User talk:Agljones

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Hello, Agljones, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  Seasalt 06:02, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Quoting Sources

I have been filling in TT Races from 1939 back, and have used your description for the 1935 Isle of Man TT, but would like to cite the source or sources for the information, as per Wikipedia:Citing_sources. I have had a few "citation needed" notices for my own contributions, so was hoping to fill in the blanks. 1935 to 1939 are done, if you want to add anything to them? Seasalt 06:02, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

You are correct Agljones, H G Tyrrel Smith was an Irish motorcycle racer. Found it in some German race results. Thank you for the 1935 sources. This H G Tyrrel Smith was quite a winner, but have not found anything biographical on the net. I do not know the IOM course, so could not comment on the shortcomings or otherwise. I just fill in what info can be found with Google. Feel free to fill in or correct the details. Seasalt 14:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)Seasalt 14:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Good info! Everything I could find is here- User:Seasalt/Vincent Seasalt 13:16, 14 November 2006 (UTC)Seasalt 13:15, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Put up H G Tyrell Smith. Did 1932 Isle of Man TT and 1931 Isle of Man TT results, without preambles. Feel free. Good to see 1933 & 1934. Seasalt 11:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Edward Ambrose Mellors

A personal thanks for correcting rider nationalities, and for your "summaries". While I was never greatly interested in the TT before, I find the riders and "racing identities" quite colourful characters, and your race summaries add to the picture. Enjoyed the added H G Tyrell Smith info. I guess I should use tables more often.

On IOM TT site http://www.iomtt.com/TTDatabase/Riders.aspx?ride_id=644 there is a "bio" on Ted Mellors by his daughter that makes some claims I have not been able to verify. She says he was 1938 European Champion, but other sources say Ewald Kluge for '38 and '39. If you come across anything on Mellors please let me know. Seasalt 13:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

So it would be correct to say "350 cc European World Champion"? I like the Scotland tag myself. There's another one, Bob McIntyre is it? Not sure. Seasalt 12:25, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The inter-war TTs are all there now. The preambles are all from Isle of Man TT, and I assume are mostly your material, but I don't have any Isle of Man Weekly Times copies to check the dates and quote sources/references. I am hoping you might add them as you edit in new information. I am also hoping that my filling in the results tables and moving preambles was helpful, and not a negative factor. Liked the South African flag change. Did not think of different year/government flag versions. Appropriate. Thank you for the E A (Ted) Mellors info too. Seasalt 14:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Bob McIntyre article

I have just written a Bob McIntyre article, and found you have an article already. I will put it up on my userpage for u to have a look at and see if you feel ok about it being incorporated. Unless you are already working on a full text version, in which case you may feel free to use any portion u think appropriate. I will place the address here as soon as it is up. My apologies. I did not realise u had undertaken it. Seasalt 11:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Bob McIntyre draft I have not done any wikilinking in it. Should I? Seasalt 12:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the message about Bob McIntyre. I had created the entry after completed the 1957 Isle of Man TT Races entry. I had intended to expand the article for Bob McIntyre around the 100mph lap of 1957. I have been checking source material in regard to Bob McIntrye national service and the accident regarding his death in 1962. I thought about including his Manx Grand Prix entries and also the racing at the Southern 100 Races in the Isle of Man. I have just been looking at the Mike Halewood entry and was not too sure about using these types of summary tables. Perhaps, a format can be agreed to, as I have been using Stanley Woods as a base entry.

If you would like to go ahead and expand the entry for Bob McIntyre and perhaps include a photo. I had been waiting for somebody to contact me about the recent additions, but thought it may have been in respect to another entry rather than Bob McIntyre. I would like to expand the Jimmie Guthrie entry as I have been trying to check his war service. I understand both Guthrie and McIntrye where dispatch riders as was Geoff Duke.

Thanks (Agljones 12:43, 9 December 2006 (UTC))

Someone I'd do if I could find info, (the internet is lacking)....Walter Handley. I'll look in Wikipedia commons for picture, but have not mastered image upload protocols here yet.Seasalt 10:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Only problem was birthdate. You have 28 November, I had 2 November. My internet sources are all obviously derived from same place as they share paragraphs. I put 2 because had a reference for it, but if you've got a reliable source for 28, certainly change it to that. Feel free to change anything. Haven't looked for pic yet.Seasalt 12:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The source for Bob McIntyre birthdate is the book "Bob McIntyre - The Flying Scotsman" by Mick Walker. I will like to check entry, but I do not like to use just one source and this is the delay in finishing Bob McIntyre. The book also describes Bob McIntyre's National Service which he was the dispatch rider as he was the only one that could ride a motor-cycle!!!!

In respect to photos I had noticed that a picture was "borrowed" for the entry for Harold Daniels. I also find including photos difficult to upload.

For Walter Handley I found the following entry at http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/dh.htm ;-

Walter Leslie Handley (GB) 5 Apr 1902 - 15 Nov 1941 Walter Handley was born in Aston, Birmingham 1902. He was a well-known motor cyclist who won the Senior Manx TT in 1930. Handley’s Corner on the Manx TT circuit was named after him. He was also involved with car racing, driving Rileys. Entered the 1934 & 1935 Mannin Beg. He had a bad crash at hhe 1936 Empire Trophy after taking over Dixon’s third placed Riley. He was killed, serving with the Air Transport Auxiliary, Kirkbampton, Cumberland 1941.

