User talk:Jimbo Wales

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Gibraltarpedia, Wikimedia UK and concerns about paid editing and conflicts of interest within Wikimedia UK

Jimbo, do you have a view on the developing discussion here? JN466 23:50, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm not aware of the specific facts with enough certainty to be able to comment directly on this case. However, I can make a couple of observations based on general principles.

1. Panyd is, as usual, speaking good sense.

2. It is wildly inappropriate for a board member of a chapter, or anyone else in an official role of any kind in a charity associated with Wikipedia, to take payment from customers in exchange for securing favorable placement on the front page of Wikipedia or anywhere else. This is just one very narrow example of a much broader principle that it's wrong to work in any capacity whatsoever editing content as a paid advocate within Wikipedia. This applies to articles and the front page, but of course I leave open the very valid option of someone with a conflict of interest doing the ethical thing and identifying fully and proposing things to the community.

As I mentioned at the start, I don't know enough of the facts in this particular case to be able to comment specifically. However, if the facts turn out to be as stated, then the honorable thing for anyone with a conflict of interest driving them to act on behalf of a client in the manner I discussed above is resign from the board of Wikimedia UK, or resign from the job with the client. Anything else raises the appearance of impropriety at a minimum.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:52, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

There is now further discussion of this on the Wikimedia UK mailing list, in a thread started by Thomas Dalton under the title "Paid editing by Roger Bamkin": [1] JN466 14:26, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Jimbo, in all honesty, if you're "not aware of the specific facts" then why are you commenting at all? It's not advisable for anyone to make sweeping comments about a situation like this without looking into it in detail. Given your position as co-founder of Wikipedia and the weight that your words carry, I would think it especially inadvisable, to the point of irresponsibility, for you to intervene in such a way. Find out what the facts are, then comment, if you have to, or preferably sort things out behind the scenes with a minimum of controversy. This is not the first time you've made questionable interventions but publicly calling on people to resign while admittedly not knowing what the facts are is simply unacceptable. It's not the way that any responsible organisational leader should behave. Prioryman (talk) 17:17, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I just became aware of all this myself, but several facts are immediately apparent:

• Roger is acting as a paid consultant at the same time as he is on the Board of WMUK. That's their problem but I share Jimbo's feelings on the matter, he needs to resign one post or the other
• Looking at his contribs it does look like he may be slanting information in a fairly subtle way in some Gibraltar-related article
• He is violating the username policy, specifically WP:ORGNAME as he identifies as running a company called "Victuallers LTD". Couldn't find any web presence of said company, but he has spelled it right out on his userpage and in the WMUK declarations page that it is his company

Troubling to say the least. and WMUK really doesn't need any more scandal involving their higher-ups. The decent thing for Roger to do would be to step aside, to change his username, and to suggest edits rather than making them himself on any topic related to Gigraltar. Beeblebrox (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:49, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Three points: First, Gibraltarpedia isn't a WMUK project so why is Roger's status with WMUK relevant to it? Second, how and where is Roger "slanting information in a fairly subtle way"? If you're going to make this charge, you should provide some substantiation. Third, I don't believe WP:ORGNAME is really applicable in this instance. The registration for Victuallers Ltd shows that it was only registered on 9 March 2012; the Victuallers account was registered on 27 October 2006, five and a half years earlier. It seems that the company was named after the account, not the other way round - WP:ORGNAME was written with accounts named after companies in mind. Prioryman (talk) 17:57, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Board members have influence over how the chapter expends its resources. It is my understanding that WMUK is lending material support (although not financial support) to this project, which is in turn paying a member of its Board. In such situations it is best to avoid even the appearence of impropriety. I don't think ORGNAME ever foresaw that a user would name a company after his account and then get paid to edit Wikipedia with that same account, but the underlying principle applies. Something simple like "Roger (Victuallers LTD)" would do it. As to the slanting, I did say " may be" I haven't had time yet to look deeply, I only became aware of all this about an hour ago. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:07, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

The only material connection that I know of between WMUK and Gibraltarpedia is that WMUK has printed up a few dozen "how to edit" leaflets at a cost of less than £10 for distribution in Gibraltar. The notion that there's some kind of impropriety about providing a few leaflets at pocket money prices is ludicrous, to say the least. Prioryman (talk) 19:43, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

