received 1/1000th the number of views as this article the day of the name change), but so what? It's controversial here (and at Lily Allen [not moved] and Ron Artest [moved], etc.), and so the proper protocol is to maintain the original name while a move request takes place. You still have yet cite where BLP prohibits this generally accepted process (although I'd appreciate it if David did that himself... not holding my breath). -- tariqabjotu 06:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • David Gerard is correct. This is a clear case of BLP, and additionally a ton of other Wikipedia policies dictate that we use the name and pronoun she uses herself. Any editor moving the article to Bradley Manning should be blocked instantly for BLP violation and sexual harrassment of the subject. Josh Gorand (talk) 22:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

*Support, give us time to catch our breath and do this the right way. Moncrief (talk) 15:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC) Edit: I struck out my own (weakly argued) support as of 27 August, when the AP and New York Times announced they are using Chelsea, not Bradley. See, for example, [1] Moncrief (talk) 19:33, 27 August 2013 (UTC) Addition: However, I would be pleased to see the admin closer critique the way in which this change was initially handled in his/her closing comments. The move was done without consensus and too soon, in my opinion. Moncrief (talk) 14:47, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Agree There is no evidence of any legal name change or even the contemplation of any legal name change, nor do the US documents about him use the "alternative name" for which no legal documentation exists. Where the legal judgment is against "Bradley Manning" it would be confusing to readers to use a name which is not found in the sources about the criminal acts of which he was found guilty. Thus the prior title is correct, is what his own identification says, and should be gone back to. WP:BLP does not support "use the name the person wants even where there is no sign that such a name has been used by that person" else we could have "George Gnarph" say he wants his Wikipedia page to have the name "Jimbo Wales", even where he has never used that name in any legal sense. If the subject obtains any legal documentation in the alternative name, then that might fall under BLP, but the case at hand does not. Collect (talk) 15:24, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A completed legal name change is not the standard that a transgender person has to meet to have their chosen name accepted as their name. As I've noted elsewhere, you will never have access to any reliable sources can properly which confirm that her legal name change has actually taken place, because her legal records are covered by privacy laws. For any other celebrity who changes their name, we accept a public statement of their name change, and do not make acceptance or use of their new name conditional on them handing out legal records that we do not actually have any right to see — so what valid reason can there possibly be to force a transgender person to meet a higher burden of proof than Metta World Peace had to? Especially when it's a standard of proof that, due to privacy law, can never be properly met? Bearcat (talk) 07:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Bad move. Wikipedia:Article titles is the relevant policy page. Specifically, the criteria for recognizability, naturalness, and the general criteria for use common names for article titles. We do not name articles based on official names or a subjects own preferred name. Within the article, the subject may be referred to by different name, but the title ought to be Bradley Manning until another name becomes more common for the subject. --RA (✍) 15:28, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose move on WP:IAR grounds. There is plenty of context to avoid confusing readers, there are plenty of sources for Manning wanting to be called Chelsea, so I see no good reason to not respect Manning's wishes. —me_and 15:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. A person's gender identity is their choice to make. We are not at liberty to refer to them by anything else, and the reasoning on display in the comments above is incredibly short-sighted, rules-bound, sympathy-deficient, and, frankly, ignorant. — Scott • talk 15:32, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree the discussion can often turn ignorant and I appreciate you pointing out instances of such when they occur. At the same time, I believe we need to follow Wikipedia policy as best we can. Perhaps that does make us "rules-bound," but I do think policy is important. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree: I think we are all on the same page—namely, if any of us met her from now on, we'd call her Chelsea, but it seems Wikipedia rules don't make naming articles quite so straightforward. LudicrousTripe (talk) 15:46, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The move to the current title was premature. Bradley Manning is the common name used by sources at this point. If / when a majority of sources refer to him by his preferred name, we can have a discussion to move the article back here. This is not a BLP issue. wctaiwan (talk) 15:34, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I would also like to ask editors who say this is a BLP (as opposed to style) issue to justify that claim. Unless there really is a BLP issue, the old title before the undiscussed move should take precedence until consensus can be established. wctaiwan (talk) 15:45, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Should be moved back to Bradley Manning. When reputable sources refer to him as "Chelsea Manning" then it can be moved over. Deep Purple Dreams (talk) 15:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. MOS: "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns, pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification." I put forward this goes for name too. --151.230.243.44 (talk) 15:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Their name is a proper noun, not a gendered noun, pronoun, or possessive adjective.--v/r - TP 15:41, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • You live in a world where names aren't gendered? The rest of us sure don't. Bearcat (talk) 06:04, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • The MOS gives examples of gendered nouns, such as man/woman and waiter/waitress. Neither "Bradley Manning" nor "Chelsea Manning" is a gendered noun. -- tariqabjotu 06:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • A noun can be both "proper" and "gendered"; most given names, in fact, are simultaneously both of those things. While admittedly there are some names that are non-gendered, such that they can be used for both males and females, neither "Bradley" nor "Chelsea" fall within that grouping. Most given names — including both "Bradley" and "Chelsea" — are gendered nouns. Bearcat (talk) 06:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support For reasons stated above jj (talk) 15:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose "WP:BLP does not support 'use the name the person wants even where there is no sign that such a name has been used by that person' …"
    You are begging the question.

    "… else we could have 'George Gnarph' say he wants his Wikipedia page to have the name 'Jimbo Wales', even where he has never used that name in any legal sense."
    Again, I don't find this insistence on legality germane. The Wales --> Gnarph is also invalid: Manning did not ask for her article to be changed, but expressed a wish for people to call her Chelsea. We are debating whether the article is going to reflect her wish. LudicrousTripe (talk) 15:39, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Wikipedia is "The Free Encyclopedia", not a site designed to protect people's "feelings". 91.153.87.155 (talk) 15:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The argument seems to be that it's "rude" or "hurtful" or "mean" to use he to refer to Bradley. 91.153.87.155 (talk) 15:46, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose (obviously, but I might as well say it). Lots of the arguments here appear to completely ignore the word MOS:IDENTITY. Manning has requested quite unambiguously to be known as Chelsea and for female pronouns to be used. MOS:IDENTITY says we should give priority to such requests, regardless of her physical transition state. Lots of people here really misunderstand transition - social transition - which is what Chelsea is doing here at her first real opportunity to do so - is generally always necessary before SRS - indeed it was often a precondition for access to HRT. "he" on Manning violates long-established practice, policy and is frankly just *rude*, even on the talk page.) Morwen (talk) 15:43, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose moving back; support the new title and changing the pronoun to "she". Manning has issued a statement, via her lawyer on NBC's Today show, that she is a woman, has asked to be known as Chelsea, and will be seeking hormone therapy. Several reliable sources have respected this, calling her "she". The NBC presenter and Manning's lawyer called Manning "she" after the statement was made; other sources using "she" include The Guardian and Reuters.

    MOS:IDENTITY is clear on this point: "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman"), pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification." SlimVirgin (talk) 15:45, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note this request move is with regards to the page title only. Pronouns are a separate issue, and the policies on pronouns are somewhat different than those for page titles. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's no reason to make the pronoun a separate issue. Manning has said she is a woman and will be using a woman's name from now on, and her lawyer and the sources are following suit by using "she," so we may as well decide both issues in the same discussion. Otherwise we'll end up with odd writing, trying to avoid using pronouns or using "they," which has been tried before in this article and ended up looking very strange. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:00, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Pronouns are a separate issue SV, so we should not mix these two up. I'd suggest opening a separate discussion about pronouns (I think there's one above). That has nothing to do with article title however.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've always started such a discussion at the bottom of that page. jj (talk) 15:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • MOS:IDENTITY is clear on the matter of gendered pronouns; in this case, there is no reasonable separation between the change in pronouns and the change in name, as the change request was made in the same statement (and almost the same sentence). It would be incongruous at best to preserve the use of feminine pronouns but return the page to a name that is no longer in use, particularly when numerous referenced sources are starting to correctly recognise the new one. Unless anyone seriously expects Manning to recant on her decision, there's nothing controversial involved in the move.Longsight (talk) 16:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose due to MOS:IDENTITY. Psychonaut & SlimVirgin have put the opposition argument particularly eloquently above, and I agree with them. Jonathan Deamer (talk) 15:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Manning identified herself as Chelsea, and any call to "catch our breath" is irrelevant, since your deficiency in keeping up can be remedied with a redirect to the new name and you actually reading the article. ViniTheHat (talk) 15:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Per Collect. MOS:IDENTITY does not support keeping it at the current title in any way. That MOS:IDENTITY advises on gendered nouns is completely different than the person's name, let alone the WP:COMMONNAME for the subject. Arguing about the use of "he" or "she" is irrelevant to the title of the article, which is a different matter covered by different criteria. - Aoidh (talk) (formerly User:SudoGhost) 15:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose move per WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY. I think a redirect from Bradley Manning and a mention of her legal name is sufficient to avoid confusion. We should take care to respect the wishes of anyone who chooses to change the pronouns or name by which they are referred. Manning's hormone levels, biological sex, etc. are irrelevant to this discussion, and using them to argue that Manning should be referred to as "Bradley" or with male pronouns is ignorant of transgender issues. This page has been moved enough already—I think this discussion should be used to decide its final location. I don't see much point in moving the page back to Bradley Manning and then restarting this whole discussion. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 15:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)][reply]
To expand on this, from GLAAD Media Reference Guide: Transgender Glossary of Terms, "Always use a transgender person's chosen name. Often transgender people cannot afford a legal name change or are not yet old enough to change their name legally. They should be afforded the same respect for their chosen name as anyone else who lives by a name other than their birth name (e.g., celebrities)." – GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:18, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: We should absolutely respect this person's wishes, this person is now a 'she', so we should respect her wishes. We should not be calling the subject of an article by anything other than the name they wish to be known, upto and including the title of the page itself. It's not even like we're stopping readers from finding the article or disrupting their reading, they still find it through the redirect, it still contains the same information on Chelsea as it did when she was known as Bradley, it is of no real consequence what the article title really is from an operational/usability standpoint, so there's no compelling reason not to call her by the name she has chosen anyway. If it created a 404, you might, just might have a point, but otherwise it really doesn't matter, so deference to the subject and respect for their wishes must come first. Nick (talk) 15:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh, and it would be good if CaseyPenk could leave the page alone for a while, in order that those of us who want to comment can do, getting repeated edit conflicts stemming from one line argumentative prose is bloody irritating. Nick (talk) 15:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: This is still very much a developing story, and as far as I can tell the original move was done with little to no discussion. Untill there is some clarity and consistancy in the events and sources, and untill there is a more clear consensus, things should stay as they were. CombatWombat42 (talk) 15:59, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - This sort of activist stupidity is bringing WP into disrepute. WP:NOTSOAPBOX. WP:COMMONNAME. How it has gone this far the wrong direction is a little shocking. If there is transgender surgery and a legal name change, then the article should change. Carrite (talk) 16:00, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A transgender person's surgical status is irrelevant to the matter (and very often not actually verifiable in reliable sources anyway, because it's subject to the same medical privacy issues as any other surgery.) As noted elsewhere, in most cases the process requires that a person "socially" transition for a period of time before they're even allowed to "surgically" do so — so the fact that they haven't had the surgery yet is irrelevant to the question of what name is more appropriate to use. Bearcat (talk) 03:36, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Take a look at Benjamin Standards of Care; IIRC the patient must live 24/7 as their intended gender for a minimum of one full year before doctors will even consider sexual reassignment surgery. K7L (talk) 05:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Carrite, could you please post some examples of how this change is bringing Wikipedia into disrepute? All the major coverage I've seen about it so far has been uniformly positive [2] [3]. Your post implies you've seen a lot of negative commentary from established media outlets, so I'd be interested in seeing the list. —Psychonaut (talk) 07:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
WP:COMMONNAME is itself quite explicit that there are numerous considerations in which the "common name" can be overridden if there are good reasons to do so. Bearcat (talk) 03:36, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, Bradley Manning is (apparently) still his legal name, and it is as Bradley Manning that he is known in the media and to the court. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 16:01, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Oppose on the grounds that it was not an uncontroversial move and a discussion should've happened beforehand. I very rarely support bureaucratic nonsense, but the way this page was moved and then protected to enforce that move tainted any kind of support I could have had for WP:IAR here. On the whole, I'd probably support this move given a proper discussion and less angry accusations of ignorance. At this point, a return to Bradley would not be to the benefit of Wikipedia. However, the two admins involved should not get a false sense of 'right'. The "end result" was right, but their method was an abuse of power, procedure, and trust. Their subsequent nonchalance over the questions of their actions violates WP:ADMINACCT and the use of protection to force their will violates WP:INVOLVED. An Arbcom case is on the horizon and I foresee at least one of these admins losing the tools. But on this particular article, their actions are the inevitable and we lose legitimacy by returning to "Bradley" on procedural grounds alone.--v/r - TP 16:02, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I would draw everyone's attention to the last paragraph of my move request (I added it after I posted the original move request so it might have been missed): "My move request is also not a suggestion of which pronoun should be used. MOS:IDENTITY makes it clear that in this case we should use the "she" pronoun. Pronouns are a separate issue from the page title."
Again, let me emphasize that my move request covers the page title and the page title only. Pronoun considerations are not part of my move request. CaseyPenk (talk) 16:03, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You can't just quote policy without reading it. BLP and MOS:IDENTITY say nothing about immediately using a "new" name that someone has decided on for themselves. We use WP:AT to name articles, not MOS:IDENTITY.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The subject of the article is a living person, therefore it describes a person's present as well as their past. In sentences or titles that use the present tense, the present mode of gender presentation takes precedence. Since the announcement, most responsible media outlets have been using "Chelsea" and "she" consistently. This AP Stylebook-recommended usage reflects a unique concern with the wellbeing of transgender people.
    "Chelsea" is more than a stage name or a married name, because transgender people who have often struggled with gender identity for all of their lives wish (as the linked media advisory notes) to have their backgrounds described consistently, which may require retroactive changes in names and pronouns. Wikipedia is not the gender police, and it should not demand legal documents or surgeries. There is no controversy about how Manning identifies herself, since she clearly stated what her name and gender is. Shrigley (talk) 16:13, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Would those making arguments based on Manning's "legal name" please note that in her jurisdiction it is almost certainly the case that one's "legal name" is determined by usage alone. In most cases no official paperwork, procedure, or government recognition is legally required to effect the change. Manning's published proclamation therefore seems to fulfill the requirements for a legal name change in the United States. Further details are available on our articles legal name and name change. —Psychonaut (talk) 16:20, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support, but only because the controversial move should not have taken place without discussion. I don't understand why WP:BRD isn't being used here. The bold move should have been reverted, then discussion started. It should be moved back, then a proper requested move discussion to move it to Chelsea Manning should take place, even if it is pretty clear that Chelsea Manning will be the eventual name of the article. Trinitresque (talk) 16:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support, per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:NOTSOAPBOX, and also MOS:IDENTITY which says that using the subject's preferred name should only apply when there is no dispute. Walterego (talk) 19:34, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as this was premature, per my comments up above and Carrite's usual eloquence. ThemFromSpace 16:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Article was moved without consensus/RMs on three separate occasions in a very short time-span by two editors who seemingly had no interest ([4]) in consulting with the wider WP community (perhaps so that they could get the name change through before this article was locked). Thus the previous move was arbitrary and should be reversed. --Tocino, 16:15, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. WP:COMMONNAME says that when a name changes, "more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change" - we don't need to wait for new sources to outnumber the historical ones, we started from a blank slate as soon as Manning's announcement was made. Beyond opening sentences putting the name into context for readers unfamiliar with the story, I can't see that any news sources are insisting on referring to Manning as "Bradley". --McGeddon (talk) 16:15, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose move per WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY, and per GorillaWarfare and McGeddon. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Wikipedia policy about expressed identity is clear, we have multiple reputable sources, and Chelsea's preferences are extremely clear. --Mispy (talk) 16:15, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Bradley Manning still dresses as a man (wears the male military dress uniform,) and is still legally known (in name and otherwise) to the U.S. Army as Bradley - a male. Changing the name to Chelsea should not occur before hormone therapy has even begun (it it ever even will occur) or before a legal name change. I also support reverting all of the pronouns to "he." He is clearly mentally unstable and his latest remarks and desire to be called Chelsea should not be regarded with any merit until the words are matched by some serious and tangible action. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IFreedom1212 (talk • contribs)
  • I don't think referring to Chelsea as "mentally unstable" is a civil way to approach this issue. CaseyPenk (talk) 9:26 am, Today (UTC−7)
  • I interpreted his comment of "Mentally unstable" as an analysis of the situation, not as a BLP attack. Please don't be so keen to jump on him like that, and assume good faith on his behalf. Picture it this way: He has been taken into custody; what's to say that the CIA hasn't psychologically tinkered with his mind and "broken" him? There has been a long, recorded history of psychological operations conducted by the CIA and other agencies during the Cold War. See Project MKUltra for an example of what US agencies are capable of. It is not farfetched to speculate mental instability, given that trial ordeals tend to be traumatic situations for people, even for non-political cases such as convicted robbers or murderers. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 07:45, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support for now. The move should have been put to a vote in the first place, and a consensus based on WP:COMMONNAME needs to be established. Other sources may or may not reflect the change in the long term, but there's no reason to rush to pre-empt them. StuartH (talk) 16:24, 22 August 2013 (UTC). Retract, since my argument was rushing to the move rather than waiting, and in seven days it will be more clear. While it was a mistake to rush to the move (as the articles citing wikipedia itself as taking the lead on this show - not the right way around!) and admins revert warring and settling on a new title without citations or consensus isn't ideal, but that mistake can't be undone now. StuartH (talk) 00:04, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I accept that the people voting in support are doing so in good faith, and that most (if not all) recognize that this is going to become a Chelsea Manning article in the long term anyway. But Chelsea made this statement about her gender in no uncertain terms and that is to be respected under MOS:IDENTITY. Hormone therapy is incidental to that desire, and those following this know this has been a long time coming for her. I would also make a request that people in this discussion use the correct pronouns to address her – regardless as to whether you feel the move to Chelsea Manning has been a breach of policy, you must accept that this is what she is asking of you. Pez Dispens3r (talk) 16:28, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Actually my biggest problem with this whole debate is people telling me what I have to do. There is no framework for issues like this and it should be discussed and figured out, but I am not a person that likes to be told "you have to do it this way" especially when their reason is "I want it to be that way" or "It makes me feel better". Please stop implying that all gender identity issues have been worked out and that everyone agreees with you, some people are uncomfertable calling people who are genetically and physically male "her" and "she" for any number of reasons, not because we want them to feel bad, but because there are broad social and legal implications to letting someone decide for themselves as to how they are refered.CombatWombat42 (talk) 17:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Or, for more clarity, consider how we would handle it if Manning said he'd always felt that he was blue-skinned, and was thinking of getting a full-skin tattoo to match his body image. Would we mangle the article so as to imply that his skin was always blue? 168.12.253.66 (talk) 17:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - also per MOS:IDENTITY. It doesn't matter what their legal name is, we should be respectful and refer to them by their new name. We can, and currently do, mention their legal name in the article. Also, legal names, frankly, do not matter. The article on Bill Gates is not called "William Henry Gates III", nor is Lady Gaga called "Stefani Joanne Angelina Germanotta". Let's called them how they wish to be called and how people will now know them. - AJF (talk) 17:01, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- this page should be moved back to its previous title of Bradley Manning so a thorough discussion can take place. Haxwell (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:02, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – obviously, he has not yet become a "she". Further stories about the "sex change" thing are not yet made. I cannot ignore all rules, right? That would imply that we could or could NOT change or keep "Bradley" and leave this case to ourselves. In fact, we misused Bradley's words about his future as "Chelsea" by changing pronouns and the article title. And we created a cheap gossip that is no different from tabloids. And we are entering a huge crisis/dilemma, putting Wikipedia into shame. Don't tell me that MOS:IDENTITY is violated; the guideline is very vague about this case. --George Ho (talk) 17:06, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Strongly Of course this needs a proper discussion before making this major and problematic change. Atshal (talk) 17:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support—No offense intended to the transgendered, who I'm sure have a rough time of it. My reading of MOS:IDENTITY says the name in common usage. The first page of Google News shows "Bradley" 18 times, and "Chelsea" three times. Obviously this may change in the future, and at that point I would support a move back. DPRoberts534 (talk) 17:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC) Moot—My reading of MOS:IDENTITY was wrong. However, the evidence I collected still supported a name change back to Bradley, per WP:COMMONNAME, which supersedes MOS. A week later, news sources are mixed, which makes this argument moot. Wikipedia policies should have prevented the appearance of advocacy on the main page during the time that this article was linked from it. The fact that they did not means either the policies are deficient or some admin privileges need to be curtailed. I will take that up elsewhere. DPRoberts534 (talk) 03:01, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per MOS:IDENTITY and the basic principle that people are entitled to choose their own identity and name. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 17:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - legal name changes are irrelevant according to MOS:IDENTITY; even then, she's made such a change by declaring it publicly. It is not 'common sense' to use Bradley, nor should further sources be required when her gender change was made without any ambiguity. -Kairi Izumi (talk) 17:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - This is who she is. There's a reason the Identity policy is in place--transgendered people really do belong with the gender they identify themselves with. AJF makes an excellent point about the legal names, and those who say Manning is "definitely male" or whatever just don't know what they're talking about. Brettalan (talk) 17:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support - This move was incredibly premature, and seems to be done only to please the social justice warriors. Wikipedia is supposed to be a neutral source, not a forum to push your gender politics. 142.161.97.237 (talk) 17:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per MOS:IDENTITY. As I have already stated, I think it was unwise to have made the initial move without discussion, but Wikipedia's position on this seems clear enough - We identify Manning by the latest expressed self-identification. I opposed previous attempts to move the article on the basis that Manning had not at that time made any public statement asserting a wish to be identified as female. Such a statement has now been made, and so far all objections made to the change seem to ignore the intent of MOS:IDENTITY - which is to defer to the publicly-expressed wishes of the individual concerned. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Consider a compromise; qualify the person as their original sex chronologically up to the point at which they assume/come out in a new gender role. The person was a male/female up until that point as a matter of fact.```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.98.4.11 (talk • contribs)

  • Support Per CaseyPenk. When media outlets refer to Manning by his preferred name the title should change. What is taking place is a political battle over trans issues. Wikipedia is not and should not be the place to have that. While I'm sure all in opposition to the change mean well I can't realistically believe that this is not politically motivated. This is a controversial move and until a real discussion takes place I find it completely inappropriate to keep the article under "Chelsea Manning". --71.179.167.242 (talk) 17:40, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Wikipedia:Article titles#Considering title changes: "Changing one controversial title to another is strongly discouraged. If an article title has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should not be changed. ... Any potentially controversial proposal to change a title should be advertised at Wikipedia:Requested moves, and consensus reached before any change is made. ... In discussing the appropriate title of an article, remember that the choice of title is not dependent on whether a name is "right" in a moral or political sense." This policy speaks for itself (and MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline not a policy). Richard75 (talk) 17:44, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Please move back to previous (stable) title. As a note of order, the move to new title was made without proper discussion and consensus, and therefore it should be moved back simply by default (per rules), regardless to this voting. My very best wishes (talk) 18:01, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Correct. Burma would rather be called Myanmar, but we don't, since (many) reliable sources still call it Burma.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
See Lily Allen (wants to now go by Lily Rose Cooper) or Jay-Z (wants to now go by Jay Z) or Snoop Dogg (wants to now go by Snoop Lion) or Sean Combs (wants to now go by Diddy... I think). As opposed to the examples you listed, there are professional names we don't move articles to because they haven't caught on in reliable sources. So, in fact, I imagine if Manning chose Edward Manning, we'd be less likely to have this conversation, as we wouldn't have the hot-button gender identity issues floating around. It's been six hours since this announcement; we have no evidence of the name shift, at least not yet. -- tariqabjotu 18:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. It likely wouldn't be as much of a flamewar but the argument would be the same. Manning would say that she wanted to be called Edward, and we still wouldn't move the article until reliable sources started referring to her by that name. What if Manning expressed a desire to be referred to as "National Hero", would we move the article to that just because she desired that name? WP:COMMONNAME is the overriding policy here. Oren0 (talk) 19:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Oren0: I think you misunderstood me. My comment was in response to GenericBob (as the indentation shows). I provided examples of articles at titles different from the subjects' preferred names. My point is that, had there not been this contentious issue (gender identity) involved, this would have been an obvious case of moving back to the original title while attaining consensus for the new title (which, after all, is the impetus of this move request). You said nothing that I disagree with. -- tariqabjotu 22:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, I apologize for misconstruing your statement. Oren0 (talk) 22:52, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support moving back. First, this move was improperly done without consensus. Second, MOS:IDENTITY does not provide prescriptive guidance in this case regardless of repeated assertions to the contrary. It would suggest changing to the use of female pronouns, but it says nothing about names. Per WP:COMMONNAME, the page should be located at Bradley Manning until such time as her name is legally changed and/or reliable sources primarily refer to her by that name. Oren0 (talk) 18:18, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - The subject is still male in every meaningful sense. He is widely known as Bradley Manning and that is the name that he had while he had the majority of the notable experiences that this article covers. There has been no proper discussion of this move either. Count Truthstein (talk) 18:20, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support On procedural grounds, the move back is obvious. Those who have cited WP:BLP as an exception here have yet to back it up. And on merits, I'd probably support going back as well. Unfortunately, because the subject has also changed his gender identity, this has turned into a transgender rights issue. No, I don't see it that way. Manning could have kept his name and changed his gender identity. Manning also could have changed his name without changing his gender identity. Manning has decided to both change his name and his gender identity, but that doesn't mean they aren't two separate issues. Per MOS:IDENTITY, it seems we should call Manning by female pronouns, as that's her preferred gender identity. However, per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CRITERIA, the article should be titled "Bradley Manning", as that is what's more natural and recognizable. Her stated preference doesn't require an immediate article title change. We haven't dropped the hyphen in Jay-Z yet over the past month. It took three weeks to move Ron Artest to Metta World Peace. Lily Allen still hasn't moved, despite her changing her legaland professional name to Lily Rose Cooper a year ago. It's been six hours since the big announcement for Manning; there is no evidence that this name has truly caught on in the mainstream media and in common parlance, and it hasn't been legally changed. This move was hasty and shouldn't be made until usage changes. The issue of gender identity should not obfuscate that point. -- tariqabjotu 18:26, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:UCN: "Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. We do not know what terms will be used in the future, but only what is and has been in use, and is therefore familiar to our readers. However, common sense can be applied – if an organization changes its name, it is reasonable to consider the usage since the change." This is why we didn't rename Snoop Dogg's article when he changed his name willy nilly to Snoop Lion. There will have to be evidence that news sources start referring to her as Chelsea before a move discussion can take place. Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 18:49, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per tariqabjotu. Precedent and policy dictates that the article title should use the most common name used to refer to the subject, and "Bradley" is the common name in this instance. The pronouns and name used in the article content are an entirely separate issue. --Dorsal Axe 18:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - For a trans person, prononus and name is not a separate issue. In cases like this, the name change is very much part of the gender transition. Either we respect the gender identification of a subject, which includes both name and pronouns or we don't respect it at all. -- KTC (talk) 19:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. If the correct ultimate title is Chelsea, I don't see the point of moving back to Bradley just for further discussion. Discussion is already occurring, and a 7 day RM will give plenty of time to discuss the issue thoroughly. A lot of people are raising the legal name as an issue; it is entirely irrelevant to our guidelines and policies. It also makes no sense to suggest that we would wait for Manning to undergo sex reassignment surgery; you do that, if at all, after having socially transitioned in other ways, such as adopting a new name. The issue is an ostensible conflict between using the most common name and respecting the subject's gender presentation. While according to COMMONNAME we generally prefer the most common name, there are exceptions. I believe that the BLP ramifications of disrespecting a subject's expressed gender identity weigh heavily towards using the title Chelsea Manning for the article.--Trystan (talk) 19:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Move the article back to the name that's recognized. WP:COMMONNAME can be kicked around, but in a simple WP:IAR application, we shouldn't be abruptly and unrecognizably renaming an article based on a very recent revelation. Who s/he is may as well be irrelevant to an encyclopedia article, s/he performed the act that generated notability using one name, was legally charged under the same name, has been a very public discussion under that name, and so on and so forth. While the content of the article can be modified to reflect recognition of the person's choices, the title of the article should be something that someone who's not an avid newshound would actually recognize. The name of the article and the names and pronouns used in the article do not need to match if we want to recognize the person's choices. WP:NOTDIRECTORY could also be cited - the reason we have an encyclopedia article is not to better know the person, but to recognize what reliable secondary sources have said and present it in a reasonable fashion. 71.231.186.92 (talk) 19:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support - This seems like a no-brainer. WP:COMMONNAME holds sway here. This subject is still commonly known as Bradley Manning. The article title should reflect that. Moving to Chelsea at some future date might be appropriate, but certainly not now. NickCT (talk) 19:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]


  • Oppose - Back when this all started, I would've favored keeping the title Bradley Manning per WP:AT, but also changing the pronouns to she/her/herself per MOS:IDENTITY. However, now that multiple media outlets have weighed in specifically to commend Wikipedia for having moved this article to "Chelsea Manning", moving it back to "Bradley Manning" would end up being seen as some kind of political statement against trans folks. So although I wish Wikipedia had never injected itself into the wider cultural discussion about this, it has, and the best thing to do is leave the article where it is and wait for the dust to settle. RSes look to be starting to transition toward referring to Manning as Chelsea, so hopefully this will all be moot soon. In future, though, we should wait for reliable sources per WP:AT, but change pronouns immediately per WP:AT and respect for the subjects of WP:BLP who are trans. Rinne na dTrosc (talk) 20:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not exactly, although I can see why you might think that from what I wrote. My preference is for Wikipedia to avoid controversy that might harm the project. Initially, that would've meant waiting for reliable sources to start referring to Manning as Chelsea before moving the article, per WP:AT and WP:COMMONNAME. But now that this article has itself become a political football in the media, the quickest way for Wikipedia to regain the low profile that keeps it out of trouble is to just keep our heads down and leave well enough alone. I would not have favored the initial change, but now that this article is a rallying point for transgender/transsexual advocacy, I'd prefer that we just leave well enough alone. In brief: my position is that when we're in a hole, we should stop digging. The sooner Wikipedia is out of the limelight, the happier I am. This is an encyclopedia: it should be describing the world, not intervening in it. Right now, the easiest way to get out of the limelight is to leave the article where it is. Otherwise, there will be a spate of "Intolerant (mostly male) editors at Wikipedia move Manning article" pieces all over the media. Do you want that? I don't. I also have no desire to offend the many trans people for whom this issue is a pretty big deal, for obvious reasons. I would've opposed the move, but it's done now. Leave it. Rinne na dTrosc (talk) 20:45, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for the style reasons given above and because sources determine content, i.e. that Manning identifies as a woman named Chelsea, not style, i.e. how to refer to Manning given this information. Labellementeuse (talk) 20:35, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Labellementeuse - That's shenenigans. Of course sources determine content. And we can certainly include the content that Manning identifies as a woman. But sources also determine names. And the GROSS GROSS majority of sources here call this subject Bradley. NickCT (talk) 20:47, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:COMMONNAME, "If the name of a person, group, object, or other article topic changes, then more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change." There are plenty of sources (the Guardian, the Independent, apparently about half of the New York Times) referring to Manning as Chelsea (and using female pronouns although I agree that the pronoun issue is distinct from the name issue); whether this is a majority might not even be relevant, considering the policy also states "When there are several names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others." Combined with WP:BLP, "the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment", I conclude there is a significant problem with titling the page Bradley Manning because of the harm done in misgendering trans individuals. Labellementeuse (talk) 22:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A reasonable policy citation, but WP:COMMONNAME unfortunately doesn't identify what a "name change" is. I mean, is it simply enough for an individual to say "My name is changing" for it to be so. Some folks might argue there is a legal process involved...... NickCT (talk) 23:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support I know that Manning (I won't use the forename for reasons that'll become clear in a minute) wants to become a woman, and has thus changed forenames to Chelsea, but that does not mean that we should rename the article, for two reasons:

1) Manning has not yet undergone gender reassignment (he is still male, and I have read and heard somewhere that reassignment therapy isn't available in army facilities) 2) He does not wish to be known as Chelsea in everything he does - as part of the statement he issued, it clearly states:

"I also request that, starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun (except in official mail to the confinement facility)." (my emphasis). This means that Manning is still male, and until he undergoes full reassignment therapy, and agrees to be referred to as a female IN EVERYTHING he does or pertaining to him, I think the renaming of the article to "Chelsea Manning" was unnecessary. --The Historian (talk) 20:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, it does not in any way mean that "Manning is still male." Instead, it means that Manning is bowing to the unfortunate reality that the military won't deliver the mail to his preferred name.
Moreover, you are ignoring the fact that sexual reassignment surgery is the last step in a transgender transition. It is only performed after the person has begun living as the opposite sex for a lengthy period of time, has changed their name, undergone hormone therapy, etc. To demand that a person not be referred to as their gender identity until the last step in their transition process is utterly nonsensical and flies in the face of sexual identity science and common decency. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:43, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - as per WP:NAMINGCRITERIA, the first characteristic of a good Wikipedia article title is recognizability. It is obvious that, for now at least, Manning is recognized by his birth name. Wikipeterproject (talk) 20:43, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:COMMONNAME. Nothing in WP:BLP or MOS:IDENTITY requires Wikipedia to change the title of an article of a convicted criminal (or anyone else for that matter) to a less recognizable name just because they say they prefer that name. If over time reliable sources describe this person as "Chelsea" and this person becomes better known as "Chelsea" (and presumably continues to prefer and use the name Chelsea) then it will be appropriate to name the article "Chelsea Manning." Until then it is rather ridiculous. That is not to say that the lede should not note that Bradley Manning now uses the name Chelsea or even prevent using female pronouns in the article. But it is way premature to name the article anything but the name this person is by far best known as, which is Bradley Manning. Rlendog (talk) 20:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - WP:COMMONNAME makes clear the policy on sourcing titles. Unless I am wildly misinterpreting, the intention of MOS:IDENTITY is clearly with regards to usage of pronouns and descriptive nouns in the article text (see the examples). The usage of female pronouns for Manning in the article is correct (according to current guidelines), but the change to a less commonly used name for the article title is in clear violation of policy. Yourself In Person (talk) 20:59, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move. Wikipedia should follow the preponderance of reliable sources. When and if the majority of such sources begin referring to Bradley as Chelsey, we can gather consensus for another move. But for now the article should be under Bradley. Andrew327 20:59, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. WP:COMMONNAME states "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources" - Bradley Manning is now an inaccurate name, as Manning no longer identifies as Bradley; therefore, as stated, the name Bradley should be avoided even though it is still used by many media outlets. WP:COMMONNAME also states "if an organization changes its name, it is reasonable to consider the usage since the change" - although this only specifically refers to organisations, I believe the same principle should be applied to people. Furthermore, WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY mean the content of the article should use the name Chelsea and the pronoun "she"; it would be somewhat odd if the title of the article did not reflect the content. 86.16.146.123 (talk) 21:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support As a political statement against wikipedia's identity policy and the idea that a person can demand which pronoun another person uses. I think a fair statement in society is that we'll tolerate you doing what you want in terms of body modification and unusual sexual practices, and in exchange you can tolerate our freedom to use language as we please, and not try to enforce political correctness and thought crime. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.125.230.213 (talk • contribs)
  • STRONGLY SUPPORT "The military medical system does not cover gender transformation procedures. It's not medically necessary," he said. "The military will say, 'You enlisted as a male. You're a male and you're going to be incarcerated as such.'" Source (S)He is a male, was through the entire trial, and will be throughout the entire prison sentence. (S)He has been and will be a male for everything that (s)he is notable for. Fightin' Phillie 21:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support WP:COMMONNAME informs cases like Malcolm X who changed his name and "identity" late in life, and it should inform this too. Shii (tock) 21:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose move. It is common courtesy to address and to speak of someone in the manner which they reasonably request to be addressed. Manning has asked to be referred to with the female pronoun and has apparently changed her name to Chelsea Manning. It is both simple and courteous to do these things upon the individual's request and announcement of intent to transition. Any other criteria are arbitrary and not set by the individual. BFWB (talk) 21:32, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • If you think Wikipedia respects "common courtesy" in any way, shape, or form, you've obviously never participated in the discussions about images of Muhammad, etc. Shii (tock) 21:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • SUPPORT. Per WP:COMMONNAME. When all major sources refer to "Chelsea", Wikipedia should reflect this. Until then it's "Bradley". A Chelsea Manning -> Bradley Manning redirect makes sense to me, a rename/move of the Bradley Manning to Chelsea Manning article does not (yet). Encyclopediae shouldn't be front-runners. Yintan  21:45, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY. Even leaving aside common courtesy and the obvious ethical issues, calling her by an inaccurate name is against policy, regardless of how common that might be in older sources. FeydHuxtable (talk) 21:47, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • @NickCT Thanks for the reply, given there still seems a small chase of a result that might cause great distress not just to Chelsea but to many other transsexuals, Im happy to have the chance to elaborate on why policy demands we keep the current title. WP:RECENTISM does not preclude updating as the facts change. Even were this not the case, an essay carries little heft against two policies and a guideline.
WP:COMMONNAME is a high level policy, in the general case it advises us to the follow RSs, and it also suggests in some cases it's appropiate to immediately change a title based on the choice of the entity in question. For the case of a transgender person, specific guidance comes from MOS:IDENTITY , which is unambiguous in advising us to respect the subject's wishes with respect to their gender. Taken together, WP:COMMONNAME and MOS:IDENTITY leave us no choice but to use the current title. The already weak case from supporters who chose to look at WP:COMMONNAME in isolation has been further weakened by sources they cited like NYT having the decency to switch from Bradley to Chelsea. Finally, there is WP:BLP – the spirit of this policy is concerned with preventing living people from being unduly harmed by the actions of uncaring anonymous accounts. Under the weight of BLP together with WP:COMMONNAME + MOS:IDENTITY, any argument you have from the recentism essay totally collapses. FeydHuxtable (talk) 20:37, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • STRONG OPPOSE This is a matter of gender identity, not how one's reproductive organs are identified at birth. Federal agencies will in many cases refer to an individual by the name of their choosing. The article should be titled "Chelsea Manning". Dmarquard (talk) 22:03, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Hobit - re "we should call people what they want to be called" - Ummmm... Do you base that on some established policy or is that just your own idle musing? NickCT (talk) 22:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Idle musing mostly. WP:COMMONNAME would come down on the side of keeping the name Bradly. But we also should, per other MOS:IDENTITY refer to the subject as "she"--something that would, IMO, make it very jarring to read the article. In any case, Metta World Peace would be a pretty good example where we use the desired name. So we have, IMO, policies that don't work together. Going with the IAR of "do the right thing" and call people what they want to be called. As a BLP issue, I think calling someone by a name they prefer not to go by is a problem. We don't have an article on "octamom" for a reason... Hobit (talk) 22:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Hobit - Though we seem have opposing viewpoints here, I strongly agree with what you've said re "So we have, IMO, policies that don't work together". Frankly, my sentiment is that WP:COMMONNAME is the dominant policy here, because WP:MOSIDENTITY is basically a policy about style rather than firm rules about content. Anyways, though we stand opposed I respect you reasoning. NickCT (talk) 22:43, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • But this is largely an issue of style not of content, no one is suggesting we throw out all mention of the name Bradley, simply that we title the article Chelsea which when it comes down to it is largely an issue of style. I would note some MoSes (I expect most where it's an issue) suggest we should use a persons preferred romanisation of their own name where it's known, regardless of what may be more common, as far as I know, this is normally respected when it comes up (although I think there's still a lot of controversy over accents particularly for cases where the name is already romanised) when it comes to article titles, so it's not like there's no precedence for an MoS to supercede COMMONNAME. Nil Einne (talk) 14:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC) Edit: Should mention that while in some cases such romanisations issues are dealt with by naming convention guidelines which our COMMONNAME explicitly noted may very occasionally overirde COMMONNAME, there are definitely cases where the MOS deals with it as well. Nil Einne (talk) 23:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • support. WP is an encyclopedia which relies on facts, in this case on the name in manning's passport. not on wishes. Maximilian (talk) 22:07, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose. Wikipedia rules and guidelines, including MOS and BLP, explicitly require us to respect her wish to be referred to as female and use the name she prefers. It would be a blatant BLP violation to do otherwise, and well as violate MOS. These rules overrule the opinions of individual editors on this talk page too, it is not allowed to ignore BLP. Regardless of this discussion and its outcome, the article is not going to be moved anywhere because it would violate BLP which takes precedence. Josh Gorand (talk) 22:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Josh Gorand - Look..... It's pretty obvious your POV is that Manning is a she. It's also pretty obvious that's just a POV and not something there is consensus for. So do you have a valid argument, or are you just stretching policy to fit your POV. NickCT (talk) 22:43, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Josh: As things currently stand, Manning has yet to undergo any kind of therapy which would make him, by flexible definition, a "woman". As a fairly conservative person, I believe that the definition of a woman is someone with XX chromosomes and a vagina, however I do acknowledge that there are people out there with opinions that differ to mine, that Wikipedia is neutral and built upon consensus, and therefore, I am willing to give leeway to definitions of what "male" and "female" are based on Wikipedia community consensus, and what reliable sources affirm. If the community accepts a different definition of "woman", then I will not protest it. However, Manning has yet to undergo the full process towards his transition, and it is my personal opinion that using "she" and "her' throughout this article, as of present, is completely inappropriate. Regarding your statement "Referring to her as "he" is a BLP violation and gross sexual harrassment", that is merely your personal opinion, based on your own POV, just like I have my own personal POVs and opinions, and I really think you shouldn't force your POV on others like you have. It is also very confusing for Wikipedia readers who are not from Western countries, and do not share your ideas and culture. Keep in mind that Wikipedia does not have a sole readership of the United States, Western Europe, Australia and New Zealand. Many cultures, including Eastern European Slavic, Islamic, Sub-Saharan African, Central Asian, South Asian and East Asian cultures do not share the same views on gender identity. Forcing the American definition onto others may be a form of systemic bias. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 08:02, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • As mentioned above, this issue is largely offtopic but what about someone who has XY chromosomes but despite no surgery or hormone therapy has a vagina such as many women with Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome? While you didn't mention South East Asian, as someone with connections to both Southeast Asian an East Asian culture I would say that many people from such cultures are capable of understanding science and recognising that gender identity is clearly far more complex than what chromosomes you have as the problems with your personal definition demonstrates. Nil Einne (talk) 14:21, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support - This isn't even a close call. This isn't an issue of gender identity. It's about notability. Bradley Manning is notable, "Chelsea" is not. An encyclopedia shouldn't change because a person decides they want to be called something else. If Bill Clinton announced he'd much rather be known as "Billy," are we really going to change the page? JCO312 (talk) 22:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Oh come on, let's be real here. Who the hell is Chelsea Manning? What he chooses to call himself now is utterly irrelevant. He is known to the world, very well-known in fact, as Bradley Manning and per WP:COMMONNAME until he/she becomes better known as Chelsea Manning then that's the name we should use. This is an encyclopaedia. -- Necrothesp (talk) 22:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Manning's request to be identified as a woman named Chelsea is simply a request. Until such time that Manning's identity is legally shifted from Bradley to Chelsea, the article should be identified as Bradley Manning. And Adoil Descended (talk) 22:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • No, it's not a request. People decide for themselves what their names are, and which gender. Josh Gorand (talk) 22:20, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • A request has no legal standing. I can't simply "request" to be a crown prince of the Japanese imperial household and expect to be handed the position on a platter; I have to go out of my way to seduce a princess first. In Manning's case, he has to apply for a legal name change, and that name change needs to be approved by the appropriate authorities. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 08:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • There's a difference between a name, an identity, and a position. "Bradley Manning" and "Chelsea Manning" are names; "male" and "female" are identities; "Private" and "Crown Prince" are positions. You can request to be called by any name you like -- based on your innate identity -- , and it's common courtesy to comply. You don't get to have any position you like, though. DS (talk) 18:53, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support While I think there's nothing wrong with being transgender, the level of activism here that has nothing to do with Manning makes me want to vomit. Please take your struggle for recognition elsewhere.Wasmachien (talk) 22:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose It seems the main argument for moving back is that it's controversial and there needs to be a discussion first. I don't see how moving is a prerequisite for discussion. While I do think that it was improper to move it without a discussion, I don't think there's a clear reason to move it *back*. We're having the discussion now. As mentioned elsewhere, "legal name change" is irrelevant. WP:COMMONNAME states that for changed names, sources after the name change should be given weight. The name change basically just happened. We'll see in a few days whether news sources follow suit with the new name, which I guess they will, WP:BALL notwithstanding. PenguiN42 (talk) 22:30, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support A person's name and a person's gender are two separate questions. It does not matter whether or not Manning is transgender or whether or not Manning has had sex reassignment sugery. Those are entirely separate questions from the question of Manning's name. The name a person chooses to use, their legal name, and their "common name" can be three different things. For Wikipedia's article naming purposes, it is only the "common name" that counts, not the self-chosen name nor the legal name. As such, for Manning her "common name" is still "Bradley Manning". That might change in the future, but today, it is still "Bradley". WP:COMMONNAME is clear. Her article should be called "Bradley Manning". 99.192.64.222 (talk) 22:44, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Bearcat, GorillaWarfare and SV put it well: a clear public statement + RS shift. It would have been smoother to make the change in a few steps, while adding sources and addressing in the article the suddenness of the shift in the mainstream media. But there's nothing to be gained now by moving back. – SJ +
    A more thorough discussion - for the benefit of this and similar cases in the future - should address the RS, timing, legal name and other style guide issues cleanly in one place. We could use a guideline specifically on how & how quickly a biography article should change its name, and what level of sourcing to require, during a public identity change: for different sorts of changes. I think at some point (before enough sources have transitioned) you'd want both names bolded in the first sentence, with explanation in the lede; later shifting to both names bolded in the other order w/ a title shift; even later going back through "What links here" and updating some of the inbound links, depending on context. The question for me is when we cross those lines. For an identity change w/ gender change, it makes sense to change the name at the same time as you change the pronouns - the alternative is simply confusing. I can't think of a case where we made these changes at different times. – SJ + 22:54, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. First, an initial matter, the appeal to WP:BLP as a reason to keep the article at Chelsea Manning (and to immediately undo any reversion to Bradley Manning is baseless. The BLP policy has nothing to do with the use of Bradley in the article title. The BLP policy is about protecting Wikipedia from defamation suits. It's about reliability. It is clear that subject of the article has commonly (and legally been known as Bradley Manning). This article name change dispute isn't affected by the BLP policy at all. There's no basis for applying it. Imagine if hypothetically, Manning had always been known as Chelsea Manning, and had never been referred to as Bradley Manning. Then imagine someone change the name to Bradley Manning based on original research or an unreliable gossip site claiming Manning had been known as Bradley. Then, WP:BLP might conceivably have something to do with it, as there wouldn't be any reliable sourcing that the subject had been commonly known as Bradley. That's not even remotely relevant to this situation. The WP:MOSIDENTITY very clearly puts titles and and gendered nouns under different rules. The existing policy very clearly states that Manning should be referred to by her latest expressed gender for pronouns, possessive, etc. (thus female in this case). It clearly sets titles by another standard, including policies for article titles. Manning is commonly known as Bradley Manning. Her expressed preference for Chelsea just happened. Until such a point that Chelsea becomes the common name for the bio subject, the title should be Bradley Manning. --JamesAM (talk) 22:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Inclined to agree that the initial move might have been a little premature. For someone who has been referred to as "Bradley Manning" by all and sundry for three years now, it seems unlikely to me that "Chelsea Manning" would be how they are now best known after only one day. A Thousand Doors (talk | contribs) 22:59, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. This was a straightforward application of policy. Sources in the media are going both ways, but there's plenty of "Chelsea Manning" sources out there. In the end, existing policy supports the change. The redirect means there is no practical confusion to be had - anybody looking for Bradley Manning will end up here. The case against following existing policy on trans people is specious at best. Phil Sandifer (talk) 23:20, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Until the name is legally changed by the courts, the legal name is the one on the birth certificate. 5minutes (talk) 23:28, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This page was moved prematurely without any discussion whatsoever. Bradley Manning may wish to be called Chelsea, but before he wanted to be called Breanna. What if he wants to change his name again? Katana Geldar (talk) 23:35, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Keep in mind that we've known Manning to be a transperson for a long time. However, when Manning named herself as "Brianna (Breanna?) Manning" we didn't change the article name, so why should we do so now?