Walter Handley's death is sometimes quoted as 1940. (Agljones 10:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC))

I found a bit more about WH doing Rex-Acme.There is information there I could use for Handley. I think one of my reference sites had more McIntyre death details...something like rained before 500 cc race, puddle on corner that was not there for earlier 250 race, fights way to front after bad start only to hit puddle, aquaplane off line, hit pothole, catapult into something solid.(tree?) It was an account given by a friend of his. Seasalt 11:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I have checked the Mick Walker book and it gives Bob McIntyre birth as the 28th November. It also gives a similar account to the accident at Oulton Park in 1962.

I am not too sure, but I understand that Walter Handley was a victim of a "friendly-fire" incident that occurred over the River Thames east of London, perhaps in the area of Canvey Island, Isle of Dogs or Isle of Sheppey.

Also, at the first Isle of Man TT Race in 1922, Walter Handley on his first ever lap of the Mountain Course turned right and commenced to ride the course in the wrong direction and was stopped by a Flag Marshall at Governor's Bridge. During practice for the 1935 TT Races, Walter Handley badly injured his thumb while replacing a primary drive chain when he stopped in Sulby Village.

(Agljones 12:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC))

I love that going the wrong way bit. At least he was luckier then than the rider that missed his turn and was killed on a newly erected barrier one year. I'd like to include it if I could have a source reference to keep the critics at bay? The Mick Walker book, do you have the page number where McIntyre's birthdate is mentioned? I think I can get the full title and ISBN number off the net to complete the reference. Mannin Beg and Mannin Moar(?), are they car races? Seasalt 13:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The details of the Mick Walker book are as follows;-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bob-Mcintyre-Flying-Mick-Walker/dp/1859835007/sr=1-1/qid=1165931870/ref=sr_1_1/203-7414946-3527934?ie=UTF8&s=books

The quote for Walter Handley going the wrong way in 1922 can be found in the ACU 1968(?) Isle of Man TT Race Guide and is the only written quote that I have seen for this.

The details for the events surrounding Walter Handley and the fatal aircraft crash may be found in the Keig Collection of TT photographs, but I am not sure what volume number.

The Mannin Beg and Mannin Moar Car races on the Isle of Man replaced the Tourist Trophy Car Races. The car races became the British Empire Trophy after the war. Various circuits where used including part of the TT Course and part of the Clypse Course and became known as the Willaston Curcuit. Former winners of the Mannin Beg and Mannin Moar Car race series include Dick Seaman and Prince Bira.

(Agljones 14:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC))

I got all that for the book, but the actual page number where the item of information appears is part of a full citation, hopefully as given for my Tragatsch references. Rex-Acme <ref name="Tragatsch"> Title: The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Motorcycles, Editor: Erwin Tragatsch, Publisher: New Burlington Books, Copyright: 1979 Quarto Publishing, Edition: 1988 Revised, Page 260, ISBN 0906286077</ref> (The internet references seem less rigorous.) Hope its not tiresome of me to ask which page of the book has McIntyre's birthdate? There are internet pages with the names and cars for races there (Mannin Beg and Moar), including Wal Handley for a couple of years. Not much to explain it tho, just results. Thank you for explaining. Having a try at FN motorcycles - Seasalt 11:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

The reference to Bob McIntyre birthdate was from Mick Walkers book and I picked-up a copy to read in W.H.Smith Bookshop just to check details. I will have to go back to W.H.Smith to look for page number. The book also gives the address and I presume it is from a copy of a birth certificate?

Walter Handley

The Keig Collection Vol 1 on page 36 describes Walter Handley as the motor-cycle messenger for the OK-Supreme factory and on his first lap of the TT Course made the wrong turn and travelled the wrong direction. I think the ACU TT Race Guide for 1968 gives a better account of this. It is a understandable mistake to make as I think the race paddock was moved as Douglas Corporation started building the TT Grandstand in the early 1920's and the area would have been all large fields and not heavily built-on as it is today.

The Mac McDiarmid book the 'Magic of the TT' makes a reference to the aircraft crash in which Walter Handley was killed. The aircraft involved was a Bell P-39 Airacobra which crashed on take-off. The book does not give a reference to the source of the information. The P-39 Airacobra is a very unsually type of aircraft for a member of the Air Transport Auxiliary to be flying. I found information that 601 Squadron where flying the P-39 Airacobra from Duxford before converting to the Supermarine Spitfire in 1942.

The only other source that I can give is a newspaper article about 10 years ago in which a TT rider that was part of Air Transport Auxiliary was killed in aircraft over Canvey Island that was shot down in a "friendly-fire" incident and I thought that this refered to Walter Handley. I also found information that Walter Rusk a team-mate of Jimmie Guthrie at Norton died in 1940 of pneumonia, but another source states that he was killed in a RAF flying accident. I can only concluded that perhaps the Mac McDiarmid book did not perhaps check their sources correctly in respect to Walter Handley crash. Also, I am not too sure what the original source of the story of Walter Handley taking the wrong-turn in 1922.

In the 1930's the Mannin Car Races where held the week before practice started for the TT Races. There was a number of circuits used including part of Douglas Promenade. After the war the races became the British Empire Trophy and in 1953 a driver was killed after hitting a bank and thrown out of a his car. The next driver through the corner ran-over the injured driver and was killed. This incident occurred about a 7-10 days after Les Graham was killed during the 1953 Senior TT Race. After adverse newspaper comment in the UK daily newspapers to these events a number of changes where made to the TT course and the first use of the Clypse Course.

(Agljones 12:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC))

AGL, you are a minefield of information. I have added the Walter Handley info, (Bell P-39 Airacobra, wrong way and thumb) and the reference for Kieg is of epic length by itself.