The order doesn't matter. The problem is the connection between the user name and the company. Even that is not a problem if the user avoids doing anything on Wikipedia relating to the company, but that exception doesn't apply here.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 22:07, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I think it does. I run a personal company with Gigs in the name, but I never for a second thought that I might be violating orgname, since it was never my intent to promote that company here (and my user name does predate my company name as well). I'm sure a lot of people here have small consulting companies that happen to coincide with their username. It's not what the policy was designed to prevent. Gigs (talk) 22:52, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

But are you being paid for your work on Wikipedia in association with that name? That seems to be the case here. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:24, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

QRpedia isn't "on Wikipedia". It's a program that generates QR codes that links to Wikipedia articles. See QRpedia. You don't even need to be a Wikipedian to develop such a product - it's entirely external to the wiki. Prioryman (talk) 00:56, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand this at all. You said over on the DYK talk page, "According to Roger, he's being paid for the use of QRpedia, which as I understand it is software that he developed." But QRpedia says it is free software (MIT License), so where does the payment come in ...? So I thought you meant the two sites, qrpedia.org and qrwp.org, whose ownership is currently being transferred from Roger to Wikimedia UK. But according to Rexx (Doug Taylor), no money is being made off the qrpedia sites either: "There is no mechanism in place for generating income from the domains qrpedia.org and qrwp.org. Commentators also need to differentiate between the site (which physically hosts the servers) and the domain names. WMUK's interest in QRpedia is in finding ways to ensure that the service provided remains secure and free in perpetuity." On the other hand, on his LinkedIn page, Roger says, "I've been involved with QRpedia and Monmouthpedia which have delivered > £2m paybeack on £50K investment." In principle it is nobody's business how much money Roger's project makes for him and his colleagues – but it becomes a matter of interest to this community if he makes this money as a Wikimedia UK director, an editor here editing articles for his clients, and a project manager here getting volunteer editors to work for his project for free. There just needs to be more transparency, clarity, something. --JN466 01:31, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Let's not conflate two unrelated issues. I understand why there are overall questions about getting paid, but those questions are not the main concern with the propriety of the username. If someone adopted the name "Mother Teresas Orphanages" then was associated with an organization of the same name, we would have concerns about the name if there are any edits relating to the organization, even if it is a purely charitable organization. The ORGNAME concern isn't paid editing per se, it is concerned with actual or perceived COI and the concern that this editor would be viewed differently than other editors of the article. I'm not suggesting people shouldn't pursue whether any payments are occurring, but that is a different issue than the name issue.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 12:32, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I think you'll find the "> £2m payback on £50K investment" refers to the benefit of extra tourists to Monmouth and Wales which is predicted to arise - effectively the equivalent value of publicity against the investment Monmouth CC made. The launch of Monmouthpedia generated over 100 news articles and more than 1,000 tweets worldwide. It's difficult to be precise about money equivalence in these cases, but I'd guess that's not far off the mark. It's pure nonsense to think that Roger is talking about receiving £2M himself, and it's quite disingenuous to make that sort of implication as Andreas does above. If Jimmy wants to become "aware of the specific facts with enough certainty to be able to comment directly on this case", then my email is enabled - or a quick call to the WMUK office will get him my phone number and I'd be glad to chat at any time and fill in any details he wants. --RexxS (talk) 21:51, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, that is helpful. Now, how much of the £17,500 that Roger and Robin were awarded for the Wikimedia UK Geovation project goes into their personal pockets? I am asking because this is part of Roger's Declaration of interest ("Roger is part of a successful Geovation bid with Andy Mabbett, Robin Owain and John Cummings. This means that he is likely to be talking to many councils in Wales."), and because he and Robin (rather than Wikimedia UK) are named as winners on the Geovation website. Yet, as shown below, the project plan involves Wikimedia UK being asked to run the project. Could you or Roger explain? And what about the remaining £100,000 they are hoping to raise? Who will receive this money, if it is raised? What do you say to people like Orangemike below, who seem concerned about mixed roles and the conflicts of interest between Roger's paid consultancy role and his role as a trustee? JN466 23:20, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

