Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ukraine

Reviewing the romanization policy

I have proposed that we begin to use Ukrainian National/United Nations transliteration, instead of BGN/PCGN, for general transliteration. The rest of the world is beginning to do so already. Please discuss at Wikipedia talk:Romanization of Ukrainian#Update to the National 2010 system.

I have also proposed that we use Library of Congress (ALA–LC) transliteration for references. Practically every English-language library and bibliographic reference in the world does so. See Wikipedia talk:Romanization of Ukrainian#Library of Congress romanization for references —Michael Z. 2013-06-21 16:14 z

Help with a name?

How do Ukrainians spell Nikita Krylov? If someone could add it next to his name, that'd be cool, but so would just letting me know. Thanks. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:56, January 27, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, nevermind. I forgot Google Translate existed. Микита Крилов, yes? InedibleHulk (talk) 00:58, January 27, 2014 (UTC)

English name of the Transport Building in Kiev

How would you state the name of this building in English? File:Ukraine's_Ministry_of_Transport.jpg. Are there sources in English? Is it possible to write an English article on it? There are Ukranian and Russian articles about it: uk:Будинок Міністерства інфраструктури України and ru:Здание Министерства инфраструктуры Украины WhisperToMe (talk) 12:57, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

WhisperToMe, literally, it is a building of the Ministry of Infrastructure of Ukraine. In Soviet Union that particular building was known as the Aeroflot IT-center. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 05:48, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 17:46, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

City/town

One of my current activities is to add the population data (based on the 2013 population estimate) to the articles on Ukrainian raions and urban localities. When I started doing this, I realized that these articles are in complete chaos. I started to organize them by creating the pages on the administrative division like this one and then doing some cleanup of individual pages and eventually adding the population (see Murovani Kurylivtsi Raion as one of the best examples). One of the problems I discovered is a complete inconsistency of names; urban localities can be called city, town, urban-type settlement, townlet, and a number of other variations I encountered as well.

We had this problem earlier with regard to Russian urban localities (Russia has the same system of administrative division as Ukraine but in addition it has municipal divisions with is not relevant for my message). We solved it in the following way. Посёлок городского типа (смт) is always an urban-type settlement and never a town. It is explained in the article, and additionally we have an article on the types of localities in Russia, where this is explained as well. For город (мiсто) we could use both city and town, and we adopted the convention that if the population is above 100,000, it is city, and if it is below 100,000, it is town. I personally would have difficulties calling a locality with the population of 3,000 a city, and this means that the line should be drawn somewhere. 100,000 seems to be a reasonable number to draw this line.

Today, I was approached by DDima who suggested that we call all мiсто's cities, for homogeneity. I presented him my arguments, that it is more important to have the same convention as Russia uses (and I also used it for Kazakhstan since I seem to be the only user interested in the articles on Kazakhstani cities/towns), so that it would be much easier to readers who are not so well familiar with the former USSR. He did not object, but suggested that I discuss the convention here. I formally propose to use this convention for Ukrainian cities/towns/urban-type settlements.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:37, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree that some sort of consensus should be established. It IS somewhat strange calling a locality with a population of 3,000 a "city," especially since there are some urban-type settlements with populations much higher than that. However, since Ukraine is a much smaller country compared to Russia, I think that we should lower the threshold limit for calling it a city vs. a town to anywhere from 50,000 to 75,000. I just feel that we would exclude a lot of important cities by calling them "towns" rather than "cities" if the limit was 100,000.

If this is to be done then we would need to write an entire article on the types of populated settlements in Ukraine much like the respective one for Russian settlements since it might become confusing to some readers if there is a city/town difference for Ukrainian populated settlements in the English language, and no such difference in Ukrainian or Russian. I've attempted it in the past, but never had anything meaningful written. § DDima 19:48, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I would still prefer 100,000 (this still leaves 50+ cities, which is a lot), but I can certainly live with 50,000 or 75,000 if there is consensus for any of these numbers.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:00, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi. DDima asked me to chime in, although I haven’t been actively editing lately. Might be useful to get some input from WP:WikiProject Cities.