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.178.34.11 (talk • contribs) 23:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

23 August 2013 (UTC)

Extended content
Just a note, people are using Support to both support keeping this article titled Chelsea Manning and others to support reverting it back to Bradley. You can't take a straight vote without reading the remarks accompanying them.Liz Read! Talk! 20:51, 23 August 2013 (UTC) [reply]
  • Fervenlty Support the move to THE real name "Bradley Manning" adhering to the Wikipedia rules. I mean, seriously? Really? AYFKM?! Ukrained2012 (talk) 17:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support not only under NPOV, but further I think the politicization and ridiculous PC attitude on this website do a disservice to people hoping to get factual information. The fact is, this is a guy, legally and biologically, who has a male name legally. He is a woman only in his own head, and the collective imagination of the radical left. Whether you agree or not, this is not something that is widely accepted, even in the left-leaning media, and Wikipedia is a place for neutrality, not Righting Great Wrongs. Further, the 'musician' example that everyone brings up - 'Calvin Broadus' redirects to 'Snoop Dogg' despite the fact that he changed his performing name to Snoop Lion years ago, because the bulk of his mainstream success was as Snoop Dogg. Bradley Manning leaked documents to Wikileaks, not Chelsea Manning. Bradley Manning was tried in a military court, not Chelsea Manning, and without the leak and the trial, there would be no Notability. Clinton (talk)
  • Support. NPOV: Manning's name hasn't officially changed, nor has his gender. The article title should change when he legally does so. This article is a joke. -- Randy2063 (talk) 01:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Invalid rationale as explained on this page a few hundred times now. Her gender has changed because she says so. Josh Gorand (talk) 01:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yeah, that'd hold up in court. "Your honor, I couldn't have raped that woman, because you see, I'm a woman." "But I can see the outline of your penis through your pants!" "OBJECTION! He said he's a woman, that makes him a woman!" Well guess what? I said I'm a millionaire, but I'm checking my bank account right now and still only seeing about 30k. "His gender has changed because he said so." What is he, a whistleblower or a psychic? Clinton (talk)
  • Support. I have no problem with noting that Bradley Manning would prefer to be known as "Chelsea Manning." But the name under which Manning gained notoriety is Bradley. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dyrnych (talk • contribs) 02:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Per MOS:IDENTITY, and per the arguments above of Morwen and SlimVirgin. Manning's clearly stated gender identity trumps some Wikipedia editors simplistic arguments about the name and gender stated on Manning's legal documents, and their lame appeals to chromosomes or genitalia as incontrovertible indices of gender. Manning is a pre-op transsexual and per WP:BLP should be treated as such. As of this moment, Google news has53,000 results for "Chelsea Manning," such as MSNBC saying "Bradley Manning is now Chelsea Manning"so we do not have to strain to find reliable secondary sources. We will be following the mainstream media by using the female name and pronouns. Edison (talk) 03:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's weird, I clicked on that link and it only turns up 26,300. Shouldn't the number be increasing? Ileanadu (talk) 15:52, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, I say all of his statements after incarceration be considered statements under extreme duress and not be used as a basis to change his page. You can just have a section on the Chelsea stuff under his original name... User:Jburman, (talk) 04:53, 23 August 2013
  • Support. There are several other articles on real people using names they did not like or use for themselves. For example, Pretty Boy Floyd, which doesn't even have the excuse of being Charles Arthur Floyd's legal name at any time in his life; and Chad Johnson (wide receiver) who had his name changed legally to Chad Ochocinco. The mission of Wikipedia to provide information would seem to dictate that the articles be titled (and referenced on the Main Page, in this case) with the person's commonly-known name. Miraculouschaos (talk) 00:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support If I had a Wikipedia article and then I suddenly claimed to be a dog, or a cat, would they change it to reflect such a non-sense? Biologically he is a man and will die a man (check his chromosomes XY), and legally he is a man (he even asks to be called by his male name in official stuff). It is stupid to change the wikipedia article... this deserves, at most, a brief section. Wikipedia is about FACTS not gay-lobby propaganda. Daniel32708 (talk) 23:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Manning is a living person who has said that her preferred name is Chelsea. Manning is notable under the name 'Bradley', but Chaz Bono was notible under the name 'Chastity' as well, so I don't see how that argument holds. The use of a redirect means that no one is going to miss the article using her former name, so the wish to change the name back comes less from a place of editor concern and more from a place of personal ideology.Nicholas Perkins (T•C) 00:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I don't think Chaz Bono goes as far as supporting the issue of titling the Manning article. The key issue would be when was the title changed to Chaz Bono? If it was changed to that only after he had been known for a while with that name, then it would indicate changing the title of this article is premature. On the other hand, if the title of the article was changed in 2009 as soon as Chaz, or his publicist, made a clear statement of preference then it would support your point. At that time, Chaz was in the process of a gender transition. In May of 2010 he legally changed his name. Does anyone know? My guess is that it didn't change until sometime after when Bono had become known as Chaz. Bono even made a documentary. Ileanadu (talk) 20:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Wikipedia is not a soap-box for trans people to play with, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that should value quality over political correctness ten times out of ten. Coming into the page and seeing "her" and "she" all over the place while the picture is of a young soldier is laughable, and unthinkable in a Wikipedia just a short year ago. Josepharari (talk) 00:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. "I am a girl, call me Chelsea" is the worst move rational I've heard in a while. This page is currently laughable and embarrassing. I think some people need to settle down. Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 00:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict) Oppose WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY make it clear that the most reliable source for a person's name is that person. Manning has made a clear statement that they wish to be known as "Chelsea Manning", and this statement is verifiable in multiple reliable sources. It is thus factual that the subject of this article is named "Chelsea Manning". As the titles of article should match the name of their subject and there are no technical restrictions or disambiguation issues, the correct title of this article is Chelsea Manning. Someone asked whether we would respect a name change to "Barrak Obama", and the answer is we would and the article would be renamed to "Barrak Obama (soldier)" or some other suitably disambiguated title. Thryduulf (talk) 00:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support While Manning's legal name remains "Bradley", Chelsea should only be treated as a nickname. I would be okay with with a title reading: Bradley "Chelsea" Manning, or something of that nature though. Mpgviolist (talk) 00:35, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose move. Chelsea has mad a clear and articulate statement as to what her gender identity is and why she chose to wait until after the first trial's judgement to make that statement public - as to not distract from the immensely reported-on trial. Clearly this is not anew issue and she has made a plan for starting her transitioning as soon as the military will conform to how the rest of US population already operates. Her gender identity is not a vote, it is her decision. As long as we also denote her former name there is no valid reason to counter her wishes except those who don't want to follow the guidelines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sportfan5000 (talk • contribs)
  • Oppose in the strongest terms as a matter of libel, which overrides every Wikipedia policy. The subject has clearly stated her intentions to transition and the name she intends to go by, and anyone remotely familiar with trans issues will know that it is unacceptable and much more than an issue of pseudonyms or nicknames to refer to someone by their pre-transition name or with the wrong pronouns. The "born as Bradley Manning" qualifier at the top of the article and quotations bearing that name are acceptable as they are pertinent to notable events, but routinely misgendering the subject throughout the article against their explicit wishes is not. Haipa Doragon (talk) 01:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Libel? Seriously? Which fact is being misstated by titling the article Bradley Manning? Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:20, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • The fact that it is no longer her chosen name. Using such a name (and pronouns) in a manner that misrepresents the subject as she currently is could be perceived as an attempt to slander the subject. Haipa Doragon (talk) 01:36, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Which is not libel. "Libel" is an important word in Wikipedia policies, so I'd suggest you use it with more care. Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:59, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • As I said, policies are irrelevant in the face of the law. Libel is neither clear-cut nor defined by Wikipedia, and therefore Wikipedia editors are legally obliged to avoid publishing material that could be so. Given what numerous sources state, it is her explicit wish to be referred to as Chelsea and with she/her pronouns and it would be tempting fate to do so otherwise. Haipa Doragon (talk) 02:20, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, it is libel, gross sexual harrassment, a BLP violation, a violation of MOS:IDENTITY, a violation of human decency, and obvously motivated by transphobic hate, to refer to someone who self-identifies as a woman, by insisting on using their former name with which they no longer identifies. And her gender identity issues have been known for years. Josh Gorand (talk) 01:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • I don't mean to be offensive here, but are you joking? It's hard to tell. Either way, there is no way that this would be libel. Deep Purple Dreams (talk) 03:18, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • Uh, no... it would be a blatant BLP violation at least, and that carries with it inherent legal complications. Even if it doesn't violate the law, which I doubt anyone here knows for sure, using the wrong name and pronouns would violate the BLP policy, which is held above practically everything else on this site. Haipa Doragon (talk) 03:31, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Come on. There are numerous reasonable alternative motivations beyond "transphobic hate" for referring to Bradley Manning (pre-Chelsea-announcement) as Bradley Manning. Here's one: clarity. The discussion on this page is whether it's appropriate to sacrifice clarity to comply with a person's personal desire--not a person's gender identity, but a person's preferred name. There is nothing sacred about a person's preferred name, and treating it like some kind of intrinsic aspect of that person's character is absurd. Dyrnych (talk) 03:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • Their name matters when it carries an implication of gender, which is absolutely intrinsic here, extremely sensitive with regards to libel law and BLP policy, and, given that, paramount to any desire for "clarity". Haipa Doragon (talk) 03:35, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
            • Libel requires falsity. There is nothing false in saying that a person legally named Bradley Manning wishes to be known as Chelsea Manning. Nor is there falsity in stating that that person was legally named Bradley Manning at the time of all pertinent events. Do you have any evidence beyond hand-waving that libel would attach to such claims? Also, would your argument apply if Manning's name had formerly been Pat and she now wished to be known as Jess? Would it be OK to refer to Manning--historically--as Pat? Dyrnych (talk) 03:50, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
              • It is not false to simply state what someone's legal name is, but to use it in a manner that misrepresents their identity or gender, which would certainly be the case here, is and would defame that individual. The title and contents of an article should represent its subject and its subject is no longer, according to sources, a male by the name of Bradley Manning. Haipa Doragon (talk) 05:12, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
                • As others have said, you really need to look up libel before you make ludicrous statements. It is certainly not libel to report someone's legal name. Throwing around legal terminology you clearly don't understand because you think it makes your case look stronger is very ill-advised. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
                • I'm very glad that the standard you've articulated is not the standard for defamation, because it would be entirely unworkable and, frankly, absurd. Would it be libelous to give a male-identified male child a name that's traditionally female and then refer to him by that name? Because, even though that's his legal name, that would arguably misrepresent his identity and gender. But the overall point is that according the significance that you do to Manning's fundamentally whimsical decision to change her name to Chelsea creates an unworkable model for Wikipedia, because it would be incumbent on Wikipedia editors to immediately reword entire articles every time someone decides to go by another name, regardless of the name under which they gained notoriety. That would lead to confusion for readers, misrepresentation of past factual matters, and (in your view) the potential for legal liability if the article isn't changed quickly enough. Note that I'm not calling Manning's gender identity whimsical. Dyrnych (talk) 14:31, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Libel is a very strong term, especially considering that the name has not legally been changed - and ultimately it's not very accurate. It may not be polite, but it's not libel to refer to someone as their given name or even as their birth name, regardless of whether they are trans or not. 5minutes (talk) 12:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As a lawyer and former law professor, Agreed. The laws of libel do not apply here. There is no legal risk to Wikipedia in using either name.
  • Strong oppose Per MOS:IDENTITY. Manning has clearly identified her gender in a highly public venue, and should be referred to accordingly. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 01:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Bradley Manning is his name and unless changed, that should be the title of the article especially in consideration that his notoriety occurred under that name. Talmage (talk) 01:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, keep article name Chelsea Manning This is a transgender rights issue. Right to self identify is a major demand of the transgender rights movement and the process of getting government recognition of a name change is a discriminatory barrier of great offense to many people who support the movement. Manning has said in the clearest terms to the media that she wishes to be referred to with feminine pronouns and to be called Chelsea. This is sufficient. The use of this person's former name is contrary to this person's rights. Blue Rasberry (talk) 01:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Meh, Move back for now. The move was premature and should wait until they officially get their name changed. ~Adjwilley (talk) 01:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support a restoration to his actual name, which is "Bradley Manning", per "recognizability, naturalness, and the general criteria for use common names for article titles" of the article title policy. Really, this is just LGBT politics run amok. Tarc (talk) 02:04, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support and early close Is this some kind of a joke? His legal name is Bradley Manning and until this is reversed should stay that way per WP:COMMONNAME. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. It seems to me that the spirit of WP:BLP trumps the other arguments. This isn't the same thing as when someone wants a different name for commercial reasons, and as for COMMONNAME, the new name is going to become widely recognized extremely soon. It doesn't matter whether there has been surgery or a legal name change yet. It matters what the subject wants herself to be called. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:23, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The move to Chelsea is premature, he/she is best known as Bradley Manning and that is currently his/her official name. Space simian (talk) 02:23, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Although I predict this move will confuse readers looking for information about Manning in the months to follow I think it would be unfortunate if we accidentaly set a precedent for a certain title at this moment in time. Considering Mannings recent statement and that the most commonly used name by reliable sources might change in the near future I don't see much point in moving the page back to Bradley in five days from now, therefore I retract my support.
    Instead I would like to add a protest over how this move has been handled. Normal procedure would have been to revert to the previously used (not controversial) name and then discuss the controversial move to Chelsea (see bold-revert-discuss). The way this has been handled is yet another example of Wikipedia admins abusing power and bullying in order to push their personal point of view. Space simian (talk) 05:41, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Oposse. After further consideration I think the original move wasn't premature, the rationale behind MOS:IDENTITY should take precedence over WP:COMMONNAME in situations like this. Besides, it seems like WP:RS is beginning to use Chelsea Manning so the WP:COMMONNAME argument is no longer relevant. —Space simian (talk) 01:25, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support If Pvc Manning wishes to be known as Cheslea, then the article should note that. Maybe also, the article should note that Pvc Manning wishes to be know as a female and always use the female pronouns in the article itself. But the article title should be "Bradley Manning" (with a Chelsea Manning redirect) until Pvc Manning legal changes names. This was what occured with Chad Johnson (Ochocinco) and should apply here as well. Solarguy17 (talk) 02:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - WP:MOS is clear on this issue and the reasoning behind that policy is sound. The argument that "the facts" are that Manning is a "man" are absurd. There is no such thing as someone having an "objectively factual gender"; the concept of gender (as opposed to biological sex) is completely subjective, varying among individuals in a culture, among different cultures, and among different time periods. Just like with everyone else, Manning's own subjective conclusions determine her gender. And the fact that some Wikipedians feel entitled to "vote" against her decision is disgusting and shameful. Seriously? Do you have nothing more constructive to do than to discuss how you think someone else should be labelled despite that person's objections? This entire discussion is WP:SYSTEMICBIAS at its finest. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 02:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly Oppose - MOS:IDENTITY is not a novel invention and it is already specific enough for there not to be ambiguity in regards to what to do in this case. I don't understand the argument that users would have difficulty finding the article, as long as there is a redirect it would be enough to prevent that issue. Legal arguments are not relevant, wikipedia is not the United States system of law. Biological arguments contradict MOS:IDENTITY Vexorian (talk) 02:48, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, but I am willing to reconsider as more information comes in - The move was premature and should have been implemented only after clear consensus in this controversial issue. It also would be nice to wait until we see how the majority of reliable, secondary sources handle the issue. At this time, "Bradley Manning" is the more recognizable name, and readers are more likely to search for this name -- see WP:NAMINGCRITERIA. Edge3 (talk) 03:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm so confused. Don't we follow reliable sources? Support. Red Slash 03:46, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move per WP:COMMONNAME. I think WP:NOTNEWS has a role to play here too. There should not have been a rush in changing the title. Over time, the most common name in the sources may change to the female name, but it clearly has not changed as of this time. Further, as discussed above, MOS:IDENTITY is not about article titles, and I don't there is a BLP issue. BLP is about facts, and this person is currently known by two different names, and the article reports both of them. Neutron (talk) 04:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The purpose of WP:NOTNEWS is to exclude articles where the entire article topic is some briefly-notable event that's news today, forgotten tomorrow. It's not a call to keep clearly outdated information as if it were current nor to omit reliably-sourced info on a subject which already met the criteria for an article. K7L (talk) 05:53, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, the purpose of WP:NOT#NEWS is varied, and includes events with no lasting coverage etc but is not limited to that. WP:ISNOT covers all information on wikipedia, IRWolfie- (talk) 15:09, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In every single one of those articles, she is referred to as "she" and "Chelsea." Phrases are used such as "formerly known as Bradley," "now known as Chelsea," "now Chelsea Manning," and "formerly known as Bradley Manning." The New York Times public editor closes with this sentence: "But given Ms. Manning’s preference, it may be best to quickly change to the feminine and to explain that — rather than the other way around." I'd say they're good examples :-) Sue Gardner (talk) 05:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose to moving back to Bradley. It feels weird to comment right after Sue (who made some of my thoughts redundant), but I'll add this: news articles and headlines have to start by identifying the subject. The world knows Chelsea right now as Bradley, so the headlines of reliable sources would logically refer to her as Bradley for coverage of the name change. Wikipedia is not bound by the same rules, as someone is proactively searching for Manning (and will find her via searches for either name). Her statement was made in a reputable location, and is well-grounded in context. In this instance, the policies on pronouns should also apply to the article title. --\/\/slack (talk) 04:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose strongly moving back (that is, we should keep it at Chelsea Manning). There's a lot of editors I've had disagreements with in the past who are making very strong arguments for this, but I think Sue Gardner's comment right above just sums it all up better than I could. (And we do have redirects, these days.) Abeg92contribs 04:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support While it's fine to note that Manning now identifies as female, per WP:COMMONNAME it should obviously be at "Bradley Manning". Muhammad Ali's page is not at "The Greatest of All Time". Idi Amin's page is not at "The Last King of Scotland". Joefromrandb (talk) 04:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Sue Gardner, SJ, GorillaWarfare and others. The place where the most careful consideration of the question of "How does an encyclopedia handle it when an article subject comes out as trans?" has been the development of the MOS:IDENTITY guideline. In my opinion, editors arguing such things as "policy trumps guidelines" and "MOS:IDENTITY only covers pronouns not article titles" are arguing the letter rather than the spirit of the most relevant and thoughtful guideline (with regard to respecting BLP issues) that we have about this dilemma. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 04:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I feel that WP:POVNAME and WP:TITLECHANGES also apply and are policies under Wikipedia:Article titles, there was No consensus to move this page to Chelsea Manning in the first place, what happened as a result? A stable good article was ruined from it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:52, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Past precedent and WP:BLP is quite clear on this. We go by gender identity name. It's as simple as that. SilverserenC 05:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose due to MOS:IDENTITY. K7L (talk) 05:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support moving back to Bradley Manning for many of the reasons cited above; not only is it the common name and there are no independent sources citing "Chelsea" in a context other than the recent change, but I find WP:COMMONNAME to be most appropriate and most compelling at this time. Additionally, I find the move to Chelsea was without the necessary consensus and should be reverted unless and until the necessary consensus develops. JasonCNJ (talk) 06:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't know I am completely unsure about this. We need more time to see how things pan out. One thing I would say. The Chelsea article is being edited at he moment. Should it become Bradley again, the Chelsea article should be editted rather to change the "her" to "his" and of course "Chelsea" to "Bradley". There should not be a switch back to the original Bradley article, as all subsequent edits would be lost. I am inclinded to think the article will remain under "Chelsea", as people get used to the concept. People are a bit afraid of transgender, although the actions of Bradley/Chelsea show that they do great things. If Bradley is known as Chelsea in future, which seems will be the case, then an article called Bradley Manning will be confusing to say the least. Wallie (talk) 06:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The discussion can happen on a page named as per Chelsea's wishes (which are the ones we use in the article as per MOS:IDENTITY), and redirects will keep everything sane until the situation stabilizes. I think it's important for Wikipedia to use the name currently in use in the media and as chosen by Chelsea herself, a living person. Unless there are good reasons not to, such as evidence of coercion or if the majority switches back to using her previous name, the new page title can be discussed within the article itself or here, not at Wikipedia:Requested moves. -- Gaurav (talk) 06:53, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: There was insufficient consensus for the previous move, and there was not enough opportunity for opponents to voice their objections. As of present Manning has yet to even make the first surgical/therapeutic step towards transwomanhood or whatever the new, fancy term people use nowadays. He has not requested an official name change, and his legal name remains to be Bradley. Until the proper changes have been made, this article should reflect the de jure AND de facto realities. Furthermore, per WP:COMMONNAME we use the name most commonly used in English-language reliable sources - most RSes have yet to make the change, and still use the name Bradley. Wikipedia should not be the "first" or a "trendsetter", as that would be in contrary with the purpose of Wikipedia, which only should describe things that are proven by existing sources. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 07:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support 1) Gender change currently is just a wish and not official. 2) Gender change is not carried out physically. 3) MOS:IDENTITY is well meant but certainly a stumbling block in this case: “…a person's latest expressed gender self-identification.” It should not trump the facts and be understood as the guideline it is and not as a hard rule. Alandeus (talk) 07:56, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Slate, a "left" leaning publication is applauding the speed at which Wikipedia moved to Chelsea Manning. A writer for the National Review, a "right" leaning publication, does not approve, quoting someone complaining that the "mainstream media" lagged Wikipedia in order to criticize the quote and declare "We need structure here and a proper legal process." Wikipedia should not end up lined up with the "left" media like this. But having said that, I say "Oppose" because to those who support a move back to Bradley Manning I have to advise you that we lost this battle long ago. The prompt renaming of this article to Chelsea is the natural outcome of years of Wikipedia's political evolution, and you are not going to roll that back overnight. I also don't think it SHOULD be rolled back overnight, hence my "Oppose." Look, while we should not be advancing the LGBT agenda or any other agenda in the media, the fact is that the development of the WP:BLP policy brought the desires of Wikipedia's article subjects into relevance. The sovereignty of the individual to determine how he or she is perceived is still not total on Wikipedia, but it is pretty close to total when it comes to the identification of trans people. There is a strong lean among Wikipedia's editors towards opposing attempts to channel individual sexuality or sexual identity into collectively mediated "norms." With all due respect to transgendered persons, what's happened here is going to be perceived by non-Wikipedians as the "trans lobby" having unchecked control over Wikipedia. I understand that according to the 2011 National Transgender Discrimination Survey only 21% of trans people have updated all of their legal documents, but there is a cost to Wikipedia to actively righting this wrong as opposed to remaining passive and just drifting with the flow of reliable sources. Those of us who have WP:NPOV concerns lost our ability to keep Wikipedia out of the news long before last year's blackout in support of a political campaign against legislation before Congress. In the name of transparency I suggest letting this go through so the public understands the state of Wikipedia 2013. A flip back to Bradley Manning would amount to a revolution against Wikipedia 2013 and those of us who are "conservatives" should look for less radical options like pushing back more against the policies, guidelines, and Wikimedia Foundation statements that have have evolved to collectively make inevitable Wikipedia's pioneering in terms of the speed and degree to which it rewrites articles about Manning from top to bottom in the feminine pronoun.--Brian Dell (talk) 08:03, 23 August 2013 (UTC) P.S. I've already proposed that use of the subject's latest expressed gender self-identification be limited to occasions where there is a reasonable expectation that the subjective self-identification will be objectively verified by means of acceptance by the legal system and adoption by most reliable sources.--Brian Dell (talk) 09:29, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. If we defer to organizational name changes, then so should we for personal name changes too. And even per WP:COMMONNAME, we should give greater weight to reliable sources published after Pfc. Manning's name change, which in this news cycle, are all focusing on Manning's name change to Chelsea. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 08:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. MOS:IDENTITY addresses the gender pronoun, so referring to him as "she" in the article seems appropriate due to that. The name, however, is only if no dispute is associated and there is definitely dispute so his legal name of Bradley Manning should be used in the article and as the title. A redirect from Chelsea and a note about it in the article would be sensible, but even so we don't know what name he will feel like using the next time he talks to somebody. He's already given more than one female name. --Sam Bingner \ talk / 08:12, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support returning to the most common name I do not see how this is different from Cat Stevens. Both are notable under their former names not the presently chosen names. Regarding WP:BLP. It is policy that require us to minimize damage to a living person by hiding damaging or doubtful information. What information we are trying to hide by renaming article to Chelsea? That she was ever known as Bradely? The only way to hide is to completely delete article because everything this person is notable was done under name of Bradeley. Alex Bakharev (talk) 08:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose MOS:IDENTITY is clear on this and tates that "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman"), pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. The pronoun should also be a she because of it. I dont have any personal feelings on this but we should abide by policy and i recently asked a similar question to Jimbo Wales, the founder of this website. Hee said that self-affiliation is paramount. Therefore the title should remain. Also, this is a WP:BLP issue because your calling a trans person by the pre-trans name. You might as well cal Muhamad Ali Cassius Clay. I also believe that WP:NPOV is applicablew here. All the centrist or moderate newspapers i can think of off the top of my head use Chelsea and she as a pronoun i.e. Washington Post, US. , The Telegraph, UK. , Daily Mail, UK.. Business newspapers can also be relied upon sine they usually don't have socially conservative biases nor sociallly liberal biases so International Business Times, US. uses Chelsea and feminine pronouns as well. Pass a Method talk 08:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Pass a Method: Or Yusuf Islam Cat Stevens? Or Lily Rose Cooper Lily Allen? The interpretation of BLP in this manner runs counter to consensus on Wikipedia. -- tariqabjotu 23:59, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:Commonname. The move was very premature and without consensus. All kind of media outlets are obviously in a process of discussing how to refer to Manning in the future. Wikipedia is WP:Notnews and should not lead in a name change, but wait and see what reliable sources choose. There is some summary of the discussion here (with regard to gender pronoum). New York Times is for the time being sticking with Bradley/“he” for the following reason: “Generally speaking we call people by their new name when they ask us to, and when they actually begin their new lives. In this case we made the judgment readers would be totally confused if we turned on a dime overnight and changed the name and gender of a person in the middle of a major running news story. That’s not a political decision. It is one aimed at our primary constituency — our readers.” Regards, Iselilja (talk) 08:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support, official name is official until it has been changed. --Stryn (talk) 08:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support Per WP:COMMONNAME, articles should be titled by the most common name. Even a cursory search of reliable sources demonstrates that the most common name in English for this article's topic is Bradley Manning. This is a no brainer. It clearly needs to be changed back. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 09:58, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. In this case (and, what is also very important: in this moment), I see no overriding encyclopedic principle that would trump WP:COMMONNAME. MOS:IDENTITY certainly doesn't - for one, it doesn't say anything about the title. In particular, the NYT quote supplied by Iselilja above strikes me as more or less the only possible common sense approach to the issue. GregorB (talk) 10:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The move has been premature and should be reverted. This person is known for being involved in the WikiLeaks affair, and throughout these events was known as Bradley Manning. Therefore, per WP:COMMONNAME, this should also be reflected in the title of the Wikipedia article. I only learned of his name/gender change from the Wikipedia main page, so it can not be considered to be common knowledge (yet). Also, I think User:Alex Bakharev brought forth quite a good argument when comparing the Manning case with Cat Stevens.--FoxyOrange (talk) 10:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)(changed my mind, see below)--FoxyOrange (talk) 20:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Like many others above, I see WP:COMMONNAME as the most salient policy here. A quick google search of news in the last day suggests that a great deal of sources still refer to Manning as Bradley, e.g. "Bradley Manning: 'I am a female.'" The Independent is happy to consider Manning as female, using "she" etc. throughout, but still initially names the article's subject as Bradley, who now wishes to be called Chelsea. The only major outlet that is identifying Manning as Chelsea over Bradley in its headlines appears to be the Guardian. Until that changes (which it absolutely might in the next few days), this move is premature and the article should be at Bradley Manning. (And, from what I can see about the history of this move, a lack of consensus on the issue should result in a reversion to Bradley Manning also.) U-Mos (talk) 11:02, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: An admin should have reverted this immediately since it was done out of process. (Since others are opining also: Per WP:CommonName, plus just too soon. Do put it in the first sentence as "who prefers to be known as Chelsea E. Manning" for now. When it becomes clear that Manning wants to continue using the name and a number of sources are in fact using it, it would be appropriate to change. Also, considering this is an important legal case and most of the events of importance to American history will have happened before the announcement, it seems strange that Manning would be called a she for most of the article, even if Manning preferred that. If a person who was blond all their notable life, nicknamed the "blond brainiac" or whatever, became a brunette and wanted to be re-described as a brunette in their Wikipedia bio, that would seem to be a questionable rewriting of history. In the personal section, if there was a discussion Manning's experiences as a closet transgender person, or whatever, it would be appropriate to describe Manning as "she" since it would be a description of Manning's objective emotional state.) [Added later 8/26/13: This current sentence "Manning was by then living as an openly gay man. Her relationship with her father was apparently good, but there were problems between Manning and her stepmother." makes it clear how absurd it is to call Bradley a female before Chelsea came out as a female four days ago. User:Carolmooredc 11:09, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
IDENTITY is a style guide concerning the content of an article, whereas WP:COMMONNAME is policy regarding the title of articles. That is what is being discussed here. Support votes here are not votes of support for describing Manning as "he" in the prose of the article. U-Mos (talk) 11:31, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_titles#Considering_title_changes Title change to Chelsea Manning is being discussed. The title change breaks Wikipedia policy. Agreed, it seems pretty black and white. Note that MOS:IDENTITY states "When there is no dispute". There is a dispute, making it void. Sovetus (talk) 11:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The "dispute" is not as to the claim itself; that is undisputed. That others want to claim it doesn't count (because of no attestation of hormone levels, or whatever) does not make it a "dispute" for that purpose - David Gerard (talk) 11:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, the type of dispute is not specified. There is a dispute, so again, it's void. Sovetus (talk) 12:18, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The "when there is no dispute" is in reference to what's in the first bullet point, not the second. — Richard BB 11:49, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed that is what I was referring to. Keep in mind that it's a guideline and not a policy though. Sovetus (talk) 12:18, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • oppose. MOS:IDENTITY says what it says, and I see this as no different to the generally undisputed name changes frequently requested by musicians. I suspect that most of the objection, even if veiled in terms of interpreting Wikipedia policy, really boils down to "I don't want to change my gender, nobody I can relate to wants to change their gender, so if somebody wants to change their gender they're weird and strange and it shouldn't be allowed". Please, let's get over that. The fact that people are different is awesome, and I for one celebrate the chance to find out about people who are, truly and deeply, different to me in some way. It keeps things interesting. I'm a bit disappointed at the number of "support" votes from folks not giving a damn about Wikipedia policy, and simply saying variations on "But he's still got a penis and is says Bradley on his documents..." As documented elsewhere, these facts are irrelevant in this case. Alaric (talk) 11:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. If, as I gather from the above comments, gender is something that you can change by declaring that you do, it is something utterly subjective. Therefore, as an encyclopedia based upon the pillar of NPOV, we should take the path of least resistance (in this case, least likely to be thought of as non-neutral) and categorise persons by their sex as opposed to their gender, given that the first is far less controversial than the second (unless anybody wants to claim that Bradley Manning is of the female sex now, which would constitute either a falsehood or a radical redefinition of the verb "is"). -Anagogist (talk) 12:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support WP:UCN and MOS:IDENTITY demand it revert to Bradley. He grows up for 20-some-odd years at Bradley Manning, He commits acts against the country as Bradley Manning, gets convicted and sentenced as Bradley Manning. And for one day says "Call me Chelsea" and we jump? No. If Charles Manson wanted to be called Veronica Manson, we wouldn't trade a one-day circus freak show with the years and significance under his own name. We will always have to qualify this article by reference to his history under where he gained notability/notoriety...as Bradley Manning, and it would be just as ridiculous as that phrase "The Artist formerly known as Prince." --ColonelHenry (talk) 12:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly Oppose They have explicitly asked to be referred to as "Chelsea Manning" and "She". The fact the mass media are constantly misgendering her is not an excuse to perpetuate the transmisogyny. --Dee Earley (talk) 12:35, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Some exceptions aside, there are plenty of media outlets who are not misgendering Manning. Almost all reports since her identification as female are about that very act, and so or the time being the principal name used in such reports is naturally going to be Bradley. If and when that changes, Wikipedia can and should follow suit. U-Mos (talk) 12:56, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You're missing the point, she said she is now using the name X, therefore we should use the name X. My point about the media is that just because they're ignoring it doesn't mean WP should too. --Dee Earley (talk) 14:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"My point about the media is that just because they're ignoring it doesn't mean WP should too" - again, the purpose of Wikipedia is not what you might think it is. This website exists not to introduce new ideas, but to repeat ideas that exist elsewhere. Have a look at what Wikipedia is about. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 14:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It appears that adhering to its own MOS:IDENTITY policy is something else Wikipedia is not for. --Dee Earley (talk) 14:34, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I thought this was a RM discussion about the article title, and that the "she" shenanigans that MOS:IDENTITY deals with are discussed in a section below. Turns out that this isn't a RM discussion, huh? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 15:18, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose She owns her name, she has explicitly stated intention to legally change it and pursue physical gender reassignment, and while the likelihood that the entire media will refer to Manning as "Chelsea" anytime soon is essentially nil, there are already numerous major media sources referring to Manning as Chelsea. The combination of Manning's stated intention/preferences and substantial, if not universal, pickup outweighs any other concerns. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 12:48, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per MoS and the subject's clearly stated preference. I understand that some may support the move on the basis of WP:COMMONNAME, but the amount of pure, policy-unrelated bigotry displayed by a vocal minority is appalling. I thought, obviously naively, that all such people had moved to Conservapedia, concerning themselves there with proving that women's rights movements cause cancer or whatever. What's even worse is that some of these users are minors. Anyway, I'd be willing to bet that many of those who favour Bradley Manning over Chelsea Manning [would have] opposed moving Hillary Rodham Clinton to Hillary Clinton, despite claiming here that common name trumps preferred name. An example off the top of my head - Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge, called Kate Middleton by an overwhelmingly large majority of sources, has stated that she wishes to be known as Catherine, and we respect her wish. Why doesn't the subject of this article deserve that we respect her wish? Surtsicna (talk) 13:21, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Try to stick to the top parts of the pyramid when making an argument.
  • You really shouldn't use ad hominem attacks against other people simply because they disagree with you. By saying that we're all crazy right-wing neo-cons that belong at Conservapedia, you're essentially making a personal attack against other contributors. Address the content, and not the person. Also, why should people with different views to you have to leave for Conservapedia? Is Wikipedia your super secret clubhouse, for like-minded pro-(whatever) people only? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 13:36, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please don't misunderstand me, Benlisquare. I never said that you are all "crazy right-wing neo-cons". In fact, I never said that about anyone. I clearly said that I understand those who support the proposal on the basis of WP:COMMONNAME and who thus have different views than I. I do understand them, although I disagree with them (as explained above using examples of women who are referred to by their preferred name rather than by their overhwelmingly more common name). Please note the conjuction "but", which seperates these users from those that "I thought [...] had moved to Conservapedia". Instead of citing valid arguments, the latter only shout out that Manning has a penis. Nothing more, unless you include repeatedly and as prominently as possible pointing out that they consider her a "he". Therefore, I have addressed the content, and I have clearly distinguished people with reasonable arguments from people with purely bigoted screeching. Surtsicna (talk) 14:03, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, MOS:IDENTITY is not a naming convention; it is a guideline for article content, and WP:COMMONNAME often overrides respect for article subjects' wishes. Many good examples have already been given: late in life, Malcolm X adopted the name El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz, but he is still referred to as Malcolm X, so that is what we call him. Cat Stevens adopted Yusuf Islam as his personal, professional, and legal name 35 years ago, but it is as Cat Stevens that people will look for information about him. If we want to follow policies and guidelines, the title should be Bradley Manning, but the content should begin "Chelsea Elizabeth Manning (born Bradley Edward Manning) is..." and use feminine pronouns. - Cal Engime (talk) 15:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is an encyclopedia not a "Have your wishes granted here" sort of thing, if the media is calling the person "Bradley Manning" then we follow and call the person Bradley Manning its simple as that. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I just named two women who got their wishes granted despite the fact that the media only seldom uses their preferred names. It's obviously not as simple as you claim it is. Surtsicna (talk) 19:04, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support a move back to Bradley Manning per WP:COMMONNAME Eopsid (talk) 13:32, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep it at Chelsea Manning As others have said, MoS:Identity is clear on the pronoun issue. While it doesn't directly speak on the title issue, the principles remain the same when a person has clearly expressed a desire to be known by a different name for reasons of gender identity. Similarly the basic ideal of BLP strongly supports us sticking with the subject's preference. IMO, as I mentioned above, these two do ultimately supercede COMMONNAME in this as they do in other cases. I originally planned to support a move back to Bradley Manning in the event of no consensus based on our normal practice is to stick with the earlier version in the event of no consensus of a disputed change but on further consideration I think that shouldn't apply here. In the event of no consensus a subject's clear preference should be the default option. I do not consider this similar to the case of Burma/Myanmar or Ivory Coast/Côte d'Ivoire (where incidentally I support both Myanmar and Côte d'Ivoire) because although the government has expressed a clear preference for the name in English, the issue is on a far lesser scale than a person's gender preference. Similarly for case like a mildly offensive but common nickname. This seems to be similar for Chad Johnson although I don't really get the relevance of that case anyway, our article was titled Chad Ochocinco for most of the time he was known as that, when he changed back his name we changed it back as well. It's true we didn't have the space for a year or two and we never followed the 'Hachi Go' which from what I can tell, wasn't even seriously followed by Chad. A more comparable example I can think of would be something like Malcolm X, where someone abandons their former surname because of their extreme dislike of how they came to have that surname. (Similar examples may be a kidnapping victim or someone abandoning a name given to them by abusive parent/s or where say a person who finds out they're descendent from someone who renamed themselves to try and escape persecution and choses to completely embrace their ancestral name.) While some may suggest this means we should name the article Malcolm Shabazz or Malik el-Shabazz, from what I can tell although that name was used and may have been preferred, they didn't have similar hostile feelings towards the name Malcolm X. In any case, I consider this whole discussion somewhat of a waste of time. I'm reasonably sure within a few weeks, if not in the 7 days of a normal RM, it's going to become clear Chelsea Manning is her common name so the issue will be moot. I only bothered to reply in the hope it will help clarify the issue for future cases where the limited number of reliable sources and interest may make it more difficult. BTW, on the Brianna issue, if she later decides she would prefer Brianna but most sources still use Chelsea, I would have no problem sticking with Chelsea unless there is similarly a very good reason to use Brianna. (The same of it had been in reverse.) Nil Einne (talk) 14:03, 23 August 2013 (UTC) Edit: I would add that to some extent we're fortunate that Manning did not feel it better change his surname/family name as e.g. Brandon Teena. While this discussions is only about the title, and many supporters of Bradley have noted we should use Chelsea in the article intro, this is fairly normal. What is AFAIK abnormal is for us to use one surname in the article and another in the title. Most of the examples cited e.g. Lily Allen, Malcolm X (which because of the X uses Malcolm X) do not do so. Yet IMO there's even less justification to do so under out policies in this case or in other examples I outlined (e.g. even if Malcolm X was still commonly referred to as Malcolm Little despite a clear strong adversion to the surname Little. One thing I forgot to mention before, I acknowledge that precisely how strongly Bradley feels about the name thing may not be entirely clear, IMO the evidence is strong enough, even with the most recent statement shown below that it is something she cares a lot about even if she knowns in some circumstances it will be unavoidable. Nil Einne (talk) 23:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Because, for one, MOS:IDENTITY requires Wikipedia to respect the gender identity of biographical subjects, and two, legal names and biological sex has no bearing on how a subject is identified by the encyclopedia. "Norma Jean Mortenson" is listed as Marilyn Monroe, and Joshua Abraham Norton, the self-proclaimed Emperor of San Francisco, is called Emperor Norton. Gender identity is not comparable to those two examples, of course, but they do demonstrate that the encyclopedia's commitment to "fact" doesn't require it to use legal recognition as an all-important criteria. theBOBbobato (talk) 14:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Suppport Bradley Manning is the common name, and also the name used for all the most notable activity (I haven't seen a source that refers to Chelsea Manning without mentioning Bradley Manning). Manning also went by Brianna Manning before as the above notes. If Chelsea becomes Manning's established name then we can change at that point, but at the moment this move violates WP:CRYSTAL. Wikipedia isn't the place to right great wrongs; change the world, and it will eventually be reflected in this article, not the other way around, IRWolfie- (talk) 14:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose She has made clear her desire to be known as Chelsea Manning and we should respect that. The redirect from her old name to her new name is sufficient. edd (talk) 14:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support until such time that the majority of reliable sources begin to refer to him as Chelsea and/or he legally changes his name to Chelsea. Even then, there seems to be no reason to change the gender of pronouns in the article until Manning undergoes some kind of sexual reassignment surgery. His body is clearly still male, referring to him as "she", while respectful of his wishes, only serves to confuse the reader. Which do we value more, having a factual and easy-to-understand article on Manning, or going to great lengths to respect Manning's wishes. What would we do if Manning came out tomorrow and said that he'd like to be considered a dog instead of a human, that we should refer to him as Rover, and use "it" instead of "he/she"? Manning can say that he wants to be a girl all he wants, but the fact remains that he's not. ‑Scottywong| talk _ 14:29, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm just saying that Manning is asking people to refer to him as something that he is not. If he asked us to refer to him in the same way that we'd refer to a single-celled amoeba, I doubt we'd oblige. I'm obviously not inferring that transgendered people (or whatever the correct term is) are equivalent to dogs or amoebas, I'm just making a comparison to illustrate my point. ‑Scottywong| gossip _ 14:15, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Although I may contradict my last comment on this page, unless "Chelsea" is Manning's nickname I oppose the move. He's still a man, and he's still named Bradley legally speaking. There's no documents about his name and sex change... yet. But for now the title should be named "Bradley Manning". Just use his custom name as a sidenote. Hitmonchan (talk) 14:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support return to "Bradley Manning" (with "Chelsea as a redirect) - At the moment, reliable sources are still overwhelmingly calling the subject "Bradley". So, per WP:COMMONNAME "Bradley" should continue to be the title of the article. That said... we should re-evaluate the situation in a month or so. If it can be established that sources are changing their usage to reflect Manning's preference, then I would heartily support a new RM to move the title to "Chelsea". Blueboar (talk) 15:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. WP:COMMONNAME "the new name is going to become widely recognized extremely soon" means it is not recognized now. Therefore the move to change the title from the one users of Wikipedia are expected to know was premature. We are responding to a statement made in the current news cycle. Apparently in the past Manning has expressed a desire to have a different first name and Manning can pick a different name to be called tomorrow. That should not govern how an encyclopedia, even a wiki-pedia titles its articles. Within the article itself there can be clarification as to the person's chosen name. I think this issue is similar to that of countries wanting to be called by another name than the one recognized by the rest of the world. I am not making light of the feelings and frustrations relating to gender identity, and I understand that country names don't concern gender identity, but issues of identity, including ethnic and religious identity, are very strongly felt. Using [WP:COMMONNAME]] can give great offense in a number of areas, but the purpose of using the Common Name is to facilitate the user's ability to locate the correct article. The example of Cat Stevens, which is not his birth certificate name nor his preferred name, is one where the [WP:COMMONNAME]] has been kept. Whatever name is chosen will lead to some confusion, but that is to be expected any time a famous person changes their name; as in the Cat Stevens article, the confusion can be easily cleared up in the first sentence. Ileanadu (talk) 15:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support revert to Bradley Manning. A move to Chelsea Manning may be in order soon, depending on whether the new name catches on, but doing this move precipitously on the day of his announcement of what he wants to be called was inappropriate. We don't retitle company or band or person articles just because they announce a new thing they want to be called. And while I respect the gender identity decision, we again need to wait and see just how real it is, as opposed to a sentencing-day stunt. Give it a few days at least and let's watch and talk about it. Dicklyon (talk) 16:14, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Per WP:COMMONNAME. Bradley is still his name and he is still a he until he changes both his name and undergoes the necessary treatments to become a woman. In addition, until sources start solely printing his name as "Chelsea", it needs to stay as Bradley. For example, if my name is John (and I'm notable) and prefer to be called Johnny, but all the media prints it as John, then my wikipedia page should say John.--Giants27(T|C) 16:50, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
--Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 19:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
            • You can throw all the sources that you want out there are ones out there that use Bradley Manning as mentioned here numerous places one more being CNN:
  • CNN "Could Bradley become Chelsea? The answer is no, not without a fight" There are plenty of sources that state his name as "Bradley" per elsewhere in the argument here. As for BLP that is a broad statemen, are you saying that major news media are not treating this with respect when it is in the majority of sources? Since when is Wikipedia the authority on this? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:51, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's really simple, knowledgekid. Manning wants to be known as a woman and as Chelsea. So we call her Chelsea. To do otherwise would be disrespectful. It gains nobody anything to continue using "Bradley" and is disrespectful to Manning. If you want to disrespect her, well, I guess that's your choice, but can you tell me why? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 22:21, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Seeing I am taking this as a potential personal attack I will be the mature one and walk away here, don't assume things about other people please, the name Bradley is being used in the majority of sources if you cant see that then it's your problem not mine. I think you are taking this to heart rather than editing and looking at the policies here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Anthonyhcole: That's not a reasonable question; that's a loaded question. -- tariqabjotu 00:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Tariqabjotu: @Knowledgekid87:: Mmm. It might be seen as such; so, let me rephrase it. Continuing to use Bradley and he when the subject wants to be known as Chelsea and she is disrespectful of the subject. Continuing to use Bradley and he gains nobody anything, since everybody can find the article, regardless of the search term they use. So, the net effect of continuing to use Bradley and he is harm. That's how I see this. Can you tell me the good I'm overlooking that comes from continuing to use Bradley and he that outweighs the harm of disrespecting our BLP subject? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 05:20, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Anthonyhcole: If Manning made a statement tomorrow that he now considers himself to be a golden retriever, and would like to be referred to as Rover, and would like people to use "it" as a pronoun when referring to him... would you argue that the title of this article should be Rover Manning, that we should change all pronouns to "it", and add a sentence to the lead that says "Rover Manning is a golden retriever." After all, that is what Rover wants, and it would be disrespectful of it to do otherwise. Obviously, that is a somewhat ridiculous analogy, but it is an equivalent circumstance. In both circumstances, Manning is asking to be called a different name, and he is asking to be referred to as a gender that is different from his actual gender. "Continuing to use Bradley and he gains nobody anything..." I disagree, it gains accuracy and clarity by referring to things as they actually are, not the way people want them to be. After all, this is an encyclopedia about facts, not Manning's personal diary. ‑Scottywong| confabulate _ 14:25, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
User:Scottywong. As far as the name goes, I disagree. If one of our subjects publicly announces they'd now prefer to be called Rover, the respectful response would be to call them that and arrange redirects and hatnotes accordingly (unless it's obviously ephemeral or frivolous - and there's no sign of that here.) Regarding the gender of the pronouns we use: when Manning says I'm a woman, she's not claiming to have a vagina or two X chromosomes; she's saying her gender identity is female, that she feels and responds as a woman. When a person feels and responds as a woman and desires to be recognised as a woman, I'm happy to recognise her as such. Gender identity often goes in lock-step with sex, but not always.
I acknowledge the existence and importance of your feeling self, that your manliness or womanliness is a part of it, that it is largely immutable, and that it is presently objectively unmeasurable (unlike a vagina, a hormone or a chromosome); and I'm happy to acknowledge you, the feeling you, for who you are, regardless of your anatomy, endocrinology or histology. YMMV. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:44, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't good logic, what if manning wanted to be known as "The baby killer" or "Jack the ripper" then? Do we follow suit? We as an encyclopedia go by what the media is calling this, and the name most widely used is "Bradley Manning" I understand if you have some personal feelings on this and what is right or what is wrong but it is what it is. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:14, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
But she doesn't, does she? She is simply announcing that from now on she wishes to be known as Chelsea. We don't deliberately and for no good reason insult our BLP subjects by calling them their old name when they've made it very plain that they've changed their name. Get over it. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:18, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now. The precedent I'll go by is Sears Tower, which redirects to some name I never heard of but apparently is used. The newest name generally wins in article titling. That doesn't mean we shouldn't use the old name wherever appropriate, just that the article is "about" the newest name, and the person using an old name is the one who expects to be updated. I say "for now", however, because the media mentions are still under 50%, the change isn't legal, and so there is considerable reason to wonder if the change will ever really catch on. It was premature to move the article but it's pointless to move it back unless we see reason to think "Bradley" will continue to be the COMMONNAME. Wnt (talk) 17:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose. As per the definitions of Transgender people, and as per Chelsea's declared wishes, the Chelsea Manning site should remain where it is. Hurtsmyears (talk) 17:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Putting other policies and guidelines aside for a moment, how did the R in WP:BRD get skipped? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears to me that the article was moved, protected, and now we're discussing whether to move it back to the title at which it has been stable for, what, years now? Aren't we missing something in between moving and protecting? VoBEDD 17:48, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support. It isn't a legal name change yet. If she gets a deed poll, fine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonie148 (talk • contribs)
  • Oppose. I can't say that I read all of the above comments, but MOS:IDENTITY provides that we should be using pronouns that accord with their expressed gender. It's true that as some pointed out that the name "Chelsea Manning" isn't a pronoun, so obviously that guidance is in some regard tangential, but really, it would be ludicrous to have an article "Bradley Manning" that exclusively used female pronouns. Furthermore, even leaving this issue to one side, I believe that we should not necessarily follow the majority of reliable sources with respect to this particular sort of naming issue in the BLP context. Maybe this is a POV thing to say, but I think that following the majority of media sources on this point just promotes systemic bias against people with gender dysphoria. A lot of people just don't understand and haven't thought about the difference between gender and sex, or what it means to be transgender. Furthermore, some media outlets do agree with us; the AP style manual says "reporters should use the name and pronouns preferred by a transgender person" (see here) and the press appears to be evolving on this one (see here; NYT has been removing male pronouns, for instance). Finally, what I personally believe is that, if someone identifies themselves as a female and says that they've felt as though they were a female since birth – which is exactly what the soldier formerly known as Bradley Manning said – then who are we to say "Wrong! You have a penis, so you're a man!" AgnosticAphid talk 18:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • This move discussion is about an article's title change not about it's content. - 18:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Support renaming to Bradley Manning per WP:COMMONNAME. AutomaticStrikeout (₵) 18:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I want to seek a technical Support / return to original title. It's noteworthy, though, that different news agencies seem to go different ways (with most still using the legal name for various reasons - some explained, some not):
    1. CNN's video on Manning's statement stated that it will keep using the current legal name (about 1 min into the video)
    2. A New York Times blogger referring to the NYT's MoS which has provision to keep a newsworthy name against the subject's wish (Unless a former name is newsworthy or pertinent, use the name and pronouns (he, his, she, her, hers) preferred by the transgender person - original emphasis removed)
    3. Reuters uses the legal name
    4. ABC News reports kept the legal name usage as primary, but one of its opinion pieces supports the change
    5. CBS News also keeps the original legal name in use.
  • NBC News clearly has switched to preferred name by Manning in multiple articles published since Thursday afternoon. I think it's best if it gets summed up by this USA Today article: Media torn in Manning 'he' or 'she' pronoun debate - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 18:50, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose. :: That she is "biologically" male is dubious as a categorical claim. She may have male genitals, but she has also been biologically determined to identify and act as a female in many ways. It's pretty clear to me that personal identification, particularly on a BLP, should trump wrongheaded notions of what we consider to be her "objective" gender. Steeletrap (talk) 19:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: This should have been handled by BRD, instead it was Bold, Revert, Bold, Lock. In fact, the right thing to do here is move it back to Bradley, and then have a 7-day discussion about moving it to Chelsea. But since that's not happening, the argument that it should stay at Bradley for now is first WP:COMMONNAME, since Bradley is common, and second that reliable sources are still treating Manning as "Bradley, who wants to be called Chelsea". I've heard two radio news reports (CBS and an AP report) in the last half hour, which are still calling Manning a him, that wants to be a her. I'm sensitive of the plight of the transgendered to gain acceptance, but this article is not your WP:SOAPBOX. It's supposed to be a collection of human knowledge, and at the moment we have a lot more knowledge of Bradley than we do of Chelsea. Livit⇑Eh?/What? 19:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    @Livitup and Vobedd: As both of you seem to have made similar points, let me point you to the logs for this page. Following the protection, it was moved back [by me] to Bradley Manning (citing the original move being undiscussed and controversial) but returned to Chelsea Manning [by David Gerard (talk · contribs)] citing BLP. It's unlikely it's going to be moved back to Bradley Manning for the duration of this discussion. -- tariqabjotu 20:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The name should be Bradly Manning until such time that the name Chelsea becomes predominant in third party sources or it gets legally changed, if it does. The purpose of this article is to be useful, not to be written in a manner sensitive and pleasing to the subject. I find the tendency of opponents to put some Manual of Style paragraph and the wishes of the person involved (who is after all at this time a convicted criminal) above such core principles of wikipedia as neutral PoV and verifiability quite worrying. Ultimately anyone who isn't aware that Manning's lawyer just made a declaration about his gender might just stumble on this article and be completely confused about what the hell is going on and who the woman is. I'm not opposed to Bradly being referred as "she", "her", etc.. in the paragraph where his gender dysphoria is mentioned but if the article name is confusing that just makes it less useable and informative to anyone who is interested in the Manning case and not various editor's online activism. Helixdq (talk) 19:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The rapidity of Wikipedia's response in moving the article to Chelsea is something to be proud of. Theodolite (talk) 20:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Vehement Oppose Not only does MOS:IDENTITY make it clear that we should go by the subject. Further, outside organizations instruct that we should identify the transgender individual as they want to be addressed (see GLAAD's document here). The case of a transgender individual is not at all in the same universe as the above supporter's comparison of Snoop Dogg vs. Snoop Lion. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:IDENTITY only addresses gendered nouns, pronouns, and possessive adjectives in text; It does not cover article titles. Article titles are, as is stated in the policy, covered by other policies (Verifiability, Neutral point of view, and Article titles). It's a stretch to say MOS:IDENTITY covers this issue.--Labattblueboy (talk) 20:58, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Until he/she gets a gender change they are still considered a male. Once that occurs then we should change it but not just based on the decleration that they want to be referred to as Chelsea. Kumioko (talk) 21:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
They have "changed gender" (Or more correctly, affirmed their gender) by the very fact they have said "I am a female." Perhaps you are referring to the genitals? Not that they matter to anyone bar her and any partners. --Dee Earley (talk) 10:46, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Per WP:COMMONNAME. Currently, the "Bradley Manning" name is more recognizable and natural. Unless and until reliable sources start referring to this person more often as "Chelsea Manning" than as "Bradley Manning", it is a WP:NOR violation to use the new name preferred by this person. Like it or not, Wikipedia should not be on the forefront of using the new name - we follow reliable sources with such changes, not lead them. We have no obligation to be more sensitive than the NY Times are any other mass media publisher. --B2C 21:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Notwithstanding the haphazard use of moves to and lack of discussion to get the page here in the first place, there are several good reasons why it should be at Bradley Manning. First, the vast majority of sources, including the trial, use his original name. If and when it becomes the standard for major news outlets to use his name directly as Chelsea Manning in something other than the direct context of his gender change, then I might begin to support such a pagemove after a reasonable amount of time for solid evidence and consensus. Further, there is concern that, rather than following news articles on style and gender pronouns here, media is following Wikipedia. Simply put, Wikipedia is not meant to be a leader, but a follower. This is not a criticism against Wikipedia, its the way any impartial encyclopedia must work, if it is to maintain its standard of impartiality. Activism and advocacy has its place and time, but it isn't here or now. SodaAnt Talk 21:35, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Slightly depressing that it's actually necessary to vote on this. Formerip (talk) 21:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is not voting and your contribution cites no basis or reasoning; it's WP:JDLI. --B2C 21:48, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • You're wrong on both counts. Like it or not, this probably will be treated substantially as a vote. The fact that it is slightly depressing to even need to debate the question is a valid rationale. However it might be dressed up, it boils down to a simple question to whether Wikipedia should respect a person's request regarding their gender identity. There are not two equally valid stances on that. Formerip (talk) 22:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • To even take primary source information like that into account would violate WP:NOR. Th editors of reliable sources should decide whether to respect a person's request regarding their gender identity - and WP editors should follow suit, just like we do on every other issue. --B2C 22:43, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The status quo ante belleum should be restored, then this discussion should take place.Two kinds of pork (talk) 21:45, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support As long as in official documents his name is Bradley and the common use is Bradley as well, it should be on that name. Obviously the recent news related to his gender-identity announcements take that into account, but we'll have to see if all of the common use switches to Chelsea. So it is too early to decise yet; Bradley Manning until that I believe should be the choice. --Pudeo' 22:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support His/her name is legally and commonly known as Bradley Manning. I realize this is a very emotional issue for certain editors but Wikipedia is a resource not a platform. We would be doing a disservice to the readers by naming it any way other than using WP:COMMONNAME. --BHC (talk) 22:43, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Despite all the gender bending excitement in the last week, readers are still ten times more likely to be searching for "Bradley Manning" than for "Chelsea Manning", according to Google Trends. Antonio Hazard (talk) 22:50, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