And do you think it is appropriate for Wikipedia to be offered to highest bidders as a marketing tool? Roger, Steve Virgin and others are basically telling interested towns and cities that for an investment of £50k in Roger's Wikipedia project, they can get £2m worth of free publicity. For reference, see [2], or see Steve Virgin's blog ("277 news stories across 36 countries and created immense value to the town of Monmouth and to the technological innovation-driven notion of hyper-localism using multi-lingual Wikipedia pages") or business website ("Monmouthpedia – managed press campaign for the launch of the World’s first ever Wikipedia Town in Wales..300 media stories across 40 countries..worth millions to Monmouth"). The Gibraltarpedia project is widely perceived and reported as a cost-effective project to market Gibraltar as a tourism destination ("Gibraltarpedia: A new Way to Market the Rock", "... the idea of marketing Gibraltar as a tourist product through Wikipedia which the Ministry for Tourism has embarked upon, leaves one without a doubt that the venture will truly be a success.")

Now, given that the project offers such good value for money, it is to be expected that people will continue to queue up at Roger's door to be picked as the next Wikipedia town, as they have been; and in the process, Roger makes the selection, and is paid. How is that compatible with the Nolan principles quoted on Wikimedia UK's site? In particular, Selflessness: Trustees of Wikimedia UK have a general duty to act in the best interests of Wikimedia UK as a whole. They should not gain financial or other material benefits for themselves, their family, their friends or the organisation they come from or represent.? Or Integrity: They should avoid actual impropriety and avoid any appearance of improper behaviour. They should not place themselves under any financial or other obligation to individuals or organisations that might seek to influence them in the performance of their role as Trustees of Wikimedia UK.? These are just the first two. How can Roger act personally as a paid consultant for projects involving Wikimedia UK, advertising WMUK involvement to his private clients, and be a director of Wikimedia UK at the same time, and comply with the Nolan principles? JN466 23:44, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I think you'll find that the £17,500 that Roger and Robin have raised so far for the Geovation project will be part of £50,000 which will in turn attract matched funding to make the £100,000 project budget for Geovation. You seem to have mistaken income generation for expenditure, as the project has not begun to incur expenditure yet. I am unaware of any WMUK commitment to running the project. The investment made by Monmouth Council consisted of engaging an ISP to provide wifi access across the whole town, staff time to work on the project, and provision of facilities within the town. Roger has taken no part in any of the decisions made by the WMUK Board concerning either Monmouth or Gibraltar, so it is difficult to see how he could be accused of placing himself under any financial or other obligation to individuals or organisations that might seek to influence them in the performance of their role as Trustees of Wikimedia UK. I believe that all of the WMUK Board who have been involved in such decisions have no financial interest those projects. I remain convinced that Monmouthpedia was a very successful and worthwhile project, benefiting both Monmouth and Wikipedia. I hope that Gibraltarpedia is equally successful. It deserves support, even though WMUK is not providing finance for the project. --RexxS (talk) 02:21, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, Doug. Could you clarify: in whose bank account are the £17,500 raised so far? Where will the other £32,500 come from, and in whose account will they end up? And likewise, where will the matching £50,000 come from, and where will they end up? And are you saying there has been income generation without expenditure? As for your being unaware of there being any WMUK commitment, surely you are aware that the description of Roger's and Robin's proposal at https://challenge.geovation.org.uk/a/dtd/119163-16422 includes the passage Wikimedia UK would be asked to run the scheme, employing Wikipedians, just as the National Library does in London... and the National Museum etc. Their help would be crucial. If there is no such commitment from WMUK, is it appropriate for Roger to imply that there is, in order to be awarded funding? Either way, there is a problem. As for the next point, can you not imagine that Roger's business partners in Gibraltar might seek to influence [Roger] in the performance of [his] role as Trustees of Wikimedia UK? And is he not under any financial or other obligation to individuals or organisations in Gibraltar? He is a paid contractor: that means he has obligations, and his contacts in Gibraltar might very well seek to influence him, or ask him for help, if some difficulty should arise. You really need to face the facts here, Doug.