Seasalt 11:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I see what you mean about the P39, A new that year American naturally aspirated, hence low altitude (<17000feet) ground attack aircraft, used mainly by the Russians. Re-named P-400 for RAF. To be a P39c had to be one of first three? Needed long take-off area, underperformed, diverted to Russia from December 1941. "The Flying Cannon". Could evade Spitfires and Me109s at low altitude, but could not compete at high altitude.

Timeline: Ordered sight unseen. Eagerly anticipated as result of optimistic prototype specs, the first of three P39C arrived at RAF Colerne from US on July 3, 1941, other two next day (For testing) First British-purchased Airacobras began arriving at Colerne before the end of July. By the end of September, eleven machines had been received. No. 601 "County of London" Squadron was selected to be the first Fighter Command squadron to equip with the Airacobra. No. 601 Squadron pilots found numerous flaws and weaknesses. The Air Fighting Development Unit received a British Airacobra I on July 30. They subjected it to tests and completed their report on September 22. By the end of September, No. 601 Squadron had received permission to take its Airacobras into action. On October 9, two Airacobras took off from RAF Manston and flew across the Channel. On this raid, they shot up an enemy trawler near Gravelines. The next day two Airacobras visited the same area, but found no targets. On October 11, two aircraft flew to Gravelines and Calais and hit some enemy barges and then three Airacobras flew to Ostend, but no targets were found. After these four missions, the RAF Airacobras were taken off operations because of difficulties encountered with the compass. The compass was too close to the guns in the nose, and when the guns were fired, the compass got thrown out of alignment. Deviations of anything from 7 degrees to 165 degrees were recorded. Without a reliable compass, pilots tend to get themselves lost. In December of 1941, the Airacobra was officially withdrawn from operational service with the RAF. A decision was made to divert the bulk of the British Airacobra contract to Russia. They were re-crated and shipped to the Soviet Union during 1942. In all, the Soviet Union received 212 of the British Airacobras (some of them shipped direct from the USA), but 49 more were lost at sea en route. No 601 Squadron relinquished its 13 Airacobras in March of 1942 in favor of Spitfires. One Airacobra was fitted with an arrester hook and was used for deck landing trials at the RAE at Farnborough. See: Airacobra I for RAF, P-400

Air Transport Auxiliary: A far-sighted man, Gerald d'Erlanger, got permission to start an organisation to ferry passengers and aircraft around the country. Thus began the ATA, who eventually moved 309011 aircraft of 140 different types. They cleared the factories and took the aircraft to maintenance units and other squadrons of the RAF and Fleet Air Arm. Britain needed pilots to ferry new aircraft to service airfields and military bases across the country, from both manufacturer's airfields and maintenance units. It was not deemed viable to use fully-trained RAF pilots to ferry the aircraft, so the next best option was reluctantly accepted, this was to take on civilians who held a pilots licence. According to official records it was thought that it would take six hundred and twenty four civilians to replace twelve RAF pilots! For this target to be reached, it was finally agreed that the civilian pilots had to be recruited, rather than called up, to ensure the quality of the flying skills of the applicants and allow a rank structure to be based on experience.

Handley volunteered to shift aircraft round the country, must have held a pilot's licence, so was Kirkbampton a short runway? He wouldn't have necessarily ever flown one before. Seasalt 12:29, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The reference for Bob McIntyre and his date of birth can be found on page 8 of the Mick Walker book.

The reference to Walter Handley and his first practice lap on the TT Course in 1922 can be found on page 36 of the book "TT Topics and Tales" by David Wright. The quote appears from Walter Handley himself and I presume it may have been from an autobiography, however, no source is quoted. The same incident is quoted in the "ACU TT World Championship Road Races 1968 Official Programme and Guide" on page 25. The same page also quotes that Wal Handley received a letter of appreciation from the ACU after an incident at Greeba Castle during the 1929 Senior TT Race.

I have not been able to find the newspaper article that relates to a TT Rider that was killed in an aircraft accident during the war. However, I did find a recently published book about wartime airfields in the Northern England and Scotland. The entry for Kirkbride airfield (Ordnance Survey Map NY 227 558 GB Grid) near Kirkbampton, explains that a Capt W.L.Handley was killed flying a RAF Airacobra I due to a loss of control in November 1941. It did not say if this was on take-off or on final approach to Kirkbride or if Kirkbride was his intended destination. The Isle of Man Examiner for November 1941 does make a brief mention of Wal Handleys accident but no cause of the crash.

The book "The Magic of the TT. A century of racing over the Mountain" by Mac McDiarmid on page 133 describes the accident as "while serving as a ferry pilot in the Second World War when his Bell Airacobra crashed just after take-off near Carlisle." It is interesting that the same book gives a list of great TT Races and includes the 1939 Lightweight TT win by Ted Mellors in this list.

(Agljones 13:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC))

An Airacobra 1 in November 1941....Airacobra was off operations from October, withdrawn from service December.

Title: "The Keig Collection: six hundred photographs from the Manx House of Keig of T.T. riders and their machines from 1911 to 1939", vol 1, pp36, Author: Keig, Stanley Robertson, Published: Bruce Main-Smith & Co 1975, ISBN 0904365050 Is this previous page 36 source still valid? Seasalt 14:44, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

The Keig Collection is the correct title and there are 5 volumes in the series.

The details of the Wal Handley aircraft crash can be found in the Kirkbride section on pp143 of "Cumbria Airfields in the Second World War including The Isle of Man" by Martin Chorlton. The aircraft crash is descibed as a loss of control, 2 miles east of RAF Kirkbride near Fingland.