24 August 2013 (UTC)

Extended content
In 1964, world-famous boxer Cassius Clay won the heavyweight championship from Sonny Liston, but soon joined the Nation of Islam, and the world quickly accepted new name "Muhammad Ali". For 50 years, that is how the world has worked. -Wikid77 20:00, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:IDENTITY (a guideline), which has been cited many times above, is tightly related to BLP, the latter easily trumping COMMONNAME. I am confident that the spirit of BLP requires the current (feminine) title. -- Scray (talk) 01:56, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:IDENTITY which is yes a guideline has this in the lead, I have bolded the wording as it relates to the title move discussion: "Disputes over how to refer to a person or group are addressed by policies such as Verifiability, Neutral point of view, and Article titles where the term appears in the title of an article." - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:58, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There is no controversy over the verifiability of her name, and her choice trumps (redirects handle the rest). -- Scray (talk) 02:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The move discussion is to change the title of the article or keep it the way it is, if redirects handle the rest then what is the harm keeping it as Bradley Manning with Chelsea as the redirect when the majority of media sources are using the term? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:13, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The harm is that we'd be violating the spirit of MOS:IDENTITY and BLP. Enough, already, with the badgering. -- Scray (talk) 02:36, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for jumping on this, but why exactly does "WP:BLP trump WP:ARTICLENAME"? Many participants use this argument (or a similar one) during this discussion, but I have to admit that I can't see any primary/secondary ranking of the Wikipedia policies. Quite the opposite: When it comes to page names, then (obviously) WP:ARTICLENAME should be the first policy to be consulted.--FoxyOrange (talk) 05:09, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm certainly not an expert on policies generally or BLP specifically, but I believe that BLP is seen as a sort of super-policy because it has real-life implications in a way that most policies about encyclopedia topics don't. YMMV. AgnosticAphid talk 07:45, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly Agree. The fact is he can request to call himself "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" if he wants, however, there is also a legal name changing process that must be gone though to change a legal name. The page should be reverted back to "Bradley Manning" until he requests that name change and it is approved by a judge Bwmoll3 (talk) 03:14, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly Oppose due to MOS:IDENTITY open and shut case. Legality of name change is a red herring, such a public announcement suffices in some jurisdictions, not in others. What Manning's "real" sex is an ideological not biological issue. I happen to believe "female" based on neuro-anatomy which I believe defines identity, but others can reasonably differ. Zoe Brain (talk) 04:52, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support. Although I find the trans-phobic comments in support of the move pretty reprehensible, I have to admit that COMMONNAME and the principle of least surprise leads me to conclude that the article name should be "Bradley Manning" for the foreseeable future, while the article content should unambiguously use feminine pronouns and the name "Chelsea" in compliance with MOS:Identity. VanIsaacWS Vexcontribs 05:03, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose. Per MOS:IDENTITY, we should certainly acknowledge that Chelsea is a woman, and given that we seem to have a media broadly recognizing her right to her female name (yes, some still call her Bradley, but her actual name is established in the media), WP:COMMONNAME seems less-than-decisive, and using WP:IDENTITY to acknowledge the name she explicitly told us to use seems the appropriate approach. On another note, Jesus Christ some of these comments are transphobic. Yes, she has a penis; that's one of the inconvenient aspects of being a pre-op trans woman. Yes, the US government is likely to ignore whatever official requests she tenders, because they are backwards on these sort of things always. She is still a woman, and Wikipedia should not veer into trans-hate for the sake of the news outlets and governments that have not internalized the message. An Editor With a Self-Referential Name (talk) 05:22, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Not particularly happy with the support mind you but as I was thoroughly smacked around with when I first got here the policy is what is important not my personal beliefs. WP:COMMONNAME and Article Titles are more clear cut and BLP and the MOS:IDENTITY have tenuous options at best when you talk about the title (though they do explicitly say changing the gendered pronouns and nouns so I am all for that.) The more common title and search indication should reflect what this individual is known for, in this case it is the wikileaks federal prosecution case, and that is under the title of Bradley. Nothing else this individual has done (including the statement of gender identification) meets Notability and therefore we should use the name that is associated with that notability. Now if that notability starts linking to Chelsea I will be the first to jump up and start saying we need to change the title to reflect it but until that point I don't see it as being supported by policy as they currently stand. I would suggest someone make a request to change the policies (such as BLP) to include title name and see if that gains consensus as a work around but right now this doesn't meet the requirements. Tivanir2 (talk) 05:34, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support. Manning's celebrity is based on his activity as a male; changing his identity is rewriting history. It's as bad as changing British names late in life to add pompous and pretentious titles. Manning's own statement was to apply from this time forward, and made no suggestion of retroactivity. So, if there is to be a Chelsea Manning article it should only apply to events taking place after her public statement. Eclecticology (talk) 06:52, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Can you point to any other person on Wikipedia whose life is divided into two completely separate articles based on their gender identity? If not, why are you suggesting that we start doing this with Chelsea Manning? Do you propose that we do the same for every other transgender person with a Wikipedia article? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:57, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. WP:IDENTITY is pretty clear on this one; transgender people, including Manning, should be identified as their latest expressed gender self-identification, which extends to their names. It seems like a lot of the support !votes reflect a poor understanding of trans issues; it's not like she's going to change her self-identified gender back within the week, so the "premature" argument doesn't hold weight, and the people who are arguing that she hasn't changed her legal name/hasn't started hormones/etc. don't seem to really understand the transition process and how long it can take to get to the various steps. TheCatalyst31 Reaction•Creation 07:09, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose. As Sue Gardner correctly pointed out earlier, MOS:IDENTITY is unambiguous in requiring that WP "reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification." We went through this already with the Wendy Carlos article. Wendy refers to those who refuse to refer to her as Wendy as having "cruel indifference to anyone's interests but their own. They have tried to turn me into a cliché, to treat me as an object for potential scorn, ridicule, or even physical violence by bigots (no joke in these dangerous times of beatings and deaths at the hands of the intolerant.) At best, they have arrogantly used me and abused me to grind their own prurient axes, to profit by and justify their own agendas. It's no fun to discover someone else's fetishistic hang-ups, to inadvertently confront an unsuspected slice of unwholesomeness in another. Even less amusing is to find yourself the target of painful bigotry and prejudice. [They] have caused me to wince involuntarily, and in some cases to spend sleepless hours at night. While I have never harmed or hurt any of them, they have chosen to hurt me. Is this deliberate nastiness, or just wanton insensitivity? Couldn't you wait until I'm dead? Have you no decency, no respect?" While this is clearly an emotional outpouring by someone who is deeply hurt, she makes a good point. I realize that this will generate a fair number of "please don't question the motives of those who disagree with you" responses, but I haven't seen any valid reason why so many here want to give Chelsea Manning the same shameful treatment that Wendy Carlos was subjected to. It's just wrong. --Guy Macon (talk) 07:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Having the page named Bradley Manning would not be refusing to call her by her chosen name (which would of course still be acknowledged in the lead), or subjecting her to ridicule because of her transgender status. It would only be Wikipedia fulfilling its role, as reflecting the way others have approached this issue. If the case is or becomes that media outlets come under fire for refusing to use the name Chelsea, and that causes controversy and talk about the attitudes that represents, then that would warrant inclusion in the article. But it wouldn't change the fact of her WP:COMMONNAME being Bradley Manning. Even if it's "Bradley Manning, known since August 2013 as Chelsea Manning, is a United States Army soldier..." U-Mos (talk) 10:14, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:COMMONNAME, simple as that. If we want to be wikilawyers, we can also argue that MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline, while WP:COMMONNAME is policy, and that would be enough (Speaking of guidelines, I'd also throw in WP:SURPRISE, to support moving it back). But very simply, that's the name more than 90% of sources and readers know her. I surely do hope that sources slowly and steadily begin to refer to her by her new name, and that we can revisit the issue in 12 or 24 months. For now, if we want to provide a reasonable service to readers, better bring it back at Bradley Manning. --cyclopiaspeak! 10:29, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • If we want to be a Wikilawyerly, it would only be fair to point out that the policy in question uses language like "Wikipedia prefers", "Wikipedia does not necessarily", "Editors should also consider", "are often avoided", and "are among the sources that may be helpful in deciding". Compare this with policies such as WP:V, which uses language like "Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it" (emphasis in original) and "All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable." I'm just saying. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:53, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support per WP:COMMONNAME policy. Echoing above, that's the name 99% of sources and readers know her, period. Cavarrone 10:48, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I think MOS:IDENTITY is all the more important when dealing with gender identity and particularly when dealing with primary naming; naturally it applies to article names just as to references within articles. While WP:COMMONNAME might seem to indicate the move, it is a rapidly decreasing factor; this is 2013, and society generally now accepts changes of gender identity happen and are real. The more reliable of sources are coming into line. Sam Blacketer (talk) 11:00, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on grounds that a person's declared identity is a special case and should follow WP's last-publically-declared-identity stance along the same lines as use of gendered pronouns. In other words, unlike most statements made on WP which require a weight of reliable sources, determining an identity should require one RS documenting the assertion of identity (of course barring absurd assertions like "I am Elvis," with the obvious unresolved caveat w.r.t. who determines absurdity). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smowton (talk • contribs) 12:10, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I think it is reality being really harsh towards Manning, and WP should reflect reality. I think it is wrong to argue that "we should respect Manning's wishes" Wikipedia cannot change reality, even if it is hurtful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by General Staal (talk • contribs) 13:02, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Split (edit conflict) Two articles, one Bradley, one Chelsea. Bradley article covers events through and including the announcement with male pronouns, Chelsea article covers events including the announcement onwards with female pronouns. Each article links to the other. Once we're done pretending that Wikipedia is a newspaper, maybe we can have a merge discussion. This move was most poorly done, in my opinion, and we ought to give bd2412 T a mountain of thanks for stepping forward with a proper move discussion. htom (talk) 13:57, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would the latter topic be notable enough to warrant an article? Manning is known for their actions as a (former) Private First Class by the name of Bradley who leaked certain documents, and not for any actions done whilst he assumed the name of Chelsea. If there is a split, how would you justify the existence of an article for the second topic? --benlisquareT•C•E 04:18, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Notabilty would be inherited, as they're the same human being. At the moment, the Chelsea article would be short; as the appeals grind on, it will grow. htom (talk) 17:11, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move back to Bradley Manning per policy section WP:COMMONNAME which says, "Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural." --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose move. Our BLP policy exists to prevent harm to living article subjects. That's what it's for. It's puzzling to me that users arguing COMMONNAME aren't even acknowledging that there is a conflict with other policies, let alone the fact that BLP frequently overrides other policies because of its goal of preventing harm to the subject. The argument that users won't be able to find the page they're looking for is extremely weak, since that's what we've always had redirects for. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Could you give the excerpt from WP:BLP that applies to this case? Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:14, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"The possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment." --WP:BLP --Guy Macon (talk) 14:59, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What harm, exactly, does this article title pose to the subject? It's a name Manning went by three days ago but now no longer wants to; that's all. -- tariqabjotu 15:29, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is rather easy to explain. If someone holds a position because of COMMONNAME, they would of course acknowledge that there is a conflict with other policies. If, on the other hand, they hold a position for some other reason that they would rather not admit, then they would look for a policy justifying their position, find COMMONNAME, and act as if none of the conflicting policies exist. its a pretty standard method of identifying a stalking horse. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:10, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is a clear failure to assume good faith. Many supporters, as noted, do not believe any policy contradicts COMMONNAME here. Some have argued/pointed out that MOS:IDENTITY deals with pronouns, not article titles (in fact, the guideline says Disputes over how to refer to a person or group are addressed by policies such as Verifiability, Neutral point of view, and Article titles where the term appears in the title of an article.). Please don't ascribe ulterior motives to anyone. -- tariqabjotu 15:29, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Guy Macon, Thanks for the excerpt from WP:BLP. Unfortunately, the excerpt you gave was slightly misquoted because you capitalized "The" at the beginning when it is not a sentence by itself. Here it is along with the rest of the sentence from policy which gives the context,
"Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives: the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment."
So I think that this part of WP:BLP does not apply to our case and I continue to support the move back to Bradley Manning. If you have any other excerpts from WP:BLP that you think apply to this case, I would be interested in seeing them. Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:39, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest you reconsider your statement that someone being transgender is a "titillating" tabloid story. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:35, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That isn't a restricting clause. In the English language restricting clauses have a different syntax. It also fails the sniff test; clearly we do not want to limit the harm to be considered to those specific situations, but rather any harm to living subjects must be considered when exercising editorial judgment. To do otherwise is simply evil. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:28, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're going beyond what policy says. However, I am interested about what harm you think would be done to Manning, or what harm Manning suffered in the past when the article was titled Bradley Manning. The question regarding what harm would be caused was posed to you previously by Tariqabjotu, but you didn't mention anything about harm in your response. Would you care to try again? --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:02, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I will take a crack at the question about harm. Recapping: BLP says the possibility of harm to living subjects must be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This matters because BLP trumps COMMONNAME. (I am setting aside the question of MOS:IDENTITY for the purposes of this comment.)
It is reasonable to believe there's a possibility Manning could be harmed by Wikipedia retitling the article Chelsea Manning to Bradley Manning, because she made a formal announcement explicitly asking that "starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun." Wikipedia is an important site: the #5 most-popular in the world, read by a half-billion people every month, more widely-read than any other news or information site. If Wikipedia were to call its article Bradley Manning, Manning might believe that Wikipedia is rejecting her requested name and/or gender characterization. It is not uncommon for people who feel dissonance between their experienced gender identity and the gender they were assigned at birth to feel significant emotional distress, at least some of which is due to how they're treated by society. (See this article.) And indeed, in Manning's May 2010 chat logs she describes herself as having GID (gender identity disorder), as having had three breakdowns, as being "in an awkward state," "uncomfortable with my role in society," "scared of being misunderstood" and "isolated as fuck." She says: “i wouldn’t mind going to prison for the rest of my life, or being executed so much, if it wasn’t for the possibility of having pictures of me… plastered all over the world press… as boy…” I think it's clear that Chelsea Manning hopes and expects that people will use the name and pronoun she asked them to, and that to the extent people do not, they risk causing further trauma to someone who is clearly already significantly distressed. Sue Gardner (talk) 03:00, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That seems like quite a stretch. And actually, you shoot yourself in the foot. You quote Manning saying "I wouldn't mind going to prison for the rest of my life, or being executed so much, if it wasn’t for the possibility of having pictures of me... plastered all over the world press... as boy..." So... are pictures of Manning as, by most people's observation, a boy or a man [i.e. almost every picture of the subject in the article] also violations of BLP? I sure hope not. Either way, even if we were responsible for people misinterpreting what it means for something to be the title of an article, Manning is going to spend the next thirty-five years in a maximum-security prison, where, presumably, there is no Internet access; Manning will probably never experience the trauma of seeing a Wikipedia article with a title against one's wishes. -- tariqabjotu 03:24, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Sue, thanks for your thoughtful commentary. I absolutely agree that the WORLD should, ideally, comply with Chelsea's request. But what if it doesn't, and in a years time, most outlets are back to calling her Bradley? I know Jimbo has argued for a bit of "editorializing" on this, and has proposed IAR in order to keep at Chelsea. IMHO, wikipedia should not LEAD the pack, or even necessarily be on the bleeding edge. We should follow the pack, and come in late to the party - otherwise we risk being a cause of citogenesis, and, by our actions, changing the way the world talks about and names things - that should not be our role - we are supposed to be neutral documentarians. There is reason to believe that there are LOTS of things in wikipedia articles that could cause harm to subjects that we righteously keep - for example, mentions of crimes they've committed, or indiscretions, or even minor things like birth dates (see recent Tammy Duckworth RFC, where, in spite of Duckworth's request, oodles of editors voted to add her birthday to the article). Another great example is Burma and Ivory Coast - both of these were subject of much debate, but have ended through consensus at what are seen to be COMMON english-language titles (which personally I don't agree with, but that's the way those cookies crumbled). In the case of Cote d'Ivoire, the government has formally requested, on several occasions, publicly, that the french name be used, but not all American/British media has followed suit, and since we follow media, we have "Ivory Coast" (but thankfully, we still have Costa Rica and not Rich Coast!) We risk offending millions of citizens of those countries, and officially pissing off their governments, but I don't see intervention from WMF on these matters. What I fail to understand is why TG people merit such a special exception to our article titling policy - I understand and agree with the pronoun issue, but the title is their to affirm to the user that they have arrived in the right place - so we need to balance that UI requirement for the user with the possibility to hurt the feelings of a BLP. A screenshot on this page demonstrates the silliness of the current article - when viewed on a mobile phone, the words "Bradley Manning" appear no-where on the first page - in spite of the fact that Bradley Manning is still searched 100s of times more frequently by Google users. Why would we not accede to Cat Steven's (30-year old) rename, or any of the other examples that have been trotted out - and the reason is, the article title and the article is first and foremost for the reader (while balancing BLP needs of course). The only way I can see implementing your ideas at scale is to say, there is a new change to the BLP policy, ONLY for trans* people - as soon as they announce a new name, the article is moved immediately - and it doesn't matter what reliable sources do (because if we do this, we should do this for everyone, not just Manning). But I don't think we should add such an exception, and I don't think the argument of harm to Manning is very strong in this case, especially if the first line says in bold "Chelsea Manning, (born Bradley Manning)" etc and clearly states that her preference is to be Chelsea and "she". Calling that "harm" is stretching the definition a bit too far, and equates the article title with the subject's legal/official/desired name (which is categorically not the case for other bios, and is also not what the article title MEANS). If we're so concerned about harm there is much lower and much harsher hanging fruit we should be going after - imagine if instead of this epic debate, people were removing unsourced bullshit from our hundreds of thousands of BLPs, or de-ghettoizing them in their categories, or any number of other things that are rampant and vicious (I'm sure you remember our friend Qworty and the damage he did - which is STILL not cleaned up fully). But an article title? We should be late on this, not early, and we should follow what the world does, and we should balance concerns for the BLP with concerns for our readers. If the world itself doesn't come to a clear conclusion, then we'll have to make a call, of course, but it should be informed BY reliable sources, not by a normative sense of justice. I just don't think it's our job to be progressive in these matters.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 04:48, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BLP does not apply, WP:MOSIDENTITY deals with pronouns not article titles, in fact it says in there to refer to policy when it comes to article titles. Are there any other arguments that people can make to keep this as Chelsea other than WP:ILIKEIT and "Its the right thing to do because I think it is wrong" type of comments? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 15:59, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose per Nick, Scott, and Slim (in alphabetical order :) Plus, like Anthony pointed out, there are now plenty of reliable sources. Also, this. DracoE 14:22, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose. I think GorillaWarfare, Phil Sandifer, SlimVirgin, AJF, Sj, Bearcat, and User:Sue Gardner provided recommendations based on wisdom and a considered understanding of policy. So many additional well-written statements that it feels redundant to reiterate the same. Appreciate all comments made, but I oppose based on our BLP policy, as well as MOS:IDENTITY. I would also agree with Mark Joseph Stern in the Slate article, when sharing his opinion regarding our approach in changing this article to reflect Manning's identity. This time, we got it right. Cindy(talk) 15:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - MOS:IDENTITY says a bunch of interesting things, but it can be changed, especially given that there is easily 10 times more input to this page than there has ever been to that MOS entry. My reasoning is based on the fact that this article covers this person during the period when they were a man named Bradley. While I take no issue with the way they wish to live their lives, I believe the reality here is that they ARE one thing, but IDENTIFY as another. Whether that identity is true, part of an ongoing series of self-discoveries, or a self-delusion due to an inability to connect well with any gender identity, it is still all contained within Chelsea's mind. In time, as the world around her (read:Not just the hardcore acceptance group) comes to adopt this new identity, this issue should be revisisted. However, the rush to be the first kid with their hand up is what led to such a blow-up. - Floydian τ ¢ 15:21, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:COMMONNAME. The GTrends link posted below by IRWolfie- is the key factor - as of this month, the ratio of searches is 100:1 Bradley:Chelsea. WP:IDENTITY will of course affect how it is addressed within the article, but not the name of the article. Wikipedia does not need to be in front of the pack on this, we are an encyclopedia and report what others are saying. Currently that is the male name. There is also precedence for this, Cat Stevens comes to mind initially and I could list many others. If, over time, the trend changes, we can address that then. GregJackP Boomer! 15:38, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not ignoring WP:IDENTITY, as I noted above. WP:COMMONNAME is the more applicable policy, IMO. GregJackP Boomer! 17:11, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as moving back to Bradley would be POV pushing to make a point and we arent here to do that but to build an encyclopedia. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 16:23, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support for three reasons: first, procedurally, because the page move the "Chelsea Manning" was a controversial move made without even attempting to obtain consensus, and such fait accompli maneuvers should be reversed until a contrary consensus is reached; second, because COMMONNAME is a substantive standard which, for encyclopedic content, should override stylistic standards; third, because, as the executive editor of the New York Times said in yesterday's paper, "we made the judgment readers would be totally confused if we turned on a dime overnight and changed the name and gender of a person in the middle of a major running news story. That’s not a political decision. It is one aimed at our primary constituency — our readers." The same principle should govern here; Manning's gender issues are at best a peripheral concern, unrelated to Manning's notability and most reader's interest in the matter. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 18:45, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support because that's what they're known as. --TripleU (talk) 19:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly Support - Just because (s)he has shouted to be known by some other name does not actually mean that (s)he is actually a transgender. Had (s)he been more vocal at an opportune time, (s)he might have saved the world of some idiotic espionage in recent history. DebashisMTalk 20:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
CNN Still using Bradley Manning (News article made 30 minutes ago from this post)
Boston Herald (News article made 18 hours ago from this post)
USA Today (News article made 6 hours ago from this post)
Fox news (News article made 14 hours ago from this post)
BBC still referring him to Bradley (News article made 14 hours ago from this post)
All recent sources calling him Bradley Manning. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
CNN piece-- This provides no support for your claim.
The National Lesbian & Gay Journalists Association (NLGJA) issued guidelines for reporting on Manning's transition, advising journalists to "use the name and pronouns that someone prefers," citing AP style and suggesting "that she be referenced as 'U.S. Army Private Chelsea Manning, who formerly went by the name Bradley. (emphasis mine)
The issue of pronouns and gender identity resurfaced this week when Army Pvt. Bradley Manning announced his intention to transition from male to female in a statement signed "Chelsea E. Manning."-- Neither this or the above quote is evidence of CNN calling Manning by either name, and the later is referring to the chain of events and using Bradley is necessary to describe the change.
Boston Herald - The Boston Herald is a tabloid newspaper, so this isn't exactly reliable on issues like this one.
US Today - This is an editorial piece, not something we can use to establish WP:COMMONNAME.
Fox News- The Army won't pay for Private Bradley Manning to become Chelsea Manning is the only sentence that uses Bradley. It doesn't call Manning one or the other definitively here. Later on, they quote the ACLU which calls him Chelsea. None of this supports your claim.
BBC Article - Green tickY
So, you've got one legitimate article that actually names the subject as Bradley, that's almost a day old. This is unconvincing, and my and many others' points about the MOS still stand. I, JethroBT drop me a line 23:44, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In fact, I'm not even really convinced that WP:COMMONNAME is going to help us arrive at an answer. It's an unhelpful policy for determining the subject's name in this situation. I, JethroBT drop me a line 00:00, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Excerpted from my previous post (with apologies for the clutter; I've been away for some time and am a little rusty / didn't notice that there was a vote brewing):
I get that I'm probably the last person anyone wants to hear about Manning's gender identity from, but that's the nice thing about Wikipedia - the last person you want to hear from is still someone you may have to hear from.
As a realpolitik-loving, pragmatic kinda person, my gut reaction to the issue of the name change was similar to that represented in many posts prior "Oh what, if someone wakes up one morning and decides to identify as (whatever), that's notable & verifiable?"
But upon a second or two of longer consideration, that's not the case here. Manning being trans has been a matter of discussion for years now (which is partially my fault - sorry ;x) so while the name change is sudden, the concept is not. Instead, the question of Manning identifying as female has been a consistent and unwavering detail throughout this entire affair. Certainly during the trial the preference was that references be made using the male pronoun, but that's a rather split hair - asking to be formally referred to as one thing doesn't imply that the identification has changed. It's more of a "Let's not make an issue of this just now" sorta thing.
So given the aforementioned, this isn't a case of sudden whimsy. It's a longstanding conviction by a notable subject who was under no obligation to express a firm preference at any prior point. Moreover, having your legal counsel read a prepared statement on national TV isn't quite an arbitrary expression of opinion - it's probably the firmest way you could say something short of skywriting or full page ads in The New York Times.
/Legally/ the name remains Bradley Manning. But all things considered, at this late date the legal name carries less weight than the preferred one, and unless Manning makes an additional change at some future point, can probably be deemed permanent. With musicians or performance artists electing a stage name (which I know isn't exactly fungible here, but bear with me) some amount of acceptance in circulation may be needed in order to acknowledge it; in this case the name has been imprinted onto the public consciousness just as fully, but by other means. Why quibble?<<
The point at which a discussion such as this one becomes more about internal bylaws and less about providing timely and relevant information is the point at which discussion is no longer all that useful. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia first, and a place to bicker about technicalities second.