You have not addressed other points I asked about at all, such as the fact that Roger has people queuing up to be selected for another local Wikipedia project, and that he is taking a consultancy payment from whatever candidate he selects. If he and his company, Victuallers Ltd., profit, then how does that fit with the selflessness principle? Look at it from the perspective of an outsider, like Violet Blue. She may well imagine that Roger is swayed by the size of the consultancy fee he is offered, because that is a common way for people everywhere to behave. Even if that is not a consideration for Roger at all, this is the appearance that is created, and which according to the Nolan principles he has a duty to avoid. On top of that, the pitch is clearly that the tourist industry and local businesses in places like Monmouth and Gibraltar will profit from their Wikipedia exposure, and the resulting publicity. There is a considerable monetary value attached to this publicity (said to be worth £2m), and the PR materials of Roger and his colleagues stress this monetary value. And it is up to Roger to decide who shall be the next beneficiary of this £2m worth of free exposure, and it is Roger who will receive a private payment from the successful candidate, in part because of the standing he enjoys in the customer's eyes as a WMUK director. Uncharitable observers may construe the entire transaction as a bribe: you have to pay x amount (undisclosed to date) in Mr Bamkin's private account to get £2m worth of free publicity for your town, with the blessing of WMUK. WMUK trustees are required to avoid even the appearance of an impropriety, and several people have told you that this looks absolutely terrible. JN466 04:11, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I can only comment on facts, Andreas, as I have no brief to speculate. The Board are hopefully discussing the Geovation bid tonight as stated on the WMUK wiki, so we may be able to update the present position then. I understand that the bid will seek matched funding from one of the Welsh agencies and will include the employment (via an open advertisement) of a manager to run the project, so I think that it is a mistaken reading of the bid to conclude that WMUK will be running it. One fact that I am certain of is that Roger is an honourable man, and I would expect him to be perfectly capable of giving paid advice to Gibraltar without taking on any of the editing obligations that you seem to imagine. I find the Gibraltarpedia project to be an exciting opportunity for collaboration with Wikimedians in Spain and Morrocco as well as Gibraltar, and I've been happy to receive reports from Roger on its progress. It is a pity that you should think so little of me and the other uninvolved Trustees that you should imply that Roger would be able to influence our decision-making about the project. Our in-person Board meetings are open to the membership to attend: perhaps you should avail yourself of that transparency to see for yourself the propriety of our decision-making processes. --RexxS (talk) 11:42, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Regardless of what he will or will not be doing, the fact remains that he appears to be exploiting his position with Wikimedia (UK) for personal gain. Grover cleveland (talk) 12:53, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

This article on Gibraltarpedia has just gone up on the BBC website describing Bamkin as a representative of Wikimedia. How would the BBC know of Bamkins connection with WMUK unless he has cross the line that blurs his own commercial work and his responsibilities as a trustee and former chair of Wikimedia UK?--Peter cohen (talk) 01:02, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

It seems, from the Gibraltar Chronicle that the Gibraltar Museum "...made the first contact with Wikimedia UK to start the ball rolling". In that article, Roger Bamkin is identified as Wikimedia UK director. TheOverflow (talk) 03:16, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Untrikiwiki

And what about this graphic by untrikiwiki, entitled "Wikipedia Editing as a PR Service", apparently produced by Maximilian Klein, a Wikipedian in residence with excellent community connections?

Quote: "A positive Wikipedia article is invaluable SEO: it's almost guaranteed to be a top three Google hit. Surprisingly this benefit of writing for Wikipedia is underutilized, but relates exactly the lack of true expertise in the field. ... WE HAVE THE EXPERTISE NEEDED to navigate the complex maze surrounding 'conflict of interest' editing on Wikipedia. With more than eight years of experience, over 10,000 edits, and countless community connections we offer holistic Wikipedia services. untrikiwiki