I think it is good to be consistent. (Personally, I would probably just use a generic term, like “settlement.”) I don’t see why a country with a smaller population should have a larger population threshold between towns and cities – why? Most of these were part of a single still-bigger country until 1991. Why was 100,000 chosen for Russia, and is there an archived discussion about that? Are there countries in other parts of the world where Wikipedia has had to differentiate towns and cities? Is there any international standard, say according to the UN, or city planners’ associations? Or any authoritative English-language sources on the subject?

Sorry to bring more questions than answers. —Michael Z. 2014-08-13 21:27 z

Michael, the consensus for Russia is here. There must have been a discussion, but I am afraid it will be a bit difficult to me to find it. Anyway, this is an arbitrary number, any other number could have been chosen instead. I am not aware of any international standards, and I am afraid they do not exist. We are in fact talking about language norms - how to properly translate a locality which has been granted a town/city rights.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:43, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Ymblanter, why dont you read the following article, administrative division of Ukraine? Also, please, take a look at uk:Містечко and Mistechko at Lingvo. According to the laws of Ukraine, a city (місто) in Ukraine is a locality of at least 10,000 people (not 100,000), however the locality population size could be irrelevant in many instances. Also, note that in Ukraine cities and urban-type settlements are both considered to be urban localities, while village and other settlements are considered to be rural localities. According to Merriam-Webster Dictionary, town is larger than village, while smaller than city. If your Ukrainian allows, I also invite you to familiarize yourself with works of Ukrainian historian Oleksandr Androshchuk such as "Urban settlements in a system of territorial organization of the UkrSSR in 1940-60s". Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 05:07, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

As a comment, the village of Skokie in Illinois has population of over 60,000. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 05:53, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, none of your arguments address my points. We are talking about the translation, not of the original Ukrainian terms which are in the law. The patronizing tone I unfortunately find unacceptable. You could have easily checked for example that I have edited this article.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:40, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Aleksandr Grigoryev raises an interesting fact that according to Ukrainian law a place with 10,000 people is a city. Maybe we can start using (per example): Zhdanivka (Ukrainian: Жданівка, Russian: Ждановка) is (according to Ukrainian law) a city in the Donetsk Oblast (province) of Ukraine..... and then let the reader make up for himself if she\he thinks the place is really a city, town, urban-type settlement etc. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 13:14, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Yulia Romero, small correction. In Ukrainian law a locality is not defined based only on its population. If most of its population is employed in a field of agriculture (farming, gardening, etc) and it has a population of 50,000, it would still be considered a village. However, I do not see how it is possible due to population density which would require to solve many issues such as roads, road traffic, hospitals, food distribution, and many others. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 13:21, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

No, according to the Ukrainian law, a city (whatever, a мiсто) is a locality which was granted a city status (town rights) according to the decision of the authorities (the government I believe but I am not sure what authority it is). The point is that no locality with the population below 10K will be granted the status.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:40, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Ymblanter, how will you explain a city status for such cities as Uhniv, Belz, Berestechko? A city of Uhniv has a population of just over 1,000(!). Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 14:09, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Unlike Uhniv, Belz and Berestechko have a great historical value and were cities long before the Soviet invasion of Ukraine. The city of Belz was a capital of the Kingdom of Rus before the capital was transferred to Lviv. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 14:12, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I am not sure why should I explain it. I have no relation to the Ukrainian government and I have no authority to grant town rights. I suspect that they already had town rights before the 10K population law was adopted.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:14, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Ymblanter, did not you say, "The point is that no locality with the population below 10K will be granted the status."? Therefore, I requested an explanation for such a claim. Please, understand me correctly, you are right about the population criterion for granting the city status, however, I am trying to explain that there are exceptions to the rule and the status is not granted purely on size of a locality. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 14:22, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree, and this is perfectly fine with me.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:29, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