— User:Adrian/zap2.js 23:39, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

25 August 2013 (UTC)

Extended content
  • Strongly Oppose I believe that any gender references should be applied after the date of the announcement, lest the changes give the impression that the events were performed by a woman which changes the nature and character of the conversation. Srlevine1 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:39, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, as he's more commonly known as Bradley, at least until he gets a legal name change. Jackmcbarn (talk) 01:12, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per MOS:IDENTITY and WP:BLP, and the arguments of Sue Gardner, Blue Raspberry, GorillaWarfare etc etc. Steven Zhang Help resolve disputes! 01:13, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose it really is a matter for the transgendered subject to make. And for anyone to claim that Manning was "in a state of psychosis when he decided he was Chelsea" and that "He didn't know what he was saying" is not doing their research, is being very insensitive and perhaps even outright insulting. I had reverted the mention of the gender issue back before it was clear that the subject did identify as a female and that they had made a public declaration. This isn't a political or social issue...its personal. If the subject identifies, not only in regards to gender but to name as well, it is a part of the transformation. Since Manning is in Federal Prison it is unlikely that they will receive the gender reassignment surgery (although it is possible as there is some word that the state of California may allow this eventually), but I do believe that the hormone therapy has either begun or been requested to deal with this medical issue, which this is considered by the US government federal system I do believe.--Mark 01:48, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose. A transgender person should be referred to by the gender the person truly is, as substantiated by WP:RS. The Guardian, for one, has also used female pronouns to refer to Manning, and has used her new name, as well. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 02:07, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • There are plenty of sources listed in this discussion that use the term "Bradley" - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:42, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • The gender that Bradley Manning truly is, is male (until he undergoes sexual reassignment). A person may assert their gender to be anything but the true (true meaning actual, as in what physically exists in the real world and not exclusively in the conceptual sense) gender which they actually have in reality is that of their biological sex. Walterego (talk) 10:20, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • This has been said around a dozen times here, but Walter please read Sex_and_gender_distinction for the distinction between (physical) sex and (psychological) gender. The essential idea here is not accurately describing the person's genitals as a matter of fact, but accurately reflecting their chosen identity as a matter of etiquette. Chris Smowton (talk) 10:32, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I remember discussing the exact principles floating here, in a slightly less contentious manner at the RM for Talk:Laura Jane Grace. Participants of this discussion would have been better acquainted with propriety had they respected that a consensus for best practice had already been hammered out. Also notice if you are so compelled that in the midst of similar arguments, no homophobic labels were applied and no users were faced with AN bans or similar sanctions. :) John Cline (talk) 02:55, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like the guidance for what to do in an article when someone declares their gender and name change should be covered specifically in a policy, to avoid any more of these types of long discussions in the future that seem to involve armies of editors, whose time might be more productively spent editing other articles. --Bob K31416 (talk) 03:16, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose moving back, on balance. Reasonable arguments can be made either way, but enough sources have made the change, and policy favours self-identification; together, these factors tip the scale. Andreas JN466 04:34, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support moving back for procedural reasons (the move to Chelsea Manning was not vetted) and per WP:UCN (use common names). Wikipedia follows what reliable sources use. (And MOS:IDENTITY says nothing to contradict that.) While usage may shift soon, it hasn't happened yet. Good luck to the admin who closes this one. —  AjaxSmack  05:35, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Reliable sources have already begun referring to her as Chelsea. While MOS:IDENTITY does not speak of article titles, it seems common sense that referring to "Bradley Manning" as "she" would be, at the very least, awkward and confusing. To fully comply with MOS:IDENTITY, the title needs to be changed. I don't see any point in reverting the article title if we're just going to use Chelsea anyway. The initial, bold move seems legit to me. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:50, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Manning is notable for actions undertaken when he was Bradley. The lead makes no sense now since it says Chelsea was convicted, but Bradley was convicted and the refs say so. Changing the whole article to use female gender and the chelsea name is just awkward. A subsection indicating the desire to be referred to as Chelsea makes more sense. He is not legally Chelsea, are we going to change the title again if he decides he wants to use the name Tammy next week? --Daffydavid (talk) 06:58, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Manning is indeed "notable for actions undertaken when he was Bradley". The article should only used "she" and "Chelsea" for actions undertaken before his announcement. We just cannot write things like "she was raised as a boy", "she joined the army...", "she gave documents to wikileaks", etc : it is just too confusing and IMHO unfortunate. I have no doubt that Manning's personal journey is something serious, which I respect ; but writing the article like that just makes him/her look silly. I don't think we want that. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 10:38, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as the actions for which Manning is famous (the leak, arrest, detention, trial) were carried out as "Bradley Manning". Manning's actions as "Chelsea Manning" have not eclipsed these. McPhail (talk) 14:24, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: We should just wrap this up early per WP:SNOW: there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that any persuasive new rationale is going to come out in the remaining time. If we're not doing a poll (and if we are, I support per commonname & resistance to the original violation of policy involved in the peremptory move), then we should just close up the shop and let the admin team decide.  — LlywelynII 17:29, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I disagree with wrapping it up early. WP:SNOW applies to debates where one side is definitely going to win and the other side has no chance of winning. That is not true in this case. In this case both sides of the debate seem fairly evenly matched. Cutting off the debate early could lead to Wikipedians complaining that they didn't have enough time to participate in this debate. It would be best to just let the debate last until it is scheduled to end so nobody will be able to complain that they were excluded from the process. --Yetisyny (talk) 20:55, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Nobody knows (or cares) who "Chelsea Manning" is. "Bradley Manning" is most well known for the release of documents to Wikileaks and subsequent trial. LionMans Account (talk) 17:34, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: If she identifies as Chelsea, that's where the article should be, with a thorough explanation in the lead. Dralwik|Have a Chat 17:36, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • If he identifies as Yusuf Islam, that's where the article should be. Oops, it's at Cat Stevens. Oh! So we follow usage in reliable source to decide titles, not how the subject identifies! Got it. Do you? --B2C 02:46, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • A simple name change is a far different thing than a sex change to match gender. So I'll clarify: if a transgendered person identifies as gender n, the article should identify that person as gender n. Reporting a transgendered person's gender by their birth sex can be seen as an active rejection of their transgendered nature, a potential insult that doesn't come into play with "only" name changes. Dralwik|Have a Chat 03:51, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Support per WP:NOTABILITY and multiple widespread sourcing. Manning chose to identify as a male when he enlisted in the Army. Manning became notable for his actions while identifying as a male. This WP article was created because of his notable actions as a male and the article title should reflect the name Bradley, which he chose to identify himself as, at the time of his actions. Now that he has chosen to identify as a female, that choice too has become notable and should be covered in the article.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 17:38, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Basic human decency requires that we do not continue to use Chelsea Manning's old name, given the real distress it would cause her (supporting evidence: the chat logs with Lamo in which she says that having her male persona splashed across the media would be nightmarish). Wikipedia does not exist in a moral vaccuum, and an encyclopaedia should not contribute to the making nightmarish of a mentally vulnerable person's life. 7daysahead (talk) 17:57, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As far as the effect on Manning, Wikipedia's title is negligible if it is based on what the prevalent name used in the sources are. There's much more chance that in prison Manning will be seeing newspapers, etc, instead of this Wikipedia article. And if Manning does see this article in prison, it is only one article compared to the many articles or TV programs in the media. Manning's real distress will be from being imprisoned for at least 7 years. --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:12, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The precise quote you mention is actually:

i wouldn’t mind going to prison for the rest of my life, or being executed so much, if it wasn’t for the possibility of having pictures of me… plastered all over the world press… as boy…

So, it seems Manning prefers that pictures as a boy or a man be removed. Should we honor that request? Is it our place to remove File:Bradley Manning US Army.jpg from the article? (Or this and this, released by Manning's own family?) Wouldn't that be the right thing to do, for the sake of 'human decency'? No, probably not. And this is why our policies are not governed by doing what subjects want (and why we request that people not write about themselves). -- tariqabjotu 18:26, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There is a very real difference between "what subjects want" and "what will cause distress". I suspect that you are not transgendered, and I invite you to do some reading about the subject: it would make this talk page a lot easier for you to understand. Bob's argument ("other people will cause distress, so wikipedia should not worry about whether it causes distress") holds no water (and neither does their bald assertion that Manning will be more distressed by prison than being forced to present as male). 7daysahead (talk) 18:57, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Don't patronize me or insult my intelligence. I need not be transgendered nor read whatever advocacy materials you want me to read for my comment to be relevant. You mentioned those logs as reason to have the article at Chelsea Manning, and I pointed out that what Manning actually wants is for pictures as a boy excised from media attention. We are not compelled to give into that demand, however you choose to describe it. -- tariqabjotu 19:07, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Tarigabjotu, this is a red herring -- nobody is arguing for removal of the photo on the basis of the chat logs. The photo is a historical document of how Manning lived and represented herself at a particular moment in time, and assuming it's presented as such personally I don't see any issue with it. What's under discussion here is how Wikipedia should frame and represent Manning *today*, in the present tense --- that's why the article title, pronouns and first name matter. The chatlogs are simply evidence that Manning will experience distress if she is misgendered publicly, after having made it clear she is female.
I also reject Bob K31416's argument above, that any distress Wikipedia causes Manning doesn't matter because she might not see the article, and/or the pain of prison will be worse. An argument that hinges on Wikipedia being irrelevant or unimportant is doomed out the gate. And, from an ethical standpoint, any pain we risk causing Manning needs to be considered independently of pain caused to her by others. Sue Gardner (talk) 19:49, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
For reference, here's my original remark that Sue Gardner is commenting on, "As far as the effect on Manning, Wikipedia's title is negligible if it is based on what the prevalent name used in the sources are. There's much more chance that in prison Manning will be seeing newspapers, etc, instead of this Wikipedia article. And if Manning does see this article in prison, it is only one article compared to the many articles or TV programs in the media. Manning's real distress will be from being imprisoned for at least 7 years." --Bob K31416 (talk) 01:42, 26 August 2013 (UTC) [reply]
I'm having a hard time understanding how this is a "red herring". 7daysahead said s/he believes the article should be at Chelsea Manning because the previous name would cause the subject distress, as evidenced by the chat logs. Full stop, no further detail. That may not be your argument, or the arguments of most of those supporting the name Chelsea Manning, but it was 7daysahead's, and that is who I was responding to. I am pointing out that the chat logs actually refer to pictures as a boy or a man, not seeing the name "Bradley Manning". And yet, as you said, of course, no one has suggested removing those types of pictures. If 7daysahead is going to take this approach, he's going to have to explain why s/he feels human decency is needed for the article name, but why it's not (and has not been, and likely will not ever be) afforded for other aspects. As you can see from the logs, to Manning, those photos are not "historical documents", but reminders of a life Manning doesn't want to be presented, much like -- presumably -- the name Bradley Manning. -- tariqabjotu 23:31, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
At the moment no one is suggesting that we remove those pictures, and that is not this conversation. The article title is more likely to cause distress than the photographs on display. This is a red herring. (Briefly, I would support updating the article if more up-to-date photographs were to become available.) 7daysahead (talk) 08:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly Support: Bradley Manning is a traitor and convicted felon. He will be spending the majority of his (redacted) life at Fort Leavenworth, which for those of you who don't know, is hell on earth where they send (redacted) like Manning to make big rocks into little rocks all damn day long. Why are we wasting time and making a mockery of this article by trying to 'comfort' Bradley Manning or 'make this transition easier on him?' Where he's going, the last worry he'll have is the pronouns they use to address him. And this is just beside all of the basic logic and reasoning that says he is a male, has always been a male, and likely always will continue to be a male and the WP has just bought into one of the lamest PR stunts in recent memory. Has everybody opposed to this moved forgotten that he is a criminal??? IFreedom1212 (talk) 20:00, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly Oppose: Transgendered persons ought to be referred to by their preferred name and gender pronouns. To do otherwise is transphobic. This is in keeping with Wikipedia's MOS:IDENTITY policy for how transgendered persons are to be identified on this wiki. And most news organizations and reliable sources have already started calling Chelsea Manning by her new name. Most of the arguments in support of moving back to Bradley Manning, such as claiming there aren't reliable sources to back up the name change, are red herrings. --Yetisyny (talk) 20:20, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - To the military he's Bradley Manning. To common usage he's Bradley Manning. To the prison system...well that'll be something to see. This article title should absolutely be at Bradley Manning. In the first line of the lead, assuming the gov't recognizes a legally changed name, that's where one would place Chelsea E. Manning. Nowhere else. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:56, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I have already expressed my support above, but I have noticed that a lot of people here are citing BLP as a reason for opposing the move back to Bradley. BLP basically states that the article can't have anything negative that is unsourced. There are a lot of sources that still refer to Manning by the first name Bradley, so even if you do consider using Manning's legal name to be a negative statement (which is really a stretch even without sources backing it up), BLP would still not apply here because there are many sources that still use the name. --PiMaster3 talk 22:07, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I oppose reverting to the "Bradley" name Chelsea was very clear of her intentions and even stated, and was printed in leading newspapers and on national television, "I hope that you will support me in this transition. I also request that, starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun (except in official mail to the confinement facility)." As she is a living person Wikipedia must respect her wishes. Shezthemann (talk) 08:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Note: Comment posted by User:Guerillero as requested on his talk page; requesting editor, User:Shezthemann, has very few edits, all at User talk:Guerillero, and all relating to this article. bd2412 T 03:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

26 August 2013 (UTC)

Extended content
  • Comment: As others have noted, the move to Chelsea was premature and should have awaited fuller use of that name in reliable sources (see WP:COMMONNAME). A parenthetical statement in the lede about her preferred name would have sufficed until then. On these procedural grounds I support returning the article to Bradley, but by the time this discussion is closed, I expect the preponderance of sources using "Chelsea" will make this point moot. Subsidiary comment: The personal opinion of many here is to accept her self-identification out of human decency, because gender is more complicated than genitals and chromosomes. But, for the sake of Wikipedia, those opinions are academic and immaterial: we generally have to go by what the aggregated sources say, not by what's right. --Rae (Talk | Contribs) 05:51, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with everything you've said there, but my sense of inertia prefers not to do a temporary move that I reasonably expect will need to be undone shortly, even to revert a premature move. It is unpleasant to "reward" people for having a hair trigger on the Move button, but when we've acknowledged they probably will be right soon enough, might as well let them get away with it. Wnt (talk) 22:15, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. As I've already noted in other comments, making acceptance of a transgender person's chosen name conditional on her compliance with further conditions (complete the legal process, have the surgery, etc.) is not acceptable — for starters that's a higher burden of proof than we place on any other celebrity who happens to change their name, and even more importantly both her legal records and her medical records are covered by privacy laws and thus her completion of those tasks will never be properly verifiable. (What's our test going to be? She can't be "Chelsea" until she personally uploads a photograph of her groin to Commons to prove that she doesn't have a penis anymore? That's ridiculous and invasive, obviously, but what other evidence can we possibly ask for if "have the surgery first" is our standard?)
Furthermore, no other type of person on Wikipedia is subject to any requirement that we must necessarily lock the article into their legal birth name, regardless of any other titling consideration — and thus imposing that as a unique rule that is binding only on transgender people is a clearcut act of transphobia.
COMMONNAME is also not a compelling argument, because that rule explicitly states, right in its own text, that there are sometimes legitimate reasons to privilege another name over one that's technically more common — so the question becomes, why should a transgender person not be one of those cases? And COMMONNAME also explicitly says that sources published after a name change count for more than those published before — so leaving aside for the moment the fact that there's already been a documentable shift, it still needs to be asked what volume of new sourcing has to be provided before people will be satisfied that the balance has finally tipped over to Chelsea instead of Bradley? Is it 100 articles? 1,000? 10,000? What's the number? Or is it going to be, my real suspicion, a moving target which always consists of "some unspecified number of additional sources beyond what we have now"?
And if the argument is based on "Chelsea" being a violation of POVNAMING, then you have to face the reality that "Bradley" also poses just as much of a POVNAMING issue — because it also represents a POV assertion about the validity of her identity change. So if there's no wholly NPOV naming option available, then in a BLP you've got to err on the side of the subject's dignity. As I've said elsewhere, the only appropriate, WP:BLP-compliant way to write about a transgender person is to accept her chosen name and gender identity. BLP requires us to write our articles with sensitivity, and paying mind to the possibility of harm to living subjects. While it's true that media outlets vary in how well they adhere to these principles, virtually every media style guide of any reputability whatsover (AP, Canadian Press, GLAAD, etc.) advises that a transgender person's chosen name and gender identity must be respected without condition — doing otherwise is inherently causing harm to the subject, and violating WP:NPOV by casting judgement on the validity of her gender identity. The fact that a few readers might be a little bit confused, furthermore, is covered by the fact that "Bradley" is still in place as a redirect — so people are not going to fail to get here because they typed the wrong name into the search bar, and given the volume of media coverage her announcement has been getting I sincerely doubt that there are five people left in the Western world who are going to be surprised.
And furthermore, our WP:NPOV rules themselves require us to evaluate the POV of the sources, and to deprecate sources that are being inappropriately biased or non-neutral in their presentation of the story. We do not, for example, cite stuff to sources that use prejudicial terms like "faggot" or "n-word". And any outside source that fails to use Chelsea instead of Bradley, once she's announced that her preferred name is Chelsea, is itself committing a POV act — the very act of discounting her stated name is a POV statement in and of itself — which means that if we're really serious about following NPOV properly, we have to accept that as of August 22, 2013, any source that still uses "Bradley" instead of "Chelsea" is, by definition, not appropriately neutral enough to even be considered at all. There is only one WP:NPOV way to write about a transgender person, and that is by her preferred name and gender identity — any source that still calls her "Bradley" once she's announced that her name is Chelsea is committing a biased, non-NPOV act. No matter what their reasoning is — deliberate transphobia, unintentional ignorance of the correct practice, simple laziness, whatever — the doing of it is an act of anti-transgender bias. And we simply cannot make it Wikipedia policy that we deprecate clearly biased sources in every case except when the bias is an anti-transgender one.
So simply put, for all of those reasons I have to take the position that the article's proper and correct title is Chelsea. Bearcat (talk) 08:21, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Who decided what "the correct practice" is, why do they have authority, when did they do it? People keep implying that there was this big meeting and we all decided what "the correct practice" is, I think I missed that meeting, does someone have the minutes? CombatWombat42 (talk) 18:57, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You don't get a say in what is or isn't correct practice in writing about any identity community in which you do not have a direct personal stake. There was no obligation for "we all" to have been part of the decision; in exactly the same way as is true for racial and ethnic groups, LGBT people, and their doctors and therapists and other people with a direct stake in the issue, get to make that decision unilaterally. You're certainly not obliged to follow if you don't want to — but you don't get a right to dictate that your preferences override those of the affected parties, or to decree that nobody else is allowed to call you out on your decision, or to question what is or isn't correct practice. You certainly have a right to follow either correct or incorrect practice in your own life — but you don't get consultation rights on which practice is the correct one. Bearcat (talk) 19:07, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, when did all people with a direct stake have a meeting and where are the minutes? How do you know I don't have a stake?CombatWombat42 (talk) 19:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
GLAAD's Media Reference Guide; AP Style Guide; any acceptably WP:NPOV book at all on transgender issues. And incidentally, the process of establishing consensus on matters like this does not require that every single transgender person personally attended a meeting with posted minutes and a unanimous vote at the end — it's allowed to happen through the exact same sort of social processes (literature, one-on-one conversations, political activism, appeals to basic human decency, etc.) that contribute to the evolution of any other social or cultural convention. And as for how I know that you don't have a personal stake in the issue, you wouldn't be taking the positions you're taking if you did. Bearcat (talk) 19:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
1. Does GLAAD represent all people that have a stake? I was not informed. 2. AP does not meet your defention of "having a stake" so why do you refrence them? 3. What position have I taken? 4. If I have taken a postion why is it impossible to have that position and have a stake? CombatWombat42 (talk) 19:28, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
1. Yep. 2. AP reflects the established practice, and is thus acceptable for consultation purposes. 3. & 4. Agreeing that it's ever appropriate to give a transgender person's birth name precedence over their chosen one, or to disregard their own stated gender identity, are not positions which a transgender person would ever typically take. I suppose it's theoretically possible that there might be a few transgender people out there who do disagree, but that's implausible enough to belong in the "I'll believe it when I see it" category — and even if such people did exist, the established consensus of most transgender people would still prevail over the opinions of one or two fringe dissenters. Bearcat (talk) 19:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
1. We both know you are incorrect, but you obviously don't want to argue. (Fair, but I'm going to assume it's because you realized that I was going to be right and you wanted to head the off at the pass) 2. Resonable point, but still against your argument. 3. When have I ever "Agreeing that it's ever appropriate to give a transgender person's birth name"? 4. So "minority"/"fringe" oppinions don't count? CombatWombat42 (talk) 20:04, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
1. GLAAD most certainly is the final authority on what is or isn't discriminatory or biased language when writing about LGBT topics. They don't have to be the universal representative of all LGBT people on all possible LGBT issues whatsoever — but they are the Supreme Court on this. 2. Nope, not against my argument. People outside the identity community are allowed to be cited as authorities on what the consensus is, if they are correctly following it — as an outside party, the only thing they're not allowed to do is override it with their own alternative rules while still being accorded equal weight. 3. You've been arguing for the move back to the old name; that, by definition, is giving her old name precedence over her current one. 4. When it comes to the question of what Wikipedia should or should not reflect, if they can't be well-sourced as significant minority opinions that have a weight of credibility behind them then indeed, no, they don't count. Bearcat (talk) 20:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, you are clearly so incapible of seeing your own logical fallicies that it is no longer interesting to try to get you to understand that there is no consensus on this topic and for you to keep claming that there is is driving people away from your arument. We need to have a rational discussion about this topic without either side making appeals to authority or personal attacks. I really am on the fence about the issue, but the fastest way to drive me to one side is for the other side to falsely claim that the matter has already been decided in their favor. CombatWombat42 (talk) 20:25, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, no logical fallacies at all. I've acknowledged all along that not everybody in the world actually follows the correct practice in writing about transgender issues — but that fact does not mean that there isn't an objectively correct practice. When writing about any identity community (race, ethnicity, sexuality, etc.) which is subject to bias and misrepresentation concerns, the correct practice is always to follow that community's own internal consensus about what does or doesn't constitute biased language about them. This is not some special privilege that we extend exclusively to transgender people — it's the standard practice that should be followed for absolutely any identity group (racial, sexual, ethnic, gender, whatever) that is known to be subject to biased or discriminatory language and unfair media misrepresentation.
You certainly have the freedom to disregard that practice and continue to use derogatory or biased language if you wish — but you do not get to deny the fact that there is a correct practice, which is supported by a valid, properly documented consensus of the only people who actually get to have any say in the matter of what is or isn't correct practice, and you don't get to claim immunity from other people calling you out on your language choices. But if you want to be perceived as fair and respectful and polite and unbiased, then there's really no other way besides accepting that the group being written about gets to be the arbiter of what constitutes unfair or hurtful or discriminatory language about them. Bearcat (talk) 20:40, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"there is a correct practice" No way. There is no "correct" or "incorrect" when it comes to journalism. There are no binding standards; there are no punishments for breaking with the rules; there is no enforcement. In short these expectations are not rules. They are opinions. It's analogous to the difference between Wikipedia essays and policies; some may strongly support an essay but we ultimately follow policy. CaseyPenk (talk) 21:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes way. Journalistic outlets certainly retain the freedom to be incorrect about it if they choose to be, but there is an objectively correct way to write about an identity community (racial, sexual, ethnic, whatever) that is known to be subject to hurtful, discriminatory or biased coverage — and that way is to respect what those communities tell you about what constitutes hurtful, discriminatory or biased coverage of them. You can still disregard it if you really want to, but you are not being WP:NPOV if you do. Bearcat (talk) 21:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Please tell me where WP:NPOV states that we must follow the style guidelines laid out by minority communities. Let's not refer vaguely to very tightly-worded Wikipedia policies; please be specific. CaseyPenk (talk) 21:23, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NPOV unequivocally prohibits us from using discriminatory or biased language. So since minority communities are themselves the only acceptable authority on what constitutes discriminatory or biased language about them, who else would you propose that we even listen to? Bearcat (talk) 21:44, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I certainly see where you're coming from and I personally agree that we should follow the standards set by the groups and the people themselves. Just as we should follow Chelsea's pronoun preference we should theoretically follow GLAAD's guidelines when referring to LGBT people. However that is my personal belief and I would not foist it upon Wikipedia. Others who have deeply-held personal beliefs think theirs are equally valid. Hate groups, for instance, may feel very strongly that we should do the exact opposite of GLAAD. What I'm saying is that we fundamentally disagree about who has authority on media coverage; you think pro-LGBT groups do, while I think anti-LGBT groups / LGBT-neutral groups also have authority. WP:RS requires us to weigh the options. If there comes a time when journalistic organizations are united in referring to LGBT people in a truly sensitive way, we can follow their lead. But that time has not yet arrived. CaseyPenk (talk) 22:00, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we can't write about the existence of anti-LGBT or racist or anti-trans sentiment; as much as I may hate those things, they do exist and are legitimately notable topics. But what we can't do is write that Metta World Peace and Sean Combs are "n-words", or Elton John is a "filthy faggot", or Ellen DeGeneres is a "f*cking dyke", or "Bradley" Manning is a "man who thinks he's a woman", and on and so forth, just because some people might prefer to see them described that way instead of with neutral terminology. We can talk about the existence of anti-LGBT or racist or anti-trans beliefs in the appropriate articles; we just aren't allowed to use anti-LGBT or racist or transphobic terminology as objective descriptors in our articles about those groups or individual people who belong to them. That's all I'm saying. Bearcat (talk) 22:25, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In terms of our personal views we're so very close. But I just don't view GLAAD as being the only source of note, as much as I support what they're doing. CaseyPenk (talk) 22:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Did you just compare titling the article Bradley Manning to calling black people the n-word? Or gay people faggots? Unbelievable. -- tariqabjotu 22:50, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It is comparable, because it is discriminatory to discount a transgender person's chosen name. And in case you aren't already aware of this, I am a gay man — so I most certainly do have authority to speak on whether a point of language usage is or isn't comparable to calling me a faggot. Bearcat (talk) 22:56, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I was aware of that, as it's on your userpage. And it may lead people to wonder whether your advocacy efforts, and your inability to see how misguided your concept of neutrality is as it applies here, might be motivated by your sexual orientation. But I didn't bring that up because your sexual orientation shouldn't be a reason for people to diminish your views, nor should it be a reason -- as you have done -- to prop them up. Likewise, I will not take the easy route by matching your tenuous appeal to authority with one of my own based on my race, sexual orientation, religion, or membership in any other group that I have chosen to not broadcast loudly on my userpage but you apparently have chosen to guess for convenience. -- tariqabjotu 23:33, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Mmmmm, yeah. People are actually trying to use her, right on this very page, as a platform for waging war on the very concept that the recognized medical condition of gender dysphoria even exists, and I get the rap for "advocacy efforts" for arguing against biased and discriminatory and non-NPOV language? That's really kind of rich. Bearcat (talk) 00:28, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Um, everyone else? Neutrality means considering the opinions of all groups and weighing them accordingly, not listening to just one group and ignoring everyone else because they don't suit your point of view. That's basically the definition of neutrality. There are reliable sources (including the AP, which you claimed immediately started using Chelsea) that continue to use the name "Bradley Manning", and you seem intent on diminishing them to "wrong". -- tariqabjotu 22:14, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I said that AP's style guide states what the proper practice is; the fact that not every AP publication is actually following it yet does not negate the fact of what the style guide says. And neutrality means that we also have to take the POVness or non-POVness of the sources themselves into account: we do not accord equal weight to all possible sources, but in fact routinely deprecate sources that can be demonstrated to be portraying the story in a biased or inaccurate way. Bearcat (talk) 22:25, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I covered that; as I said, considering the opinions of all groups and weighing them accordingly.As noted below, the New York Times, the Independent, the BBC, and Reuters have used the name Bradley Manning. Are they also POV sources? And I'm struggling to find the non-POV sources (The Huffington Post? No. Salon? No.) that have switched over to Chelsea Manning. -- tariqabjotu 22:50, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Even a generally reliable source can still cover a particular story in a way that precludes that specific article from being cited in an NPOV encyclopedia. You have to review the potential bias of every individual story; a broad sweeping judgment based solely on who's publishing it is not sufficient. Bearcat (talk) 23:04, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Your remarks are beginning to suggest that you're motivated by advocating for minority groups, rather than adhering to our policies. While advocating for minority groups may be admirable, Wikipedia is not supposed to be used for that purpose. -- tariqabjotu 21:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Er, no. People on this page have denied the proven medical fact that gender dysphoria even exists at all — that's an advocacy position. Arguing that her status as a convicted criminal should invalidate her right to even receive medical treatment for her condition at all is an advocacy position. Respecting people's right not to be subject to hurtful or discriminatory or biased language is a simple human dignity position, not an advocacy one. Bearcat (talk) 21:44, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that others might be using Wikipedia for advocacy doesn't mean you aren't. You argued that minority groups should be the arbiter of what is hurtful, discriminatory, and biased. That you cited our neutral point-of-view policy in the next sentence shows your lack of self-awareness. -- tariqabjotu 22:14, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. Using hurtful, discriminatory and biased language is an NPOV violation. Bearcat (talk) 22:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Again, "hurtful, discriminatory and biased" are utterly subjective. What's hurtful today to a certain group may be acceptable to another; what's hurtful today may not be so tomorrow. CaseyPenk (talk) 22:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. Bearcat, if your idea of neutrality decided by one group were really true, discussions like this one would have ended differently. The rules shouldn't change because the group is this one. -- tariqabjotu 22:50, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm talking about points of language usage in a WP:BLP about an individual member of an oppressed identity community. I'm not an expert in, and have no opinion on, how the Muhammad cartoons controversy should or shouldn't have been handled — but they're not the same thing as the matter at hand. Bearcat (talk) 23:10, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support moving the article name back to Bradley Manning for now. In essence it's been decided that an established policy WP:COMMONNAME should be overruled and that anyone who wants to abide by the established policy is somehow prejudiced towards the person. Either the clearly established policy should be adhered to or it should be changed (along with WP:NPOV) to reflect the new political reality. Editors should be castigated for their adherence or otherwise to Wikipedia policy, not for their (presumed) views, unless Wikipedia starts censoring views as policy. My suspicion is that the references to Bradley Manning will become rarer and this will simply default to Chelsea, but I am uneasy about the precedent of break the rules if it matches the political views of the majority of admins that is being set here. JASpencer (talk) 09:37, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
COMMONNAME is not being overrruled; COMMONNAME itself states that there are valid reasons to choose a technically less "common" name sometimes. It explicitly allows for exceptions right in its very own definition of itself, and it is not "violating policy" to treat a situation as an exception to a policy that has room for exceptions written right into the policy itself. As well, COMMONNAME explicitly says that when an article topic changes their name, any decision about which name to use has to give more weight to post-name change sources than it does to pre-name ones — and that shift is already happening in the sources. (And as I've said before, calling a transgender person by anything other than her publicly stated preferred name is, in and of itself, an act of anti-transgender prejudice. You may not have deliberately prejudiced reasons for doing so, which is why I've always taken the utmost care in this discussion to respect the difference between labelling the argument and labelling the person, but the act of not respecting a transgender person's public statement of her name is a prejudiced thing to do.) Bearcat (talk) 16:42, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Torquemama007, as best as I can tell yours was a sarcastic remark. Please correct me if that is not the case. CaseyPenk (talk) 21:25, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sarcastic? No, it was a joke. You know...Peyton...Manning. Comment withdrawn. THis is a silly argument. Bradley can be a girls name and Chelsea can be a boys name and anyone looking for this article today will be looking for Bradley, and in a year probably for Chelsea. Torquemama007 (talk) 18:27, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I am not as heavily swayed by the argument that we should wait for SRS or some kind of 'legal name change.' I do understand the draw; they provide a single, verifiable way to determine a persons gender. They are also arbitrary, unverifiable, and ultimately irrelevant (we are not tied to the United States government, so why do we care so much what they think?)
I am, however, swayed by the "Golden Retriever Problem"- if Manning said "I'm a golden retriever, and my name is Rover", would we accept that? Of course not. It would be an inappropriate value judgement to say in this case that Manning has such definite control over his name, yet in other cases ignore obviously spurious 'name changes' - without violating NPOV, how could we make a judgement?
(Breaking in the middle because your post is extremely long). Could I ask you to read the very short essay Wikipedia:Gender_identity? It answers your question. Briefly, there is no accepted medical condition which leads people to identify as dogs, the only treatment for which has been consistently shown to allow that person to live as a dog. Your argument has been given several times on this talk page. 7daysahead (talk) 15:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The answer at the essay you provided was "Coming out as trans can not be dismissed as an arbitrary or irrational decision. It is a deeply personal decision recognized and supported by mental health professionals."
I feel the answer is hand-waving. It is an appeal to authority; that authority may be qualified to diagnose Manning with GID (or whatever, I think the name of the disorder may have changed.) but that authority does not necessarily carry over into how we otherwise present Manning. To wit, a doctor could advise Manning to use to a feminine name, but that does not in and of itself rename Manning. Manning is only renamed to the extent that the new name is recognized at large. I do not feel the essay addresses this concern. OSborn arfcontribs. 16:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Also: what counts as "obviously spurious"? Harpo Marx? Screaming Lord Sutch? Nate Dogg, Bow Wow, or Snoop Dogg? "Chelsea Manning" seems pretty sober and sensible by comparison. --GenericBob (talk) 01:16, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The difference is those names have been generally accepted by reliable secondary sources, but the name "Chelsea Manning" has not been accepted in the same way. OSborn arfcontribs. 01:45, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The claim that there would be some sort of BLP violation or harassment seems ridiculous. If we're harassing, then what are the news organizations (such as, I understand, AP) doing? As to BLP, the three main issues are NPOV, V, and OR. I do not see NPOV as being an issue considering the continued use of the name "Bradley" by many news organizations. As to Verifiability, there is no question there. As for OR, it seems to me the "Chelsea" supports could be conducting their own Original Research by synthesizing that the subject of the article's name is Chelsea, without that being supported first by reliable sources. The rest of BLP seems to deal with the privacy of the subject, but that is not relevant here because the name "Bradley" has already all over the news.
The title "Chelsea Manning" is (potentially) confusing to many readers. Readers not familiar with the case will be surprised to find an article named "Chelsea..." when they typed in "Bradley..." I suspect they could even navigate away from the page, if they know the subject to be male, yet the article is, at a first glance, about a woman.
To reply to Bearcat, above, if it is POVNAMING in either case, I find it to be a legitimate option to simply defer to reliable sources. I have not yet seen a meaningful analysis of how different reliable sources handle this issue. I do not believe we are impacting the tone of the article or dignity of the subject. The simple truth is that Manning has not used the name Chelsea at all (AFAIK) until very recently. As to gender identity, if Manning has been consistently identified as male by all secondary coverage until now, how are we creating an 'unduly negative' article by reporting that? In addition, my understanding is that the AP has not transitioned to using the Chelsea name.
I think I read [somewhere] an editor claiming that "Bradley..." would hurt the '[transgender] cause' which is, I feel, a very poor argument in this context.
I think Rae, above, makes a good if unfortunate point.
OSborn arfcontribs. 14:30, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As I explain here, we should use information from reliable sources at the right level. Normally the choice of that level doesn't matter; a pile of molecules that happens to be a Zebra won't be interpreted as an Elephant by someone else. In this case the problem is that the primary information about Manning's gender identity issues leads to a different conclusion about her gender when we use our policies compared to some newspapers. Count Iblis (talk) 14:55, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"Base articles on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." (WP:SOURCES) indicates to me that we should prefer secondary sources over primary sources, in general. (I find our guideline at MOS:IDENTITY problematic, as a 'special process' for transgender, and only transgender persons.)
Although I may not entirely understand what your argument is; we don't really have "policies" on this sort of thing. Our policies, in my experience, have been to neutrally present available, reliable information. Any guideline on content is simply a summary of how to do so. I think the essay WP:TRUTH also supports my argument. OSborn arfcontribs. 15:12, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but the issue with primary/secondary sources has more to do with wanting to have a solid review of the primary facts that reflects current scientific consensus about the topic. But in general, you have some source and different levels of information exists in the same source. E.g. in case of a crime, you can have many reliable sources that agree with each other on the factual issues, but they differ on whether or not to call the perpetrator of the crimes a criminal. We can then easily bypass this problem by focussing on the facts on which there is then no diagreement about from these reliable sources and use our own BLP policies to decide whether or not the responsible person should be called a criminal or not. Saying that "X is a criminal" is higher level information than saying that "X has commited acts Y and Z". Our policies may e.g. compel us to refer to X as a "suspect", even if most sources use "criminal". Count Iblis (talk) 15:25, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify your analogy, if "X has committed acts Y and Z." (and Y and Z are criminal acts) then by definition "X is a criminal," not "X is a suspect." "X is a suspect" if "X has been accused of committing acts Y and Z."
My understanding is that the situation you are referring to would be a BLP violation partly because it could expose the WMF to litigation. (From what I understand.) In this case, there's no judgement call of "Manning is a criminal." AFAIK IANAL this isn't a situation where Manning could litigate (not that we should only do things under threat of litigation...) and so isn't quite the same in that regard.
Anyways, we would never make-up a term for someone, we would only use verifiable information. Clearly, we don't go for the most extreme information; we avoid being inflammatory. This is the other part of not calling someone a criminal. But I don't really see the 'presumption of innocence' factor as leading us to use the newer name. I think the "Golden Retriever Problem" I mentioned above explains this. The big question I have is "why do we not extend skepticism to Manning's own statement?" OSborn arfcontribs. 15:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There is, as has already been pointed out above, no such thing as the "Golden Retriever Problem" when it comes to transgender issues. Gender dysphoria is a real, recognized medical condition, which has substantial medical research behind it to confirm that transgender people really do have physical brain structures that are consistent with the target gender rather than the one that would be consistent with the kind of sexual organs they have down below — and the only known treatment for that condition is for the person to undertake some form of transition into living as the target gender. You don't have to understand how it could be medically possible for that to happen — but it is.
There is, however, no recognized medical condition in which it's possible for a human being of any gender to actually have a dog's brain inside a human body — there are certainly disorders in which it's possible for someone to think they're a dog, I won't deny that, but there are no known medical conditions in which it's possible for that belief to turn out to be true, or for which the only treatment that even exists at all is for the person to actually switch over to living as a dog.
So until medical science finds a a real medical disorder which lifts "I'm a golden retriever inside" out of the realm of psychotic delusions and into the realm of things that could actually be true, the "Golden Retriever Problem" is not a valid analogue to gender dysphoria. Bearcat (talk) 16:22, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the "Golden Retriever Problem" is not the best argument to make here, but on the other hand I think that we still do not have to change the article title. Wikipedia has not always respected the wishes of the subject with respect to their identity. We have declined to move Jay-Z to Jay Z, for example. Edge3 (talk) 00:08, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really see how taking or not taking a hyphen out of a name that's still fundamentally the same otherwise really tells us anything either way about how to handle a person who comes out as transgender; as I've pointed out elsewhere, there are numerous other articles where we did respect the subject's wishes by moving the article right away upon a name change announcement — and that's the standard that's always been considered the precedent for transgender people. Bearcat (talk) 01:10, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We also have not moved Snoop Dogg to Snoop Lion. Edge3 (talk) 02:31, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) I bring up the "golden retriever problem" as an analogy for someone simply declaring their name to be something different. I'd like to clarify, as I think it may be misunderstood, that I am not drawing an analogy with regards to trangenderism per se. The point of the analogy is that the subject has simply announced a change in name and that change in name has not been generally accepted. I realize now this may have been a distracting analogy.
As I answered above, that Manning has been advised to change his name does not seem specifically relevant. We summarize reliable sources, and my understanding is that reliable sources have not transitioned to "Chelsea" in a way as to trigger such a change. OSborn arfcontribs. 01:45, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:COMMONNAME. I respect the arguments in opposition, but the move was premature, the subject of the article is still most widely known as Bradley, and Chelsea is not yet prdominant in new reporting. I support the use of Chelsea/she, etc. within the body of the article.Skyraider (talk) 16:55, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support this individual is morphologically, chromosomally, and most important legally still male. of particular note is that at the time of his enlistment and service, from which springs his entire notability and notoriety, he was male. until 8/22, 100% of the news coverage was of 'bradley' manning. while i am a liberal on the issue of gender politics, this seems to me an unnecessarily pov sop to the lbgt community, and a kowtowing to political correctness.Toyokuni3 (talk) 19:05, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Legal status is irrelevant to the question of what a person's gender identity is or isn't, and you are making an unverifiable assumption about her genetic karyotype. There are real, documented conditions within the transgender spectrum in which a person can have male sex organs while actually being chromosomally female — so unless you have Manning's DNA tests in your personal possession you have no way of verifiably knowing whether she's chromosomally XX or XY. Bearcat (talk) 19:18, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose In danger of appearing to be WP:WL, I think a certain amount of the legal dispassion needs to be applied to this argumentation. WP:BLP is a broad policy, one which relies on MOS:IDENTITY in order to interpret properly. The most specific direction in this case comes from MOS:IDENTITY and we have discussed it ad infinitum here. The bottom line becomes that "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns ..., pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life." There is no clearer statement of direction available to us in the style guides or the policies. To refer to any person who has expressed a different self-identification as their birth gender reflects an inherent bias against their choice, regardless of the intent used when crafting said reference. Because of this fact, there is no clear position that reflects WP:NPOV, and as such, WP:BLP dictates that we follow the course charted in MOS:IDENTITY and use the proper nouns, gendered pronouns, and possessive adjectives that respect the choice of that individual.
Furthermore, some people have questioned the change on WP:V violations, attempting to steer the conversation in their favor. I believe this argument to be specious in the extreme. WP:BLP is explicit about acceptable sources and one of those is documented in WP:SELFPUB. Chelsea Manning's declaration about her gender self-identification satisfies completely and utterly the requirements of WP:SELFPUB and, as a consequence of this fact, WP:V.
When you strip the emotion from the conversation and look at it from a purely facts-based perspective, the decision to move the page to Chelsea Manning and replace the male-gendered pronouns with their female-gendered equivalents was not only correct, but needed to be accomplished rapidly in order to satisfy the Damoclean Sword of WP:BLP. My 2c. QuackCD (talk) 20:12, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You obviously didn't read WP:SELFPUB very carefully. Claiming to be a different sex is a pretty clear example of an "exceptional claim". Thus, Manning's statement may be taken as evidence that Manning made a statement, but that in no way compels the article to agree that the statement is true and always has been. – Smyth\talk 13:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