(Agljones 12:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC))

"The entry for Kirkbride airfield (Ordnance Survey Map NY 227 558 GB Grid) near Kirkbampton, explains that a Capt W.L.Handley was killed flying a RAF Airacobra I due to a loss of control in November 1941." (taken from above)Did that quote come from: Title: "Cumbria Airfields in the Second World War including The Isle of Man", Author: Martin Chorlton, Publisher: Countryside Books (25 Oct 2006), pp143, ISBN 1-85306-983-3, or another book on airfields? (If its same, is it the same page?) That sentence covers a lot. You've certainly done some very focussed research on this. I've included "The aircraft crash is descibed as a loss of control, 2 miles east of RAF Kirkbride near Fingland." under that reference, and paired with that afore-mentioned quote, gives a good explanation.Seasalt 12:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC) 1955 sidecar passengers...could find nothing on netSeasalt 13:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The description of loss of control is a quote from the book about Cumbria Airfields. I added the Ordnance Survey reference for Kirkbride airfield as there is another station at RAF Kingstown a few miles from Kirkbride village. I have not been able to find the newspaper article that I have refered to in respect to a wartime aircraft crash regarding a former TT rider. The Commonwealth War Graves Commission Website gives a reference to W.L.Handley and also there is an entry for W.F.Rusk that was killed in an aircraft accident during 1940. I presume that this is Walter Rusk, but another source gave cause of death as pneumonia.

I do no think it is possible to complete this part of Wal Handley's entry in full until more details can be found about the cause of the aircraft accident and also the circumstances regarding Walter Rusk. A website for aircraft crashes may give the correct information or perhaps contacting the MOD directly?

The letter of appreciation that was sent to Walter Handley in 1929, I think is reference to the crash at Greeba Castle which involved, Walter Handley, Jimmy Simpson, Jack Amlot and Doug Lamb who died later of his injuries.

I have also had problems with sidecar passengers in results and it is difficult to trace the correct passengers for the 1954 Sidecar TT Race. I would like to expand the narrative for the 1954 Junior TT Race, however I have mixed-up the lap-times in my notes and will have to check them. I have been rather side-tracked by the Handley aircraft crash. One last detail is the 1931 Junior TT results as the winner Percy Hunt is given a time of 3:34.21, 2nd place Jimmie Guthrie a time of 3:27.26 and 3rd place Ernie Nott a time of 3:33.01. This would indicate that Guthrie was the winner rather than Percy Hunt. However, the average race speed appears to be correct?

(Agljones 10:41, 20 December 2006 (UTC))

We probably have one of the more comprehensive internet articles on him already. Dont get sidetracked if it is only on account of my queries. I will check the '31 Junior info.Seasalt 11:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Though I can find no alternate source for times, the average speed would indicate a lap time of about 3:33:54 Seasalt 12:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Motorcycling Wikiproject

Welcome to the Motorcycling WikiProject. Hopefully you have a good time, start many new articles and can contribute lots to the existing ones as we need that. Cheers ww2censor 17:16, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Scottish Flag

Its use has been queried on the Talk:Bob McIntyre page. When I started here, "be bold" they said, but there are a multitude of conventions to be learnt that inhibit that, to slowly shape us into automatic wikiformatting editors. I think i'm about to discover the Wikipedia Flag Act.Seasalt 14:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I had the idea that eventually someone might insist on the British flag for Northern Ireland, England, Scotland, etc. Not yet. Seasalt 13:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

IoM tt site

Times out if I try to connect here in Australia, on all local computers I have tried, not just mine... can you still load IoMtt.com? I have not been able to get the site up since December 29. Seasalt 13:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no local Isle of Man access problem over the last two weeks with http://www.iomtt.com or http://www.ttwebsite.com. They are routed through Manx Telecom and they have been having problems with upgrading their internet and e-mail systems over the last year. Perhaps you should try after 1800 hours GMT. (Agljones 13:37, 4 January 2007 (UTC))

That is 4:00 am here. Ok, in the morning. Seasalt 13:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Could not get through until installed broadband today. The dial-up would time out. In now. Seasalt 04:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

1957 Isle of Man TT

There was no production racing in 1957, but why was that? - Seasalt 11:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

The 1957 Isle of Man TT Races was Golden Jubilee event and featured an 8 Lap Senior event. The reason for dropping clubman event may have been due to fall in entries and the widening gap between production motor-cycles and grand prix machines. Or it may have been due to congested practice and race timetable inluding practice on Clypse Course and reduction in practice time. It must have been complicated to close the road for practice on the Clypse Course and then have an practice session on the Mountain Course. The clubman race was also held on the last Saturday of practice week reducing overall practice time. This is Saturday practice is now traditionally the last practice session for the TT Races and is also the reserve practice day if practice time is reduced due to bad weather. (Agljones 12:32, 15 January 2007 (UTC))

Now there is a Rod Coleman (motorcycle racer), but have no birthdate yet. - Seasalt 10:19, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Rod Coleman

The TT Special 1951 (page 9 dated 4th June 1951) describes Rod Coleman or R.W.Coleman as a "motor-cycle dealer from Wanganui" and is aged 25 years. Also, Rod Coleman is the first official entrant from the New Zealand Auto-Cycle Union and first entered the Isle of Man TT Races in 1949 but did not race due to a crash in practice (TT Special 1953 - page 9 dated 8th June 1953). In an article in respect to New Zealand TT riders in the publication Island Racer 2004 - Page 68, Rod Coleman is decribed as the son of "Canonball Coleman" also from Wanganui who first raced at the 1930 Isle of Man TT but retired from the 1930 Junior and Senior Races. The first New Zealand competitor is also described as Alan Woodman who entered the 1910 Isle of Man TT Races, but lost a leg in a practice crash.