To make things less or more complicated... Ukr. Pres. Petro Poroshenko in his decentralization of power plans proposed changing the labelling of administrative divisions. Lets hope this gets ride of this strange "places were everybody is working in the agriculture sector are always villages". — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 17:27, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

On the other hand, we could omit the use of town and stick to urban-type settlement (UTS) in order to avoid any further ambiguity. The use of town for the UTS was adopted purely out of a brevity. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 18:47, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

AfD

WHat's your opinion on 500th Anniversary of the Zaporozhian Cossacks? It's up for deletion. CesareAngelotti (talk) 18:16, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Disability in Ukraine

I created the article Disability in Ukraine today in order to "deepen" the subjects about Ukraine on Wikipedia. Unfortunately I have not so much time and had great problems finding (English) sources on Google.... Any help on the article is thus very welcome! — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 21:28, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Starobesheve

Would anyone with Ukrainian-language (or Russian-language) knowledge care to transfer either the Ukrainian (or Russian) article on Starobesheve to the English Wikipedia? It is an important town with regard to the War in Donbass, so it is rather annoying not to have an article on it. RGloucester — ☎ 03:55, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

None of these looks suitable for translation: the Russian article is substadard and 100 years outdated, and the Ukrainian one has a strong POV, for example, it mentions Russian-Ukrainian war. I started the article and I hope to be able to complete it by the end of the weekend (I am pretty busy today and tomorrow).--Ymblanter (talk) 07:07, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your work. RGloucester — ☎ 15:14, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Number of seats won during election or number of seats of the current faction in Infobox; or both?

I started here a discussion about the Infoboxes of political parties in Ukraine and what numbers they should have (number of seats won during election or number of seats of the current faction in Infobox; or both?). I hope many will join this discussion. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 17:03, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Rename/move needed f all pages called "pro-Russian unrest"

Hello, it is clear muvh of this is nt merly "po" Ruddian it s Rusian.orhesrtef. Current namingis POV as ittacitly endrsrs Putin propaganda line that is purely an internal Ukrsinin unrest. It is not. Thought? PetesOntheMerits (talk) 22:40, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Article for improvement of the week

Hi Guys, Maybe it's just me, but this project seems to have been pretty lifeless for the past months (or even years). For this reason, I would like to propose a collaborative project that all members can work on together called the Article for improvement of the week, or the Ukrainian Article for improvement, or... you get the point. The idea is based off of WP:TAFI, except it will be specific to this WikiProject.

So here are the rules:

1. Everyone who wants an article expanded nominates it to a specific page
2. Articles that get more than a certain number of votes go into the waiting list of articles for improvement
3. Everyone who collaborates must add at least one sentence to the article and add an incline citation. Copyediting is also encouraged.

Any discussion, suggestions, and corrections are encouraged. --BoguSlav 01:17, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Please leave your signature below if you support this initiative:

1. --BoguSlav 01:24, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Translation request

@Ymblanter: This article on the Russia Wikipedia has a wealth of good information about Donbas/Donbass. It would be nice if someone could work on translating that information and putting it into our article on the subject, as right now it is quite sparse. This is important, given the recent prominence of events in the region. I've pinged Ymblanter because he helped with a similiar request regarding Starobesheve. RGloucester — ☎ 16:26, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

I usually do not translate things, especially from the Russian Wikiedia, but I can have a look at the article and help expanding it.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:59, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your assistance. RGloucester — ☎ 16:42, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Changed my mind, sorry. Every time I say smth about Ukraine people seem to get upset, and I am not here to constantly get complaints and negative feedback. I hope somebody else would find time to do it.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:42, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal

Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:48, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

"Ukrainian White Steppe" & "Ukrainian Spotted Steppe"

FYI, the usage of "Ukrainian White Steppe" and "Ukrainian Spotted Steppe" is up for discussion, see Talk:Asturian Mountain -- 65.94.171.225 (talk) 06:16, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Expert attention