27 August 2013 (UTC)

Extended content
  • Oppose I was going to support on the basis of WP:COMMONNAME and the fact that we follow where reliable sources go, and we should follow rather than lead on issues such as this. However, when looking for sources to back me up, I came across this very recent addition which I think alters the balance. If the NYT and AP are doing so, we should follow suit. Sailsbystars (talk) 01:28, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, at least Sailsbystars is offering a reasoning that is more deferential to reliable sources than other "oppose" positions. Still, the NYT and AP are only two RSs (albeit fairly important ones). I think this more evidence that we really ought to adopt "Chelsea" in 1-6 months times when more RSs have the transition that Sails notes. NickCT (talk) 02:17, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Perhaps you mean, "in 1-6 days" when the AP feed affects hundreds or thousands of spinoff related sources, such as numerous small-town newspapers, TV or radio stations. Just follow the instant rename of "Kate Middleton" as "Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge" and reset policies so that WP does not give preferential treatment only to names of royalty or nobility of some nations. -Wikid77 13:31, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support He's still got the chromosomes, package and legal name of a guy and no ammount of critical queer/feminist/gender analysis will get around those three simple truths. WeldNeck (talk) 02:03, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Re. chromosomes: citation needed, and you might want to read this article for some background on why your assumption is unsafe. --GenericBob (talk) 12:02, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Citation needed on chromosomes, as Genericbob points out. But it is needed too on the "package", by which I presume that WeldNeck means genitalia. Even if Weldneck had personal evidence of the state of Mannin's "package", it would be WP:OR, so we need reliable sources. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:24, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
But that would make a lot of wikipedias that haven't - like Norwegian. It's not really much of an argument. The NYT argument is stronger, and shows that some sources are making this late shift, but by no means all. StAnselm (talk) 05:45, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - This whole mess is appalling, the move, the following discussion, even quite a few !votes on display here. I oppose the move based on the policy arguments regarding MOS:IDENTITY and BLP, as well as Sailsbystars' note above; given the blatant politicalization of this issue, moving forward with the style the NYT and AP are going with seems like the safest option, though I'm sure even that can be argued. More importantly, retaining the current title is the only way forward that doesn't create more drama. The community needs to move forward by creating clear guidelines for situations like these, not by move warring en masse. Archaeo (talk) 05:39, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move back to Bradley Manning. Manning is only notable for his crimes. Manning's crimes were committed under the name of "Bradley Manning". Manning was tried and convicted under the name "Bradley Manning". Some criminals adopt new names after leaving prison but we do not rewrite history to show their new name. --Toddy1 (talk) 07:52, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support reverting back to Bradley Manning. The individual who was convicted in court is Bradley Manning. Since Wikipedia articles are supposed to be factual, it's a travesty that anyone thinks it justifiable to jump the gun and make declarations about the individual that are not truthful. At the point that he has his name legally changed, then there should definitely be an article about Chelsea Manning; not beforehand. And he should be referred to in the male pronoun until such time that he is legally reassigned as transgender or female. Despite the opposition's conjecture, the referendum for correctly naming B. Manning's article has nothing to do with politics. This is purely in the spirit of what Wikipedia is intended for: up-to-date, factual information. XMattingly (talk) 08:32, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment — It may be worthwhile to consider whether Manning is more notable as Bradley or Chelsea. --Bob K31416 (talk) 10:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Having read through the article and looked through the discussion after being alerted to it by WP:ANI, I would have say I broadly agree with those who have expressed the view that, in its current form, the article is confusing to readers. I agree that it is confusing/awkward/contrived to write of Manning that e.g. "she was promoted in 2009" (paraphrased from Chelsea_Manning#Move_to_Fort_Drum.2C_deployment_to_Iraq). Since the majority of the actions that made Manning notable occurred before Manning expressed a desire to be called Chelsea, rewriting the whole biography to refer to Manning as a female IMO goes against WP:BALASPS. I therefore support those like User:Daffydavid (Talk:Chelsea_Manning#25_August_2013_.28UTC.29) who call for a move back to Bradley Manning and a restriction of female pronouns and discussion of Manning's gender identity to one subsection. It Is Me Here t / c 10:56, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move back to Bradley Manning on procedural grounds. Most editors are arguing about whether WP:IDENTITY or WP:COMMONNAME is more important, or whether they were followed. But what obviously was not followed was the principle of consensus – one of Wikipedia's core policies which takes priority over any guideline in the Manual of Style. This is a controversial issue, it was always going to be a controversial issue, and it was unacceptable to move and re-write the article without a proper discussion. It is now clear that, if such a discussion had been held before the initial move, consensus would not have been obtained. Therefore, the page should be reverted to the state it was in before this dispute broke out, and all editors should refrain from making disruptive changes without consensus. – Smyth\talk 12:55, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Consensus is restricted by policies/guidelines: The loophole in seeking wp:consensus is that a local consensus, among 400 people, cannot override WP policies or guidelines set by a broader consensus. I know it might seem frustrating, but all an admin can do is note the guideline has been correctly set, consider "Kate Middleton" instantly renamed as "Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge" and just go with the flow, despite a local consensus of "57%" who dislike a new name for a person. Plus, a typical 2/3rds majority to unrename is unlikely at this point. -Wikid77 (talk) 13:31, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • 400 people is a broad consensus. I doubt any of the policies have ever had 400 folks !vote on them. In fact, I'd say it's a safe bet for the closing admin to make that assumption and if I were them, I'd require evidence that the policy actually has the broader consensus.--v/r - TP 13:57, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • The closing editor isn't going to just tally up the votes anyway. See WP:VOTE. The discussion and good points brought up by engaged users will mean a lot more to the closing decision and rationale than how many editors wrote "oppose" or "support". NewAccount4Me (talk) 17:13, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • The original rename was done summarily by an admin based on minimal or no discussion and then immediately move-protected. Since it should never have been done that way, the new name should not be treated as the default situation to fall back on if no consensus is reached. The default situation with no consensus is always the one that prevailed before the disagreement arose. – Smyth\talk 19:04, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose....BLP vetoes other policies in this particular scenario.--MONGO 14:15, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly oppose Those who argue that Manning has not legally changed her name miss the point of legal name changes. Their purpose is to ensure continuity, providing evidence that (to use a hypothetical) the person known as Alex Smith previously and the person known as Sam Smith now are in fact the same person. A highly public statement that the person previously known as Bradley Manning is now Chelsea Manning is quite sufficient to demonstrate that they are the same person. While such a statement may not satisfy legal requirements (though in some jurisdictions, even a private statement (if written) is sufficient) imposed on various government agencies, Wikipedia is not subject to such requirements. MaxHarmony (talk) 17:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC) [edited for clarity MaxHarmony (talk) 18:55, 27 August 2013 (UTC)][reply]
  • Oppose per "New York Times to Call Chelsea Manning by Her Preferred Name" and "NYT, AP to refer to Manning as 'Chelsea'" - looks like there is a new common name, and accords with MOS. That happens, like when people get married. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:13, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose changing the article's title back to Bradley Manning. MOS:IDENTITY is very clear on this point. WP:BLP is also relevant here as we must recognize that there is a possibility of harm should we fail to respect the subject's wishes in this regard. As for WP:COMMONNAME, I note that both AP and The New York Times are now referring to Manning as Chelsea and using feminine pronouns. Gobōnobō + c 18:58, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Retain article at Chelsea Manning. Per Jimbo's reasoning, and also because that Manning's declaration was about as unambiguous as they get.Tazerdadog (talk) 19:16, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly oppose per WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY. We respect the subject's declared gender identity. There has been a lot of discussion about how Wikipedia doesn't take a political position. Any position we take on this issue is political - if we change the article title to reflect Manning's new name and gender preference, we are being inclusive and tolerant. If we do not, we are deciding to endorse less tolerant views. We can couch it in any language we like, but that is the reality of the situation - we at Wikipedia have to make a choice and we should choose to respect Manning. Wadewitz (talk) 19:22, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I read MOS:IDENTITY and WP:BLP as favouring ‘Chelsea’ and disfavouring ‘Bradley’: so as to do no harm to them, Wikipedia has in the past accepted and should continue to accept the names and genders that transgender people have indicated that they have. Phil Sandifer lists other articles that were renamed when their subjects came out as transgender. Just as usefully, other commenters have pointed out the regularity with which articles are renamed when their subjects change names due to marriage (even when, as was the case with ‘Kate Middleton’/‘Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge’, there is local opposition to the rename). For these reasons, I reject the argument some have made that WP:COMMONNAME favours ‘Bradley’ or disfavours ‘Chelsea’ — and even if it did, I accept the argument other have made that MOS:IDENTITY and WP:BLP are designed to trump it per the principle that lex specialis derogat legi generali. I find the suggestion which some have made, that the article have the title "Bradley Manning" but use "Chelsea Manning" throughout, particularly odd, like Solomon's suggestion of cutting the child in half... if one concedes that the subject should be addressed as Chelsea, why would one title the article "Bradley"? I agree with the arguments presented by Morwen and Gerard in their "!vote rationale", and with Guettarda's comment of 14:20, 28 August 2013. -sche (talk) 19:45, 27 August 2013 (UTC) (additional comments added 22:36, 28 August 2013 (UTC))[reply]
  • In the light of the recent AP announcement to henceforth use the "Chelsea Manning" term (as well as a similar statement by the New York Times), I think that by now, it is safe to say that "Chelsea Manning" is the correct title of this Wikipedia artice, per WP:COMMONNAME. I have therefore stricken out my earlier support reasoning, and now opt for Oppose moving the page back. I would like to add that I stick with my opinion that the move had been premature and run against WP:BRD. Also note my decision is still purely based on WP:COMMONNAME, without the need to invoke WP:BLP or MOS:IDENTITY: In my opinion (I elaborated further down that discussion and which remains valid), there just is no transgender issue at all, the reason why the common name of the Wikileaks whistleblower changed is not of importance.--FoxyOrange (talk) 20:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)(changed my mind again, see below).--FoxyOrange (talk) 19:40, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Per WP:IDENTITY, "[when verifiable], the term most commonly used for a person will be the one that person uses for himself or herself. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns, pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification." And see the AP announcement for verification. As Jimbo said, we ought to very strongly defer to how people identify themselves. Some supporters cite "procedural objections," but this isn't a bureaucracy: it's an editorial community, and the appropriate discussion is being held. —wing gundam 20:07, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wikipedia isn't a democracy so why are all these good people attempting to vote here? If there is a vote in future, please let us know. In the meantime, don't count any votes here, just weigh the arguments. Thanks - Pointillist (talk) 21:57, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - This controversial move was premature, and locking it in place set the stage for much of the vitriol which followed. Had WP:BRD been followed, and this was an RM on Bradley Manning -> Chelsea Manning, I would be leaning towards support, but would suggest that we wait another few days to see how the media sources finally settle in. Despite the noble intentions of many of the editors here, WP should not lead the media. -- ToE 23:37, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, I feel that the name should stay at Chelsea Manning. I recognize that some parts of the article will be awkward, but I believe that respect for the individual’s preference is more important. SchreiberBike talk 23:25, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

28 August 2013 (UTC)

Extended content
  • Oppose. Just noticed this discussion is due to be closed soon and I hadn't commented yet. For me, MOS:IDENTITY should trump WP:COMMONNAME in clear cases such as this one. Robofish (talk) 01:22, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Per MOS:IDENTITY. I think WP:IAR allows for MOS:IDENTITY to trump WP:commonname. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ross Hill (talk • contribs)
    • As has been said at least a dozen times, because this is a name change move MOS:IDENTITY does not apply. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:26, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • As has also been said a dozen times, MOS:IDENTITY talks about "gendered nouns," and it is only a small stretch from there to regarding a chosen name as a form of gendered identification. For example, User:BD2412 makes a similar observation in his sandbox page assessing the situation. So whilst the wording of MOS:ID does not explicitly accommodate titles or given names, it is not nearly as clear cut as "does not apply" makes out. Chris Smowton (talk) 10:02, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • A lot of things could be read into policies if we are willing to make "small stretch"es. And anyways, names usually don't absolutely assert gender. NickCT (talk) 12:51, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • Sure, I'm not arguing that there is an existing policy on name usage, but that such a policy would be congruent with this existing, closely related one. Names certainly don't always assert gender, but ask a thousand people the gender of an unknown Bradley and they'll say male, and similarly Chelsea, so these names do strongly assert gender. Chris Smowton (talk) 13:23, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I retract my "support" to revert back to Bradley and must say this. I have never seen such a huge ruckus like this before. Move to Bradly, move to Chelsea, re-move to Bradley, re-move to Chelsea, and the list goes on. That aside, this... person made a decision on oneself. Sources use "Bradley", while other sources use "Chelsea". Still, I am on the limbo. No gossip is yet made; she made a decision. Nevertheless, there is not yet an operation or a hormone therapy. WP:BLP doesn't say much about name preferences, but WP:BLPCAT allows adding categories relating to self-identities. WP:AT encourages using "commonly recognizable" names, but both Bradley and Chelsea are recognizable names right now. WP:TITLECHANGES discourages unreasonable moves, but moving to "Chelsea" was reasonable due to this person's recent self-declaration. Nevertheless, this situation led to edit warring, and this discussion is the partial result of edit warring. Also, we unwitfully committed forum shopping, which is strictly discouraged, by discussing this matter everywhere in WT:AT, WP:BLPN, WP:ANI, here, and elsewhere I couldn't know yet. Don't take this the wrong way, but MOS:IDENTITY is nothing more than an editing-related guideline, and it says nothing much about titling an article about a "transgender". Neither WP:verifiability nor WP:neutral point of view says about what to do with this situation. Even Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) does not explain titling an article about a transgender, transsexual, or transvestite. But I must say that WP:policies and guidelines forbids/discourages contradictions among policies and/or guidelines. And that concision should be mininal instead of excessive. And that rules must "be clear"; somehow, rules on articles about transgender or transsexual people are not clear enough in this case.

    Here's my opinion: While I do not want him to change into a woman, and while I found the GID diagnosis flawed, I am really now torn on naming matters. --George Ho (talk) 05:04, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm finding it hard to follow what you mean by "I found the GID diagnosis flawed". Do you mean for Chelsea Manning, or in general? (Just FYI, "transgender" is an adjective, not a noun.) 7daysahead (talk) 13:08, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is not bound by guidelines issued by outside organizations. It would be especially troubling to give weight to a policy published by an organization devoted to advocacy, no matter how well intentioned. DPRoberts534 (talk) 18:36, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Every organization is devoted to advocacy of one kind or another, openly or not, and GLAAD is no exception. In addition, GLAAD is devoted to fair representation of minority sexual and gender identities, which in this case means representation of these groups on their own terms. The burden is on those who argue to not respect their preferences to demonstrate that these are somehow non-neutral or misleading. If, say, an organization represents itself as "race X pride" or some such, but in fact works openly to deny rights to members of other races, so that their own stated wishes are deliberately misleading and factually incorrect to cover up an aggressive agenda, that would constitute an argument not to follow their preferences. In the transgender case, the preferred nomenclature does happen to challenge parts of what most of us were brought up to believe as default, but the very point is that this was not neutral in the first place, as it made an existent group de facto invisible. So unless it can be demonstrated that there is significant disagreement within the transgender community itself on how they want to be represented, or that their preferences somehow infringe on non-members, following GLAAD guidelines is as neutral as it gets. On the other hand, deciding consciously to disrespect known guidelines issued in their name, especially when one of the main points of these guidelines is to provide ways of recognizing the very existence of the group, constitutes advocacy against them and so cannot be defended as neutral at all. – Miranche T C 00:30, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose move to Bradley Manning. In this case WP:BLP, with regards to respecting our subjects by being sensitive to avoid causing them harm, overrides WP:COMMONNAME, even though many reliable sources are changing their references to 'Chelsea' and eventually the common name will likely rest at 'Chelsea'. I'd also like to note that with some of the comparisons where non-transgender people who have changed their name and the article title stayed at the common title we are also dealing with entertainers who use stage names or pen names. This is a rare situation and there really isn't much precedent to go on at Wikipedia. Some of the other comparisons being made are lacking in their scientific understanding of gender and sexuality. Synchronism (talk) 07:19, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move back to Bradley. If this was Cat Stevens we wouldn't even be arguing this; pretty much all of this person's activities that were notable were associated with the name Bradley. I also consider it an abuse of the rules to immediately move a page when there is no consensus, and then to require consensus before being able to move it back. Ken Arromdee (talk) 07:56, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - change it back: Wikipedia (which purports to be an encyclopaedia) and it's talk pages shouldn't become a forum for LGBT activism WP:ACTIVIST . "Sensitivity" for Private Manning's feelings (who is a criminal convicted of treason) is just a red herring. This entire episode has been a phenomenally successful work of internet activism; The topic of transgender-ism (originating from THIS very page) has now made most mainstream media outlets (with the exception of the left wing press, the reputation of wikipedia has taken a severe battering). I suspect fund raising for Wikipedia has now become much much harder. TeddyTesseract (talk) 12:46, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • OpposeSupport: In my book we should have waited until the gender changing had been done. It would have made more sense to do that. What if he changed his mind? (Unlikely but not impossible) Anyone who voted it to be moved to Chelsea would be kicking themselves! I sense a WP:CRYSTAL violation in the midst of all this. MM (Report findings) (Past espionage) 13:05, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Just clearing up a misconception. - Oppose means you want the page to stay as "Chelsea" and, - Support means you want the page reverted back to "Bradley". I've noticed a lot of wikipedia users are making this mistake. Are the admins counting the poll reading the comments to determine the wikipedia users true voting intention ? TeddyTesseract (talk) 13:19, 28 August 2013 (UTC) Teddy[reply]
We are. Proportionally, there are actually very few of these sorts of errors. bd2412 T 13:29, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move back to Bradley. One more argument: At the moment, Bradley’s request to go by Chelsea is nothing more than wishful thinking. Publicly there is no actual change of any kind visible and with reasonable doubt will there be one for time to come. Others, who have been granted a gender change status, have been seen to actually have changed. This article is public and should reflect how Manning is seen in public (i.e. COMMONNAME over IDENTITY) Alandeus (talk) 13:33, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Popular media outlets such as the New York Times and AP are now using the name Chelsea Manning and there is still active coverage of her in the news under this name, and further there has been a lot of coverage of the issue of the name change itself. Lastly, I disagree with Ken Arromdee statement that this is similar to article name Cat Stevens, since the artist currently known as Yusuf was born Steven Demetre Georgiou, reached the height of popularity under the name Cat Stevens, then chose the name Yusuf Islam, and then Yusuf (if anything, such a comparison might be made if we first moved the article Cat_Stevens to the page name Yusuf_(musican) and then argued that we should move this to Steven_Demetre_Georgiou). Joshuagay (talk) 14:06, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose move, per WP:BLP. Policy allows people to identify as they choose - we don't tell Benjamin Jealous that he's too white-looking to call himself African American. Had Caster Semenya "failed" the IAAF gender test we wouldn't have labelled her someone of 'ambiguous gender' (or anything of the sort). And Barack Obama is African American, not bi-racial, because he chooses to identify that way. The ability to self-identify in terms of gender is a fundamental human right for transgender people. We accept that - we use male pronouns for Chaz Bono despite the fact that he was born female because that's the way he chooses to identify, not because he legally changed his name, and not because he had gender reassignment surgery. Refusal to do so, calling transmen "she" or transwomen "he" is basic bullying, and if BLP says nothing else about this matter, it clearly doesn't allow people to use BLPs to harass or bully.

    If we accept the fact that Manning has the right to identify as female, the choice of article title seems obvious. It's overly incongruous to write an article in which we use female pronouns with a male name, or use a male name in the article title and a female name in the text (and, again, for us to insist that Manning should be called "Bradley" makes us party to that bullying). Guettarda (talk) 14:20, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose move: Per WP:IDENTITY, which should trump WP:COMMONNAME. The argument that Wikipedia should document what reliable sources say and not advocate any position is not relevant here since that fundamental policy refers to Wikipedia's statements of fact (ie, Wikipedia's content) not Wikipedia's style decisions. Further, there is a hierarchy of reliability among sources and our policy is to place a much greater weight on the information in the most reliable sources; the most reliable source on Manning's name is Manning herself. And per WP:BLP Wikipedia should do the least harm to subjects of BLPs as possible while educating readers. Ignoring a BLP subject's express request to honor their self-identified name over a pedantic principle is just bullying. Readers who search for the pre-transition name will still find the right article through our excellent redirects system, and they will be educated about the new name in the process. Dezastru (talk) 15:13, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    If the article is placed at Chelsea Manning on account of interpretations of BLP as expressed by Guettarda and Dezastru, we are in for quite a precedent, as this interpretation is entirely new and has not, apparently, been applied to biographies of living persons who aren't transgender. -- tariqabjotu 15:22, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    How so? The appropriate comparison isn't Cat Stevens vs Yusuf Islam as an article title. Moving this article to Bradley Manning is more comparable to insisting that Yusuf Islam should continue to be identified as a Christian after he converted (at the time, I'm sure the vast majority of sources that discussed his religion identified him as Christian). If we accept that transgender exists, we accept that Manning should now be identified as "she". Secondarily, we accept the principle that articles should not, per BLP, be used to bully their subjects. Denying the right of a transgender person to identify as their chosen gender, is bullying. And insisting that Manning must be called "Bradley" makes us party to that bullying. Guettarda (talk) 18:11, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I don't see eye-to-eye on that comparison. Cat Stevens chose the name Yusuf Islam in concert with his decision to become Muslim, and Bradley Manning chose the name Chelsea Manning in concert with his decision to live life as a woman. To the same extent that you feel Bradley Manning is a manifestation of Manning's previous identity, Cat Stevens is a manifestation of Islam's previous identity. Of course, in each case, I just see it as a name change. Cat Stevens could have changed his name to Yusuf Islam without altering his religious identity, or altered his religion without changing his name; Bradley Manning could have changed his name to Chelsea Manning without altering his gender identity, or altered his gender identity without changing his name. It makes no sense that you choose to conflate the name and the identity change for someone who begins to identify by a new gender, but refuse to do that for someone who begins to identify by a new religion. Again, it seems to be a belief, unsubstantiated, that transgender people are different.
And I should remind you that the article title is just that, an article title. It is not an insistence that that is the subject's preferred name. The body of the article can say anything, particularly as it has the space in which to elaborate. The article can say "Chelsea Manning, formerly known as Bradley Manning, is..." and then proceed to use Chelsea and female pronouns throughout the article. The lead and body can explain that. However, the title does not have that space (I presume Chelsea (formerly Bradley) Manning) is not an option). You'll see, for example, the Cat Stevens article almost exclusively calls the subject Yusuf or Yusuf Islam in the period following his conversion, except when referencing his work, his life, and the individual prior to the conversion. The lead begins with the name "Yusuf Islam", not the name "Cat Stevens". The article title is a separate matter.
And, of course, I also question the conjecture that many sources referred to Cat Stevens as Christian at the time of conversion. I assume you're referring to prior to his conversion? The common name arguments don't seem to be entirely centered around the idea that before August 22, Manning was known as Bradley; even after August 22, the transition has been slow, as some sources continue to use Bradley. I find it extremely hard to believe a source would call Cat Stevens Christian the day after he announced he was Muslim. That some sources would call Manning male the day after he announced he was female suggests a different level of acceptable about changing gender (which many feel is inexorably linked to biology) vs. changing religion. (And interestingly, even despite the general consensus about changing religion, we still wouldn't retroactively refer to Cat Stevens as Muslim prior to his conversion... even though many Muslims call conversion reversion. This retroactive application of gender, provided MOS:IDENTITY as written holds, would stand in contrast to other identity changes.) The lack of general consensus in the real world about gender changes could lead to a big discussion (and some of those points have, perhaps inappropriately, been touched upon here), but, thankfully, this discussion is not about which gender to put in the article, but which name to put in the title. -- tariqabjotu 18:49, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I already commented a few times in this discussion but I don't think I formally casted a vote. I base my preference on our policies particularly BLP, the fact that these put the preferences of the person the article is about first. We have to use the information from reliable sources to make our editorial decisions, using these policies. This means that we need to take the relevant information from the reliable sources. In this case, this is about Manning's gender identity issues, we have to apply the relevant policies to this to arrive at a decision about what name to use. What is not correct to do in this case is to take from the reliable sources what name they have chosen to use, because that comes with additional baggage. This baggage is what the editorial policies of the reliable sources are, and they may well be in conflict with our policies. Also, what is clear is that the choices the reliable sources have made is not unanimous for one or the other name. If this were the case and we would come to a different conclusion, then it would be a legitimate question to ask why this is the case, whether there is something wrong with our policies, etc.. In this case, the fact that the reliable sources are not unanimous is an indication that whatever choice one makes will depend largely on the details of the editorial policies, and therefore it's not a problem that Wikipedia makes a choice that involves having to process information using our policies rather than e.g. doing some polling of the reliable sources. Count Iblis (talk) 16:05, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. A person's name is the name they tell you it is. That really should be all that needs to be said (and this illustrates rather well how absurd it is not to apply this principle just because the person in question happens to be transgender), but it seems it isn't.
Arguments in favour of changing the title back to "Bradley" based on WP:COMMONNAME overlook the simple fact that the name "Chelsea Manning" has, since her public coming-out, attained as great a notoreity as "Bradley Manning"; that "Bradley" is the name by which she until recently was best known is immaterial.
It has been asserted that by acknowledging Chelsea Manning's correct name (and gender and pronoun) Wikipedia is giving in to "LGBT activists". It is superficially tempting to dismiss this as nonsense and to say that titling the page "Chelsea" is not a political statement but mere accuracy; this, however, is too simple. Gender is political, whether we like it or not. It is impossible for anyone to take part and take a side (either side) in this discussion without making a political statement; it would be dishonest of me to say that I am not making one now, and if any of you think you are not making one then I'm afraid you are mistaken.
But the political decision to change the page's title to "Chelsea" is in the same category as a political decision to say "black person" or "African-American" rather than using the N-word - race, too, is political, and rejecting racist language is a political act. That the latter is now an act we all (I hope) do almost without thinking, to the extent that Wikipedia has no need of a policy or guideline mandating it, is not the point. Gender remains more controversial, but Wikipedia, which (as I have said) simply cannot avoid adopting a politican stance on the matter, has made its stance clear with things like the MOS:IDENTITY guidelines. If that means Wikipedia has given into to "LGBT activists" it is because those activists, on this matter at the least, are right.
For all the above reasons, the page title should remain "Chelsea Manning". Ou tis (talk) 16:56, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support As I understand the policy, our role here is not to decide which is more important from a bureaucratic perspective(WP:IDENTITY, WP:COMMONNAME, WP:MOS). The overarching goal and policy is to make it easy for Wikipedia readers world-wide to quickly and easily find the specific subject they are looking for, a goal which it seems the original naming achieves. Capitalismojo (talk) 16:51, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • In that case we should move the article currently titled "Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge" from that obscure name back to the name commonly used by the media, Kate Middleton. And if we use offensive, misgendering titles for transgendered people, we should do the same to others, and just call her "John Middleton". Btww., the "overarching goal and policy" of Wikipedia is to provide accurate and neutral information, "Bradley" is neither accurate nor neutral. And the policy of not causing harm to article subjects trumps everything else. Josh Gorand (talk) 17:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The move, carried out without any meaningful discussion, in fact, in blatant flaunting of the fact that any sustained discussion is merited, and the subsequent bogus collusion by another admin to force the new status quo is appalling, and the two (long in the tooth admins, sorry to note) deserve to be desysopped summarily by ArbComm for egregious violations of every policy that encourages common sense, restraint and consensus building. I hope this comes to pass as a warning to all such "activist" admins. An admin is not some venerated cow with extra editing privileges on the merit of things, to high-hand it to the rest of the community. We are not idiots to have things enforced on our behalf. --Mareklug talk 19:31, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh dear, I thought this over nearly all day, and now I feel like again changing my mind. I started at "support", went to "oppose" yesterday, but today I have finally arrived at the conclusion that I just don't know . I obviously occupy some kind of a special position within this discussion, because (as I have pointed out earlier), to me there is just no transgender issue. Not at all. To me, it all comes down to the question "What is (currently) the most common name most people would use to refer to that Wikileaks whistleblower?" I'm feeling uneasy with my earlier assumption that with the New York Times and AP having chosen to use "Chelse Manning", this would establish this term as the most common one. Because on the other hand, there has not been much reporting since Manning announced the name change; but the Wikileaks affair and subsequent trial received a tremendous amount of worldwide public attention. At that time, the person was known as "Bradley Manning", and several books have been written about him. So, I have no idea how to find out what name should be used per WP:COMMONNAME. Good luck to the closing admins.--FoxyOrange (talk) 19:40, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per MOS:IDENTITY, and at this point, per WP:COMMONNAME, given that the AP and a number of other sources are now referring to the subject of this article as "Chelsea" instead of "Bradley". Cam94509 (talk) 20:34, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I think it should be moved back to Bradley Manning for now. His name change to Chelsea Manning has no legal effect yet, and since when has Wikipedia simply used the preferred name instead of the name that the public uses. Chelsea Manning is not the name used to address him in court, nor is it used by any major media organization when discussing him, not his newfound gender identity. user:Purplepox01 20:36, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose' move to Bradley Manning. Not just on the grounds of WP:IDENTITY, which I think should have precedence over WP:COMMONNAME, but primarily on the grounds of basic human decency. Chelsea has clearly expressed intention to transition to female effective immediately upon the announcement, and requested to be referred to by the name Chelsea Manning and the use of feminine pronouns. To do otherwise would be extremely disrespectful and trans-phobic. Chelos (talk)
  • Support per both of Ken Arromdee's points. The Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam comparison is apt. As a general point that I don't remember seeing discussed much, in my (admittedly inexperienced compared to many here) opinion the title should be moved back to Bradley if there fails to be a consensus for the "oppose" side. The fact that the name Chelsea "won" the wheel war shouldn't mean that it should be in the position of default winner in the event of no census to go back to Bradley. I'm sorry that so many people view a support vote as trans-phobic, but I believe that's an overreaction to the title being Bradley. Every notable thing Manning has done -- other than come out as a woman -- has been under the name of Bradley. I respect her decision to come out but that doesn't mean that that's her widely recognized name -- not now, and certainly not when the changes were made. That's all that should matter with regards to the title. Any discussion of trans-phobia or sex vs. gender is not relevant. Baseballbaker23 (talk) 22:11, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • weak Oppose Enough sources exist to both names that there is no clear choice in which name to use. As such, lesser considerations need to be taken, such as the preference by Manning, and the impact a revert back to Bradley Manning will have on Wikipedia itself. We can blame the persons who made the initial move, but media is watching Wikipedia on this subject. Moving back can have clear damaging effect, and two wrongs would not make a right. We should not cause disruption on Wikipedia just to illustrate a point about jumping the gun. As such, cautionary wait and see is my suggestion until reliable sources creates consensus. Belorn (talk) 23:10, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The article should have been reverted to Bradley and only changed to Chelsea after consensus to change it. While it appears likely that Chelsea Manning will be the commonly used name in the long run, that's WP:CRYSTAL and we should not sidestep policies for the purpose of furthering a goal that many feel is laudable, including myself. This is an encyclopedia. Revert it to Bradley and then we can discuss if there's the consensus necessary to move it to Chelsea. The means are important and though the motives were good, the editors jumped the gun and skipped the process to further good motives, not further a good encyclopedia.CoffeeCrumbs (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:46, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

29 August 2013 (UTC)

  • Oppose – MoS:IDENTITY seems to be accepted as (correctly) mandating feminine pronouns, and I think that using a masculine article title based on COMMONNAME is logically inconsistent. Changes in RS like the NYT and AP also suppose the "Chelsea" title. For me, it is BLP that determines the title in this case, after invoking IAR if necessary, and not just for Manning's sake. As a transgendered individual, Chelsea has not suddenly become female. What has occured is her declaring herself publicly. She was not a man until she made her announcement, rather she has always been a woman who was unfortunate to be born into a body which does not match her gender, and she has suffered because of that for most of her life. That she now feels able to ask us (i.e. people in general) to recognise the woman she is, irrespective of anatomy, is a major step forward for her and one we should respect. Further, there are a lot of transgendered editors here at WP, some of whom are out (as Chelsea now is) and some who are not yet ready to admit publicly to their experience and to ask us to acknowledge the pain with which they've lived and respect their gender. This debate has including many comments that hugely disrepect the experiences of those editors and suggest that their coming out will not be met with support and compassion. The comparison to the Cat Stevens / Yusuf Islam, for example, is seen as apt as he went from Christian to Muslim and asked that an associated name change be respected, but it is not a comparable case. Chelsea has not made a decision to change genders, she has always been a woman and yet has been forced to live as a male for decades and suffered as a consequence. She was a woman when her name was Bradley, she had probably tried desperately to conform to societal expectations for years since childhood, and has ultimately accepted who she is and now declared herself openly and denying that would (per BLP) be a cruel act on our part - cruel towards Chelsea and brutally dismissive of the difficult and painful journey of all transgendered individuals. I am not saying that all supporters of the old article title are transphobic, they aren't. Some are simply looking at policy and practice in abstract terms, some truly believe that policy is more important than individual "preference", and I suspect many haven't considered transgendered editors here on WP. To me, the essence of BLP is to avoid harming living people and returning this article to its old title would be harmful to all transgendered individuals. It would be harmful to Chelsea, whether she knows about it or not, because it would be adding to the idea that refusing to recognise the true gender of a transgendered individual is acceptable. Invoke IAR if you must, but keep this article at the name that this individual has chosen to represent the gender she has always had. EdChem (talk) 00:10, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    You seem to focus primarily on which gender to use in the article, rather than which name to use in the title. Regardless, the idea that Manning's gender and name change announcement is retroactive to birth is an interpretation that is not universally held. That's certainly the case broadly and, apparently, is also the case even among the LGBT community: the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association, for example, says, When writing about events prior to when the person began living publicly as the opposite gender, NLGJA recommends using the name and gender the individual used publicly at that time. -- tariqabjotu 01:27, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not quite: an email from a spokesperson says that. This contradicts, however, the NLGJA Stylebook Supplement (PDF warning), which says to "use the name and personal pronouns that are consistent with how the individual lives publicly" — note the use of present tense — and their [statement http://www.nlgja.org/article/nlgja-encourages-journalists-fair-accurate] issued in response to Manning, which says to "use the name and pronouns that someone prefers". Note that in neither case is this limited to say that it should be ignored in reference to historical events. MaxHarmony (talk) 02:14, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but in neither case does it say that this should be applied in reference to historical events. It's ambiguous and can be interpreted either way. (Despite The Huffington Post eagerly jumping to using the female pronoun and Chelsea name, even one of their bloggers acknowledges that this ambiguity existed in LGBT organizations' guidelines.) However, with the clarification from their spokesperson, it seems the NLGJA did not mean for the gender identity change to be applied retroactively. -- tariqabjotu 02:26, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The cases are not exactly the same but I think the comparison is apt since it can be interpreted as WP refuse to recognize Yusuf's new name because of Islamophobia just as not changing the title to Chelsea apparently can be interpreted as if WP refuses to recognize her gender identity. In the past the rule has always been to chose the name for which someone is best known not the name a person should be addressed with today but apparently many do not understand that. Anyway, I think it might be best if the policy for how to choose BLP titles is changed so as to minimize offense in all cases. The choice of pronoun is a different matter and MOS:IDENTITY is probably a wise guideline, naturally we should mention that she is known as Chelsea now in the article thereby acknowledging her real gender. --Space simian (talk) 04:50, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move back to Bradley, as Chelsea is not (yet) commonly recognized outside of those following the story. The vast majority of sources refer to Bradley without reference to Chelsea. In time, months I guess, there may be a preponderance of reliable sources referring to Chelsea without reference to Bradley, but until then we should resist recentism and anticipation that this name will stick and be repeated in reliable sources. A moderate point is that the material about the subject is on the past, when he was known as Bradley, and little significant material is anticipated from her future. We should wait a few months, we should wait for the change to what is commonly recognized. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:42, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I apologise for the length of this comment, but this is a complex and important issue and many arguments have been raised.
Many supporters of the proposed move have justified it on the basis that Bradley is his legal name and that he is biologically male. While I trust these arguments will be ignored by the closers as having no basis in policy, I think it is worth explaining why they are irrelevant since they continue to be raised. As others have pointed out, we go by common name not legal name and we would have to change a lot of article titles if we decided to change that (I will not enter into the dispute over whether the announcement suffices to legally change his name, though I note that our article on name changes would tend to support those who are that it does). As for the biological argument (and ignoring the confusions between biological sex and gender), again it is irrelevant. There is nothing stopping a man from changing his name to one that is usually female.
The other irrelevant argument that has been raised is that it was moved improperly. We are holding a very large and contentious requested move discussion at the moment where all the arguments about what the title should be can be raised and considered. Since all the substantive arguments can be discussed here, it would be pointless to move it back on procedural grounds. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. If we did move it back based on procedural failings then we would inevitably have to almost immediately hold another RM discussion to deal with the substantive issue of what the article should be called. I doubt anyone wants another week of this sort of mess and argument. There are more productive (and pleasant) things we could be doing.
That brings us to WP:COMMONNAME. I would argue that reliable sources published since Manning’s announcement are split and (as others have pointed out, sources from before the name change are hardly relevant). They are also trending in favour of Chelsea, and there is no point in moving it to Bradley if we are just going to move it back to Chelsea in a couple of weeks as usage evolves (as I said above, does anyone really want to have another week of this?). The AP and the New York Times have announced that they have decided to use Chelsea. Other people have provided more comprehensive lists of sources using Chelsea, so it is unnecessary for me to further lengthen this comment by doing so. Since reliable sources are split, we should look to other policy-based arguments.
WP:IDENTITY is applicable here and supports using Chelsea. It states: “When there is no dispute, the term most commonly used for a person will be the one that person uses for himself or herself, and the most common terms for a group will be those that the group most commonly uses for itself. Wikipedia should use them too.” Some people have argued that this doesn’t apply because there is a dispute over whether to use Chelsea or Bradley. But I think it is clear in context that the reference to a “dispute” does not mean a dispute on Wikipedia; rather it means a dispute regarding what is subsequently referred to in the sentence – “the term ... [a] person uses for himself or herself...”
But ultimately I believe BLP is what dictates that we must use Chelsea. There have been a lot of complaints that the BLP argument has not been adequately explained. I think this is because the argument is not easy to articulate, though nonetheless valid. Also many people seem to be dismissing it on the basis that the statement is not libellous or otherwise legally problematic. But this ignores the fact that the BLP policy is not just concerned with protecting Wikipedia from legal liability. The obligations we have placed on ourselves go beyond what would be required by the law. Underlying the BLP policy is a recognition of the respect and care we owe people when writing about them, and the harm – including distress – that can be caused when we don’t do so in a way that reflects that respect and care. The BLP policy states in the introduction that material relating to a living person “requires a high degree of sensitivity...” Using a name in the title of the article that its subject has expressly asked not be used because it does not accord with her expressed gender identity is not according that “high degree of sensitivity” required for BLPs. People have drawn analogies with other people whose preferred names are not used, but given the additional sensitivity surrounding gender identity I don't think they are persuasive. Neljack (talk) 05:12, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Wikipedia's actual clients

Wikipedia's actual clients -- you know, general readers not familiar wp-this and wp-that -- are going to expect to find an article on the name that's been in the news for months. During the notable part of the person's life they were know as Bradley so that's what the article should be titled. NE Ent 01:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia's actual clients are going to find this article no matter which title they search on, because the redirect from her former name means they'll still get here anyway. Bearcat (talk) 04:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You're right. However it's still interesting to look at what people are searching for: Bradley Manning vs Chelsea Manning Even with the front page ITN linking to Chelsea Manning, people are still using the Bradley search term more often by a significant magnitude. It might be something to look into a bit - perhaps it might represent what the majority still currently believe his name is? Before we make crystal ball predictions on whether this current trend may change, keep in mind that we make decisions based on the present, and not for the future. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 08:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Another look at the view counts you linked to shows that on 27 Aug the counts were Chelsea:25542 versus Bradley:6166. On 26 Aug it was Chelsea 28210, Bradley 7220. On 25 Aug it was Chelsea 24774, Bradley 9397. Far more Wikipedia readers are going to the Chelsea target than to the Bradley target, since 22 Aug when "Bradley" was more frequently viewed. It is not even close as time passes. Edison (talk) 23:50, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Because there was a prominent link to Chelsea on the main page. Hot Stop talk-contribs 02:50, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. You'll notice on August 28, the Chelsea figures dropped substantially; now, Chelsea vs. Bradley is 8652 vs. 3881. And because Bradley is a redirect to Chelsea, it's actually 4771 vs. 3881. Not that drastic. There are still a number of factors involved: which title is linked from other articles, the media attention, editors involved here editing the article (even this talk page got more than 2000 [non-unique] views), etc. There's a reason the Stats FAQ says not to base any important decisions on the numbers there. -- tariqabjotu 03:16, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Redirects: Cheap, easy, free. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:53, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The parallel I gave was Sears Tower. Wikipedia wasn't in business when it was renamed, but I doubt it would wait long to title the article according to the new official product placement. I think it is acceptable to retitle the article according to an official new name, even though most people aren't using that yet. Even though I favor using "he" and "Bradley" in descriptions of the earlier events. Wnt (talk) 22:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Wnt: Sears Tower was only renamed in 2009, so Wikipedia was most definitely in business. There was forewarning, though, that the rename was happening; the new name was announced in March 2009, but not implemented until July 2009. But for the most part, you're right; for reasons unknown, when buildings (especially stadiums, my goodness) get new sponsorships, renames seem to happen quite quickly. Then again, sources tend to adapt immediately as well (almost like it's illegal to call the stadium by that previous name). And it's debatable whether Chelsea Manning is officially the subject's new name much in the way Willis Tower is official the new name of the tallest building in Chicago. -- tariqabjotu 22:09, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:IDENTITY

For all those citing MOS:IDENTITY, that guideline relates to the content of the article not the the title of the article. This discussion is a move discussion. It relates solely to the title of the article, NOT the content of the article. The relevant policy page for this discussion is Wikipedia:Article titles.

I cannot even begin to imagine why people are citing WP:BLP. There are no BLP concerns affecting this discussion from what I can see.

--RA (✍) 18:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The general principle of BLP is that we have to have respect for individuals when we're smearing their names across the internet. I think it's misapplied here since we're confusing the reader to aggressively support the person's decisions, and that goes well beyond the dispassionate but polite concern expected for a Wikipedia article. Even if the policy says nothing specifically, the sense of the policy is correctly applied when being careful about how we talk about living people. 71.231.186.92 (talk) 19:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yep. I think it's being applied correctly--even if Octamom is the most common name, we don't have an article by that name for a reason... Hobit (talk) 22:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hobit, we have no need to look to BLP. Policy on article titles like Octomom is given in Wikipedia:Article titles (explicitly in that case). A title like "Bradley Manning" is not akin to "Octomom". Yesterday, there was no ambiguity about this person's name - or any sense that it may have carried offence. It was simply "Bradley Manning". Today, they asked to be called something else. We can mention that but we don't have to rename the article because of it. --RA (✍) 23:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
*.92, you raise a good point. I find something upsetting in the way the article was so aggressively altered and moved on the back of Manning's statement. It doesn't matter if the article is a little behind the latest tattle. We should be more sensitive before jumping and move with a greater degree of care on BLPs (where there is no urgent need for modification). --RA (✍) 23:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
He is one of more than 6,000,000,000 people, he is just as special as everyone else. If he wanted to change his name to 'Barak Obama' we would not be having this discussion, the page would remain his legal name of Bradley Manning. VictusB (talk) 23:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Define what you mean by "respect". It certainly doesn't, even as a general principle, mean that articles should only contain information that the living person would choose to have in the article. Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Referring to a trans woman using male-gendered names and and pronouns, including the title of the article, is deeply offensive and harmful. BLP asks us to consider harm to living subjects. I can think of few things more harmful to a subject than disrespecting their identification on deeply personal characteristics like gender identity, sexual orientation, race, religion, etc. --Trystan (talk) 01:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Emotional distress on the part of the subject is trumped by Wikipedia's mission to provide information in the easiest way possible to the largest number of people. The vast majority of the sources for the article refer to the subject as Bradley Manning, the vast majority of the pages that link to this article use the name Bradley Manning, and the vast majority of users of Wikipedia who look for this article know the person as Bradley Manning. Given that this is the person's current legal name and is not an inherently derogatory name, Manning's feelings on the matter are not enough to justify changing the name to Chelsea Manning. Miraculouschaos (talk) 02:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It is profoundly degrading to transgender persons to refer to them using gender-inappropriate names and pronouns when they have expressed a clear preference to be addressed according to their gender identity. The harm from disrespecting gender identity is profund and can not be reduced to mere hurt feelings.--Trystan (talk) 14:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, it is profoundly disrespectful. I think that brings WP:BLP into this. Hobit (talk) 16:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
One would expect the title of an article to be consistent of its contents. Wikipedia:Article titles also states that the naming guidelines should be used be interpreted in conjunction with other policies Vexorian (talk) 03:00, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline and not policy, policies outweigh guidelines on wikipedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There is no policy on Wikipedia which contains anything that would overrule MOS:IDENTITY. And guidelines are just as binding as policies in the absence of a compelling reason to make an exception. In fact, Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines is very specific on this point: Policies explain and describe standards that all users should normally follow, while guidelines are meant to outline best practices for following those standards in specific contexts. The only difference between the two is that guidelines may have valid exceptions in some circumstances — but unless there's a clear consensus that the case at hand is a valid exception, guidelines do still have to be followed every bit as much as policies do. Bearcat (talk) 00:43, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Policies such as WP:NOTABILITY a core Wikipedia policy (person notable for being Bradley manning) and WP:COMMONNAME Bradley being used more do outweigh it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
WP:N does not require an article to always remain at the title that a topic first became notable under; it just speaks to whether a topic should be included or excluded and has no bearing on what an article's title should or shouldn't be, or whether you can or can't move an article about a topic whose name changes after notability has already been established. And WP:COMMONNAME also explicitly says that there are numerous valid reasons why an article can be located at something other than the topic's "most common name". We title North American radio and television stations' articles with their call signs rather than their on-air brand names, for instance, because even though the on-air brand names are almost certainly more commonly known, they're rarely or never unique. We title most animal and plant species with their scientific (i.e. Latin) names rather than their common ones. We frequently choose alternate titles as a way to avoid spelling disputes between American and British English. And feel free to fill yourself in on how we dealt with the Derry vs. Londonderry and Dokdo vs. Takeshima "common name" disputes, too. COMMONNAME is simply not an invariable rule. So nope, neither of those policies is in conflict with MOS:IDENTITY at all. Bearcat (talk) 01:09, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The guidance contained elsewhere in the MoS, particularly in the section below on punctuation, applies to all parts of an article, including the title.

