Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)/Meta

Rather than create a new page for each move

Per precedent and AE by Zad68 and Gamaliel create this page to move a meta-discussion off the main GGC talk page. However, rather than create a new page for each move, I'm creating a Talk:Gamergate controversy/Meta page and putting the move here and treating each move as a new section. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 22:44, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Moved: Harsh language in the lede?

You will need to look at the main history to see the proper edit history prior to this move. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 22:44, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Harsh language in the lede?

With clocklike regularity, a new or zombie account arrives to claim the lede is biased and insist that calling threats of rape and murder exactly that is somehow not neutral. Reposting the question on behalf of the ineligible editor violates the spirit of the 30/500 rule and would render it pointless. When the editor has 500 useful edits, they can return here (but no, not to flog this dead horse which has been discussed many, many times in the archives.)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
A new participant in the talk page with about one year of Wikipedia experience has provided an evaluation of the lede (at 03:52, 3 June 2015 UTC) and opined that the overall result seems unbalanced. Do you have thoughts about how terms "rape", "misogynistic" may be considered as harsh language and about their neutrality in the lede? (That comment has been removed from the page because of the restriction on participants with less than 500 edits, you're not expected to engage in conversation with that user here). Diego (talk) 11:17, 3 June 2015 (UTC) "Rape threats" may be a harsh language, but they have also been a reality of Gamergate which have been widely recorded. In my opinion the word misogynistic as a subjective value judgement is unnecessary. We can trust our readers to come to their own conclusion regarding whether or not threats of rape are "misogynistic attacks."Bosstopher (talk) 11:32, 3 June 2015 (UTC) Neutrality is achieved when we represent the reliable sources. The reliable sources are quite consistent in their identification of the antics as "rape threats" and "misogynistic" so our depiction of "rape threats" and "misogynistic" attacks as "rape threats" and "misogynistic" attacks is quite appropriately neutral point of view- while not presenting them as "rape threats" and "misogynistic" attacks would be a dire violation of neutrality. The reliable sources focus on the "rape threats" and "misogynistic" nature of the campaign, and so when we focus on the "rape threats" and "misogynistic" nature of the campaign we are providing a neutral presentation of the subject- and not presenting "rape threats" and "misogynistic" attacks as the central issue would be a dire violation of neutrality. The reliable sources, when they cover the inane, untrue and conspiracy theories associated with gamergate, cover them as inane, untrue and conspiracy theories and so our presentation of them as inane, untrue and conspiracy theories is the neutral presentation - and not covering them as inane, untrue and conspiracy theories would be a dire violation of neutrality. So all in all, this "completely uninvolved" perspective of non neutrality is, like all of the other "completely uninvolved" editors who have pushed the same "concern", completely baseless and has been thoroughly covered multiple times in the 38 pages of archives. Can we hat this pointless repetition? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:10, 3 June 2015 (UTC) While the rape threats and misogynistic attacks are truthful to how the majority of RSes present the harassment and thus are elements that should be called out in the lede, we cannot judge this as "inane, untrue and conspiracy theories" as that is not a view taken by the majority of sources. Some (but far from a majority) sources do call GG's ideas as conspiracy theories, but few if any consider them inane or untrue, and that's judgemental language that is not present in a majority of sources that taints discussion. There's no question that the ethics concerns are lost under the weight of harassment and in many sources considered inactionable, but that's a far different stance from "inane, untrue and conspiracy theories". --MASEM (t) 12:58, 3 June 2015 (UTC) We ABSOLUTELY must treat the untrue claims about women's sex lives as untrue - fully loudly and repeatedly. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:10, 3 June 2015 (UTC) On that specific claim, yes but that's not what is being called out as a conspiracy theory by sources that use the term; those refer towards things like GG's stance towards GameJournalPro, DIGRA, and the like. --MASEM (t) 14:39, 3 June 2015 (UTC) (e/c) exactly - the the conspiracy theories that there is a massive journalistic conspiracy against gamergate or a massive conspiracy by feminists to take over games are clearly and uncontestedly presented by the reliable sources as nutjob conspiracy theories, and we also present them as such. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:30, 3 June 2015 (UTC) I object to closing and hiding this thread on these grounds and plan to undo it after waiting an appropriate amount of time. Chrisrus (talk) 15:36, 3 June 2015 (UTC) Which grounds do you object to? the fact that this is yet again a rehash of claims that have been beaten to death or the fact that the AE decision on how to deal with the unhelpful rehashing is being applied? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:46, 3 June 2015 (UTC) As I see it, the AE decision was intended to avoid that newcomers were bitten ("I don't think anybody would argue that that particular article, in the current environment, would be a great place for a truly new, good-faith editor to start their editing career" was the motivation stated by the admin imposing the ban), not to restrict the topics that could be brought to the talk page. There is no policy that forbids discussing already treated subjects - quite the contrary. Diego (talk) 15:54, 3 June 2015 (UTC) WP:DEADHORSE WP:CRUSH WP:TE -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:08, 3 June 2015 (UTC) Surely you know how to distinguish policy from essays? Diego (talk) 16:12, 3 June 2015 (UTC) Surely you can read the policy "Editors may propose a change to current consensus, especially to raise previously unconsidered arguments or circumstances. On the other hand, proposing to change a recent consensus can be disruptive"-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:15, 3 June 2015 (UTC) And what makes you or MarkBernstein the arbiters deciding when consensus has been reached and what discusions shouldn't be held? The wording in the lede in particular has always had editors worried about its neutrality and the problems of using loaded terms and judgements of value stated in Wikipedia's voice, as this thread demonstrates; it's far from a settled concern. Diego (talk) 16:22, 3 June 2015 (UTC) Policy. The one that you linked to earlier: "Consensus on Wikipedia does not mean unanimity (which, although an ideal result, is not always achievable); nor is it the result of a vote. Decision-making involves an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's policies and guidelines." There have been no legitimate concerns that have been raised that have not been repeatedly addressed by the sources and the polices and the guidelines. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:32, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Engaging in what amounts to a war of attrition by repeatedly reopening and re-arguing well-covered points (without a significant change in the parameters like sourcing or content policy) until others are simply exhausted, is indeed a form of disruptive editing recognized as tendentious editing. However, for tendentious editing to be actionable, it has to be tied to an individual account over time. The history of this Talk page shows that there have been attempts to exploit a weakness in the Wikipedia open editing model by engaging in tendentious editing without having it tied to a single account. The purpose of the AE page-level minimum qualification is to curtail disruption by making doing this more difficult. So, there is no restriction on established editors from picking up on points made by ineligible editors, but they need to do so under their own responsibility with their established accounts. If every time an ineligible account posts a general, inactionable complaint ("I feel the article is biased!" with no grounding in Wikipedia content policy) an eligible editor reposts it, that may establish a pattern of tendentious editing that can be actionable at WP:AE. Zad68 16:36, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Here you seem to be in clear violation of WP:ASSUMEGOODFAITH, a principle without which everything can fall apart, as you've provided no evidence that anyone in this thread is guilty of belonging to such a disruption campaign.