I mean, the good chap is even quoting you in his graphic! How is that different from what Gregory Kohs and MyWikiBiz wanted to do openly five or six years ago (and has been doing surreptitiously ever since)? JN466 00:53, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I was unaware of this case, and haven't had time to look into it. If what you say is accurate, then of course I'm extremely unhappy about it. It's disgusting.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:54, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Both of your responses are admirably clear, and sum up my feelings pretty exactly. Thank you very much. --JN466 01:01, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

untrikiwiki seems in part directed at PR agencies. The graphic includes the following e.g.: "Being able to offer Wikipedia-based services will differentiate your offerings from your competitors and will allow you to present an unusually strong and valuable proposition to your clients. [...] Our experience and connections will allow you to offer Wikipedia services but without the need to spend years developing expertise in-house." I've dropped User:Maximilianklein a link to this discussion. --JN466 23:31, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Seems to have been taken down now. See [[3]] Thegreatgrabber (talk) 03:06, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, thanks. They've posted a statement:

UntrikiWiki has recently received some public attention from Wikipedians who disagree strongly with our belief that COI consultants can serve in a mutually beneficial liaison that is good for both Wikipedia and organizations that contract us. We’d like to explain in more detail what it is that Untriki has been doing, and what our future plans are to try to ameliorate some of the confusion around us.

We’ve never made a single edit for which we had a conflict of interest on Wikipedia – ever. Although we have advertised such a service, we’ve not aggressively pursued it – and we have not accepted any clients interested in on-Wikipedia work. [...] We believe – strongly – that there’s nothing inherently wrong with accepting for-profit engagements that involve contributing to Wikipedia, as long as it’s approached in a transparent and ethical fashion. We understand why it’s a controversial issue, but we believe that it’s a necessary and emerging field and believe that it’s important that people with knowledge of Wikipedia’s ecosystem move in to it and establish standards that protect Wikipedia’s integrity.

Starting now, and lasting indefinitely, we will not accept any paid conflict of interest Wikipedia editing work. To support this statement, we have removed mentions of the services from our website. This isn’t because we think it’s wrong, but because we think it would serve as an unfortunate distraction to our current work and because we recognize that if we ever pursued paid editing as a service, we need to first publicly develop and declare a process that will be acceptable to Wikipedia’s community. We think our currently intended process would have been ethical and more than meets the ethical standards of an overwhelming majority of Wikipedia’s community, but we made the error of not publicly talking about our process before posting a graphic about it in public. [...]

The advertisements for PR Editing on Wikipedia have now indeed been removed from the site. --JN466 14:03, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Pathetic

Wow, just ... wow, it appears like Roger Bamkina, trustee of the Wikimedia Foundation UK, is a paid PR consultant, using Wikipedia's main page and the resources of GLAM to pimp his client's project. Go look where http://gibraltarpedia.org/ redirects to. Kohs got banned for less. --KlickitatGlacier (talk) 18:55, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

P.S. was everyone here aware that someone was being paid for their work? --KlickitatGlacier (talk) 19:01, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Obvious sockpuppet is obvious. Someone deal with it, please? Prioryman (talk) 19:04, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Hahaha, it seems honesty and openness is the quickest way to get banned around here. Also, Prioryman, get a life. --KlickitatGlacier (talk) 19:07, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

That Wikipediocracy thread appears to be two days old, not six months. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:08, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

sorry, you're right. --KlickitatGlacier (talk) 19:12, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I think the Foundation has a duty to notify all the contributors that someone was being paid for their work, and to investigate whether they were misled about that fact. --KlickitatGlacier (talk) 19:15, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

While it is possible that what Roger is doing may be legal in the most narrow of senses, it is totally unethical: it is clear that he should step down NOW from any position of trust or responsibility in any Wikimedia operation, AND should cease to edit any article where he is operating as a paid agent of the subject, be it Gibraltar or Bashar al-Assad or Microsoft or the National Front. Contributors to any project where he has a fiduciary conflict of interest, including Wikimedia UK, should also be offered a refund of their monies. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:32, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Chris Keating, the chair of Wikimedia UK, has just posted a statement on the Wikimedia UK mailing list: [4] JN466 19:45, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

It's quite a helpful statement, which confirms that this whole controversy is just a storm in a teacup, based on nothing more than misunderstandings and misrepresentations. People, would it be so hard to try to find out the facts before rushing to judgement? Prioryman (talk) 19:57, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