The only worry I have with this info is the "verifiability". Through my Ducati writing I have found that magazines without issn numbers are not considered "verifiable", and could be challenged. The standard for web sources is much less stringent. My Ducati material has not been challenged, but could be. I will use the information provided in the hope that it is not challenged, but know its possible. I get a bit upset when things I have edited or kept up-to-date get axed by enthusiastic rule studiers, like the "Major and Notable British Marques" info-box. It got changed into a list of manufacturers, because there were no criteria for "Major and Notable". Sometimes I think I am unsuited for encyclopedic rules.Seasalt 14:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

H G Tyrell Smith

Some further information about Henry Tyrell Smith;-

First motor-cycle an ex War Department Douglas and finished 2nd at the 1926 Leinster 200.

1924-1929 studied for Engineering Degree at Trinity College Dublin.

1936-1939 Experimental Department at Excelsior motor-cycles.

1939-1942 Bristol Aeroplane Co working on single cylinder test stands.

1942-1945 Direct Officer Commission for REME. Workshop Office for Guards Armoured Division during D-Day landings and Normandy. In 1945 promoted to Major as a Workshop Control Officer in an engine repair shop at Volkswagen in Wolfsburg. After being war worked in Experimental Department for Triumph Motor-Cycles.

Race Wins;-

1931

350cc Germany Grand Prix

250cc Dutch Grand Prix

1932

350cc Ulster Grand Prix - Rudge 77.89 mph

350cc Brooklands Grand Prix

1933

500cc Leinster 200

1934

250cc German Grand Prix

250cc Belgium Grand Prix

1936

250cc German Grand Prix

350cc Dublin 100

1937

350cc Dublin 100

250cc Leinster 200

1938

250cc North West 200

350cc Dublin 100

(TT Special 1953 - page 22 dated 12th June 1953)

Wal Handley

I have included further information about aircrash in 1941 to his biography and added information to his debut at the 1922 Isle of Man TT Races.

Race wins at Ulster Grand Prix for Wal Handley

1922 250cc Ok-Supreme 52.39mph

1923 250cc Rex-Acme 55.95

1933 350cc Velocette 83.63 mph

1935 350cc Velocette 86.65 mph

It all adds, and so do the info-boxes. Thanks for all the info you dig up. Seasalt 14:03, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Scottish Flag

I am not quite sure what the problem with the Scottish Flag. I have noticed that with the Scottish Formula 1 driver, David Coulthard the United Kingdom flag is used.

There is no problem yet, but i suspect one day, someone will insist on British flag alone for British riders. I hope I am wrong, for an unencyclopedic reason, personal preference. Even if they officially ride for Britain, it is interesting which part of the Union they come from.Seasalt 13:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Sources

With the entry for the Snaefell mountain course I have noticed for the description for the Course Names that some of this is directly quoting from the book The Magic of the TT Races by Mac McDiarmid. There is no source given and some of the information is incorrect and spelling mistakes have been transposed from the same book. I have added a template at the bottom of the page and added Keppel Gate and Creg-ny-Baa as separate enteries. For the entry for Tarquinio Provini, I intially thought that this is from the 2006 Offical TT Programme, but now I am not so sure.

(Agljones 13:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC))

If it is a direct copy, that is copy-vio (violates copyright). The wording should be different to the source material. You can of course change anything that is copyvio, or incorrect.Seasalt 13:51, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

For more information on using images, see the following pages:

• Wikipedia:Image use policy
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This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. If you need help on selecting a tag to use, or in adding the tag to the image description, feel free to post a message at Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. 15:06, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Identifying Royal Enfield

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/154/405552795_60165a3eda_b.jpg

Myredroom 17:46, 28 February 2007 (UTC) was wondering if i could identify the Enfield in the photo. Do you know anything about these models? My answer was -

1938 single port J model 500cc is my best guess. There was also a "twin port" J2 model, with two exhaust ports splitting from the single exhaust valve, giving a twin pipe exhaust. Mainly sidecar machine. The J model was also sold after ww2, but with telescopic forks. Your picture has the pre-war girder forks. Good for 75mph with stock low gearing. I am going on the straight back rear stand, as i cannot be entirely certain from engine appearance alone that it is not a 350 variant. Seasalt 11:05, 2 March 2007 (UTC)Seasalt 10:54, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Canadian flag

I apologize, I didn't see your edit regarding the Canadian flag. I thought you might have mis-edited. The Flag of Canada page shows its first appearance as February 1965. Of course wikipedia might be mistaken :) Orsoni 14:24, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Snaefell

Thanks for your rewrite on Snaefell mountain course. The entry was in desperate need of it, I'm just completely ignorant to the topic. The article is looking worlds better now! skyskraper 09:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Snaefell mountain course

If you have finished with the rewrite, it may be time to remove the rewrite tag. What do you think? BTW, I modded the template with the show/hide navigation style. Hope you agree. Cheers ww2censor 16:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the improvements to TT Course names template. The Snaefell mountain course needed a re-write as some of postings where plagarised directly from the internet and book "The Magic of The TT. A Century of Racing over The Mountain" by Mac McDiarmid. The re-write style is based on the Formula 1 racing circuit Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps although I have not been able to find a map of the TT Course suitable to be displayed. I will try to add more information to the history of the Snaefell mountain course and also increase the number of TT course names.