This would mean that MOS:IDENTITY applies to the article title. CaseyPenk (talk) 19:09, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The MOS does indeed apply to the styling of all parts of the article, including the title. What it doesn't apply to is the substance of the title, that's what the naming policy is for. That being said, I think the more relevant point is that the MOS indisputably requires the article to use only feminine pronouns, and doing so is incongruent with an article title of "Bradley". (I also personally think more generally that there are other reasons, not relating to the MOS specifically, that the article should be under "Chelsea", but that's a different discussion.) AgnosticAphid talk 19:56, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it can be safely said that there is ten times more input on this particular article than there has EVER been to MOS:IDENTITY. The MOS can be changed; it should not be used as weight in this decision... and I won't even get into the fact that it was crafted by the LGBT wikiproject and obviously reflects their viewpoint. - Floydian τ ¢ 15:11, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • To defend the MOS from your untoward suggestion – which you did make – that it somehow reflects only the interests of a biased cabal, I'd like to point out that every style manual that I've seen, if not every style guide that addresses the use of pronouns for transgender individuals, requires the use of a pronoun corresponding with the subject's chosen identity. The MOS is based on other style guides, not the whims of editors as informed by their views on matters of identity politics. You should go to the MOS talk page if you want to change the MOS. Until it does change, this article must use feminine pronouns and the extent to which that requirement affects the choice of title is a legitimate question. AgnosticAphid talk 15:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
But surely that would be the cart driving the horse. The pronoun question is separate to the article name question, and there is no reason to suppose that one is more important than the other - though it's the latter that's receiving all the attention right now. I agree with the OP on this thread - MOS:IDENTITY does not answer the article title question. There's no reason why we can't call the article "Bradley Manning" and then have "she" throughout. Having said that, though, I think the article name implies a change of the lead, as well as a change of the infobox heading. StAnselm (talk) 05:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, some baby name websites (e.g. [7]) list Bradley was both a boys' and girls' name. I can't find any notable women of this name, though I found this discussion forum which shows that some girls do have the name. So, Manning could have come out as a woman and kept the name Bradley. Now, it may be significant that she chose not to. I wonder if all transgender people like to change their name when they come out? I asked the question at Talk:Transgender#Names? but I haven't got an answer. 05:49, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps nobody would really consider this a notable woman, but I just remembered and wanted to note that there was a female character in this show I loved when I was a kid, Hey Dude, named Bradley! I am kind of inclined to agree with you overall that the name question is separate from the pronoun question, though – even if they are probably informed by similar considerations – having considered it a bit more. AgnosticAphid talk 03:22, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It even says that they are not the same, article titles and pronouns: "Disputes over how to refer to a person or group are addressed by policies such as Verifiability, Neutral point of view, and Article titles where the term appears in the title of an article." - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:25, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair, though, there is some ambiguity in the way it's written, for the reasons discussed here. What is the meaning of the second sentence, exactly – the "if there is no dispute" qualification is exceedingly odd.AgnosticAphid talk 04:58, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the close

Just noting here that I've asked on WP:AN/RFC [8] and WP:AN/I [9] for an admin to close this who has had no prior involvement with the page. Hopefully that will make the close as uncontentious as possible. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Gender identity

Is Bradley legally a female or male? In the article United States v. Manning Bradley prefers to be known as a female, Chelsea Manning, so it seems Bradley is a male, but like to be refered to as a female, so should we refer to Bradley as a male of female in this and the United States v. Manning? Casey.Grim85 (talk) 17:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Bradley's legal status is actually irrelevant. The style guide states Wikipedia should refer to Manning using female pronouns. —me_and 17:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, there is debate as to what "The style guide" says, and how it applies, you should go read the debate yourself if you are truly interested. Many people are arguing that MOS:IDENTITY dosn't really apply in this case. CombatWombat42 (talk) 17:30, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay I was just wondering it all! Casey.Grim85 18:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Is it logical to refer to a person who is currently biologically male as "she", regardless of how they perceive themselves? Would this same rule apply to transvestites, who are generally referred to using the pronoun "he"? I think it would make more sense to use the term "he" until the time that he actually undergoes surgical procedures to make him a female; only after that point will it make sense to use the term "she". (Cf. Wendy Carlos, one of the more famous examples of gender-reassigned persons.) Otherwise, it's just confusing to the average reader at present. — Loadmaster (talk) 19:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. There are plenty of trans-women who still have male sexual organs, but consider themselves "women". Gender != biology. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:05, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there is no single identifier that makes a "biological female". Whatever identifier you use will exclude many women and include many men (and the opposite for "biological male"). Biology is not perfect. --Dee Earley (talk) 12:45, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
He will serve his sentence in United States Disciplinary Barracks, which is a male prison. So in the eyes of the law he is definitely a man. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 20:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is not the United States, and we don't have to describe people only in terms of their relation to US law. A trans person does not detransition just because they move to a jurisdiction with inadequate legal provision for transition. Legal recognition, like surgery, is typically quite a late stage of transition. One must typically identify and live as one's chosen gender for some time before either becomes available. And let's not lose sight of the fact that Manning's access to female socialization, and to HRT, are artificially restricted by her status as a US federal prisoner. She's done about the only thing she currently can to signal to the world that this is her identity. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:11, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't believe Wikipedia would dissolve a gay marriage just because the couple moved to "a jurisdiction with inadequate legal provision" but I believe there would still be the expectation that if there was a gay marriage then there had to have been a prior legally recognized marriage SOMEWHERE. If Manning is legally recognized as female in Canada that would likely satisfy most people currently objecting. I believe you are confusing is and ought with respect to Manning's confinement. Whatever ought to be the case, if it IS the case that there not only is not but cannot be any legal recognition this is relevant to whether the dispute between the subject and his society as to how he or she should be perceived should be resolved in the favour of the subject.--Brian Dell (talk) 10:56, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The fact of imprisonment in that institution doesn't really prove anything. You can picture that women could be put there at any time due to overcrowding or through some bureaucratic snafu. And what is transsexuality more than the world's most confusing bureaucratic snafu? Wnt (talk) 22:22, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Manning's gender is female. She has clearly stated this. Her biological sex does not reflect her gender, but that does not change the fact that her gender is female. The pronouns we use should reflect gender, not sex; so yes, it does make sense to refer to Manning as "she". 86.16.146.123 (talk) 21:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Manning is male. He might decide that he "identifies with" a oblique Vulcan transhuman tomale, but that doesn't make it true. Kotowing to the latest politically correct fad impresses very few and does little for wikipedias already shaky credibility.

And throwing in your biased opinion without even signing your name does absolutely nothing for your credibility whatsoever. As such, we're quite in our rights to ignore your post completely until you learn how to use the signature. Like so: Blackbird_4 11:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Would any female allow Manning to use the women’s locker room at the local swimming pool, fitness centre, or public toilet? I doubt any typical female would be comfortable sharing facilities with Manning, would they? If females don’t accept Manning as female, then the name change is absurd. If women don't accept Manning as female nor let "her" use/share their facilities, then end of story. --BrianJ34 (talk) 17:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Um, no. That's not how gender identity works. California just passed a law allowing transgender children to choose which restroom they use in public schools. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I think my young brother switched his gender a few times... then he grew up. What a stupid premise. "I'm a girl today. Tomorrow I'm gonna be a dinosaur."

So, I can just choose my gender by making a public statement? "Hey everybody, I'm female today!" What if Manning decided to issue a public statement every day at sunrise, toggling his gender each time. Would we have to retitle the article and change all the pronouns on a daily basis? It seems to me that determining someone's gender by asking them is not terribly scientific. Let's put the question this way: If we got a panel of physicians or biologists to examine Manning, would they conclude that he is male or female? ‑Scottywong| spout _ 14:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think they'd decline the request as stupid. Formerip (talk) 14:34, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As and when Manning does toggle her gender in that way we can have that discussion; at the moment I don't think we need to consider that. FormerIP, there have been numerous levelheaded requests for people to keep hold of their emotions even in face of a flood of repetitive contributions, and those requesters are right - would you mind avoiding describing people's contributions as "stupid", and give detail as to why? 7daysahead (talk) 10:52, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is a basic difference in philosophy. There are some people who think that they shouldn't examine hypothetical cases until they're proven to exist, but when I raised this idea my thought was that whether or not it happens, our reaction to it is a useful test of our opinions, because someone could choose to do it at any time. I can picture a whole NRM with symbology of Ra's voyage through the underworld and the Yin-Yang of the cosmos. Wnt (talk) 22:26, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Other than a preferential name change, Manning has taken no steps to change identity. The name Bradley will remain with him as will his gender throughought his incarceration in an all-male facility. --DHeyward (talk) 02:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A formerly all-male facility. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 00:27, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently the liberal thing to do these days is to pretend that we don't know this person has a penis. Theofficeprankster (talk) 11:16, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly whether or not a person has a penis is a matter entirely for themselves, and it is a gross violation of their privacy to speculate about any person's genitals regardless of their gender. Secondly, I've not seen any reliable sources that state whether Ms Manning has or does not have a penis, and due to point 1 it is exceedingly unlikely there will be any. Thirdly, a persons gender is not related to whether they have or not have a penis - just because gender frequently correleates with biology does not mean that they are the same or that one is a function of the other - correlation does not imply causation. Thryduulf (talk) 12:13, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, not everyone buys into that idea of gender being so easily changeable, as evidenced by the voluminous discussions on all of this here. Second, I see no need or desire to speculate on body parts either, not so much per privacy concerns but rather practicality. Bradley Manning, a man, was the one arrested for passing classified intel. Between detention and trial, Manning spent most of the time at Quantico on suicide watch, conditions not really conducive tho having physical changes done. Tarc (talk) 12:22, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Bigotry, Knowing and Otherwise

I would like to point out that an alarming number of comments in this discussion are upsettingly dismissive of trans people. Comments that equate being trans to declaring one's self some other species or fictional concept abound, as does a focus on legal names that, while presumably well-meaning, demonstrate a painful lack of awareness of the realities of gender transitions and gender identity.

I would respectfully ask that whoever ends up making the final decision on this - and I don't envy you in the least - dismiss these comments entirely. Reasoning motivated by transphobia, whether borne of genuine ignorance or active malice, has no place in the decision-making of this project. While my view is straightforward - the issue of how to handle trans people's identities was settled ages ago, and relitigating it as part of a large and heated political issue is unwise - I would ask that whatever criteria this issue is ultimately decided on, arguments based on ignorance and bigotry not be given any serious consideration. The underlying principles to consider are existing policy - the Manual of Style, our sourcing policies, our policies regarding respect for living people, and whatever other policies that existed before August 22nd, 2013 are relevant.

Efforts to alter those policies on this talk page are inappropriate. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just be careful your comments aren't otherkin-phobic themselves. In my opinion, the issues of name and pronouns have gotten mixed up. The article name issue is not really about whether Manning is male or female, but about whether Manning is "Bradley" or "Chelsea". Having said that, I appreciate that for many transgender people, the change of name is an important thing. StAnselm (talk) 01:29, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And I'd like to congratulate Manning on successfully trolling Wikipedia, mass media, and even own supporters at http://www.bradleymanning.org/ --Niemti (talk) 01:55, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Past precedent

For the record, what we did in previous and less politically charged cases:

  • Chaz Bono - announced transition on June 11th, article was moved the same day. Surgery was not completed at that time, and the change was made based on his publicist's reports of his preferred identity.
  • Lana Wachowski - Edit warred over the course of a year, but changed in December of 2011, months before Lana's first public appearance as a woman.
  • Laura Jane Grace - Announced plans to transition in May of 2012. Article was only touched by one editor for several weeks, who opposed moving. Consensus quickly formed to move the article, and it was done within a month of transition with only the original editor objecting.

Those are the three people I can think of who made transitions after they were already notable enough for articles. In all cases the article was moved quickly, prior to surgery, and upon the public announcement of a gender transition. Precedent, of course, is not binding, but it seems to me helpful to consider what we did in less politically charged circumstances. Phil Sandifer (talk) 03:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is possible that there were far fewer eyes on those articles, so the renaming slipped by. Deep Purple Dreams (talk) 04:29, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. There are lots of possibilities, and as I said, precedent isn't binding. That said, the fact that this is tied to a contentious political issue is a reason to be cautious about the attention this one is getting. In many ways I trust the project's judgment more when there isn't a huge crowd gawking at a topic. Phil Sandifer (talk) 04:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, my arguments for the page being at Bradley Manning have absolutely nothing to do with her not having transitioned yet, or the name change not being "official" or whatever. The situation is simply whether she is better known as Bradley or Chelsea at this moment in time. U-Mos (talk) 11:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I would also take into account the page on Poppy Z. Brite. Totorotroll (talk) 19:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Invasion from reddit

I was wondering why I saw so many usernames I've seen in the past involved with edit wars and this is why - there has been three separate links on reddit to communities vested in seeing this page reverted to its original name. While new users are encouraged, this very vote seems to be a form of vandalism perpetrated by a much larger community of users disinterested in the way wikipedia works. It also begs the question as to whether consensus can be reached with so much outside influence. This is actually a fight that's existed on reddit for quite some time - whether gender can be self identified or not. There is a large group of people on reddit who would like nothing better than to tell the rest of the world what they can and can not do with their own self identification. Outside of giving a rundown on the complexities of gender in relation to biological function, and the system in place created to give gender "meaning", I don't think this argument should be on whether gender identity is "real" or not - and that's what this vote has actually become, a way for people on all sides of the issue to soapbox on whether or not they think a person can change their gender identification. This vote is in my mind a farce, and in no way represents the method in which wikipedia reaches consensus. Honestly, outside of the fact that I personally see this fight as an affront to a group of people that have to struggle to maintain their personal identities every day, and outside of the lack of knowledge when it comes to how gender identity works, I am appalled at what a shitshow this has become. Countered (talk) 06:58, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can you link to the Reddit thread/posts in question? Haipa Doragon (talk) 07:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  http://www.reddit.com/r/Drama/comments/1kw14d/a_wikipedia_edit_war_has_started_brace_yourselves
  http://www.reddit.com/r/sjsucks/comments/1kwdp1/the_sjws_are_having_a_field_day_on_bradley/
  http://www.reddit.com/r/wikipedia/comments/1kvria/i_was_browsing_the_wikipedia_page_of_chelsea/
  http://www.reddit.com/r/editwars/comments/1kw0s2/chelsea_manning_vs_bradley_manning/
  http://www.reddit.com/r/TransphobiaProject/comments/1kx9ji/wikipedians_sure_are_mad_that_bradley_manning_got/
The /r/wikipedia page alone has more than enough votes to have completely shifted the vote on whether or not the name should be changed, and it's clear from the comments which they support. Countered (talk) 07:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see the issue. None of those links are particularly popular (by Reddit standards), the wordings of the link text are neutral, and the discussion on Reddit is two-sided. On the /r/wikipedia page, there seems to be a slight preference for Bradley, but, so what? No one, anywhere, is telling people to vote in the RM discussion (I don't even think it's linked directly), and those few who do/did come here have every right to participate. Considering this talk page is now semi-protected, I doubt this is having much of an effect. -- tariqabjotu 07:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, your point of view has been supported by the influx of reddit users, of course you don't mind it. Regardless of which way they are swaying it - they are swaying it none-the-less. If they had been supporting my point of view, I would (and have) linked to their posts (see the last post I linked). Countered (talk) 07:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
First, this is a high profile and immediate issue in American history so hardly surprising editors would show here to opine. People care more about individuals who have had an effect on history, as opposed to celebrities or musicians. If Bill Clinton decided he was the female Clarissa Clinton would we automatically change that article's title and call Clinton a "she" when it was alleged he was raping and assaulting women? Not unless his defense at the time was he really was a woman so how could he have done so, which of course was not his defense. User:Carolmooredc 11:59, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Please assume good faith; I responded the way I did because that's how I assessed the situation, not because that served my position. I similarly did not accuse you of bringing this up because you want supporting remarks discounted (which is an easy accusation to make). You have no evidence that Reddit has been funneling lots of traffic here, other than "so many usernames I've seen in the past involved with edit wars". I don't follow how that shows an influx of Redditors. And, as you even admit, there are posts that also promote the Chelsea Manning title... so I don't see what the problem is. As I said, most of the posts are worded neutrally, and there are Redditors with a variety of positions, even in the most popular of the posts you linked; in fact, the top-rated comment here that expresses an opinion is rather tame, and sparks a remarkably decent debate about the title that doesn't devolve into the patent soapboxing and prejudice you fear. -- tariqabjotu 13:34, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You are incorrect in the belief that influx of users via a third party campaign will help your position. Quite the contrary, the views of new users recruited to support a particular POV will be ignored, and not help their cause at all. I see very few support posts worded "neutrally", but tons of posts with what User:Surtsicna above called "pure, policy-unrelated bigotry." I think this discussion was finally settled by Sue Gardner's comment, there can be no reasonable doubt as to what Wikipedia policy dictates. This talk page is not the right venue for proposing changes to Wikipedia policy. Josh Gorand (talk) 13:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Your comment had nothing to do with what I said. I, for example, never argued that a third-party campaign helps my position. And I would never say that. Believe it or not, I would like this to be settled by consensus, fair and square. I don't care if this article stays at Chelsea Manning; that outcome would have zero effect on my life, and I understand there are acceptable reasons to do so (now and/or as time goes on). You don't seem to understand this, but discussions on Wikipedia are not wars or battles to be won. They're attempts to find out what we should do about a particular issue, given our vast number of guidelines and policies. And, despite your insistence that this is a black-and-white issue, where "there can be no reasonable doubt as to what Wikipedia policy dictates", there remains enough ambiguity in our set of policies and guidelines that reasonable people may still have disagreements. As has been pointed out a number of times, your eagerness to resort to labels and attacks on, and condescension toward, those who disagree with you is extremely unhelpful. -- tariqabjotu 15:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Per my new subsection below, it would help if people mentioned what Wikiprojects they mentioned it to on Wikipedia itself. Thanks. User:Carolmooredc 16:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Changing an article based on a subject's "personal preferences" or "self-identification" seems a weak argument, and possibly a dangerous precedent. I wonder, if a politician changed from being a Republican to a Democrat would we refer to them as a Democrat during the period in which they were a Republican? If a white person self-identifies as black or Native-American should Wikipedia do so? Chris Fynn (talk) 16:27, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:COMMONAME

WP:COMMONNAME says that when a name changes, "more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change". Hence most support votes above are premature and ignorant of what the text actually says since its too early to notice a trend. Therefore, when editors use this argument I hope they search properly by counting search returns dating from after the name-change announcement. Any admin closure should take al this into account and disregard any votes which count pre-transition announcement sources. Pass a Method talk 16:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find the post alluding to 270 odd recent mentions of "Chelsea Manning" so opining here. Obviously this is big news this week and there will be 270 returns. However, what matters is what Manning is being called a month from now (with this and next week filtered out) and six months from now, and in books to be written in the future. Not to mention if Manning in fact sticks with that name, having changed it once before, or adopts another. User:Carolmooredc 20:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's the point. The article was moved within minutes of the announcement of the new name, so there were no sources to support the idea that sources call the subject Chelsea. We've seen a number of sources use the name in the context of the gender identity switch, but we're still left with inconsistent information about the use of the name in standard articles. As this article from the USA Today shows, the media has not had the seismic shift some people have prophesied. Among the sources that apparently have not switched over to Chelsea Manning (at least yet) are Reuters, BBC News, The New York Times, CBS News. -- tariqabjotu 03:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The article refers this person as "she" because the editors did so. The content may be changed again into "he". By the way, you might want to refrain from calling votes "premature and ignorant" just because of content changes and of people's views about name change. --George Ho (talk) 13:43, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, "Chelsea Manning" has had 36,000 views yesterday while "Bradley Manning" had 16,000. So "Chelsea Manning" is twice as popular as "Bradley Manning". So if we go by popularity on wikipedia, Chelsea would be the obvious choice. Pass a Method talk 14:44, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Because Bradley Manning redirects to Chelsea Manning, only 20,000 of those 36,000 views came directly to Chelsea Manning without going through Bradley Manning. It's impossible to say what the source of that difference is. Perhaps it's because people looking for information about this subject are more likely to search for or type in "Chelsea Manning".
However, it's also possible the difference is influenced by the fact that several articles in the media (as listed at the top of this page) link to Chelsea Manning. It could be because there are a number of people involved on this talk page and various discussions about the naming issue repeatedly looking at the article Chelsea Manning (myself included), which would not require me to go via Bradley Manning (remember, these are individual, not unique, views we're talking about). Perhaps it's because the Main Page links directly to Chelsea Manning. Or perhaps it's because people have heard the name "Chelsea Manning" in the news and have decided to search for that, even though when looking for information on this person they would otherwise search for "Bradley Manning". We just don't know, and I don't think we can read too much into these figures with all the publicity at the moment.
From the Stats FAQ, "I wouldn't base any important decisions on these stats." -- tariqabjotu 15:56, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

List of Wikiprojects that have been alerted

I don't see any mention of this, per WP:Canvass. I looked in a couple likely places and found below. Perhaps people could share if they posted it anywhere so that others can decide if they want to post it on other relevant projects. Feel free to add to list below. User:Carolmooredc 16:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

References to Manning in sources

Sue Gardner mentioned several sources supposedly switching over to Manning's new name. However, they appeared to be mostly blogs and viewpoints that people should accept and use Manning's chosen name. As I said in response to her, it seems better to look at how sources actually refer to Manning in ordinary stories and articles, particularly outside of the announcement of Manning's new identity. (Doing that, we see a direct contradiction to the wishes of the New York Times' public editor, for example, as explained here.) So, I've begun compiling a list; feel free to add to it. (I must say that, at the current time, it is very difficult to find sources from after the announcement that refer to Manning in a context other than the announcement itself, so I hope that, at least over time, this can grow.) -- tariqabjotu 16:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Using Bradley
  • The Independent (dated August 23): "It came just days after a judge at Fort Meade, in Maryland, sentenced Bradley Manning to 35 years in prison [...]"
  • The New York Times (dated August 22 online, August 23 in print): "[...] just as the court-martial of Pfc. Bradley Manning included charges [...]"
  • Reuters (dated August 23): "U.S. soldier Bradley Manning, who was sentenced on Wednesday [...]"
  • BBC (dated August 22 afternoon): "Profile: Bradley Manning"


Using Chelsea
  • The Huffington Post (dated August 24): "Americans have reached no consensus on the fairness of the prison sentence given to Chelsea Manning"
  • AP (dated August 26): "The Associated Press will henceforth use Pvt. Chelsea E. Manning and female pronouns for the soldier formerly known as Bradley Manning, in accordance with her wishes to live as a woman."

Re-posting what I said above in the other section about the usages I found... (reorganized a bit to match what tariqabjotu did.) - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 18:48, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Using Bradley
  • CNN's video " (dated August 22) [...] CNN will continue to refer to him as Bradley Manning since he has not yet legally changed his name [...]"
  • Margaret Sullivan's blog, while talking about why the media should change, linked to the New York Times Manual of Styles which has provision to keep a newsworthy name against the subject's wish (Unless a former name is newsworthy or pertinent, use the name and pronouns (he, his, she, her, hers) preferred by the transgender person - original emphasis removed)
  • Reuters (dated August 23) "Bradley Manning, the U.S. soldier sentenced this week for leaking 700,000 classified documents to WikiLeaks in the biggest breach of secret data in the country's history, could soon be entangled in another legal showdown [...]" (the rest of article only uses Manning, and apart from stating Manning's wish to live as Chelsea, has no mention of either of the first names)
  • ABC News (dated August 22) "[...] Military officials say Bradley Manning has returned to a prison at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., to serve his 35-year prison sentence for giving mountains of classified material to WikiLeaks [...]" (also mentions Manning's wish to live as Chelsea)
  • CBS News (dated August 23) title: "Bradley Manning identifies as transgender: Transitioning explained"
Using Chelsea

I think it's best if it gets summed up by this USA Today article: Media torn in Manning 'he' or 'she' pronoun debate

WP:BLP Issue

I have seen the issue of WP:BLP pop up time and time again in the move discussion so I want to know is it valid to say that the article's title move violates WP:BLP? If so where does it state this or if not where do people see it as saying it? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:21, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This has already been addressed and you already dismissed the answer to your questions. Sportfan5000 (talk) 04:01, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Legality and notability

I found another case of a person not having a legal name change but their article reflecting the name tthey chose in the media. 

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bobby_Jindal


His "real", and legal name is Piyush Jindal, yet because of notability of his nickname in the media, it's been changed. There isn't even a rule utilized on this page either, and it's been like this for more than a year. Countered (talk) 18:17, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OTHERSTUFF, lets focus on this article. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:22, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
because of notability of his nickname in the media Yes. Exactly. The article is entitled Bobby Jindal not because he just decided to call himself that, but because reliable sources actually call him that. -- tariqabjotu 18:31, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Meaning of "no consensus" in this case?

If the result of this discussion is "no consensus", does that mean the title should be Bradley Manning or Chelsea Manning?

Obviously, the title is currently controversial (a contender for most controversial title ever). However, it only became controversial on August 22, 2013. Prior to that the title was stable at Bradley Manning. It just happens that the edit wheel war over the title happened to end up at Chelsea Manning, so the formal RM was created as moving Chelsea Manning to Bradley Manning. However, the real discussion is about whether the title should be one or the other, not whether Chelsea Manning should be renamed to Bradley Manning (the distinction is subtle but matters if the result of the discussion is "no consensus").

If there is no consensus, it seems to me it should be reverted to the title that was stable before it became controversial. That means Bradley Manning. Yes, I also believe that should be the title, at least for now while that's how the subject is referred most commonly in reliable sources, but that should not undermine my point/argument at all: when there is no consensus in an RM discussion, the closer should restore the most recent stable name, which in this case is Bradley Manning. --B2C 03:12, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would think it would be Bradley Manning because there was no consensus to move to Chelsea in the first place. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:18, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There is evidence that BD2412 (talk · contribs), one of the closers, already understands this. -- tariqabjotu 03:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we need to second guess here, or start proposing what should be done if X, or Y, or Z. We're just going to have to trust the closing team. I also hope this doesn't go to move review...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 05:05, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Re User:Tariqabjotu's comment "There is evidence that BD2412 (talk · contribs), one of the closers, already understands this." — I think there's a problem regarding this. Please see the discussion I had with User:BD2412 in the section on Jimbo's Talk page at [10] starting with BD2412's message of 12:28, 27 August 2013. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:58, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Since my name is being invoked here, let me be clear: it is really of no moment to the discussion at hand to speculate about what closing admins "understand". The arguments with respect to this question have been raised at various points on this page, and in various other forums, and will be given full consideration at the appropriate time. Cheers! bd2412 T 16:47, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@BD2412: I'd hardly say I'm speculating. Your sandbox says Although the article has since been locked at a particular title, the presumption is that the title it had before any moves took place is correct, unless there is a consensus of the community to change that title. If you had/have an issue with people alluding to your notes, even obliquely, you should have written them off-wiki. It's still not too late to do that. -- tariqabjotu 19:22, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
From my perspective, that is speculating. It is basically summarizing the argument as it has been made in the discussion. bd2412 T 20:21, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The question I asked BD2412 at Jimbo's talk page wasn't about his sandbox, it was about his comment at WP:ANI[11] where he wrote, "I interpret WP:BRD as requiring a consensus in favor of a title different than the one that existed yesterday, in order for such a change to be effected." I asked the question which title is "the one that existed yesterday"? Instead of answering, BD2412 made a comment about his sandbox. If that was a mistake, User:BD2412 has a chance to clear that up by answering the question here. --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:12, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
User:Kww has since helpfully reminded me that BRD is not policy - although it is, obviously, a very helpful principle. Cheers! bd2412 T 00:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)'[reply]
No but WP:TITLECHANGES is: Any potentially controversial proposal to change a title should be advertised at Wikipedia:Requested moves, and consensus reached before any change is made. Debating controversial titles is often unproductive, and there are many other ways to help improve Wikipedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:10, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It really should be and it has been treated as such for several years. Space simian (talk) 16:11, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is about the time when I remind myself that I am on a Wikipedia talk page and try to take responses such as User:BD2412 (and apparently the other closer User:KWW's part) with good humor. I kinda have an idea now how the close is going to go, so there won't be much suspense in it for me. Cheers. (P.S. Hi User:SlimVirgin.) --Bob K31416 (talk) 20:03, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have no idea "how this close is going to go". Over eighteen hours of discussion remain before closure, and other than the brief and peripheral exchanges on our respective talk pages, I have not conferred with the other admins. bd2412 T 20:16, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If there is "no consensus", the article stays at the current title (Chelsea Manning), also because of the evident BLP problems that the other title would mean, specifically not harming the article subject. Josh Gorand (talk) 17:21, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No because there was no consensus to change the name of the article to Chelsea in the first place. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:06, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. It was moved without consensus, so the default would be to move back if consensus is not reached - to do otherwise would set a worrying precedent for controversial page moves (wheel war, lock page, put it to a vote, vote fails so new name stays). Then we're back to the BLP concerns and whether they over-ride the consensus or lack thereof. I don't envy anyone making a final decision here. StuartH (talk) 04:57, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Supplementary !vote rationale

by User:Morwen and User:David Gerard. Please comment at bottom.

It is our position that Wikipedia policies and guidelines (particularly WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY), and precedent of previous similar page moves, mandates the correct location of the article as being Chelsea Manning; that this was true at the time of the article move and true at the time of the BLP action to keep it there, and remains true now. As editors who are familiar with trans issues this seemed sufficiently obvious to us that we did not think it required extensive clarification; but some editors, who are unfamiliar with the topic (as many people in the wider world are), have challenged this.

There have also been repeated claims that we have not explained our rationales in sufficient detail for the questioners to understand; this is an attempt to supply said detail, at length, in the hope of clearing up matters.

MOS:IDENTITY

Firstly, let us look at the specific guidance that MOS:IDENTITY has regarding trans people. At the time of writing, this was:

Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman"), pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life.

If we look back in the history of the page we can see it has been stable for a long time. By the end of 2009 it had achieved nearly its current form:

Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to using the gendered nouns, pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies when referring to any phase of that person's life. [12]

We don't think there's any serious dispute that Manning's "latest expressed gender self-identification" is female. Questions of Manning's inferred legal name or medical transition status are irrelevant to this.

Although none of the examples (and we note the examples were added later) are personal names here, "Bradley Manning" is a gendered (proper) noun on the plain meanings of words. If we refer to Wikipedia's own page on the name Bradley, we see that all the people listed who bear it as a first name identify as male, and our infobox asserts that the name is male. There is apparently some marginal evidence it might be coming into use as a neutral name for children born today, but this is not terribly relevant when applied to Private Manning - its usage 25 years ago (among Manning's peer group) is what counts. It is clear from the chat logs (see below) that Manning believes it to be strongly gendered.

MOS:IDENTITY demands that Manning not be "referred to" with gendered nouns that are contrary to expressed preference. So, Manning should not be referred to as "Bradley Manning", under any text covered by the Manual of Style. (This allows mention of the fact that Manning used to be known as Bradley Manning, because that it itself is not a use of the term as a reference per se)

It has been claimed by various editors that this section of the Manual of Style does not apply to article titles, and is limited to the actual article text. This is unfounded. The MoS section "Article titles" explicitly notes:

The guidance contained elsewhere in the MoS, particularly in the section below on punctuation, applies to all parts of an article, including the title. (our emphasis)

WP:COMMONNAME is being used as a justification for the article to be moved back to "Bradley Manning". The situation is developing rapidly, but we have a good number of press sources now using "Chelsea Manning" consistently, with some hold-outs still using "Bradley Manning". The British press, following Leveson Inquiry guidance (see below), moved quickly (even right-wing outlets, e.g. the Daily Mail, changing within hours), and the US press has been moving over the course of the past few days. Although MOS:IDENTITY is already sufficient, it is increasingly clear that "Chelsea Manning" now is the "common" name, regardless of whether this was the case on the 22nd.

WP:COMMONNAME contains several caveats:

Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources.

Using a former name of a trans person who has met the criteria for MOS:IDENTITY seems to meet the definition of "inaccurate" here. The general point of WP:COMMONNAME is where there is a pool of titles that it would be acceptable for the article to be at, you pick the common name; it does not rule things in when they would otherwise not be acceptable.

It also states that

more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change.

Throughout the project, it is generally understood that WP:COMMONNAME is a default principle, to apply when no other good practice can be found or developed. Far from being straightforward, it is supplemented by a vast number of subpages which either clarify what is meant by "common name", or override it in specific fields where a more technical name is considered helpful, in the way that MOS:IDENTITY does.

We therefore consider it clear that the correct title of this article, under the Manual of Style, is Chelsea Manning.

Precedent

The earliest article about a trans person on Wikipedia we have been able to find is Wendy Carlos. The history shows that there was some debate about pronouns and wording of the article, but there has never been any question that the article should be anywhere else. Carlos, despite having achieved notability under her old name, had been transitioned for several decades by the time her Wikipedia article was created, however, so this does not present a useful precedent for how Wikipedia handles recent transitions.

We can think of three particularly famous people to have transitioned in the public eye in recent years: Chaz Bono, Laura Jane Grace, and Lana Wachowski. Let's have a look at the naming of these articles:

Chaz Bono
The article "Chastity Bono" was created on March 4, 2002. It was moved to "Chaz Bono" on June 11, 2009 [13], the same day the news that Bono had transitioned broke. Although discussed on the talk page, the article has remained in the same place since, and no WP:RM was filed.
Laura Jane Grace
The article "Tom Gabel" was originally created as a redirect to the band "Against Me" on March 24, 2006. It became a stub about the lead singer of the band on May 21, 2008. The news that the singer would transition and take the name "Laura Jane Grace" was reported on May 9, 2012, and resulted in an immediate flurry of activity on the article. If we examine the wording in the Rolling Stone article at the time more closely, we see that it was announced as a future intent (it was also not entirely clear whether the subject was dropping the "Gabel"), specifically that "Gabel will eventually take the name Laura Jane Grace" [14].
There was an inconclusive discussion on the talk page, and a move to Laura Jane Grace on May 28, 2012 was reverted later that day. The article was moved again to Laura Jane Grace on June 6, 2012, after more evidence had arisen regarding an actual change of name. This caused a small amount of protest on the talk page, but the dispute was not escalated, and the article has remained there to this day.
The Wachowskis
The article about the Wachowskis (directors of The Matrix) was created on May 5, 2001, under the name "Wachowski brothers". They invariably work together, and have never had separate articles. Unlike the other cases, there had been rumours regarding Lana's transition for a long time before the subject officially went public with it. The first edit regarding this was made on May 4, 2004. [15] For a long time the consensus was that sources like this were not sufficiently reliable to report on, and there was certainly no evidence that the elder sibling had publically transitioned. The films they worked on continued to have the "Wachowski Brothers" as their screen credit, including Speed Racer (2008). In 2011 it was noticed that the name "Lana" was being used in press for "Cloud Atlas", and a requests for comment started regarding whether the article should be moved. This met broad popular acclaim, and it was moved.

The common element to all three cases is that Wikipedia changed the article name promptly once sufficiently good sources were available, including personal statements of transitioning.

WP:BLP

We have also invoked WP:BLP. The BLP policy is a set of general principles rather than a detailed guide to implementation, so it might not be immediately apparent to people unfamiliar with trans issues how this should work.

Biographies of living persons ("BLP"s) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy.

Due regard for trans people's privacy usually includes not mentioning birth names. Birth names are considered highly sensitive information, not to be shared lightly, and we expect most trans people would be highly distressed to see their old name prominently in the article - deliberate use of an old name when a person has expressed a strong wish for the use of their new name being a common mode of personal attack upon transsexuals in the wider world, in the same manner as deliberate misgendering (as can be seen on the wiki itself, where a common tactic for anti-transgender vandals is "outing" someone with their old name and/or changing pronouns. This includes a recent attempted "doxxing" of one of us in the present case by a banned user.). For example, in a recent report into the practices of the British press, Lord Justice Leveson found that [16]

The use of 'before' names as well as photographs of the individuals in question not only causes obvious distress but can place them at risk.

In cases where the subject achieved fame or notoriety before a name change the transition is part of the narrative. For Chelsea Manning we accept it would be impossible to suppress her birth name entirely (and Manning's latest statement concedes that in practical terms, it is unlikely, despite Manning's sincerely expressed preferences). But inability to protect the subject's privacy completely does not mean we should not make our best effort: we should go to the closest thing that is possible, and give Chelsea Manning primacy.

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist,

Tabloid, sensationalist, journalism is far more likely to be presenting old names as "real" names and self-chosen names as some kind of nickname; tabloids are not a role model for Wikipedia to emulate.

or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives: the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment.

As User:Sue Gardner has pointed out, one of most compelling points is the prospect of harm. We quote her here:

I will take a crack at the question about harm. Recapping: BLP says the possibility of harm to living subjects must be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This matters because BLP trumps COMMONNAME. (I am setting aside the question of MOS:IDENTITY for the purposes of this comment.)
It is reasonable to believe there's a possibility Manning could be harmed by Wikipedia retitling the article Chelsea Manning to Bradley Manning, because she made a formal announcement explicitly asking that "starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun." Wikipedia is an important site: the #5 most-popular in the world, read by a half-billion people every month, more widely-read than any other news or information site. If Wikipedia were to call its article Bradley Manning, Manning might believe that Wikipedia is rejecting her requested name and/or gender characterization. It is not uncommon for people who feel dissonance between their experienced gender identity and the gender they were assigned at birth to feel significant emotional distress, at least some of which is due to how they're treated by society. (See this article.) And indeed, in Manning's May 2010 chat logs she describes herself as having GID (gender identity disorder), as having had three breakdowns, as being "in an awkward state," "uncomfortable with my role in society," "scared of being misunderstood" and "isolated as fuck." She says: "i wouldn't mind going to prison for the rest of my life, or being executed so much, if it wasn't for the possibility of having pictures of me… plastered all over the world press… as boy…" I think it's clear that Chelsea Manning hopes and expects that people will use the name and pronoun she asked them to, and that to the extent people do not, they risk causing further trauma to someone who is clearly already significantly distressed. Sue Gardner (talk) 03:00, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

It is relevant that, although commenting on the article talk page in her capacity as an ordinary user, Sue Gardner deals at length with BLP issues at Wikipedia's interface with the wider world in her role as WMF Executive Director, and so has relevant expertise in and insight into such issues that should be considered.

Furthermore,

BLPs should be written responsibly, cautiously, and in a dispassionate tone [...] biographies must be fair to their subjects at all times.

It is neither cautious, dispassionate nor fair to ignore someone's express stated wishes about how they should be known, when that sort of change is hardly unprecedented and is a result of a condition recognised by the scientific-medical-legal-social-consensus. It is not an area that compromise is possible on - we have to pick one.

Keeping the page at Chelsea Manning is consistent with the style guide, BLP and the usage of sources. Going against all three to move it back to Bradley Manning would be seen as a political statement that they are wrong: that trans people are mentally ill, and/or are delusional. It constitutes gratuitous offence: offence that is easily avoidable, significantly harmful and adds nothing to coverage of the subject, and that therefore should be avoided. Wikipedia should not do that, and policy and precedent strongly support that it should not.