This is a notice about Category:Ukraine articles needing expert attention, which might be of interest to your WikiProject. Iceblock (talk) 20:15, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Ahatanhel Krymsky

A user is edit-warring in this article changing Kiev to Kyiv and reverting my edits. At the talk page they mentioned that they believe consensus is per article and if consensus has been achieved at Kiev this has no consequences for other articles. Since I am totally disappointed with ANI and try to spend there as little time as possible, I would appreciate if someone could help to resolve the issue. Note that the user previously introduced copyright violations to the article. Thanks.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:37, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, if nobody cares, why should I care?--Ymblanter (talk) 07:12, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Translation request

Hello, would someone translate this text into Ukrainian:

"Please do not contribute text in Ukrainian to English Wikipedia. Your contributions are more than welcome at the Ukrainian Wikipedia."

It will appear in a warning template in the list at Template:Not English.- – Gilliam (talk) 14:41, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Request for input

This may be of interest to members of WP Ukraine. There is a dispute on the article about the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development on what title the section of the article which is about the bank's 2014 suspension of new projects in Russia, in the light of the ongoing conflict. I would prefer to use the title "2014 suspension of new projects in Russia" but I've noticed this has been reverted twice now to "2014 Sanctions Tool against Russia". I'm not going to press my idea further, but more input from the community would be welcome as to which headline is the most NPOV and descriptive, I think. Yakikaki (talk) 20:04, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Peer review: Bolokhoveni

The article is about a medieval ethnic group dwelling in present-day Ukraine or Moldova. All comments here would be appreciated. Borsoka (talk) 05:52, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Translation request

Hello. I have a translation request for any Ukrainian speakers. While writing Taras Shevchenko Memorial (Washington, D.C.) I found the translation for one of the Ukrainian inscriptions (mentioned here), but there is another one I can't translate. You can see the inscription here. I know it's rather hard to read, but a portion of the text may help me find the full inscription on the interwebs. Thank you. APK whisper in my ear 08:28, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

One of the two is translated to English directly on the monument. Another one is a quotation of the 1857 piece "ЮРОДИВИЙ", which is

Коли ти видохнеш? Коли

Ми діждемося Вашингтона

З новим і праведним законом?

А діждемось-таки колись.

I will check now whether there is an English translation available.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:45, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

The English translation of the name is "The Holy Fool". --Ymblanter (talk) 09:50, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Which one is translated to English directly on the monument? Just to be clear, you're saying "When will Ukraine / have its Washington / with fair and just laws? / Someday we will!" is from "The Holy Fool" and is the Ukrainian text above? APK whisper in my ear 18:40, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

I can attempt a translation.

Коли ти видохнеш? / When will you be able to breathe a sigh of relief?

Коли Ми діждемося Вашингтона / When we finally get our own Washington

(This is a surprise twist. There's a pause after the word "when" and the phrase "we finally get our own Washington" is a surprise answer to "when" and the answer is designed to be said with a sigh)

З новим і праведним законом? / With new and just laws.

А діждемось-таки колись. / But we will wait for it - until it happens. (because it will happen one day)

This Ukrainian language poem is nuanced and has innuendos not apparent in the English translation. The English language is more direct, with very little opportunity to misunderstand. This poem is written in a way that hints at political dissidence, reminiscent of times when poems were written against the government, without actually saying anything directly that would get the poet in trouble with the authorities. USchick (talk) 19:08, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Thank you both for your assistance. APK whisper in my ear 19:26, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Seeking an article from the Ukrainian newspaper Ukraínskaya Pravda