The template for TT Riders has also attracted some comment. It was created after Wikipedia indicated that some entries for the TT Races where "orphaned" or did not have sufficient links. It was meant for TT Riders which do not appear extensively in the TT results and are significant to the history of the TT races such as Archie Birkin, Victor Surridge, Frederick James Walker and Inge Stoll. I think it may be appropriate that a large number of pre-war TT riders may be included in this list, but not to be used extensively to list all post-war TT Races world championship competitors for the period 1947-1976. However, I have included Santiago Herrero in this list which you may find acceptable. {Agljones 12:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)}

I wonder why you removed a book reference from this article which reduces the useful information rather than enhance it. Seems like a strange edit to me. Cheers ww2censor 13:41, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Removing book reference was a general tidy-up before start of TT 2007. Also, the entry was the "The Magic of The TT. A Century of Racing over The Mountain" by Mac McDiarmid many entries are plagarised directly into TT wikipedia articles including this Mountain Course entry. Also this Mac McDiarmid book has many incorrect information and spelling mistakes which has been plagarised into other TT books and magazines which is unhelpful. Perhaps a book reference list and bibliography at the end of the main Isle of Man TT Races entry????

Also, I have now finished a basic entry for Jimmie Guthrie but perhaps needs some North West 200 and Ulster Grand Prix results added. I have more information about Stanley Woods for the 1923 and 1924 Isle of Man TT Races as well. I wanted to complete Jimmie Guthrie entry before moving-on to other enteries and I have some information now for Phillip McCallan and Bruce Anstey. I would have liked to have finished all the TT enteries before TT 2007 but this seems not be the case as it is alot of work. Sometimes the results need to be checked and the only way of doing this is the archive at the National Manx Museum and it has been closed three times in the last few months for refurbishment including a new TT Gallery which opens on the 26 May. Finally, it seems that the BBC Isle of Man site has in the last couple of days a link to the Isle of Man TT Races wikipedia site. {Agljones 11:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC)}

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Barnstar

		The Original Barnstar
		A thank you for your work on the IOM TT... just so you know it was noticed --Badgernet Talk 10:35, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

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M/c template

Why title this "Irish Republic Racing Circuits" when an island template would not be much larger and avoid any naming problems? There is no such place as "Irish Republic", the current name you use? BTW, where are we going to get the info for these circuits, some of which I attended in the 1960s & 70s. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 16:28, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Manx Electric Railway Diagram

Thanks for the update of this, but for some reason you've deleted the stopping places that were all on the list, meaning that the following/preceding station box for each respective article is now inconsistent. I can understnad your logic to an extent but some considerable time was spent adding these to make it complete. Please could you add these back as they represent a complete list of the railway's stopping places and/or crossings and each one has its own article in existence. Cheers Gordonastill (talk) 09:00, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Isle of Man TT

Regarding your response, is that in article? If not, do you mind if I post it verbatim into the article? Seems very useful! --AW (talk) 07:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

The description of the name of the Isle of Man Tourist Trophy is mentioned in the opening paragraphs of the article. The choice of a trophy over a Cup is more relevant to the description of the Montague Trophy now known as the RAC Tourist Trophy. The actual Isle of Man Tourist Trophy is influenced by the stylised version of Olympic God Hermes by Giovanni Da Bologna which is a feature of the Montague Trophy. The Isle of Man Tourist Trophy is a much larger silver trophy than the gold Montague Trophy. There are a series of trophies presented to the winners of the various events including, Junior TT, Lightweight TT and Lightweight TT races and feature the silver figurine by Giovanni Da Bologna astride a winged wheel. The original Isle of Man Tourist Trophy (the Marquis de Mouzilly St. Mars Trophy) is now presented annually to the winner of the Isle of Man Senior TT Motor-Cycle Race. Any postings to the article require a verifiable source rather than verbatim and the description of the Montague Trophy is found in the book TT Pioneers - Early Car Racing in the Isle of Man by Robert Kelly. Perhaps a separate article about the actual race trophies and the replicas presented to race competitors may be more appropriate. Agljones (talk) 10:01, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Ian Lougher

iomtt.com does have Lougher with 10 wins. What sources do you have for your 9 Wins? --Dangermouse600 (talk) 18:16, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

The 2009 Ultra-Lightweight TT and Lightweight TT were held over 2 legs and on a points scoring system. It is correct that Ian Lougher won both legs of the Lightweight TT and leg 1 of the Ultra-Lightweight race. The final position was decided on a point scoring system to decided the winner of the trophies. The leg 2 win of the Ultra-Lightweight by Chris Palmer is not considered to be winner of the 2009 Ultra-Lightweight TT race as the this was won by Ian Lougher over the 2 legs on the points scoring system. The details on iomtt.com are not always correct or contain the current information. It is correct that Ian Lougher has 10 race wins and under the points scoring scheme has 9 Isle of Man TT wins and Chris Palmer 3 TT wins. The scoring system has seemed to been forgotten about and was not a great success. The 2010 Isle of Man TT programme list the 2 legs of both Ultra-Lightweight TT and Lightweight TT and it does not give a complete list of TT winners and the number of TT wins. I download the championship table for the 2009 Ultra-Lightweight TT and Lightweight TT but did not include it in the Wikipedia results for the 2009 Isle of Man TT as the table was over complicated. Agljones (talk) 19:41, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