Morwen (talk) 14:50, 27 August 2013 (UTC); David Gerard (talk) 15:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Comments on rationale
  • Re "As editors who are familiar with trans issues this seemed sufficiently obvious to us that we did not think it required extensive clarification" — Please recognize that there are other points of view when it comes to deciding what is the more appropriate title, and that changes to the long-standing title of Bradley Manning should be done only with consensus when there is an objection. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This did in fact occur, though it was pretty quick (don't have the diff to hand, have posted it repeatedly before). The key point is that (a) it was clearly right (b) WP:BLP mandates not leaving it wrong - local consensus on a talk page cannot override BLP. I do appreciate this can be disconcerting in an area people don't understand - David Gerard (talk) 15:33, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Your arrogance knows no bounds. -- tariqabjotu 15:39, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(I'm actually at work right now and probably out this evening, but promise to respond to stuff here, expand further, etc in due course.) - David Gerard (talk) 15:37, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for writing this. Having the policies explained by folk more familiar with them is very much appreciated. —me_and 15:47, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, thank you for this detailed rationale which I fully support. Josh Gorand (talk) 16:03, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't have time at the moment to write a fuller response. However, I am perplexed by the idea that this was co-written by the two editors who performed moves to Chelsea Manning and protected the article at that title. Why you two weren't capable of coming up with your own independent responses (David, in particular, who repeatedly rebuffed any editor who dared ask for one), and instead framed this in terms of what "we" did is highly disconcerting. It, at the very least, gives the impression that there was collusion to put this title in place. Surely, you realize that this format will raise a few eyebrows. It doesn't help either that you start off with the arrogant presupposition that As editors who are familiar with trans issues this seemed sufficiently obvious to us that we did not think it required extensive clarification; but some editors, who are unfamiliar with the topic (as many people in the wider world are), have challenged this. I'm getting the sinking feeling that we have been manipulated. That MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline that Morwen, at least, admits she can "partially take credit for" doesn't help either. It marks a shameful chapter in Wikipedia's history when two administrators can collude to enforce an outcome and then when presented with ample evidence that their position is highly controversial, and seemingly in the minority, argue that their actions were clearly right, except to us peons who just don't "understand". There are understandable, valid rationales presented on this talk page for having the article at Chelsea Manning, but I'd like to think that even a great many of those who support the Chelsea Manning name can realize that this attitude is disgusting. -- tariqabjotu 16:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • WP:BLP states right there in the intro:
      We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be explicitly attributed to a reliable, published source, which is usually done with an inline citation. Contentious material about living persons (or in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.
    • As cited above, titles count as part of the article. That's what I mean by "WP:BLP mandates not leaving it wrong" - David Gerard (talk) 16:32, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Morwen writing part of the guideline is irrelevant; it's an accepted guideline, and that's the point. I co-wrote the first draft of WP:BLP (with SlimVirgin), but that's irrelevant to its acceptance - David Gerard (talk) 16:43, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • And we didn't actually communicate on the issue at the time, except on this page, FWIW (though we talked about it soon afterward and since); "collusion" appears to be a reading that assumes bad faith - David Gerard (talk) 16:44, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I notice that User:Tariqabjotu in the above comments and their corresponding edit summaries accuses user:David Gerard of "arrogance", being "disgusting", having "manipulated" others and "colluding to enforce". These are completely unacceptable comments. Josh Gorand (talk) 16:39, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
David, I will do no such thing. A spade is a spade. When asked about what caused you to consider the Bradley Manning name a BLP violation, for three days, your best answer was "I already told you" and accusations of IDHT. When asked to point to where exactly you already explained yourself, you pointed to a thread where, clearly, no such explanation exists. No, instead, in a statement delivered through someone else you argue that the action was "sufficiently obvious" that it shouldn't have required explanation. You continually refuse to consider the idea that your interpretation of BLP might be out of touch with most of the rest of the community, or that it's even controversial at all (despite five days of heated debate). You bombastically argue that The key point is that...[the move to Chelsea Manning] was clearly right. Further, when anyone so much as mentions the idea that Morwen moved the article hastily or before consensus was achieved, you are quick to jump in and argue that those assertions are "factually incorrect"... as if we peasants can't draw our own conclusions from the relevant thread as it was at the time of Morwen's move. The adjectives I used were entirely appropriate, and you can abandon all effort to get me to rescind them. -- tariqabjotu 20:06, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • User:Morwen and User:David Gerard, I originally intended to read through all of your "supplementary rationale" first, think it over and then post a comment. But I only came this far:
"As editors who are familiar with trans issues this seemed sufficiently obvious to us that we did not think it required extensive clarification; but some editors, who are unfamiliar with the topic (as many people in the wider world are), have challenged this."
I think this statement is incredibly arrogant and therefore offensive. It reads as if you (as promoters of political correctness towards transgender issues) were standing on a higher level of morality, and that users "unfamiliar with the topic" were, in that sense, somewhat clueless dumbasses, whose opinions therefore were objectively wrong and should be discarded of. My perception is quite the opposite: You are turning this into a political debate by (in my opinion) needlessly jumping on that "transgender paragraph" at MOS:IDENTITY, combined with WP:BLP.
To me, there is no "transgender issue" at all. I based my above reasoning why I think that the page should be moved back to "Bradley Manning" purely on WP:COMMONNAME. There are books like "The Passion of Bradley Manning: The Story Behind the Wikileaks Whistleblower", "Truth and Consequences: The U. S. Vs. Bradley Manning", "Private: Bradley Manning, WikiLeaks, and the Biggest Exposure of Official Secrets in American History" or "The Radicalisation of Bradley Manning". My perception is that "this Wikileaks whistleblower" is a famous person still best known as "Bradley Manning" (because contrary to a new pope or king, the name change did not make worldwide breaking news headlines [but e.g. his conviction produced those]), which should also be reflected here on Wikipedia(In the light of AP, the world's biggest news agency, adopting the "Chelsea Manning" term, I have changed my opinion about the "common name", see above) Please note that for my rationale, it is of zero importance why this person changed the name from Bradley to Chelsea (as a precedent, I had Cat Stevens in mind).--FoxyOrange (talk) 16:27, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
To quote editor Thryduulf, "I don't think the Cat Stevens article is a good case study to use because that article is at the title of the stage name he used at the height of his musical notability. If I am reading the article right, his personal name was Steven Demetre Georgiou from birth until he converted to Islam and became Yusuf Islam. He also appears to treat his religious conversion as a new beginning, not saying that he was always Yusuf Islam. A change of name of that sort is different from a person expressing that their true identity (not just name) has always been different from that which they presented as. Neither is more or less right, but I think that "I was Christian but am now a Buddhist" is sufficiently different to "I am a man, although my body looked female, I have realised that I have always been male" to make the article about person A a poor one to look to when deciding how to write about person B." Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:29, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The wording I criticized already starts at "As editors who are familiar with trans issues". As I pointed out, to me it is completely irrelevant what you are familiar with. The introduction to your supplementary rationale reads as if non-experts would not understand you anyway (which is why I took offense and did not read any further).--FoxyOrange (talk) 16:49, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'd say leave a correction here, and the above text fixed, for all its defects - although sincere, the commenter didn't actually read as far as the part answering their further objection - David Gerard (talk) 16:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't quite understand why two editors (ones who went through with the initial controversial pagemoves sans consensus, no less) feel the need to post their opinion in a special section away from the rest of the RM discussion. There is a lengthy discussion above which you have contributed heavily to already. Do you intend for us to take your opinion more seriously than other editors and provide it with a special spotlight? I think moving part of the discussion down here will have a chilling effect on consensus building, fewer editors will feel free to comment on the tome you just posted, and will simply split the conversation into two locations. NewAccount4Me (talk) 16:46, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Because Morwen made the move and I made it again and locked it there, and people asked why. And we've been threatened with every sanction under the sun for having behaved according to policy and practice. And we've answered in pieces repeatedly, so the evidence is a joined-up response was warranted - David Gerard (talk) 16:50, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Sorry if I came across a bit harsh. I can see that rereading my comment. However, now that you've explained yourself so thoroughly, perhaps take a deep breath and a step back? The initial moves, your initial commentary in this new section, and the fact that you made the section at all makes me feel like you (and a few more editors on both sides, really) are having some WP:OWN issues. The editors closing the RM request are well aware of your position, as is everyone else who has been contributing. NewAccount4Me (talk) 17:01, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that many of us, including both the people who made the initial moves and myself for that matter, have participated and made our voices known very well. It might help to take a pause for a few days and let new voices chime in. CaseyPenk (talk) 17:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is a lot of presumption by those “in the know” that using a trans person’s original name is offensive and they are the sole arbitrators of that judgment call. One need not be African American to know that being called a nigger is patently offensive. What about calling a dwarf a midget? Did you know the term “gyped” is offensive to Gypsies? How about eenie meenie miny moe? While I’m not doubting that proponents that “Bradley=offensive” argument are sincere, this just doesn’t pass the porn test of “I know it when I see it”. Through his lawyer Manning said he prefers both male/female pronouns (and possibly Bradley/Chelsea?) depending on which phase of his life is being discussed. This preference actually goes against the guideline which says the latest identified pronoun should be used throughout a subject’s biography. If using “Bradley” is offensive to referring to the “female” Manning, then using “she” to refer to the “male” Manning expressly goes against Manning’s wishes.Two kinds of pork (talk) 19:17, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • As has been noted elsewhere, the attorney's statement is ambiguous, possibly deliberately so (BD2412 I think it was who suggested this) about Manning's views towards pronoun usage for the period of her life prior to 22 August - it could be read as meaning that she is resigned to such usage, isn't bothered about such usage, or requests such usage. Personally I suspect it is the first of these, but I am no more qualified to make that determination than you or any other editor here is. What is clear is that there is no evidence presented that using female pronouns for the period of time before she made the public announcement of her gender would be something she would find offensive. As for the "I know it when I see it", I don't understand the point you are making - if you personally don't know whether something is offensive to a given group of people, why would you doubt it when others who do know, including members of that group of people, say it is? Thryduulf (talk) 19:28, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • If the media sees fit to use "Bradley", I fail to see how the usage should be offensive in general. Especially for Manning. If a preponderance of the media uses Chelsea, then we will have the answer. Newspapers and the like have been debating "taste" far longer than Wikipedia has.Two kinds of pork (talk) 20:03, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well done, folks. Excellently and cogently presented. I think the only further argument that needs to be fostered is the WP:SELFPUB rationale; specifically, that since WP:BLP mandates that the most relevant sources be used, and the MOS:IDENTITY guidelines state a given self-identification is the correct frame for both title and content, that we should make the assumption that a self-declaration IS the best source for us to rely upon vis-a-vis a given person's gender identity by way of WP:SELFPUB. A different comment above seems to claim this as an "extraordinary claim" but I find that assertion to be extraordinary; no individual knows you and your internal identity better than you yourself. As far as I'm concerned this line of reasoning is a laser clear path to the end of the discussion and I cannot come up with a rational counter-argument that does not rely on personal or inherent bias. QuackCD (talk) 19:36, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Regarding the substance of the points made, I see some flaws.
MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline that, as I understand it, was largely shaped by the LGBT WikiProject. While many such guidelines shaped by WikiProjects exist, this is a much broader discussion than the one that led to the guideline. For that reason, our hands should not be tied to adhering to it strictly if consensus here suggests otherwise. I also don't buy the idea that MOS:IDENTITY is supposed to cover article titles (as it explicitly says WP:AT should govern them) or that personal names were supposed to be covered under gendered nouns (given the examples provided). Why you feel content accepting WP:AT's reference to the MoS, but not the MoS's reference to WP:AT is beyond me; to me, it clearly seems like a local consensus deferring to a global consensus when conflicts arise.
Much of the rest of your comments about MOS:IDENTITY and about precedent in general suggest an unsubstantiated idea that transgender people are somehow different from everyone else. They suggest that a transgender person's choice of changing their name means much more than anyone else's. The same argument that a subject wants to put their old name in the past applies to virtually everyone who changes their name. And, yet consensus has shown (Cat Stevens, Lily Allen, etc.) that we need not always move our article if sources don't do otherwise. You reference to WP:COMMONNAME in your explanation borders on insulting, as if your prognostication absolves you of your missteps.
Your BLP explanation, as I expected, is quite out there. As you eventually admit, the name Bradley Manning is public knowledge and it's never going to disappear. The idea that having it as an article title just hours after the world knew the subject solely as such is a violation of privacy is, frankly, absurd. I already responded to Sue's suggestion of how the name "Bradley Manning" will cause harm to a person who probably won't see a computer for decades, so I don't need to repeat that. And, as I've said before, your interpretation that BLP compels us to rename articles to meet subjects' preferred names seems out of touch with consensus, as demonstrated with similar name changes at some other articles. As before, I have yet to see any evidence that transexual people should be afforded different treatment in this regard. That a Justice Leveson or GLAAD wants us to doesn't seem to be relevant; we have our own policies and guidelines, and just as we wouldn't allow any political, religious, or advocacy group to shape our articles or force us to do anything, we shouldn't allow pro-LGBT groups to decide matters here. We should all be able to separate our personal agendas from what Wikipedia policies and guidelines enjoin us to do. -- tariqabjotu 20:46, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with much of what Tariqabjotu has said, so I will not repeat the arguments. Like FoxyOrange, I also feel insulted by the opening paragraph of the joint statement, which suggests that editors unfamiliar with trans issues cannot pose valid arguments in this debate.
I would like to add more examples of cases where we have not moved the article title, despite the clear wishes of the article subject: Burma vs. Myanmar, Snoop Dogg vs. Snoop Lion, Jay-Z vs. Jay Z. These have been mentioned before, but have not yet been fully discussed in the current debate. Edge3 (talk) 22:31, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
None of those people are expressing a lifetime change of gender - "I always have felt I was female". In fact none of those examples are dealing with gender at all, and the examples of those articles that do deal with changing gender we have followed the same course. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:37, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Tariqabjotu, this has nothing to do with which group brought forward Mos:Identity and who cares if they had? It's been accepted by the rest of the community and speaks to respecting a living person coming out as transgender. That's a huge step for anyone to make when there is such hostility and violence directed specifically at trans individuals and trans women in particular. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:37, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Except WP:MOS has nothing to do with article titles, that fact still stands. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:58, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That argument has already been addressed by editors who are considered some of the truest authorities on these issues. MosIdentity does, in fact state that "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns, pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life." I think common sense is that when international media follow a living person's wishes to be called by the name she chooses, as has happened many times before (including stage names and nom de plumes) Wikipedia has no issue doing the same. In fact it's such a core aspect of a person's identity the name change when reported on by reliable sources should take effect immediately like any good online encyclopedia should. Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • re " that this was true at the time of the article move and true at the time of the BLP action to keep it there, and remains true now" - Wrong, wrong, and wrong. This entire section seems to have been started haphazardly by an admin desperate to justify his misuse of admin powers. The only point here even remotely worth considering is the MOS:IDENT one. Regarding the part of WP:MOS "The guidance contained elsewhere in the MoS, particularly in the section below on punctuation, applies to all parts of an article, including the title" - Some folks seem to use this as justification for changing the name in the title. But MOS:IDENT deals with pronouns not actual names. If there was a pronoun in this title, I would agree the pronoun should reflect the female identification, but there isn't a pronoun in the titles; hence, MOS:IDENT doesn't apply. NickCT (talk) 22:43, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think this whole thing is crazy, what is going to stop these two admin to do this same thing the next heated debate comes up? Are we going to make m ore splashes in the media as a result? The fact was that as soon as Manning chose the name "Chelsea" for himself you went into action against policy, against consensus of Wikipedia and make the choice yourself Morwen and David Gerard to go ahead with it. Manning has been documented as being Bradley already, and the military will not accept the name Chelsea, so really what is the subject more notable for? Also and this is the last thing for people to think about, would this discussion be the same if Manning had killed and tortured children as his crime and changed his name? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:46, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Common sense will likely lead the way as it has in this case. Those two admins arguably did exactly the right thing and for exactly the right reasons. Who cares if the media mentions Wikipedia? They already have many complimenting the good work in respecting her wishes. There is no evidence that the military won't accept a legal name change when it gets one, in fact it's highly unlikely that they will do anything but honor it. The notability issue is moot, the BLP is here and it remains a BLP, ergo we should respect her personage and use her gender-identity as stated just as we do on other BLPs. The nature of the crimes is a red herring. The issues remain the same wether one sees her as a hero or traitor. Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:09, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for taking the time to write this excellent summary. I'd have to agree that a clear sighted reading of policy, together with the expectation of very high page views for Chelsea's article, left you no choice but to act as you did.FeydHuxtable (talk) 23:55, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • After following this debate I'm starting to think moving the page quickly was the right thing to do and that there probably should be a special exception in WP:COMMONNAME in the future for this type of situation.
However, I don't think it is all that obvious. Private Manning is notable for her deeds as Bradley Manning and it is reasonable to expect that those looking for her article expect to find it under Bradley Manning for quite some time, especially if reliable sources would have continued to use Bradley. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and a Wikipedia title is not used to address the subject nor does it necessarily reflect the subjects currently used name, in fact it fairly often does not. In particular it is not a guideline on how to address people (although it seems that non-wikipedians might not understand this [17]). WP:COMMONNAME exists for good reasons: it is an easy to follow rule that promotes neutrality and avoids conflict, confusion and the risk of causing information loops. What complicates matters in this particular case is that using Bradley might make it seem like we maliciously deny her the right to choose her own gender identity. Unless there is a very good reason for doing so, not changing the title to Chelsea seems unnecessarily cruel and in this case I think that outweighs the other considerations (especially since non-wikipedians seldom understand Wikipedia policy, in my experience).
I still do not see the relevance of WP:BLP in this particular case. If we weren't allowed to cause "emotional distress" to subjects of BLP:s there wouldn't be any. WP:BLP is, as I understand it, mostly about avoiding unsubstantiated claims (i.e. libel). In particular, I don't think we would have caused much distress if the article had been kept at Bradley for the duration of the move request. —Space simian (talk) 01:09, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There's a whole section above explaining more how to apply BLP in cases like these. The former name is really not an issue as long as the redirect points to this article. Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but I don't find that section convincing. —Space simian (talk) 01:29, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps I should try to explain this better? As I wrote, the title is not used to address the subject nor reflect her current name and the privacy argument above makes little sense considering that everyone is already familiar with the name Bradley not to mention the article itself begins with "born Bradley Edward Manning" and that will have to remain in order for the article to remain comprehensible. —Space simian (talk) 17:20, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The title is Manning's name, she is a living person who has clearly expressed that she feels she has been a woman all along and wants to be referred to with female pronouns and as Chelsea. The birth name can certainly be kept just as it is on hundreds of articles where there is a different birth name. This is a basic respect for a living person's wishes, just as we call Lady Gaga and so many others by the name they choose. As a transwoman it's particularly disrespectful to call her by a male name or pronouns - as to discredit her in some way. Sportfan5000 (talk) 03:26, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Morwen and David Gerard. Thank you so much for writing this up: I think it's clear and useful, and I agree with your conclusion that keeping the page named Chelsea Manning is consistent with MOS:IDENTITY, WP:BLP and increasingly also with WP:COMMONNAME. I also agree that at this point moving back to titling the article Bradley Manning would add nothing valuable to the encyclopedia, and could be gratuitously offensive to Manning and to other transgender people. I do want to elaborate a little WRT WP:COMMONNAME. To the extent that it matters how reliable sources refer to Chelsea Manning, it's worth noting (as pointed out elsewhere on this page) that the New York Times and the Associated Press have both now announced they intend to use Chelsea Manning on first reference going forward. Deputy NY Times copy desk editor Susan Wessling wrote that “Starting tomorrow, we will move to a new formulation: … Chelsea Manning, formerly known as Pfc. Bradley Manning… ‘Private Manning’ on later references, and ‘she’ for the pronoun.”" and the AP wrote that "The Associated Press will henceforth use Pvt. Chelsea E. Manning and female pronouns for the soldier formerly known as Bradley Manning, in accordance with her wishes to live as a woman." The AP decision is particularly significant because AP provides copy for more than 1,700 newspapers in 120 countries, as well as about 5,000 broadcast outlets. It's not impossible for media organizations to change AP copy, but most don't, which means the AP decision will result in many, many papers and broadcast outlets starting to use the name Chelsea Manning and the female pronouns, now. Sue Gardner (talk) 05:24, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Retort to supplementary !vote rationale

by RA (✍). Please comment at bottom.

As editors who are familiar with trans issues this seemed sufficiently obvious to us that we did not think it required extensive clarification; but some editors, who are unfamiliar with the topic (as many people in the wider world are), have challenged this.

I don't like beginning with something as negative as this, but this is a particularly arrogant statement and it raises questions about these two admins being too WP:INVOLVED in the topic. I'm also concerned about the use of the plural pronoun in this statement to explain the rationale behind the sequence of actions (administrative and non-administrative) that took place. It points to some degree of WP:TEAM-work at play. Note: some degree.

What are we naming: an article or a person?

First, throughout this discussion, folk have conflated the title we give to an article and the name of the subject of that article. As explained in policy (Wikipedia:Article titles) and the MOS (at WP:IDENTITY) these often the same - but not always.

Just because we give an article some title does not mean that we are calling the person by that name or are implying that that's the right name to call the subject by. It is an article we are naming here. Not a human. It is entirely possible to call the article one thing and the human another. Indeed, it is frequently the case that we do.

WP:IDENTITY

Also, there is some groupthink I can see at play with regard to reading (or not reading) WP:IDENTITY. Commenters appear to have followed the lead of earlier (possibly too enthusiastic) commenters who quoted from the second bullet point of this guideline. However, the question here is what title the article should be at. Article titles are addressed in the first bullet point of WP:IDENTITY:

"Disputes over how to refer to a person or group are addressed by policies such as Verifiability, Neutral point of view, and Article titles where the term appears in the title of an article."

So there is no need to make strained arguments about what is a gendered noun or not. The MOS is clear, we look to the usual policies. Specifically in this case, Wikipedia:Article titles. The second bullet point is useful for the content of the article. But for the title, it's the first bullet point that applies.

WP:COMMONNAME, WP:CRYSTAL and WP:V

The situation is developing rapidly, but we have a good number of press sources now using "Chelsea Manning" consistently, with some hold-outs still using "Bradley Manning".

This is probably the most unfortunate aspect of this affair. Rather than holding their breath and seeing how things panned out, Morwen and David Gerard jumped the gun.

So, should we look into our crystal balls? No. We don't do that. It's what sources say now that we are concerned with. We don't try and predict what they are going to say a week or a month from now. We don't comment on how sources are shifting before our eyes and so we'd better get in early. If things change, things change. But we don't run ahead of other sources.

The press may have lauded "us" (without knowing "us" was just Morwen and David Gerard) for doing so in this case - but that's because they don't understand us. We are not a news agency. We don't lead. We follow.

Beyond WP:COMMONNAME: WP:CRITERIA

Further to WP:COMMONNAME, the actual guidance for choosing a good article title is at WP:CRITERIA. Of the "criteria" for a good article title, the two most pertinent to our discussion are:

  • Recognizability: The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject will recognize.
  • Naturalness:' The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles.

Both titles (Bradley Manning and Chelsea Manning satisfy the other three criteria.)

At this time, I don't think that "Chelsea Manning" has had enough time to become sufficiently associated with the subject for it to be the recognisable or natural title for the article. Certainly, not when the move occurred. That may change in time. But it is still too early.

Have patience. If Manning becomes more recognisable as Chelsea (and so Chelsea Manning becomes the most natural title for a reader to search for) then we'll move.

BLP

The issues brought up regarding BLP policy deal more with the content of the article, as opposed to the title. But I'll address them anyway and try where I can to put them in the context of a title discussion.

Biographies of living persons ("BLP"s) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy.

We are not dealing with any matters of privacy here (definitely not in the title). Manning has made known the intention to live as a woman. And Manning's history as a man is public knowledge. It is not a case of "outing" Manning. Indeed, Manning is known to most people as man and as "Bradley".

Due regard for trans people's privacy usually includes not mentioning birth names.

This is dangerously close to WP:CENSOR. We can respect Manning's wishes but Wikipedia isn't censored by them.

Birth names are considered highly sensitive information, not to be shared lightly,...

Manning's birth name isn't private information. It's well known and in the public domain. We are not telling any secrets when we say that Manning formerly went under the name of Bradley or when we have the article at Bradley Manning. She is known to the whole world by that name.

...a common tactic for anti-transgender vandals is "outing" someone with their old name and/or changing pronouns.

Again, we're not "outing" Manning. And the claims that we are are beginning to sound hysterical.

But inability to protect the subject's privacy completely does not mean we should not make our best effort: we should go to the closest thing that is possible, and give Chelsea Manning primacy.

Within the article, sure. Why not? But the title of the article has other considerations. We can write the article sensitively and respectfully. We can even assert that Manning's name is Chelsea, but that doesn't (immediately) alter what other people know her as. And article titles are geared towards what other people expect the article to be titled.

...or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives: the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment.

We're not spreading titillating rumours. Manning is most widely known by the name Bradley Manning. We're not spreading this. We can (and should) go some degree to countering this and educating people that she is now called Chelsea. But people are coming here looking for an article on Bradley Manning - and that's what determines the title. That may change in time - but I don't believe it has changed yet.

BLPs should be written responsibly, cautiously, and in a dispassionate tone [...] biographies must be fair to their subjects at all times.

We can be fair. And indeed we should be. But we do not have to slavishly follow the desire's of a subject in every respect.

Sue Gardner's argument

Regarding Sue Gardner's argument, I have great sympathy for this position. I think it's very caring. At the same time, we are not the NHS. With argumentation like this, we're getting very close to trying to act as Manning's doctor. And losing sight over what we are: an encyclopaedia.

We can show dignity and sensitivity to the subjects of our articles. In fact, we must. But we cannot allow that to direct our decision making above everything else.

Our articles contain statements about living people that they don't like. They contain statements that hurt their feelings. Even statements that may cause them distress - even severe distress. But we're an encyclopaedia. We're not writing these things gratuitously. We're not writing them to cause distress. If we say in this case, oh we can't have the article as that title because it might disrupt her transition, where will it end?

If someone was the victim of a accident, can we not say their face was disfigured because they are known to be depressed over that? If someone has autism, should we not mention it because it causes them distress to be reminded that they are different? If someone was anorexic in the past, we really shouldn't say anything about their weight now because we might cause a recurrence?

We are not here to protect people. Neither are we here to attack people. We can show them dignity and respect. But we cannot hold Manning's hand and tell everyone to leave her alone while she transitions. That's not our job.

Furthermore, the nub of Sue's argument hangs on Wikipedia being a major site and the danger of Manning reading our supposed rejection of her requested name and/or gender characterisation. I don't believe that at this time Manning has access to a computer so this is not an immediate practical concern and may not be for several years or decades.

However, more specifically, Manning is conscious that people know her better as "Bradley Manning". His Lawyers have said, "There's a realization that most people know her as Bradley. Chelsea is a realist and understands."

So, fears of causing Manning unnecessary distress are misplaced. Manning "is a realist and understands". Should we not be also?

Compromise is not possible?

It is not an area that compromise is possible on - we have to pick one.

I find this the most amazing aspect of the argument put forward by Morwen and David Gerard. It seems so "all-or-nothing" when that's not the case at all.

Despite so many accusation of "transphobia", there has been relatively (relatively!) little resistance to calling Manning "Chelsea" and to referring to her as "she" in article text. The question before us only relates only to what we title the article.

So, it's not all or nothing. We can easily have the article at Bradley Manning (since that is what most people know her as) and then explain in the text that her preferred name is Chelsea (and so that's what we'll call her).

Consequence of a revert

...to move it back to Bradley Manning would be seen as a political statement that they are wrong: that trans people are mentally ill, and/or are delusional.

I find this ironic since it is already seen in the press as a political statement that we moved the article - and Wikipedia should not be making political statements of any kind. Morwen has played a particular part in that narrative as she has actively publicised the incident on social media and in the press, where she has categorised resistance to the move here as being "transphobic".

If there are consequences to moving the article back to Bradley Manning, it will be a consequence of Morwen and David Gerard's making. It is they who between them moved and then locked the article at Chelsea Manning without consensus. So please, don't put back on the community the consequence of your actions.

Finally, I'll quote this section from WP:TITLECHANGES (mainly because, throughout this discussion, questions of what is "right" have cropped up):

In discussing the appropriate title of an article, remember that the choice of title is not dependent on whether a name is "right" in a moral or political sense.

--RA (✍) 02:20, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Addendum: The move as a breach of BLP

I've made this point in an ANI thread but was reluctant to make it her since it is not clear-cut. But since similarly uncertain arguments have been made as to why keeping the article as Bradley Manning was a breach of BLP policy, I'll explain here why I believe moving the article (and subsequent actions) was a breach of BLP policy.

BLP policy mandates that biographies be written "conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy". "[It] is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives". Furthermore, "BLPs should be written responsibly, cautiously, and in a dispassionate tone..."

Morwen and David played fast-and-loose with a BLP. The manner in which the move took place was not conservative, cautious or responsible. It turned discussion on this talk page into a circus. The move itself became subject of media attention. And the instigator of the move publicised her action and this discussion on social media and in the press.

David has claimed that BLP policy mandated that he move the page immediately. How so? What immediate threat to Manning's health or safety existed? What immediate threat existed to Wikipedia? Could we not have waited a week? Did you consider that by making a circus out of this, we might cause more harm to Manning than good?

Manning is not merely the subject of our article. She is not trans* heroine. She a young person, just 25-year-old, who last week was told she may not feel daylight on her skin until she is 60. And the very next day, Wikipedians are making a plaything out of her on these pages and making titillating news stories out of her travails.

How does that serve Manning's privacy? How does it treat Manning with dignity or respect? How is that conservative, cautious, responsible, or dispassionate? --RA (✍) 10:16, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Comments on retort
  • Agree wholeheartedly with this summary. I especially want to highlight the points surrounding WP:CRITERIA; the "naturalness" and "recognizability" points of the policy are especially pertinent here. Even as some sources shift over to the use of the name "Chelsea Manning" (and these sources have the luxury, as we would in the body of the article, of appending something like "formerly known as Bradley Manning" on first reference), there will be a bit of lag before the average reader will recognize Chelsea Manning as the person they previously knew as Bradley Manning. -- tariqabjotu 02:38, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agreed with this summary as well, also concerned about abuse of admin powers, like I mentioned before what is going to stop something like this from happening again? To the supporters: If we had just followed policy and the way we do things then there is a good chance this article would have been renamed Chelsea anyways right? My view: At least this would have been the right thing to do, Wikipedia would not have made the news and less drama. Right now im still for keeping the article's name Bradley as WP:IDENTITY and WP:BLP as said here do not apply when it comes to article titles and what the overall common name is. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the crux of the difference between this argument and David and Morwen's joint one above is this statement:
We are not here to protect people. Neither are we here to attack people. We can show them dignity and respect.
You offer many examples of how Wiki should sometimes say things about people which they dislike in line with its goal as an encyclopaedia, such as mentioning a person's past crimes or medical conditions. However, the key difference between your examples and the current debate is that your examples feature excision of facts from the Wiki in order to ease a person's distress at those facts, whereas the present debate over page naming does not suggest excising the previous Bradley identity, but only using a preferred name as a matter of etiquette. Whatever the page is named, it will immediately make clear in text that two identities exist/ed, which means that reader misinformation is very unlikely.
Given this, the question is why not spare the subject's feelings by being kind? When no harm, or negligable harm, will come to the documentation of facts, what harm is there in deferring to trans people regarding how they want to be addressed?
A related argument that tends to be raised at this point is what makes trans people special? Why do they get deference over any old assertion that doesn't threaten factual integrity? This harks back to a passage in Morwen and David's introduction to their argument:
As editors who are familiar with trans issues this seemed sufficiently obvious to us that we did not think it required extensive clarification...
Many people have taken exception to this passage as arrogant, but I'm not sure it warranted such ire: essentially they're saying that they have a bunch of prior experience dealing with the trans community, and are familiar with attitudes amongst that community. In particular, they're likely familiar with the degree of distress that trans people can experience when people wilfully use their former identity, and I think it is this degree of potential to cause harm that justifies granting more deference regarding a trans identity as opposed to, say, a stage name. And yes, there might be other cases that warrant such deference, but can those not be addressed on a case-by-case basis? Deferring to trans people does not of itself compel you to defer similarly in future arguments about self-identity or other assertions about one's own life.
I'm not saying it's certainly the case, but I expect that RA, Knowledgekid, Tariq and others may have less experience interacting with trans people and so may be less familiar with how using a transperson's old identity in a manner that suggests it is the true or real identity can cause great hurt, with or without intent. Therefore I ask that those users, if they are indeed less experienced with the issue at hand, consider extending the benefit of the doubt to Morwen et al's experience. Chris Smowton (talk) 11:30, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Your last paragraph is, sadly, a remarkably popular sentiment on this talk page. I won't speculate as to why that might be the case, but this sentiment -- that the opinions of transgender people, or people who interact with them often, should be elevated above others -- is dangerous. We don't seem to accept that philosophy among any other group or in any other area of Wikipedia. Can you imagine if an editor, or a group of editors, said that they are more familiar with Muslim issues (perhaps because they're Muslim themselves) and so they know the name "Cat Stevens" is offensive to Yusuf Islam? Can you imagine if those same editors said that we can't talk about Muhammad unless we append the title "Prophet" before his name, that we can't show the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons in the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy article, or that the Muhammad article should be excised of all images of him, in the name of not offending Muslims? Can you imagine if they said those who disagree with their assessments just don't understand issues Muslims face, and that those editors should defer to the position of that group? That would not stand anywhere else, as consensus has shown otherwise. There is no reason given as to why transgender people are different and should be afforded the right to trounce on opinions of people who don't agree with them, and it's disconcerting that so many respected and established members of the Wikipedia community feel that the LGBT community's position should be taken as a trump card. -- tariqabjotu 15:56, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Why is the sentiment dangerous, as opposed to the censorship that you suggest is a possible consequence? If some editors, perhaps Muslims or perhaps simply scholars of Islam, suggested that using "Cat Stevens" was egregiously offensive then we shouldn't do as they say without thinking, but we probably should entertain the possibility that we're missing something because of our cultural perspective, whether that be a non-Muslim or a non-trans perspective. It is this same consideration that I'm asking you to give here. In fact in the particular case of Cat Stevens, if a group of editors were to claim this was a problem, I'd be inclined to say let them have their way, since Cat/Yusuf's situation is very similar to Bradley/Chelsea's: whatever you call the article, the two-name situation is immediately made clear in the text and no confusion arises.
You suggest that by these principles we might excise the Muhammed pictures on these grounds, but this falls into the same hole as RA's examples of potentially hurtful statements -- to remove the Muhammed pictures would be to excise facts whereas to name this page in a particular way is only a matter of politeness, not one of fact. In other words, the encyclopaedia has much more to lose by deleting the Muhammed pictures than by using a preferred name, either here or for Cat Stevens, and so the balance of power between politeness and bluntness should shift accordingly.
Ultimately your argument, like many ventured on this page, is a slippery slope argument: if we allow a person the right to assert their identity in this harmless way, then what about people in the future who assert more controversial things? And the answer is the same as for all slippery slopes: use your common sense! If a person says "hey you might not know this, but it's seen as rude in the XXX community when you do or say YYY," consider the magnitude of YYY! If you can edit without affecting the information the article conveys, give XXX the benefit of the doubt and accommodate. If it's a much more substantial issue, like the Muhammed pictures, then there is an argument worth having.
You're right that "playing the LGBT card" doesn't give one victory in all arguments, but your given examples are all much more consequential than the one at stake here, which brings me back to my original point: when there is so little at stake, why not defer to the LGBT community and accede to their request for polite address? Chris Smowton (talk) 19:49, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think you make an important point in the addendum (and I agree with the rest as well). It is fairly obvious that Wikipedia was used as a vehicle for propaganda in order to shape public view (intentionally or not). The article is highly visible, describes a current event and was featured on the main page at the time of the move. This was not only irresponsible with regard to the subject, it undermines Wikipedias credibility as a neutral encyclopedia and it only served to inflame the move discussion here. -Space simian (talk) 16:59, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Both comments above and my response below probably should spark their own policy RfC.
Actually the same politically correct favoritism argument has been done on articles regarding Israel-Palestine and BLPs of individuals in the least bit critical of Israel and Judaism. This led to the Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles whose only real solution was 1RR and a greater readiness to sanction those who accused other editors of antisemitism on the flimsiest of pretext. (Battles over POV editing in Scientology and other ethnic conflicts has lead to similar arbitrations.) Given enough influx of hard core Muslim religionists, that kind of ideological POV pushing could become a problem too, though it probably would be dealt with more quickly and firmly given this is English speaking wikipedia.
In the last few months I've dealt with editors who openly admit or hint at being transgender who add negative, exaggerated/WP:OR inflammatory material to a bunch of BLPs in part because those people do not supported state-enforced rights for homosexuals and assumedly transgenders (or anyone else, since most BLPs are of libertarians). They've engaged in wikihounding and have drive four editors off wikipedia; I've cut down my own editing out of shear frustration with Wikipedia's inability to deal with this behavior. I've recently noticed that a number of feminist articles have emphasized the alleged transphobia of feminists who have problems with some transgender behaviors or political stances. I have a feeling there probably are other categories of articles where similar POVs are pushed in violation of policy.
The larger issue is the need for Wikipedia to come up with better ways of dealing with advocacy groups, who may employ off and on wiki canvassing and tag team, meat puppet behavior to revert, intimidate and hound editors in order to shape the encyclopedia to their own narrow POV. User:Carolmooredc 17:06, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know the history of conflicts in this area, so I can't speak to that. However, I want to highlight that, as you seem to suggest, it's irrelevant that the point-of-view being pushed is one that a significant number of editors on Wikipedia are sympathetic toward. POV-pushing is still POV-pushing, and if we want our encyclopedia to be seen as neutral, as we profess through our policies, the actions and sentiment expressed by Morwen and David Gerard need to be strongly condemned. -- tariqabjotu 17:33, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think one could also reasonably argue that their prior experience and familiarity of editing Wikipedia articles within the Wikipedia community should have outweighed any outside influences gained from their prior experiece and familiarity within the trans community. It's also reasonable to argue that when your rationale for a controversial edit is partly based on those outside influences, you shouldn't feign surprise or dismay when other editor's challenge that controversial edit. And on a final note, their logic is flawed by asserting that these three WP articles cited as precedent should be considered as well in their argument. Precedent is defined as: An earlier event or action that is regarded as an example or guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances. The circumstances surrounding this article title change are not even remotely similar to the circumstances surrounding the title changes of the three cases cited as precedent.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 18:51, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am bewildered by the idea that we would have the article located at "Bradley Manning" and then proceed to discuss the subject with gender pronouns that are obviously from a different name. Surely the solution to this dispute is not, in fact, "have a badly written article that reads poorly." Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:05, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

TLDR. Sportfan5000 (talk) 03:28, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

When all is said and done - Dont bring to move review

When this is all over and a decision is made can both sides we agree to not bring this to a WP:Move review? A move review would be a nightmare for a number of reasons some being WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:STICK to name two. I am also sure there are at lease a handful of editors here who do not want to see this dragged out any longer than it needs to be. Does this sound good to people here? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:38, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There shouldn't be any "sides". Nearly 300 people have registered an opinion here, and it would be hard to get all of them to agree not to file a move review (to say nothing of getting those who didn't participate to do the same). That being said, I hope any attempt at a move review would be shut down; with three people closing this discussion together, it would be impossible to make a case that the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI wasn't followed or that they missed something. -- tariqabjotu 03:51, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Opposing views then, I understand it would be hard but it is worth stating here for the record - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:55, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support no move review and if it goes I will endorse the outcome, or endorse a speedy close of the MR on procedural grounds. But I really hope no-one brings it to move review. A reasonable closer could find for either name, and I think we should all agree to accept whatever outcome. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:01, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support Perhaps some pro-active action is in order regarding this issue? Not to be pedantic about it or anything but getting ArbCom or similar to observe the proceedings of the close committee and "certify" results may be helpful in quelling the argumentative masses? I know I've said my peace and others have done the same regarding this issue; those of us who are reasonable trust the CC to be impartial and weigh the arguments in seeking the correct consensus. I know its sort of an implicit violation of "good faith" but I think everyone knows there are going to be contentious elements on either side if it goes against their wishes. Having some higher authority set in the chain weigh in with a statement endorsing the decisions of the CC may go a long way to heading off these sorts of frivolous arguments. IDK, just a thought, everyone. QuackCD (talk) 20:01, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Interpretation of MOS:IDENTITY

The relevant language in the guideline say that:

  • When there is no dispute, the term most commonly used for a person will be the one that person uses for himself or herself

My question: is a dispute the same thing as an non-conensus on a Wikipedia article talk page, or is the word dispute referring to a verifiable dispute between reliable sources?

Second Question: Is there a verifiable dispute between reliable sources, or is this dispute purely a Wikipedia issue? Belorn (talk) 09:11, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Typically, a "dispute" means a dispute between Wikipedians but involving sources. Not just opinion. Hence, the direction is to resolve dispute using policy on striking a balance between differing reliable sources.
There's a verifiable dispute between reliable sources. Sources exist that discuss how some sources use "Chelsea" and some use "Bradley" and that discuss the trend (or non-trend) of moving from one to the other (or back). Some are linked on this page. --RA (✍) 10:19, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for an excellent answer regarding the interpretation, and for pointing out that there is a source linked on this talk page regarding a dispute between RSs. Is the source/s the USA today article? If there is more, please link them as it can be a bit hard to notice/find them as the talk page is right now. Since I have not created a specific opinion yet, reading such sources is really useful. Belorn (talk) 10:44, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There have been a few bandied around. This Buzzfeed example. The Slate also. A Google News search for "Bradley Chelsea Manning" should bring up several.
Sadly, the affair is a bit tainted. Ideally, we'd look to other sources and take their lead. But, because of the move, other sources are looking to us and using us as an example to follow. So the whole thing starts becoming circular: we follow them following us. Who know what the situation would have been if "we" hadn't jumped the gun? --RA (✍) 11:24, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

NLGJA's guidance on references to transgender people

In responding to a comment in the survey section, I happened upon a recent article by TIME discussing the naming and gender controversy. The article includes this intriguing passage regarding the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association's guidance on historical references to Manning:

[A] spokesperson for the group said it would recommend “he” for historical reference too: "When writing about events prior to when the person began living publicly as the opposite gender, NLGJA recommends using the name and gender the individual used publicly at that time. For example: Chelsea Manning, formerly known as Bradley, came out as transgender last week. In a statement, Manning said she had felt this way since childhood. Manning grew up in Oklahoma. In middle school, he was very outspoken in class about government issues and religious beliefs, friends said."

I, of course, don't feel Wikipedia's style guide should be dictated by outside advocacy groups. However, this seems to deal a serious blow to the repeated argument that referring to Manning as Bradley, even in historical references, clearly constitutes a serious insult to, invasion of the privacy of, or intolerance toward the subject and transgender people, as at least one LGBT organization disagrees. -- tariqabjotu 02:00, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Associated Press article: "Bradley" and "she"

As we draw to the end of the RM discussion period, a google search of the last 24 hours shows that there are still lots of "Bradley" sources. Perhaps the most interesting is this article from the Associated Press: Bradley Manning lawyer gives more details on gender change. The articles says "Army Pvt. Chelsea Manning, who was previously known as Bradley Manning, wants estrogen treatments that would promote breast development and other female characteristics, which she’d be willing to pay for, while she’s incarcerated at the all-men military prison at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., her lawyer said" (emphasis added). A few editors have said it would be strange and/or inconsistent if we changed the title back to "Bradley Manning" and kept the feminine pronouns, but that's what's happening in reliable sources. StAnselm (talk) 03:05, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The same article appears in the Huffington Post, however, with the headline "Chelsea Manning Would Be Willing To Pay For Hormone Therapy While In Prison, Lawyer Says", and in some other sources with just "Manning". StAnselm (talk) 03:09, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
So the reasonable thing to do would be to change the article title to Bradley manning and use the she pronoun. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:32, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Better reference for war logs leak

The 2nd paragraph of the lead section says Manning leaked, among other things, the Afghan War logs and Iraq War logs. I think Manning being the source of the war logs leak was long assumed, but it wasn't confirmed until Manning's admission on page 16 of his 29 January 2013 statement to the court.

The only citation currently given for the entire set of leaked materials is "Leigh and Harding 2011, pp. 194ff, 211. For Manning's referring to the documents, see Poulsen and Zetter, 6 June 2010." Well, those sources don't seem to support the portion of the claim pertaining to the war logs. The latter reference is a Wired article that makes no mention of the war logs; it only discusses the Baghdad video, the Granai video, the 2008 Army report blasting Wikileaks, and the diplomatic cables. Leigh & Harding's book likewise, as far as I can tell from skimming the relevant chapter, doesn't explicitly tie Manning to the war logs, either.

So, I feel we should modify the placement and content of the existing reference so that it doesn't apply to the war logs, and then use Manning's own statement as the reference for the war logs—i.e., change this:

The material included videos of the [[July 12, 2007 Baghdad airstrike]] and the 2009 [[Granai airstrike]] in Afghanistan; 250,000 [[United States diplomatic cables leak|United States diplomatic cables]]; and 500,000 army reports that came to be known as the [[Iraq War documents leak|Iraq War logs]] and [[Afghan War documents leak|Afghan War logs]].<ref name=Leigh2011p194/> Much of the material was published by WikiLeaks or its media partners between April and November 2010.<ref name=Leigh2011p194>Leigh and Harding 2011, pp. 194ff, 211. * For Manning's referring to the documents, see [http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/leak/ Poulsen and Zetter, 6 June 2010].</ref>

to this:

The material included videos of the [[July 12, 2007 Baghdad airstrike]] and the 2009 [[Granai airstrike]] in Afghanistan; 250,000 [[United States diplomatic cables leak|United States diplomatic cables]];<ref name=Leigh2011p194/><ref>Poulsen and Zetter, 6 June 2010</ref> and 500,000 army reports that came to be known as the [[Iraq War documents leak|Iraq War logs]] and [[Afghan War documents leak|Afghan War logs]].<ref name=ProvidenceStatement>{{cite web|url=https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_zC44SBaZPoQmJUYURBUnBycUk/edit?pli=1 |title=Statement in Support of Providence Inquiry |date=29 January 2013}}</ref> Much of the material was published by WikiLeaks or its media partners between April and November 2010.<ref name=Leigh2011p194>Leigh and Harding 2011, pp. 194ff, 211.</ref>

Then, in the "Granai airstrike" section, replace the first reference with <ref name=ProvidenceStatement/>.

—mjb (talk) 20:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is everyone ok with this change? If there is no opposition in the next couple of days, I will add it to the article. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 15:20, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't be keen on that because it adds unnecessary footnotes to the lead. (The article is a GA and I was hoping to get it to FA, which is why I'm concerned about style issues.) I didn't quite follow Mjb's point about the need for an additional source, but if there is a need, the sources are bundled, so an extra source can be added to the bundle. The first footnote (ref name=Leigh2011p194) can be removed because it repeats the second. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:17, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for considering the request. The placement of references is flexible, of course, but I don't see how adding a reference is unnecessary. The problem is that there currently seem to be no references which actually support the claim that Manning leaked the war logs; the ones given only deal with other leaked material. If there's a better all-encompassing source to use, let's use it, but in a BLP we shouldn't say she leaked the war logs, and provide nothing to back it up. —mjb (talk) 22:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The lead is adequately sourced. The rest of the sources for that point are in the body of the article; not every detail in the lead has to be sourced. See WP:LEAD. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've added an additional source here to the lead. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:32, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Your addition of the bullet point "For the Afghan and Iraq War logs, see Nicks 2012, p. 137." should be fine. Maybe also change "For Manning's referring to the documents" to "For Manning's referring to other documents"? Either way, thanks! —mjb (talk) 20:55, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Manning addressed as a "she"?

Manning was born a male, is a male and will continue to be a male despite his so-called "gender identity" problems. It's ridiculous that the whole article addresses him as a she rather than a he, as it should be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PikkoroDaimao (talk • contribs) 09:18, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yeah, no trans-phobia there at all... NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:IDENTITY is clear on this issue, take a look. U-Mos (talk) 10:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

His gender changeover occurred after the important events surrounding him took place. Shouldn't that be taken into consideration? Also,I believe everyone has a right to exercise their freedom and lifestyle in their own way but his name is Bradley Manning and he should be addressed as a man.You can't just put the trans-phobic label on everyone with this opinion. (MightySaiyan (talk) 10:47, 24 August 2013 (UTC))[reply]

Actually, yes, I can put the trans-phobic label on everyone with that opinion.
"I believe everyone has a right to exercise their freedom and lifestyle in their own way but John Doe is a man and he should not be allowed to marry another man" is unambiguously homophobic.
"I believe everyone has a right to exercise their freedom and lifestyle in their own way but John Doe is a black man and he should not be allowed to marry a white woman" is unambiguously racist.
Please explain how your argument is not unambiguously transphobic. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:08, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I do not share MightySaiyan's view on this, but the analogous transphobic comment to your examples would be "I believe everyone has a right to exercise their freedom and lifestyle in their own way but Bradley Manning is a man and should not be able to live as a woman." That's not at all what was said, MightySaiyan was talking about Manning's legal name and his views on what that should mean for the wording on an encyclopedic article. Such inflammatory responses to that are helping no one. U-Mos (talk) 14:05, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion has been had UMPTEEN times on this page already. Please drop the stick, both of you. Focus on content. The article currently uses "she", and will likely continue to do so unless MOS:IDENTITY has changed. Thus, there's not much more to say here.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 12:52, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No need to change MOS:IDENTITY, Manning is verifiably a man as evidenced by his admission into the US Army as a man and his incarceration in a male prison. His name is verifiably "Bradley" Manning as evidenced by the fact that the military and the courts still refer to him as "Bradley", not "Chelsea". And in regards to the Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View, the non-neutral bias is coming from those who insist on calling him a "she" and using his non-legal name as the title of the article. He is neither a "she" nor is his name "Chelsea". When his name is legally changed and he starts hormone replacement therapy, at that point the article should be updated to reflect those changes. But at the current time it is obvious that the fervor to change his name and call him a "she" is driven by editors with a non-neutral agenda. Martylunsford (talk) 02:07, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's pretty clear that the discussed section of MOS:IDENTITY is explicitly intended to be used for the pages of trans people. I'm not sure how this: "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman"), pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification." could be read any other way, especially given the lines that follow it about "phase of that person's life" and similar things that imply transition. Given that, I'd say you'd have to blind yourself to the rules pretty willfully to miss that MOS:IDENTITY pretty clearly does assert that female pronouns should be used on this page. Cam94509 (talk) 20:55, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Do we have evidence she was born as a he? Any medical assessment of genitalia and chromosomes at the moment of birth (from reputable sources, of course) ? Vexorian (talk) 16:47, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Just a comment: I don't think we should call this transphobia. Transphobia should be when people beat up transsexuals and discriminate against them, as some sort of evidence of actual animosity. I think there should be some other category of "trans-skepticism" where a person can decide he doesn't believe the surgery and lifestyle changes really change what sex someone is, or doesn't want to stop using an old name or pronoun in certain circumstances, when there is no animosity. Much as someone can be firmly unbelieving of Islam but not Islamophobic. Wnt (talk) 22:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Even if you would rename it "trans-skepticism", a trans person being miss-gendered will perceive it as discrimination. Vexorian (talk) 02:39, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion re personal pronouns

I personally find it very confusing that all personal pronouns have been swapped from male to female, especially those detailing Pvt. Manning's childhood as a little boy. Can we make a consensus to label Pvt Manning as a boy up until the announcement to be female? I think a gender switch halfway through makes a little more sense than whitewashing everything as "she". thoriyan tlk - ctrbs 17:45, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore to this suggestion, Pvt Manning herself "requested, from this day forward to be referred to by the feminine pronouns" (per the original press release). It wouldn't be a violation of her wishes to refer to her by the male pronoun before Aug 23/13. thoriyan tlk - ctrbs 18:04, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I find a problem in making a change of gender retrospective. It's all very well for a person to request, as Manning did, to be referred to by the feminine pronouns "from this day forward". It's the retrospective part that is problematical. Another famous transsexual, Christine Jorgensen described herself as a child as "frail, blond, introverted little boy who ran from fistfights and rough-and-tumble games". The author Jan Morris transitioned to a female identity in her mid forties but before that date, had married a woman and had five children by her. Peter Wherrett lived about 70 years as a man, marrying and divorcing three times and having children and grandchildren. For the last three years of life, Wherrett lived as a woman called Pip, before dying of prostate cancer at the age of 72. Prospective identification as a woman is not a problem; it's the retrospective part that is problematic. Michael Glass (talk) 03:32, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The New York Times specified that it would now use "her" but would keep using "him" when referring to past events. I think this would be the best solution. IMHO, the retroactive use of "her" and "she" in the narrative, when referring to events which took place when Manning was still widely known as a "he", is very unfortunate : I don't think it does a great service to transgendered people. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 09:18, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Using the male pronoun to refer to events when Manning was regarded as male seems sensible.--Toddy1 (talk) 09:28, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, this, PLEASE!!! I'm fine if Manning wants to be female from now on, but she was born a boy, and did many of the same things boys and young men did. To attribute those actions to a female is *very* confusing, and honestly seems a little wrong. Livit⇑Eh?/What? 15:53, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Another statement from Manning's lawyer

On August 26, 2013, Manning's attorney David Edward Coombs and the Private Manning Support Network (formerly the Bradley Manning Support Network) jointly posted what they call "Additional clarification on PVT Manning's request." http://www.bradleymanning.org/featured/announcing-the-private-manning-support-network It reads in part:

"While PVT Manning wants supporters to acknowledge and respect her gender identity as she proceeds into the post-trial state of her life, she also expects that the name Bradley Manning and the male pronoun will continue to be used in certain instances. These instances include any reference to the trial, in legal documents, in communication with the government, in the current petition to the White House calling for clemency, and on the envelope of letters written to her by supporters. She also expects that many old photos and graphics will remain in use for the time being." (Boldface in original.)