I'm working on the article SpongeBob SquarePants and am trying to better understand an issue about the show that arose in Ukraine. In 2012, a group called Family Under the Protection of the Holy Virgin (which has been described by the Wall Street Journal as a "fringe Catholic website") sought to have SpongeBob (along with several other shows) banned from television in Ukraine. A government organization, called the Ukrainian National Expert Commission for Protecting Public Morality, reviewed the situation. From there, the details get really sketchy. Different English-language sources provide conflicting information, perhaps due to poor translation. I'm aware that at least some of these sources based their information on an article that was written for the Ukrainian newspaper Ukraínskaya Pravda (here is a link to the newspaper's website [1]). Since I can't read Ukrainian, I'm pretty helpless in trying to find this article. Is anyone able to do a search for articles about SpongeBob that have been written for this newspaper? If you're also able to explain what the article says, that would be fantastic, but even just finding the article would be a huge help. --Jpcase (talk) 03:38, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

P.S. Here is a link to the government Commission's website [2] It might have helpful information as well. --Jpcase (talk) 16:31, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

• See here: [3] with broken link [4]. 37.53.192.82 (talk) 14:55, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

You dont need to know Ukrainian, the article is in Russian, first of all. Secondly, google translate provides pretty accurate interpretation. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 21:42, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Translation help

Someone has helped me find articles that are relevant to my above post, but the person was unable to help with translation. Would someone here be willing to give me a hand? These are the articles: [5][6][7][8] I don't need a full translation; just an overview of what is said. Mainly, I'm curious whether any criticism of SpongeBob can be attributed to the government Commission itself, or if all of the criticism for the show stemmed from the Family Under the Protection of the Holy Virgin. --Jpcase (talk) 17:28, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

The Commission was asked to investigate the allegation that a list of shows is "harmful to children" and harmful to "family values" of Ukraine. The commission put together various panels of experts and did a number of investigations where children watched the shows and their behavior was monitored. The commission also researched how children in other countries react to these shows and how other countries deal with this issue, since these shows are everywhere and can't be controlled. The commission determined that these shows are unacceptable for children and pose a threat to the wellbeing of Ukraine. The commission urges the citizens of Ukraine to contact the President of Ukraine and get these shows blocked or at least limited in some way. Apparently the commission is unable to do anything other than make a recommendation. I see nothing about the Holy Virgin in any of the articles. Sponge Bob is mentioned by name, and it's a very long list. My personal opinion, is that Ukraine is not a country that would make this decision based on any religious reasons. "Family values" in Ukraine is a Soviet concept and has nothing to do with religion. USchick (talk) 18:56, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Taras Shevchenko Memorial

This is currently a GA nominee (just waiting for a reviewer). If anyone would like to read over it and check for errors/odd wording/MoS issues before the nomination process begins, I'd appreciate it. Thank you. APK whisper in my ear 19:55, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Talk:2 May 2014 Odessa clashes#Requested move 30 December 2014

There is an ongoing move request. --George Ho (talk) 11:13, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

WikiProject X is live!

Hello everyone!

You may have received a message from me earlier asking you to comment on my WikiProject X proposal. The good news is that WikiProject X is now live! In our first phase, we are focusing on research. At this time, we are looking for people to share their experiences with WikiProjects: good, bad, or neutral. We are also looking for WikiProjects that may be interested in trying out new tools and layouts that will make participating easier and projects easier to maintain. If you or your WikiProject are interested, check us out! Note that this is an opt-in program; no WikiProject will be required to change anything against its wishes. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you!

Note: To receive additional notifications about WikiProject X on this talk page, please add this page to Wikipedia:WikiProject X/Newsletter. Otherwise, this will be the last notification sent about WikiProject X.

Harej (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Districts (raions) of Donetsk city

What's the convention for naming districts of cities in Ukraine? If one takes a look at the category Category:Raions of Donetsk, one sees "Kiev Raion" or "Kirov Raion", and the like. This strikes me as odd. All sources I've seen refer to these as Kyivsky district, Kirovsky district, &c. I especially think it is odd to use "Kiev", given that this particular district has no common name, meaning that the standard Ukrainian transliteration should apply. How exactly is this laid out? RGloucester — ☎ 04:50, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Does no one have any ideas about this? It is still confusing for me. As a rule, I prefer translations when appropriate, i.e. "district" over "raion", and the like. However, as I know most fellows here are opposed to that, I won't try and push for that again. However, I think that maybe an exception should be made for raions of cities, as opposed to usual raions. It is somewhat confusing to refer these raions of cities as "raions", and it is not at all common in English. Perhaps raions of cities should be called "so and so" district? That's much better than "Kiev Raion, Donetsk", which doesn't appear to be common anywhere. RGloucester — ☎ 22:31, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