I see your point. (That comes when stupid regulation-changes are made) You are right, when Lougher is credited with 10 wins, Palmer should get his win from the second Ultra-Lightweigt-Race too. Otherwise one could count none of these wins, because they were reached on Billown Circuit and not on the Real Mountain Circuit. But I think there should be some official counting which could be cited by Wikipedia. And where to get this if not from iomtt.com? And in the 2010 TT we do also have a points-system, the Joey Dunlop-Trophy. But a race win is a race win, isn`t it. By the way: On his homepage Lougher speaks of 10 wins, too. --Dangermouse600 (talk) 22:22, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

I have emailed iomtt.com and asked them about the points scoring system for the 2009 Ultra-Lightweight and Lightweight Races. The details on iomtt.com are not always correct and are often incomplete. I was listening to the radio commentary during the delay to the start of 2010 Superbike Race and the radio commentator read the list of TT winners with 10 wins or more and did not include Ian Lougher in the list. For example, if a race is red-flagged and then restarted and a competitor 'wins' both parts it is consider as one race win rather than two wins. I do not think it is possible that iomtt.com will reply this week and it may be the case of asking the ACU for a clarification. I have now found the points table for the 2009 Ultra-Lightweight and Lightweight Races and I may include them on Wikipedia. Agljones (talk) 09:21, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

The Billown TT Races 2009 Official Programme on page 2 there is a statement from the Clerk of the Course that says;- "This year the Ultra-Lightweight and Lightweight races take on a new format with each race being decided over 2 eight-lap legs and the result being declared using the BSB points scoring system." Agljones (talk) 22:28, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I understand what you want to say. But because of this stupid regularies it is now POV how much wins Lougher has. And as Wikipedia does no Original Research we have to cite something. Iomtt.com, Loughers Homepage, some minutes ago on ManxRadio they also spoke of 10 Wins. No one beside you counts 9 Wins. --Dangermouse600 (talk) 14:24, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I have not had a reply to my email from iomtt.com about the 2009 Billown TT. It may be next week before I get a reply or more likely that I will have resend the email. The statement from the Clerk of the Course is clear in how each race is decided over 2 legs and the correct research has been cited. If you listen carefully to Manx Radio they have been using Wikipedia for information ! In respect to the Isle of Man TT Races or the Manx Grand Prix a high degree of care is required compared to some other articles and often extra research and cross checking information is required. I usually quote only newspaper sources or books or magazines. I rarely use internet sites to cite information and particularly with the Isle of Man TT races I do not indulge in this practice. If you read the Island Racer 2009 Magazine carefully it quotes both 7 and 8 wins for Ian Lougher before the start of the 2009 Isle of Man TT Races. I think if you check I have not re-edited the total number of wins for Ian Lougher on the main Isle of Man TT Races page and I have not asked for arbitration with Wikipedia for a dispute over the issue. I am still waiting for a reply from iomtt.com over a difficult regulation created by the ACU. Agljones (talk) 21:11, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

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2011 Isle of Man TT Race results

I've been working on this new results box look and wanted to ask before adding it up on the 2011 IoM page, if you cool with it. check it out [1]. Marty Rockatansky (talk) 08:57, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

It is a nice result box and it must have taken sometime to complete. I have thought for a couple of years of changing the format of the Isle of Man TT Races result box. The problem is that the Isle of Man TT is a time-trial and not an race like a Moto GP event. I find the information in the result box a little confusing and difficult to locate the average race speed and time which is on the far right. I would remove all the race advertising including the names of the teams which is the correct Wikipdeia policy that I have followed for the last 5 years as the Isle of Man TT Races is not a Moto GP event or Formula 1 race. The results box needs to easy to read for people not familiar with the Isle of Man TT Races. This morning I was considering adding a time difference column to the Superbike practice times, although the official results do not show this. Last year for the 2010 Isle of Man TT Races I was considering creating a separate page for each of the practice sessions showing all the times and a seperate page for the results showing the full final classification and the lap by lap times. If you like to use this info box for the race results and I think I would stop contributing to Wikipedia as I would find it too time consuming and difficult to follow this format that you propose. I also update the Manx Grand Prix, North West 200 and Ulster Grand Prix and work on the previous historic Isle of Man TT Race results and would find the changes too difficult. I was going to add the Superstock and Sidecar practice times before the next Isle of Man TT Races on Monday and many other details to the 2011 Isle of Man TT page. Please let me know what you decided as I will have to explain the situation to some of the other contributors as there was work in progress on a new Isle of Man TT Races page. Good Luck ! Agljones (talk) 16:14, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Thats why I asked you, before doing any structural changes like that. You guys have been contributing for TT and other race results here far longer than me. It wasn't my intention to start changing the formats but just to add some information for the pre existing tables. i got a same problem with results they have at iomtt site. Theres no time difference at the end of the race, no race starting lists or any notes on DNS or RET's. For example some high profile non starters like Ryan Farguahar or a 1st lap retirement of Michael Rutter at Cruickshanks. So let me work on the table, make it simpler, remove the entrant column and each individual lap times, too many numbers i agree with you.cheers.Marty Rockatansky (talk) 00:26, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I have been completing the Isle of Man TT results by myself for nearly 5 years. There was a contributer from New Zealand that completed some of the earlier results from the 1920's and 1930's and then stopped in 2006 and made no further entries. The Isle of Man TT Races is a time trial and a time difference at the end of the race is not appropriate and perhaps misleading. This issue was raised in 2008 with Bruce Anstey in the 2008 Supersport TT Race 2 when he crossed the finish-line in 3d place and declared the winner on corrected time. There are many problems with Official results and you will find many spelling mistakes, incorrect listings of machine and a competitor declared on the final classification are missed-off on the lap-by-lap chart. The full 2010 Sidecar TT Race 1 and the 2010 Senior TT race results are also incorrect and with many mistakes. The results are in mph only and there are no metric conversions as the Isle of Man is not part of the European Community and there is no legal obligation to provided this type of conversion. The Radio TT coverage confirmed that Ryan Farquhar was a non-starter and the newcommer Simon Andrews (34) stopped at the Quarterbridge on lap 1. I was working on the 2011 TT Championship results and the I was going to use a Moto GP table which would have eventually shown Michael Rutter's DNF during the Superbike TT Race. I have taken many notes from the Radio TT coverage this year and this cannot be used in Wikipedia as it original research. Agljones (talk) 07:17, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