It's unclear whether PVT Manning's expectation about continuing use of male name and pronouns represents her preference or merely an acknowledgement that old usages will persist. JohnValeron (talk) 18:14, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I think it's rather clear. Manning expects male pronouns to be used because that is the reality of how the topic has been discussed in these contexts. I don't see any basis that Manning has changed her preferences based on the above statement. I, JethroBT drop me a line 18:36, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
GASP! Where is the army of editors jumping on the chance to go in and change all the pronouns in the articles? It looks like NONE of these changes have been made! Could it be that the users who were so quick to make the changes to the article when Manning "announced" he was a woman (as if that just makes it so) gave less than one flying fuck what Manning wants or expects, and were just looking for an opportunity to push their ridiculous advocacy position on a neutral encyclopedia? TUM TUM TUMMMMM! The plot thickens! Clinton (talk)
Cjarbo2, please be aware that some users have cited what they believe to be policy arguments for the move to Chelsea, and that not all users may be "advocates" for social change. CaseyPenk (talk) 23:13, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Surely though (notwithstanding my statement below), Manning's own statement puts this entire debate to bed? If he says that he expects male pronouns to be used, then we can take it as implicit acceptance that his Wikipedia article will still refer to him as "he" and "Bradley". --The Historian (talk) 18:56, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

She asked for respect and acknowledgement of of her gender identity but said that she expected that the name Bradley and male pronoun would be used in various legal contexts. That is not inconsistent with her original statement asking people to use the female pronoun and new name except in official mail to the prison. I fail to see how this is earth-shattering or in any way determinative.AgnosticAphid talk 19:15, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. It does take the wind out of the sails of the "must use female names/terms now!" side of the debate a tad, but in terms of having a practical effect on the Wikipedia it probably amounts to little, since we shouldn't be relying on the subject's personal preferences anyways. Tarc (talk) 19:59, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that some people already are going by what he subject's personal preferences are. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:47, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The idea that, as Tarc puts it, "we shouldn't be relying on the subject's personal preferences anyways," is downright bizarre. Why did Manning's Wikipedia article require an emergency sex-change operation in the first place? It wasn't because Manning underwent hormone therapy or surgery to alter his gender. It was solely because Manning, through his lawyer's appearance on the Today show, expressed a preference, and Wikipedia's doctors of political correctness sprang into action. JohnValeron (talk) 22:33, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A person's gender identity is not conditional on completing the process of hormone therapy and surgery. Bearcat (talk) 22:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, quite frankly, not everyone subscribes to that notion, and it is quite wrong of you and a handful of others to push your ideology onto people who hold a different opinion on the matter. There is simply no actual person named "Chelsea Manning" here. What we have is a man named "Bradley Manning" who wants to be called by this other name (and awhile ago it was reportedly "Breanna") and referred to as "she". That is all. That is the reality that the article should reflect, the policy of WP:COMMONNAME. Bradley Manning was a solider in the United States military. Bradley Manning was caught passing classified intel to unauthorized parties, convicted, and sentenced. After that, Bradley Manning decided to be called "Chelsea". That is how the flow of the article should be, these are all things that a man named Bradley Manning did, you can't just flick a switch and rewrite history to say "Chelsea Manning was convicted of violating the Espionage Act..." and so on. That just isn't historically accurate or truthful. When and if he legally changes his name, that is when the transition process of the article should begin. That all was simply way too soon. Tarc (talk) 23:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, as I've pointed out before, the problem with insisting on completion of the medical or legal processes as the standard for recognition of a transgender person's new identity is that those things are covered by privacy laws. Nobody but her and her lawyers has a right to access her legal records; nobody but her and her doctors has a right to access her medical records — which means that you're insisting on a standard which no reliable source will ever be able to properly verify whether or when she's successfully met them. It's an unattainable standard which a transgender person can never actually meet unless her privacy is consensually or non-consensually violated in a way that would still be an inadmissible source (e.g. a tabloid stealing her name change documents; somebody actually publishing an unauthorized photograph of her in the communal shower.) That's why it's not conditional on completing the process: there's no way that her completion of the process can ever be properly verified. Bearcat (talk) 00:51, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Tarc &John Valeron, you both appear to be pushing a fringe view which rejects the medical consensus. The position which Bearcat describes ert to gender identity is the consensus position of the medical profession: WPATH's SOC notes that:
"gender dysphoria—broadly defined as discomfort or distress that is caused by a discrepancy between a person’s gender identity and that person’s sex assigned at birth."[18]
You are of course quite entitled to disagree, and there are many fringe views on these matters. However, if you want to misuse these discussions to push your own theories about transgenderism and the process of gender reassignment, please have the courtesy not to denounce those with mainstream views as pushers of ideology or "political correctness".
If you insist on approaching the biographies of trans people with your own set of definitions, and insist on applying a standard which (as Bearcat illustrates) is unattainable, you are effectively demanding that Wikipedia should permanently reject the identities of trans people. That is a blatantly ideological position. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:43, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It is not a fringe opinion, it is a very real one that is tied to the rejection of political correctness. I give no credence to Bearcat's "medical records are private therefore we just have to go by what the subject says", it's just too absurd to even address. Like it or not, America is fairly evenly divided between liberal and conservative ideologies, and this one of mine happens to fall on the conservative side of things. Bradley Manning simply doesn't become a woman just because he says so. You can deride that as "fringe" if that's what makes you comfortable with yourself, I really don't plan to spend much time haranguing you on why that's incorrect. But from a Wikipedia policy standpoint, we're still at the simple place and time where Manning is still regarded as a male, and generally addresses him as such. WP:COMMONNAME and all that. This whole gender affair should be consigned to a few paragraphs of his bio, maybe even a spinout article if there's enough material. Keep in mind that the primary notability here is a soldier convicted of violating the Espionage Act and about to serve a 35-year term in Ft. Leavenworth. Note that I never plan to edit-war or act tendentiously or attack other editors, I'm just working on moving the discussion here in the way I feel it should go. If the Move Request and other issues do not go the way I wish them to, I will be of course disappointed but will alo consider the matter settled. Unlike some around here, I actually respect consensus. Tarc (talk) 02:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As I feared, Tarc. You reject the medical consensus as "political correctness" and proclaim your conservative ideology. And yet you denounce others for pushing what you call an ideology. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, we're arguing from unequal positions; the article should never have been moved without having this discussion first. So we started this race with your "side", as it were, already a lap ahead. So me arguing...or "denouncing" to borrow your term...is just trying to get back on equal footing. Tarc (talk) 04:09, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We're not going to start asking homeopaths if an article on alternative medicine labelled medicine should be moved. There are no sides here, because you haven't qualified for the race; you are rejecting medical consensus in the name of some perceived right to have your opinions supersede fact. There isn't really much room for debate here. Amitabho Chattopadhyay (talk) 05:05, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

She has asked in very clear terms that "starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun." The new comment just recognises that sources using her former name will still exist. Josh Gorand (talk) 19:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, this just clarifies to those who want to correspond with her that they may have to use "Bradley" to get mail to her and legally the case against her is also in that name. Additionally many supporters have pictures and posters displaying the Bradley name. This doesn't change what the article is one bit from its present appearance although I'm sure the same posters will continue to argue until forced to accept consensus affirming Chelsea as the title and she/her as the commonsense and respectful pronouns. Sportfan5000 (talk) 04:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"...expects that the name Bradley Manning and the male pronoun will continue to be used in certain instances...These instances include any reference to the trial" This is clear cut. Pronouns and name usage must be reverted now regarding Bradley Manning in his pre-female-announcement life. I request that the page be edited so that the male pronouns are used before Bradley's announcement. I also request that the page use the name Bradley before his announcement. IFreedom1212 (talk) 19:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I somehow read the statement like three times and missed the apparent meaning of the "reference to the trial" part of it. It's true that maybe as Tarc said it "takes the wind out of the sails" of the one side to some degree. But really, before wasn't your position that what the person themselves wanted wasn't relevant? Do you suddenly think that we should defer to the subject's wishes? How does this statement change things, really? It doesn't really address the larger question of whether it is in fact accurate to use female pronouns in this situation, a question about which there can be a reasonable difference of opinion. AgnosticAphid talk 20:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC) Follow-up: It's also ambiguous whether "expects to be referred to as Bradley" means "wants to be referred to as Bradley" or "realizes people will refer to her as Bradley," especially in light of her apparent further comment that she is a "realist" and "understands," discussed in the "when bradley becomes chelsea" section below. AgnosticAphid talk 16:35, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Information from Manning's lawyer about pronouns and the photograph

I've obtained clarification of Manning's statement today from her lawyer, David Coombs, which I'm sharing with his permission. Regarding the pronoun, he wrote that the female pronoun should be used only for post-announcement material. I also asked about the current main photograph, and he said that Chelsea is proud of the photograph and would want it to be used until a better one becomes available.

I don't think we should rush to change the pronouns just yet. We should decide on the title first, for one thing. But I'm posting this so that we know what the lawyer's and Manning's preferences are. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:12, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this carries weight to those who reply here saying "Well this is what manning wants so...." but thanks Slim for the clarification. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:21, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
For future reference, the "current main photograph" is File:Bradley Manning US Army.jpg ("MANNING, BRADLEY PFC HEAD AND SHOULDERS 4-26-2012.jpg"). This is the US Army photo of PFC Manning in uniform in front of a US flag, made available by his lawyer, David Coombs. -- ToE 17:43, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • My personal interpretation of the statement would lead me to the conclusion that "change all pronouns/names in events prior to August 22, 2013 to male/Bradley && differentiate between Chelsea/Bradley on events post August 22, in addition to restoring the title to Bradley" would be the neutral, proper way of interpreting it. (And I think it could be valid. But that's just me...) - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 01:32, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP should be taking a consistent approach, not treating individual subjects according to their requests (or what are interpreted as their requests).

This is useful evidence that the guidance at WP:MOSIDENTITY may be wrong-headed, but that's a discussion to be had there. Formerip (talk) 11:15, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

When Bradley becomes Chelsea

The question of transitioning from one gender to another raises some thorny questions. The day after sentencing, Manning said that she wanted to be referred to as a woman from this day forward. So what do we do with events in Manning's life before this fateful day? This quotation from a CBS report may offer food for thought:

Coombs said Manning knows there is the potential for confusion with the name change, and said Manning expects to be referred to as Bradley when it has to do with events prior to sentencing, the appeal of the court-martial and the request for a presidential pardon. Prison mail must be addressed to Bradley Manning. "There's a realization that most people know her as Bradley," Coombs said. "Chelsea is a realist and understands."

[1]

My own feeling is that we could take this as suggesting that everything before the day of the announcement belongs to Bradley, and all references from that day forward belong to Chelsea. I think this may be helpful, especially as at one stage, Bradley identified as a gay man. What do others think? Michael Glass (talk) 16:01, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think it was a resignation to the state of affairs, not an encouragement to do so - David Gerard (talk) 16:04, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like the above excerpt is evidence that the "distress" argument for keeping the new title of Chelsea Manning isn't valid. Note the part,
"There's a realization that most people know her as Bradley," Coombs said. "Chelsea is a realist and understands."
--Bob K31416 (talk) 16:25, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It can be read two ways, I agree. However, I would like people to consider an analogous case where Christine Jorgensen described herself as a "frail, blond, introverted little boy who ran from fistfights and rough-and-tumble games." I think you would have to agree that Jorgensen was comfortable with having been a little boy who changed into a female. Now I know we can't apply this directly to Chelsea Manning. However, we cannot discount the possibility that when it says, " Manning expects to be referred to as Bradley when it has to do with events prior to sentencing" that Chelsea does want this to happen. Whatever else Manning might be, she is no shrinking violet, and if she wanted to be viewed as female all along she would have had no hesitation in saying so. Instead, she used a from this day forward wording in her announcement. Michael Glass (talk) 02:40, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

New York Times flips

Just a note that the New York Times has flipped to using "Chelsea Manning" at this point. [19] The Washington Post has also started using Chelsea. As has the AP. What major media sources are left holding out? CNN is, I know. Is there anything else major that's still using "Bradley?" If not, I would point out that WP:COMMONNAME says "if an organization changes its name, it is reasonable to consider the usage since the change." Given a change in the majority of reliable sources, how is it that there is still a dispute here, exactly? Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:18, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can you point to where The Washington Post has started using Chelsea? I just keep getting a lot of AP wire articles. As to a few other sources, see #References to Manning in sources (among them, the BBC). You admit you don't seem to be abreast of who is using which name, so it seems odd to me that you'd conclude, absent such information, that a "majority of reliable sources" now call the subject Chelsea. I understand some people hold the AP and the New York Times to such high esteem that they'd base common name solely upon those two sources, but it's inconclusive at this point what a majority of sources are doing. -- tariqabjotu 20:35, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
[20] Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:06, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) That's not The Washington Post using the name Chelsea. The way I read the title it's "[The use/request/idea of the name] Chelsea Manning puts transgender issues in the spotlight", not that the individual is. You'll see in the photo caption, the author still calls the subject Bradley Manning. In the linked photo gallery, the subject is still called Bradley Manning. This is why the sources need to be about something other than the gender identity change; it needs to be clear the source is referring to Manning as Chelsea in passing, not as an idea in reference to the gender identity change. Unfortunately, I can't find any source from the Washington Post written since August 22 that's not an AP wire story. -- tariqabjotu 21:30, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is a more recent article, as is this, but the latter only mentions Chelsea in passing and doesn't use any pronouns. Note: I'm no AP expert, but though the first link is an AP story couldn't they have changed the pronouns and names if they wanted? Maybe the first link isn't that relevant. AgnosticAphid talk 21:25, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
They're both AP stories. -- tariqabjotu 21:30, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You know, though I supported the use of "Bradley", at the same time I acknowledge there may come a day when "Chelsea" is the name supported by a majority of reliable sources. When that day comes, the correct title for the article will be "Chelsea" per WP:COMMONNAME. I don't think that day has come yet and I definitely don't think the title of article should have been changed several days ago (before the AP and NYT made the switch). Let's wait a month and reassess. NickCT (talk) 20:39, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A month?!?!?! That's an unheard of wait for a name change like this. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:06, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
re "That's an unheard of wait" - Citation needed! Can you point to other examples of name changes like this one which were enacted so quickly after the individual announced a name change? NickCT (talk) 22:16, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've done so up thread, actually, and the same set of three is covered in David Gerard and Morwen's summary of their reasoning. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:46, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Instead of citing a wall of text, why not give examples? NickCT (talk) 13:08, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
By chance, just before you wrote this I replied to you in an older section showing why WP:COMMONNAME + MOS:IDENTITY supported the current title even before the AP and NTY switch. That's not to mention BLP, which fully justified David Gerrad's bold actions. I dont see how we can possibly change from Chelsea, unless we want to tear up policy and decide things based on majority voting? FeydHuxtable (talk) 20:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@FeydHuxtable - If you read through the conversations above you'll probably note some degree of consensus surrounding the idea that WP:COMMONNAME supports the use of "Bradley". Furthermore, as has been hashed out again and again MOS:IDENTITY isn't really intended to influence article titles. Additionally, no one has brought up a good explanation for how WP:BLP applies. NickCT (talk) 22:18, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, that's been stated, incorrectly: Wikipedia:MOS#Article_titles.2C_headings.2C_and_sections states explicitly, "The guidance contained elsewhere in the MoS, particularly in the section below on punctuation, applies to all parts of an article, including the title." - David Gerard (talk) 22:34, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"The guidance" in MOS:IDENT relates to the use of pronouns. If a pronoun was used in this articles title, I'd agree it should be "she" rather than "he" based on policy. There is no pronoun in this title. NickCT (talk) 22:48, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If we look at the views of experienced editor who actually wrote our guidelines, like Morwen who was one of the authors of the document in question, or SlimVirgin who is arguably the single editor most responsible for shaping content policy, they both seem to believe MOS:IDENTITY supports Chelsea. Your claim to know the guidelines intention better than they do is not convincing Im afraid. FeydHuxtable (talk) 23:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
My claim is that I can read English and have basic reasoning skills. Please point out for me where MOS:IDENT says it deals with something other than pronouns. NickCT (talk) 01:14, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
BLP application has been explained several times already. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:43, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Sportfan5000 - Outside a few folks claiming that calling him Bradley is "sexual harrasment", I haven't seen anyone really point to which section of WP:BLP they feel is at issue. NickCT (talk) 22:50, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There's a whole section devoted to it at Talk:Chelsea_Manning#WP:BLP. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:57, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sportfan5000 is correct, but as NickCT's user page says he enjoys dialectics , I'll try showing how BLP applies in a way he may like. The spirit of BLP is concerned with protecting living people from suffering undue harm from changes made to their articles by uncaring anonymous accounts. Calling Chelsea by a name that misrepresents her gender and would very likely be harmful, possibly grievously so, as the poor woman seems to be already under severe mental stress. Syllogisms don't get much simpler, but if you're still not convinced, remember that recognized BLP experts right up to Jimbo have weighed in for Chelsea. FeydHuxtable (talk) 23:20, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
re "uncaring anonymous accounts" - So your argument then is that everyone arguing a "support" position is uncaring and anonymous? Ok. So I think we can dismiss that.
re "misrepresents her gender and would very likely be harmful" - So I take it you think that parents who don't give their kids gender appropriate names are harming their children grievously? Right.... We can dismiss that too.
re "recognized BLP experts up to Jimbo" - Citation needed. Can you point some source that recognizes Jimbo as an expert in WP:BLP? I presume you have eyes and can read. Go look at BLP yourself and tell me which sections apply. Unfortunately, a lot of people think WP:BLP means we can't say things about people that those people might dislike. It does not say that. NickCT (talk) 01:24, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If a child is already facing adversary for other reasons, then yes it could cause grievous psychological harm if their parents add to their troubles by giving them a name that misrepresents gender. Im not at all saying that all support voters are uncaring (Nor do I even suspect that.) Claiming I do from my description of the spirit of BLP is a logical fallacy. Some of your other questions have no concise and clear answer, but I hope you'll understand I dont want to further add to the size of this page given these basic logical misunderstandings. With reliable sources increasingly switching to Chelsea, the already weak case for the wrong name is collapsing, and it's not necessary for every last objector to be convinced. FeydHuxtable (talk) 06:35, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I guess it's also not necessary to convince the majority of folks who have weighed in in support of "Bradley". "every last objector"? Really.... There seems to be some difficult grasping reality here. NickCT (talk) 13:03, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Sportfan5000 Have you actually read that section? It makes somewhat weird cliams, like this issue somehow relates to the "subject's privacy.". I see no obvious way in which the title of this article relates to Manning's privacy. Do you? Stop guessing at which policies you think might support your opinion and point to actual passages. NickCT (talk) 01:18, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm skeptical of the applicability of many of the discussions of WP:COMMONNAME from several days ago. The situation has been evolving quickly, and more and more news sources have been switching to "Chelsea." What seemed a fairly even split in the immediate aftermath has become increasingly slanted towards Chelsea over the last day or two. Some of the earlier !votes are, simply put, obsolete. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:48, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
re " increasingly slanted towards Chelsea over the last day or two" - Agreed. That does seem to be the way the tide is turning, and I wouldn't be surprised if in a week or month's time the WP:COMMONNAME argument clearly supports "Chelsea". That said, WP:COMMONNAME didn't support "Chelsea" 5 days ago (when this change was initially made). NickCT (talk) 22:58, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but I'm not really sure what the value of discussing where the article should be five days ago is. We can't move the article five days ago, and if COMMONNAME is now pointing towards Chelsea that matters rather more than where it pointed five days ago. I mean, if people want to take David or Morwen to the ArbCom over five days ago, I suppose they can, but that's about the only forum where the correct location of the article as of five days ago seems relevant. Phil Sandifer (talk) 23:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Phil Sandifer - Well look. You seem willing to accept that the initial move was probably bad. I may agree with you that the world seems to begun to catch up with WP's bad decision, so a move back isn't necessary, but I think the right thing to do here is acknowledge the initial mistake, move the page back to Bradley and then reassess. I still don't think we can confidently say the majority of RS have made the switch, though it might very well end up that we move to "Bradley" just for a couple weeks. NickCT (talk) 01:34, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am terribly unpersuaded by the idea that there's some hazy fog of war here. Even if it is somewhere near an even split... we have sources that are somewhere between an even split and settled on Chelsea, a MOS that says to use Chelsea, BLP policy that says to avoid harm to the subject (which misgendering and misnaming both count as), and the past precedent in less politicized cases of prompt changes. The case for locating the article at "Bradley Manning" for any length of time seems terribly strained to me. Phil Sandifer (talk) 05:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The MOS issue has been covered. It doesn't say we should use Chelsea. And no one has given a good explanation as to exactly how BLP applies. NickCT (talk) 13:06, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
COMMONNAME also points back to the five criteria in the preceding section. It also says When there are several names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others. Even as some sources have made the switch, and -- as I said -- it's still questionable which name most sources use now, there remain issues of recognizable and naturalness (which, after all, are issues of how common a name is) with the name "Chelsea Manning". How big those issues are, whether those issues constitute "problems", is, of course, subjective, but I wouldn't be so quick to discount early supporting remarks referencing WP:COMMONNAME. -- tariqabjotu 02:53, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The closer, of course, will want to make a case by case judgment. Still, comments talking about lack of reliable sources using Chelsea made days ago are rapidly becoming obsolete. This surely counts for something. Phil Sandifer (talk) 05:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
At this point most of the articles are related to transgender issues and whether to use the name. The test will be a month from now when there will be little coverage. It is possible that mainstream media opposed to leaking will push Chelsea and the trans sexual issues a) for ratings and b) to downplay the government crimes issues and marginalize Manning's actions. Given that in various email forums and facebook groups I'm on that for years have touted activism for Manning's cause there was an immediate and almost total drop off in commentary following the announcement, it is not surprising that they've renamed the effort Private Manning Support Group. It's not that people are anti-trans, but that the newer issue takes a lot of study for many people to comprehend and feel connected to. And there's another war or two coming, so I already see major Manning supporter groups changing their focus to those issues. We'll see if the LGBT community, which tends to have a lot of pro-military supporters, is willing to take up the slack on the whistleblowing issue at all. In other words, time will tell Wikipedia wise. If WP:RS (not matter how biased) show the historical importance of whistleblowing is just a footnote to Chelsea's transexuality, so be it. User:Carolmooredc 12:43, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Chelsea Now the Most Famous Transgender Inmate in America

Chelsea Manning Is Now the Most Famous Transgender Inmate in America. Will She Be Treated Humanely? Slate.com. By Amanda Hess | Posted Thursday, Aug. 22, 2013.

I think she may be one of the most famous trans women in the world as well. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:47, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

At the present time you'd have a hard job demonstrating she isn't the highest profile trans* person in the world. How this plays out long term we can't yet know, but it wouldn't surprise me if she remains in the top 10 for a long while. Thryduulf (talk) 23:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Which one article provides more excuses to push a political agenda to the foreground rather than reflect what the person is best known for? User:Carolmooredc 12:23, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I understand your question. A person can be notable for many things and the trans issues simply are making everyone take pause while some on the religious right go apoplectic because OMG someone is changing their gender identity. Luckily the rest of the world is moving away from those tired views and Wikipedia can simply focus on what reliable sources bring forward. i think she is a major trans celebrity and newsrooms will soon be educating the world on more what it weans to transition and the legal hurdles one faces. Sportfan5000 (talk) 03:33, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay a "major trans celebrity"? Come on now enough of the personal opinions already. Also what you are saying is WP:CRYSTAL anyways, Manning was more notable as Bradley this is proven by the fact that books have been written about him, as well as the majority of sources that followed the trial. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:37, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't appreciate the snide remarks and these aren't just my opinions these are how the rest of the world is moving progressively forward. Gay marriage means that Chelsea can marry the man or woman she chooses, this was simply not true even a few years ago. Chelsea is a transwoman and of course a celebrity, the article points out she is the most famous transgender inmate. Your disagreement is with Slate.com. Sportfan5000 (talk) 03:45, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Again they are more of your personal opinions, come to think of it what does this have to do with improving the article if anything? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:50, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lede too long?

The lede is one paragraph too long. Per WP:LEAD, amount of paragraphs must be no more than four. Perhaps details might not be mentioned elsewhere besides lede. --George Ho (talk) 22:55, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this is an ironclad rule; the Hillary Rodham Clinton article has a five paragraph lead, despite repeated objections on this basis, because everyone there seems to think that each of the paragraphs deals with a particular and distinct part of her life. And the rule doesn't say that the "amount of paragraphs must be no more than four," it says "it should ideally contain no more than four paragraphs." I personally think that here too each paragraph deals with a distinct and important issue. YMMV. AgnosticAphid talk 23:07, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If all of the information currently in the lead is to be retained, then I agree that each paragraph is distinct enough to remain separate. However, I don't think that the fifth paragraph is important enough to be in the lead; I think JohnValeron was right to move it. -sche (talk) 01:08, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The lead should briefly summarize the response to the leaked material and sentence, which is what the final paragraph does. We currently have five paragraphs because the transgender announcement is a separate one. When things die down, that might be incorporated into one of the other paragraphs, or it might not given that it's quite distinct from the other issues. But this is not the right time to make that kind of editorial decision. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:37, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It passed GA with basically the same lead and the reviewer did seem to think it was a big deal. Consensus does appear to be fine with it. If it were to go for FA it would probably have to be incorporated into 4.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:05, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on some propositions and sources

Dear Wikipedians

Extended content
  1. Timeliness: Please forgive me if I am a little late to the party but it has taken me a few days to be able to make the time to discover and familiarise myself with the behind the scenes machinery of Wikipedia, as well as to find an established user to post this for me.
  2. Forum: Again, and for the same reasons, please forgive me if these comments would be more appropriately made elsewhere. I also believe that general policy can sometimes be usefully tested and if necessary evolved in a specific case rather than exclusively in the abstract.
  3. Proposition (as advanced in various forms on this page, in summary): Gender is a subjective and plastic matter to be determined, and changed if desired, by the individual Proposed authority: DM-V and others. Comment: I limit my comments to the DM-V but suspect they would equally apply to the other medical/psychological texts being cited. They DM-V may in fact not be authority for this proposition and indeed may in fact be authority for an essentially opposite proposition, namely: gender is immutable, having been fixed at birth (query whether those references should be to conception) and all that is capable of change is aspects of the expression of gender. By way of example I have extracted the following quotes from the DM-V, all emphasis mine: “Treatment is available to assist people with such distress to explore their gender identity and find a gender role that is comfortable for them … What helps one person alleviate gender dysphoria might be very different from what helps another person. This process may or may not involve a change in gender expression or body modifications...” and later “many individuals who receive treatment will find a gender role and expression that is comfortable for them, even if these differ from those associated with their sex assigned at birth”. Further authority: Any biological textbook. Proposal: Manning might self-identify and wish to live as a woman, others might support him in that, and he might take hormone therapy to alter his hormonal balance, etc., but an accurate encyclopedic description of him based on sources subjected to close scrutiny should be cast in those terms, as in: a biological male who self-identifies and lives as a woman and, if it is the case, who has undergone hormone therapy treatment, etc..
  4. Proposition (as advanced in various forms on this page, in summary): The choice of pronoun to describe an individual should be determined by that individual’s chosen gender. Proposed authority: MOS: Identity and WP: BLP. Counter-propositions: See item (3) above. Where a policy would prevent making an entry more accurate, disregard the policy. Authority: Wikipedia: Ignore all rules. Also, see the MOS (“Style and formatting choices should be consistent within an article, though not necessarily throughout Wikipedia as a whole”). Manning has implicitly acknowledged he is biological male. Authority: Manning’s statement released via his lawyer on 22 August. Entries should not obfuscate, let alone reverse, verifiable fact in order to avoid causing offence. Authority: Indirect, consider description of world as round and earth as billions of years old despite possibility of offence to some individuals of some religious persuasions. I’m sure direct authority will come easily to the hands of you more familiar with Wikipedia’s policies.
  5. Proposition (as implicit in a number of comments on this page, I suspect as a part-basis for resisting the change of Manning’s first name to Chelsea): The choice of pronoun to describe an individual should be determined by the gender commonly associated with that name, ie because Chelsea is commonly associated with women, then female pronouns become appropriate. Authority: None. Comment: This would come as a surprise to all of the women with names traditionally associated with men, for example “Charlie”. I’m sure further authority will come readily to those of you more familiar with Wikipedia and good writing guides.
  6. Proposition (as advanced above) Manning is not a criminal. Authority: None. Comment: This was a staggering comment to find on the discussion page for an encyclopedic entry Manning was convicted of a crime and is verifiably therefore a criminal.
  7. Proposition: The "MOS Identity" rule/guideline regulates decisions relating to Manning’s name and the pronoun to be used to describe him. Authority: None. Counter proposition: Where an entry would be improved by ignoring a policy, ignore the policy. Authority: Wikipedia: Ignore all rules. Further counter proposition: This guideline/rule begins with the qualifier "where there is no controversy". So I think its invocation to purportedly “settle” the controversy regarding the appropriate pronoun to use for Manning is inappropriate and lacking intellectual rigour. Authority: MOS Identity. Further counter proposition: See also my comment at (2) above, as in that general policy be useful advanced by discussions concerning specific examples. Authority: the common law legal system Others more familiar with scholarly dialectics will no doubt have more examples.
  8. Proposition: Individuals have the right to define themselves (advanced on this page in those terms as a basis for giving final and absolute priority to Manning in deciding whether to use the female pronoun to describe him). Authority: None. Comment: As with (6), this concerned me greatly. What is this right? I am completely unaware of it. Where does it come from? Where is it described? Is it of universal application? Is it superior to the group's right (if one exists) to define the individual, or to verifiable facts if they available? For those of you in the USA, please correct me if I am wrong but I do not believe it appears in your amended constitution or bill of rights, and in any case that would clearly be of limited global relevance.
  9. Proposition: "... society generally now accepts changes of gender identity happen and are real..." Authority: None, though see comments above regarding the DM V, which suggests that it may be a misleading over-statement to say that there is a general consensus in the scientific/medical community that gender can change, when instead it may be that the consensus is – critically – more limited to the expression of gender and the distress created by a dissonance between actual gender and self-identity. Comment: Which society? How is that general acceptance evidenced? Is there any controversy regarding that general acceptance?
  10. Proposition: Consensus is decisive. Authority: None. Comment: Wikipedia holds itself out as an encyclopedia, not as a weather-vane.
  11. General comment: Is Wikipedia an encyclopedia or a platform for advocacy: I know there is a policy on this, but ultimately I have written this post because I considered the article on Manning late last week jeopardised my ability to robustly defend the intellectual integrity of Wikipedia as a global encyclopedia to family, friends and colleagues, or to continue enthusiastically to donate to Wikipedia. The quality of the reasoning I discovered on this page, of which I have provided some examples have not only validated but amplified the concerns the article itself originally raised. I am concerned some contributors may be trying to lead the debate or at the least failing to apply the high standards of rigour to their propositions and the authorities they are citing (or not, as the case may be) for those propositions.

Regards Teamkric

I received and e-mail purportedly from Teamkric asking me to post the comment above. I'm not going to make an assessment as to how relevant the comments are. If some other editor feels this section ought to be collapsed or moved, I would not oppose. NickCT (talk) 01:47, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:Soapbox. Please collapse. User:Carolmooredc 12:28, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Everything here is just opinion...point #6 is a falsehood, though; Manning is a convicted criminal...a convicted spy, no less. The death penalty was a possibility, even, though the prosecutors chose not to seek it. Tarc (talk) 13:03, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed Manning is a convicted criminal. Whether you agree what they did was a crime or not is irrelevant. It is also completely irrelevant to what name or gender this page should use. Thryduulf (talk) 13:09, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hm, I believe I read #6 wrong, it read at first like this "Teamkric" was suggesting that manning was not a criminal, when in fact he was rebutting the claim made by others. Tarc (talk) 13:26, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is Manning a criminal

Boldly hatting this as it serves little purpose per talk
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


Calling the subject of this article things like a "criminal" and other name calling constitutes a personal attack and a violation of the policy on biographies of living people. He is not a criminal from an encyclopedic point of view, nor universally considered to be any such thing (the opinion that he is a "criminal" might be a minority opinion, however, just like some people hold all sorts of opinions not widely recognised). Josh Gorand (talk) 19:44, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

He is absolutely a criminal from an encyclopedic point of view. The only reason their is a Wikipedia article on Bradley Manning is because of his criminal activity. He is also universally considered a felon. He was tried and convicted. His conviction is not disputed and nobody in their right mind would actually dispute the fact that he downloaded half of the SIPR net and sent it to Wikileaks. While some may dispute why Manning did it, there is no legitimate debate over what actually occurred. His notoriety is the whole reason we are having this debate. An undeniable, convticted traitor regardless of individual opinions. IFreedom1212 (talk) 20:06, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I see you make further personal attacks against the subject violating BLP, now also including "traitor" and other offensive name calling and POV terms. No, he is not a "criminal" from an encyclopedic point of view and such name calling is completely unacceptable here. He is convicted, by one country, of a political crime, which is something different entirely from using name calling like "a criminal" or stating it as a fact. The Interpol doesn't recognise such convictions at all because they are political, and in most cases dubious or contested by others. It is almost universally agreed he is not criminal or anything of that sort, because out of the world's 196 countries, 195 countries don't consider him to be a criminal. The same applies to people convicted in politically motivated trials by Vladimir Putin's regime in Russia. And the reason we have an article is his whistleblowing, not any "criminal activity", and for which he has received prizes and been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. Josh Gorand (talk) 20:47, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Freedom is right, innocent until proven guilty and he was proven guilty by a jury, people do have a right to their opinions though but these are the facts. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:15, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Bradley/Chelsea manning is an American citizen who was found guilty in an American courtroom and sentenced to an American jail. It does not matter what the opinion of the world is, what matters is that Manning was found guilty, the world has no say in it lawfully speaking, another country also cant force the United States to release him or change their verdict. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:51, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but the POV of one country, the US, is no more valid than the point of view of the rest of the world. Manning is a UK citizen and not convicted of anything in his mother's country. Calling someone "a criminal" is a BLP violation and a personal attack. Josh Gorand (talk) 20:54, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A criminal is defined as a person who has committed a crime, and since Manning was convicted of committing a crime and sentenced to serve time for that crime, I don't follow your logic in saying he isn't a criminal from an encyclopedic pov. This WP article states he was charged with criminal conduct and subsequently convicted of criminal conduct, does it not?-- Isaidnoway (talk) 20:45, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, on wikipedia we use neutral language. If a Russian opposition leader is convicted by a court in Russia, we write that. Using name calling like "a criminal" is a POV, and a BLP violation in the case of a living person. Political convictions are not universally recognised. Josh Gorand (talk) 20:47, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We also use reliable sources on Wikipedia, and if the sources say that Manning was convicted of committing a crime, then he is indeed a criminal, and therefore it is not a form of "name calling", it's simply an established fact. If there is consensus not to use the term criminal in referring to Manning in this article, that's fine. But denying that reliable sources have identified him as a person convicted of criminal conduct is perplexing, to say the least.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 21:14, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Josh, you've gone off the deep-end here, into lala-land. We have, you may note, a whole TREE of categories, which brand people as "criminals" - see Category:Criminals by nationality for example. I think we have over 1000 categories. These categories have been around since ~2005, and I haven't seen any consensus to rename these categories. Your assertion that "criminal" is a BLP violation takes things a step too far.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:52, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Obi-Wan is correct. If you think calling an individual convicted of a crime a "criminal" is a BLP violation take it to BLP/N. I think consensus does not support that odd view. Capitalismojo (talk) 22:15, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Manning was convicted but not for treason, as far as I am aware, so calling her a traitor ought to be considered a WP:BLP violation. Also:

"convicted criminal" - like e.g. Nelson Mandela, Martin Niemöller, Giordano Bruno, Socrates, and Jesus?
— User:Stephan Schulz

Many whistleblowers are locked up in prisons around the world for the only "crime" of exposing corruption and war crimes. Space simian (talk) 22:25, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Manning was court-martialed, sentenced to 35 years at Ft. Leavenworth, saw a rank reduction to Private, and will be dishonorably discharged from The United States Army. Manning is, by every inarguable definition of the words, a "criminal" and a "spy". Regarding "the POV of one country, the US, is no more valid than the point of view of the rest of the world", it most assuredly is more valid; I daresay it is the only valid opinion on the matter. Manning is an American citizen, found guilty of theft and six counts of espionage, among other things. He's lucky the death penalty was taken off the table at the outset. If Josh Gorand feels that it is a "BLP violation and a personal attack", then he is free to bring the matter to the appropriate dispute board. I will say plainly, "Bradley Manning is a criminal", so Gorand is free to use me as a test case for his dispute filing. Tarc (talk) 22:28, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Key word here is court-martialed. Isn't the neutral way to describe what manning did as military offenses, rather than crimes? Cowardice and insubordination is defined under the same military laws as manning broke, and I would be careful in calling people that do that as criminals. Military justice should not be confused to the civilian judicial systems in which words like "criminal" is commonly attributed to. No "American courtroom" or jury of his peers was involved in the court-martialing of Manning. Belorn (talk) 22:50, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Manning didn't only violate military law, the most serious charge was brought under the Espionage Act of 1917, a federal law. Being a member of the Armed Forces simply dictated what venue he was tried in and what procedures were followed. He was found guilty of violating federal law, just as civilians have been in the past, e.g the Rosenbergs and Jonathan Pollard. Tarc (talk) 23:37, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion is quickly going down a very nasty path. Maybe someone should close this. Space simian (talk) 00:13, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. No point is being served by this discussion. Besides, it doesn't matter what we think, it matters what is reported in reliable sources, and there are way too many that discuss Manning as one who has been convicted of multiple felonies. Those sources means that it is not a violation of WP:BLP to report that they said he was a convicted felon. Other sources call the convictions a miscarriage of justice, and we should report that also.
In any event, can we get an uninvolved admin to close (and maybe hat) this section? GregJackP Boomer! 00:43, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Bollocks, it has not gone down any sort of "nasty path". Josh Gorand made a a claim regarding the subject's felonious status, a claim which was completely rebutted by a simple recitation of the facts of the case. If there are reliable sources that call it a "miscarriage of justice", I have no problem at all including those in the article, as that is an opinion about the crime. What I objected to was the attempted nullification of the crime by the initiator of this tangent. Tarc (talk) 01:04, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The actions that lead to Manning being criminally convicted are the only reason she is even notable. There are no grounds upon which an abundantly well-sourced conviction no longer acceptable to add to a BLP. It's literally the basis of notability in this case. NewAccount4Me (talk) 00:54, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Other-language wikis

I find it fascinating to see how other-language Wikipedias are dealing with this issue. While I realize this won't be relevant as a deciding factor for the naming of this article, I invite you, if you speak any other languages or can use Google Translate, to peruse the talk pages of this page on other wikis. It's interesting to see which ones have made the switch and which haven't, and what their rationales are. In many cases, the discussion has been almost as vigorous as ours has. Moncrief (talk) 16:27, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Move Page

Please place your arguments for/against the move in the RM section above.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:46, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I think it should be moved back to Bradley Manning for now. His name change to Chelsea Manning has no legal effect yet, and since when has Wikipedia simply used the preferred name instead of the name that the public uses. Chelsea Manning is not the name used to address him in court, nor is it used by any major media organization when discussing him, not his newfound gender identity. user:Purplepox01 20:36, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to you can add this as a support to move this back to Bradley in the move discussion above. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:39, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Many news organizations -- led by the AP, the biggest of them all -- have switched to Chelsea now, and Chelsea is widespread enough that if we move her page back, it will be seen by many as a political statement by Wikipedia to reject the new name. Also, her (the female pronouns are the ones that should be used) gender identity isn't "newfound;" she has considered herself female for years now, it's just now being made public. Dralwik|Have a Chat 20:43, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It is also a political statement for Wikipedia to accept the new name, worse the fact that we made headlines for doing so. WP:TITLECHANGES says to have the move discussion first when it comes to things like this. As for sources I still see CNN using Bradley, books have been written about Bradley, and in the media there are articles about how the name game is still being fought. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:57, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
True, but Wikipedia would have been forced to make a political statement either way on the name; there simply isn't any neutral third party name to call her by. CNN is a valid refutation, although the books are not, since they're from before the name announcement. Personally, I think both sides have good arguments for the title of the page; my main hope is that the female pronouns remain in the body of the article regardless of the title decision. Dralwik|Have a Chat 21:03, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As noted by Jumbo on Margaret Thatcher's page she is referred to as Roberts so yes I can see both pronouns being used. This section should be closed, nothing is going on here that is not already up in the move request. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:07, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is an important reminder, that NPOV isn't NO point of view (that'd be impossible), but NEUTRAL point of view. I seem to remember reading an essay or something that contained a similar concept, although I cannot find it now (Found it during the writing of the post, it turns out it comes from WP:NPOVFAQ ("a "view from nowhere"..." is not our aim!" (also, worst paraphrase ever, but I'm feeling lazy))) . No matter what we do, it is going to mean something politically. It is going to make headlines. And that's not "bad", it's *completely irrelevant*. Wikipedia does not shy away from topics merely because they are controversial, and given this, it means that there are cases that we must say something that is going to make waves. The only question is "what fulfills our policies of verifiable, non biased explanations, while fulfilling our duty to accuracy that we have when writing the biography of a living person". Or at least, that's how I would explain the question in front of us.Cam94509 (talk) 21:16, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) The BBC, The Independent, and Reuters (see caption) also haven't seem to have changed to "Chelsea Manning" yet. And that doesn't even touch upon the fact that it'll be awhile, I imagine, before we see "Chelsea Manning" in a title, where they can't say "formerly known as Bradley". Note, for example, that even though The New York Times has announced that they will refer to Manning as Chelsea, they have not updated their Manning page that has the subject's name at the top. Also, this concern about what moving the article back might signal is misplaced; the article should not have been moved until this consensus-building discussion took place, and we should not allow the publicity efforts by the admin who moved the article dissuade us from moving it back if that's what the result of this discussion requests. -- tariqabjotu 21:51, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
  1. ^ http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57600189/bradley-mannings-lawyer-gives-more-details-on-clients-desired-gender-change/
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