This project used to name district articles (not just city districts, but regular districts as well) using the transliterations of their Ukrainian spellings, but that changed at some point (I'm not sure there ever was a discussion, but I didn't pay attention that close, so I could have missed it). Now all the districts are named either after their administrative centers (resulting sometimes in different titles for the articles about the districts whose names in Ukrainian are identical) or, as is the case with the city districts, the proper part is simply translated (resulting in such odd constructs as "Factory Raion"). Not sure what's up with that. As you noted, hardly any Ukrainian districts (raions) would have a well-established common name in English, meaning that transliterating the original name is the only sensible thing to do in the vast majority (if not in all) of cases. As for the use of "raion" instead of "district", both are English words (albeit the former is a somewhat obscure loanword), so either is acceptable, as long as the usage is consistent.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); January 29, 2015; 13:11 (UTC)

Well, would anyone be up for reverting to the "Ukrainian transliteration" system? The absurdity of "Factory Raion" makes it clear that this simply isn't how these districts are referred to in English. I'm all for translation, when it makes sense, but this is instance where it simply does not. If the translations are not commonly used in sources, they should be thrown out. I'd recommend the following: use Ukrainian transliterations + district for raions of cities. Leave regular raions alone. That will make the distinction clearer, in English, and aligns more with how sources describe these entities. RGloucester — ☎ 14:29, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

@DDima: As you created many of the district articles, what do you think about this matter? RGloucester — ☎ 19:41, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

@RGloucester and Ezhiki: The original goal of having the naming convention of "administrative center" + "raion" was to remove the long "skyi" endings on district articles, making it easier for English speakers to understand what a "raion" is in its relationship to their administrative centers. Since we already had articles like Donetsk Oblast instead of DonetskA Oblast, then the same format was to be applied to raions. (If I'm not mistaken, it was proposed by MapLover in 2008, who himself is no longer participating on Wikipedia).

This system works great for the general Ukrainian raions since each one of them has an administrative center on which we can base the name. However, city raions do not give us such a luxury, so a hybrid mix was created by Aleksandr Grigoryev. I was never one in favor of naming articles such as Factory Raion as I find it quite odd myself. I believe his reasoning was in favor of Wikipedia:Use English. I myself prefer the Ukrainian variant of Zavodskyi Raion (but that isn't consistent with the standard of not having the -skyi endings—then again, that can be dropped for city raions as proposed by you above).

I agree that if outside readers are looking up about yet another separatist attack on Donetsk's "Zavodskyi Raion," then they might be somewhat bewildered by this hybrid mix. As long as the naming convention is all standardized, uniform, and consistent—it doesn't make much of a difference for me. § DDima 20:31, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Ah, so that's why city raion names end up looking odd. Well, as I said, I'd advocate leaving regular raions alone, as their names make sense. However, city rations, I believe, should use "skyi" ending + "district". This is in line with how sources describe them, more reasonable, and allows and easy differentiation between the two. RGloucester — ☎ 20:34, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

<*ec*>Well, the difference between the oblasts and raions is that the former tend to have established English names (so their names need not be transliterated), while the latter normally don't (so transliteration is the most reasonable option—any other approach would pretty much amount to original research). It's the same with the names of obscure localities—they hardly ever have established names in English and are normally referred to by a transliterated Ukrainian name. You would not, for example, rename the Nyzhnohirskyi article Lower Mountains just to get rid of the "-skyi" ending, would you? :) WP:UE itself states to "follow English-language usage", not to "use only English words". For obscure place names and lower-level divisions, it is an established practice in English to use romanized local names; that's the whole reason why BGN/PCGN romanization exists.