In your opinion what is the most comprehensive source of TT results, from the past years as well as recent? I collect and keep results myself. If you don't mind, there's some info i'm missing from Superbike TT race: I have 65 starters, not including riders #38?, #65? - were they DNS or retirements. From Supersport TT - RIP Derek Brien. - missing #36, #48, #50 were they considered non starters form the race or just missing numbers.- Was #53 Brian McCormack non starter on the three lap race or a 1st lap retirement. Your expertise is much appreciated. ThxMarty Rockatansky (talk) 22:58, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

The best source for TT results is the iomtt.com website. The results for the early years (1907-1925) are incomplete at the iomtt.com website and have to be checked with newspaper and magazine sources. The post-war results can be found in the TT editions of the Motor Cycle & The Motor Cyclist magazine which can be found on Ebay. The best way to research TT results is to cross check various newspaper and magazine articles and the internet.

Thats pretty much what I've been doing. Always find something new..

In the 2011 Superbike TT race, #65 Fabrice Miguet was listed as non-starter before the race. During lap 1 of the Superbike TT there was two retirements including #34 Simon Andrews and another unidentified competitor. In the Supersport TT Race 1 there was a changes of numbers including Cameron Donald moving to #4, Rob Barber moving from #36 to #27 and number #50 James Ford is a non-starter. In the Official Programme for the Supersport TT Race there is no listing for competitor #48 and the entry is blank. There was a number of non-starters and change of competitors for the 2011 Superstock TT Races. I will try to find out if #53 Brian McCormack was a non-starter for Supersport TT Race. Agljones (talk) 19:01, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

The Superbike TT race i have now is fairly complete. Race numbers from 1-69.

• DNS #4 Ian Hutchinson
• DNS #7 Ryan Farquhar
• DNS #38 David Hewson
• DNS #65 Fabrice Miquet

65 starters and according to iomtt 60 riders completed 1 lap. First lap retirements:

1. 14 Michael Rutter at Cruikshanks.
2. 21 Davy Morgan at Quarter Bridge.
3. 24 Jeremy Toye at Black Dub.
4. 34 Simon Andrews at Quarter Bridge.
5. 51 Brian McCormack at ? - according to his blog "on the first section".

Would be good to cross reference other races as well with you if you don't mind.cheersMarty Rockatansky (talk) 20:54, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

There was delayed start for Supersport TT Race on Wednesday 8th June 2011 with the race starting at 12:40 pm. The non-starters for the race were #7, #16, #36, #37, #44, #50 and #52.

The changes to number included;-

1. 4 Cameron Donald
2. 14 Ben Wylie
3. 20 Jim Hodson
4. 27 Rob Barber
5. 31 Gary Carswell
6. 39 Rob Wilson
7. 40 Brandon Cretu
8. 41 Bill Callister
9. 42 Dan Hegerty
10. 43 Dean Harrison
11. 53 Brian McCormack
12. 56 Herve Gantner
13. 57 Alan Brew
14. 59 Davy Morgan

Further non-starters not arriving at the startline include;-

1. 13 Adrian Archibald
2. 21 Dan Stewart
3. 53 Brian McCormack
4. 57 Alan Brew
5. 59 Davy Morgan

The leaders at the end of lap 1 at the TT Grandstand;

Rank	Rider	Time
1.	Michael Dunlop	18' 15.42
2.	William Dunlop	+ 1.90
3.	Cameron Donald	+ 9.52
4.	Guy Martin	+18.40
5.	Dan Kneen	+23.58
6.	Bruce Anstey	+28.17

Retiring at the TT Grandstand at the end of lap was #11 Gary Johnson with an electrical fault. On lap 2, #2 Keith Amor crashed on the Union Mills Railway bridge and #15 Mark Parrett crashed at Laurel Bank sustaining an ankle injury. After a rain shower in the Union Mills area of the Snaefell Mountain Course and further rain at Glen Helen the race was red-flagged and later abandoned. Agljones (talk) 06:59, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Just a quick note

Greetings; I know I have been on your case regarding the dates thing, and I apologise if I have been very snippy with some of the edit summaries. All I wanted was for all the articles to conform with the MoS for dates, and may have done so in an inappropriate manner and did not mean to cause offence. So yeah, just wanted to clear up that, as you certainly deserve a lot of respect for doing them results year-on-year! Cs-wolves(talk) 22:59, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Regarding File:Isle of Man TT.svg

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Isle of Man TT edits

Hi,

Please don't put spoilers in your edit summary. I'd been trying to avoid the results until I'd seen the race on TV but your edit popped up on my watchlist revealing Bruce Anstey to be the winner. You can easily say that you added the winner without revealing who the winner was. Many thanks. Readro (talk) 21:15, 5 June 2012 (UTC)