There seems to be another danger here, that we overreact to on-topic reader feedback and violate core principles that we hold most dear, such as The prime values of Wikipedia talk pages: Communication, Courtesy, and Consideration and WP:ASSUMEGOODFAITH. This danger makes the "danger" of repetitive, less-than-helpful talk page threads pale by comparison, because we have normal remedies such as directing readers who provide such feedback to the FAQs, providing stock replies, or just ignore them and let them age off into the archives, until such time they will make it less likely that others will open similar threads again. Closing and hiding this thread in this way make it more, not less likely that another such harmless, if annoying to some, threads will be opened tomorrow. Chrisrus (talk) 17:51, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Could we at least revisit the banning criterion? Handpolk has been around here longer than PeterTheFourth, yet the former is restricted and the latter is not, merely for being more prolific. That doesn't feel right. Diego (talk) 17:52, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Please take this up at Zad68's talk or at AE. sigh ForbiddenRocky (talk) 18:11, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I concur with Chrisrus (active since 2007, over 12000 edits). If my calculations are correct, in the two or three weeks so far that the ban has been enabled, there have been no more than five comments removed because of it. None of which seemed particularly disruptive, and at least two have triggered civil conversations between established editors.

This seems fairly manageable, so the problem doesn't look as severe as those supporting the feature make it appear. In fact the ban seems to have produced more discussion and disagreements about how it should be applied than the amount of problems it has prevented. Diego (talk) 18:18, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I would request that editors refrained from hatting the thread, trying to stop it every coment of two. Some of the discussion being held here is about how we collaborate to improve the article, you know. I've replied here because here is where Zad68 has posted his clarification. If you want to move the conversation elsewhere, at least first put a note that you're going to do so and wait until we all notice it. Sigh, indeed. Diego (talk) 18:18, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

No more than 5 comments...and this is a problem how? Your argument demonstrates how little the actual policy is enacted. Koncorde (talk) 19:23, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I propose that we follow the recent practice and move this meta discussion to its own subpage for those who wish to discuss for the sake of discussion. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:24, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm OK with moving the discussion to a subpage as was done with other previous threads, please just don't do it without previous warning while the conversation is ongoing. First create the target page and post a link to it, then hide the original thread when people has migrated to the new place. That's common sense. Diego (talk) 20:36, 3 June 2015 (UTC)