Anyway, since I don't edit articles about Ukraine much, I'm only here in an advisory capacity. I'm sure you'll folks figure this out :) Cheers,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); January 29, 2015; 20:46 (UTC)

Yea, I thought raion is already a well established term as there are a lot of articles, particularly, concerning Ukraine that have its districts named as raions. I kind of favor the use of district over raion though. When I joined the project, there already were a lot of articles named as raions rather than district. The city district names were based on convention used for Kiev. I case of Kiev, if the name of raion derived from a name of locality such as former village or town (Amur and Nizhnodniprovsk are former settlements) that were incorporated into the city, such name was not translated into English, otherwise raions such as Industrialnyi or Korabelnyi would be translated. I believe there was a discussion in regards of the -skyi ending use in names. We decided to get rid of the ending. Also, please, note that when the Ukraine's territory was occupied by the Western Powers such as Nazi Germany, they used the same system without endings of -skyi. RGloucester, your argument about differentiating raions sounds strange. We need to stick to one convention no matter if it is a city ration or a regular raion. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 20:53, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

We need to do what is done by RS, and RS use "skyi + district" for city raions. I can understand the justification for "administrative centre + raion" for regular raions, as explained by DDima, but there is no such justification for the bizarre translation/transliterations of city raions that are not found in sources. I think the separation is perfectly reasonable. City districts are commonly called "districts" in English, whereas "district" sounds odd to the English ear when referring to regular raions, as they are more like what we call counties. Regardless, all that I know is that the present system for city raions is not supported by RS. RGloucester — ☎ 20:57, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

If we are revising this subject about raions, what are you thoughts on raions that carry names such as Chervonozavodskyi or Tsentralnomiskyi? I think I already created an article or two named as City Center Raion (instead of Tsentralnomiskyi). What are your thoughts on that? Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 21:01, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

RGloucester, your argument about "RS" (whatever that means) also strange. As I mentioned before Ukraine was occupied by Nazi Germany which did not use ending of -skyi in naming their "reichsgebits" and "teilbezirks". Also, coming back to differentiating raions and districts, is it not infringing on original research by doing that? Just asking. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 21:08, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

I'd say that these districts do not have a common English name, meaning that they should be left as transliterations. A translation can be given in the article, but I don't think the title should be translated, unless we can find RS that refer to them as such. I don't think the Reich is relevant here. It isn't OR if RS maintain that distinction. RGloucester — ☎ 21:09, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, I think you are missing my point here, but I will cooperate no matter what the convention would be. Also, what about all the historical administrative divisions like voivodeships and governorates? Are we going to change them as well? Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 21:12, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Why would we? RGloucester — ☎ 21:13, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

In Russian Kiev Governorate is called Kievskaya guberniya, Kiev County is called Kievskiy uyezd (or Kyivskyi povit in Ukrainian). Or we are taking even earlier period, there was a Halytska zemlia as part of the Ruthenian Voivodeship (Ruske wojewodstwo). Also, about your statement that districts sound odd to the English ear. Have you checked the articles on administrative divisions of France? Are those names not an odd sound to the English ear? Just asking. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 21:22, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Here is a good example, Halicz Land, instead of zemlia halicka. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 21:25, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

That's very different, because it is a historical region discussed in sources with that name. There are no "districts" of France. We call them "arrondissements". As you are most likely aware, a large part of English vocabulary comes from French, and so we have no problem with French loan words. "District" can in theory be translated as "arrondissements", but that's not usually done. "Quartier" in French is more like what in English we call a "district". The word "district" also exists in French. Regardless, these comparisons don't make any sense. They have no relevance. The only thing that matters is how these units are described by RS. I can tell you that "Factory Raion" is not a common way of referring to anything. RGloucester — ☎ 21:34, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Also, RGloucester, what about the city districts of Kiev? We will have to redo them. By the way I found an encyclopedic support for your argument. Here is an article on Kharkiv at the Encyclopedia of Ukraine. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 21:37, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, we'd have to redo all the city districts, but that shouldn't be that hard. RGloucester — ☎ 21:39, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, if there are no objections, I'd like to start working on this. RGloucester — ☎ 04:59, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I have no objections. Perhaps it is be better to differentiate between city raions and regular raions as such (not to mention that they have a different legal standing and are on different levels of administrative subdivisions). If that's what we're rolling with amidst consensus, I'll help move all this stuff and fix all the broken links and such. § DDima 17:53, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Okay. I'll start to work on Category:Raions of cities in Ukraine in a bit. RGloucester — ☎ 18:52, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Also, I think it might be worthwhile to write up a guideline on Ukrainian places, so that the scheme is clear. RGloucester — ☎ 18:58, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I've made a draft: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Ukrainian places). Let's move this discussion there, and sort this out nice and simple. RGloucester — ☎ 19:06, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

thanks for creating the draft. May be a related question then: I often see Oblasts and Raions used with articles (the Donetsk Oblast, the Olevsk Raion). When I see it, I remove "the". Is this actually correct? Should we add this detail to the manual?--Ymblanter (talk) 21:27, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

In English, we'd never say "the Donetsk Oblast". We might say "the region of Donetsk", or "the oblast of Donetsk", but never "the Donetsk Oblast". RGloucester — ☎ 21:46, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

That's not the answer I got from a professional linguist a few (well, quite a few) years ago :) According to him, either variant is acceptable (although he leaned towards not using the article as well, stating that using it sounds somewhat parochial to his ear), as long as the usage is consistent. Based on that recommendation, I've been removing the definite article ever since... The only exception he could think of was "the Jewish Autonomous Oblast".—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); January 30, 2015; 21:56 (UTC)

It sounds more than parochial, to me. It sounds plain odd. I agree with him on the exception, though. RGloucester — ☎ 22:05, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

It might be also good to discuss disambiiguation rules since we started the discussion anyway. What is now current practice is different from what is here and als from what we use for Russia. (I do not have any opinion for which system would be better but since I edit articlers on administrative divisions it would be good to fix smth).--Ymblanter (talk) 21:35, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I only transcribed what I saw in practice. What did I get wrong? RGloucester — ☎ 21:46, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

For instance, we have Romaniv (urban-type settlement), which was renamed from Romaniv (UTS).--Ymblanter (talk) 22:03, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, it seems usage is mixed. Either way, I'd definitely not recommend that form of disambiguation. It is much less comprehensible, and gives the reader less information. There is also the possibility of having two uts of the same name. RGloucester — ☎ 22:05, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I am also not a fan of it, but I prefer not to determine any policies for Ukrainian articles for many reasons. I would go with any policy provided it is consistent.--Ymblanter (talk) 22:29, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, as I said before, if no one objects, I'd like to start working on city raions. Does any have any suggestions for the best way to start implementing the above proposal? Should I just go ahead and start moving stuff? RGloucester — ☎ 22:39, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Alright, I've done Category:Raions of Donetsk. Before I do anymore, I'd like someone to check out what've done and see if it was correct, or if anything needs fixing. RGloucester — ☎ 23:13, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

@Aleksandr Grigoryev, Ezhiki, Ymblanter, and RGloucester:, what do you guys feel should be the standard for naming rural councils (selsoviets) (and any other type of local government units in Ukraine)? At present, I've started a few articles and have named them "So and so Council" or "So and so Municipality" instead of the longer format "So and so Village Council" or "So and so City Council." Currently, we have articles such as Yalta Municipality instead of Yalta City Council or Avhustynivka Council instead of Avhustynivka Village Council, so I feel it would be best to stick with the shorter versions and keep "municipality" for city council articles and "council" for urban-type settlement/village council articles. Unless that is confusing for anyone, and anyone has any better suggestions? § DDima 04:45, 31 January 2015 (UTC)