He is profiting as a direct result of his involvement with the charity. That is a conflict of interest. There is also serious potential for this to damage the reputation of the charity. What if he was blocked or banned? Then you would be in the situation of a WMUK being blocked from editing Wikipedia, the project it is meant to support? How could a trustee possibly be in that position? Hestiaea (talk) 20:32, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Gibraltarpedia isn't a WMUK project. He is profiting, apparently, because of his involvement in developing QRpedia - which also isn't a WMUK project. Nobody is paying him to write articles. How is his involvement with WMUK relevant if WMUK is not a party in the Gibraltarpedia project? Prioryman (talk) 20:38, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Are you privy to the contract between Bamkin and the tourist ministry? Hestiaea (talk) 21:06, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

WMUK has established that blocking or banning doesn't affect one's position as a trustee. TheOverflow (talk) 00:26, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

The statement changes little for me about the basic fact: that a director of Wikimedia UK is advertising himself, as a Wikimedia UK director, for paid consultancy jobs, and directs and engages in editing on Wikipedia in the service of his personal client. At the very least, his position as a paid consultant is incompatible with his directorship, not least because his position as a Wikimedia director could be seen as giving him an unfair advantage on the PR consultancy market. Editing for a paying client might be similarly incompatible, especially as the customer has apparently been reassured that there won't be any "nasty" content about Gibraltar ('As Wikipedia is written by volunteers, concern was expressed that those who did not have Gibraltar’s best interest at heart may write untrue or negative articles, Professor Finlayson said; "The people from Wikipedia UK have guaranteed to us that this has an element of self-regulation and we want to encourage many local volunteers to keep an eye on what is going on, and if things go on that is nasty, then it is very easy for them to go back to the earlier page in seconds."') I had occasion to mediate a bitter content dispute related to Gibraltar once, and I am aware that the subject area is quite as fraught with POV issues as Northern Ireland, or Palestine, with Spain and Britain taking very different positions. However, my primary concern, before we come to anything else, is that no one should be able to use his directorship to market himself. And let's be realistic: anyone else doing such a project on behalf of a client, using a company account, would be blocked in no time at all. Think of Gregory Kohs wanting to write articles about a hotel chain, or tourist attractions in Abu Dhabi, and organising an on-wiki competition, complete with a first prize of an all-expenses-paid VIP trip to a five-star hotel in Abu Dhabi, advertised on a Wikipedia page. I thought Monmouthpedia was well-intentioned and educational, and I praised the project at the time, but the wider implications really need thinking over. Most of all, whatever is okay for Roger must be okay for everyone else too. If it isn't okay for everyone else, it's not okay for Roger either. Cheers. --JN466 20:59, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Jayden. This 'statement' definitely belongs in the 'Pathetic' section here. It fails to say who was paid for what, whether or not a team of Wikipedia volunteers were being directed by someone making money off their work, and if they were aware of it. --KlickitatGlacier (talk) 20:02, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

• Can someone explain to outsiders what the distinction is between this arrangement and, say, paying an intern at the British Museum to post pictures of stuff in the British Museum? Apparently Bamkin is being paid by the people of Gibraltar, which remains part of the UK which WMUK strives to cover. Is taking payment for a neutral mission to put all the notable stuff in Gibraltar on Wikipedia really a bad thing? Wnt (talk) 21:09, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Gibraltar isn't part of the UK. It's a British overseas territory. Not that that should stop WMUK from doing stuff there if they want to. 92.39.201.50 (talk) 21:46, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm having a lot of trouble to edit on page "Disputed status of Gibraltar" and now I begin to understand why.Juanmatorres75 22:51, 17 September 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Juanmatorres75 (talk • contribs)

Illegal?

If Bamkin's paid editing was exploiting his involvement in the charity as a means to profit personally, that may well be illegal. Particularly as his activity may harm the charity, by damaging its reputation. Hestiaea (talk) 20:30, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Geovation

According to http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Declarations_of_Interest#Roger_Bamkin "Roger is part of a successful Geovation bid with Andy Mabbett, Robin Owain and John Cummings. This means that he is likely to be talking to many councils in Wales." There is a reference to it on this page:

• http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports_26Jul12

Under the heading RB, this says, "Geovation bid for 17.5 K for Coast Path Wales - more to come. Need to find 100K ext funding to get 100K more". What is this Geovation bid? What involvement, if any, does Wikimedia UK have in the project? What is this 100K funding? Does this too involve paid consultancy work? JN466 19:44, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Why don't you ask Roger? Seriously. If you're interested in actually getting answers rather than just provoking drama, why aren't you asking him directly? Prioryman (talk) 20:03, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I asked this question on the Wikimedia UK mailing list, and I have not received an answer to date. I would like to ask this question in public, and I would like to be given an answer in public. Roger is well aware of discussions on this page. --JN466 21:08, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

So because you've not yet received an answer, you've escalated it to Jimbo's talk page. In what way is this not drama whoring? Prioryman (talk) 21:43, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

In what way is calling another user a whore, or (as you did below) invoking the term "witch hunt" intended to help? Such terminology invariably makes things worse. Let's all calm down please. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:47, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

It's better than that - he came here first - David Gerard (talk) 11:14, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I first asked about it here, around lunch time, well before the statement Chris Keating posted in the evening to address the various questions raised in the mailing list thread. JN466 12:19, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I've located some more information about Geovation now by myself, as no reply has been forthcoming, including that £17,500 funding (with another £100,000, apparently, still sought):

https://challenge.geovation.org.uk/a/dtd/119163-16422

Wales Coast Path only: What theme of the challenge does your idea address?: 3. Community engagement What problem are you trying to solve? : Green tourism: what's around me? What makes it different?

How will your idea work? : There are two parts, fist we meet local groups and show them how to add information onto a Wikipedia page: and that's really simple! Secondly we show them how their articles can be geotagged. The best part is enjoying a walk down the path with a smart phone, with any AR tagged articles shown through the camera, informing the User (tourist or local) about what's around them: history of that unusual building or where's the nearest Young Farmers Club? What's the name of that mountain, and where's the nearest toilet! Take a look at MonmouthpediA on Wikipedia and multiply it by 10!

How will it provide a solution to the Challenge? : It's the best answer possible! The local WI (or Merched y Wawr) will bring along old photographs, which would be scanned in and uploaded, and their locations geotagged. They would learn new skills on how to edit existing articles and how to create new ones. The local chapel could write about the history of their chapel, and so could the local cafe - including the opening times! Schools could show off their latest Brochure for Parents and even nature clubs could write about the local habitats. This is about: bringing people together in order to inform walkers, cyclists and joggers what's around them.

What is the stage of development? What help and investment you need to build it?: Because Wikipedia is so simple, it's ideal for this project. Communities know about the geography and history, and culture of their area MUCH better than an app writer or web-author sitting in his office in Manchester! Wikimedia UK would be asked to run the scheme, employing Wikipedians, just as the National Library does in London... and the National Museum etc. Their help would be crucial. Welsh Wicipedians have also shown their enthusiasm and would filter out any unwanted vandalism. Wikipedia has a proven track record: why re-create the wheel all the time? It's an app which is already installed on most iPads and iPhones! Pure and simple.

Neighbourhood Challenge only: How would you use Ordnance Survey data in your solution? : See below.

Wales Coast Path only: How will you use geographic information in your solution? : Yes! Geotagging on Wikipedia is so easy! One line and the whole article pops up! Through Layar (invisible to the User), we would view through the camera's phone what's around us, and automatically a number of Wikipedian "W"s pop up wherever the article's location is. For example, an User takes a look at a cluster of mountains, and immediately the "W" shows that there is an article written, so the user chooses a mountain with his or her finger and they're straight into the article! And not just Cymraeg and English: there are over 250 languages on Wikipedia. All articles would be geographically and traditionally (OS) tagged.

http://www.geovation.org.uk/teams-win-innovation-funding-wales-coast-path-challenge/

Living Paths – Roger Bamkin and Robin Owain of Monmouthpedia were the pair behind this idea which will allow communities along the path to create a Wikipedia page and post stories about their communities allowing diverse local information to become accessible. Awarded: £17,500.

As I see it, this is a programme whereby Wikimedia UK pays Wikipedians to get members of the public to edit for free. You can see it as an editor recruitment programme, and as a programme to secure unemployed Wikipedian friends paid employment. There has been practically no discussion of this on-wiki to date. --JN466 13:48, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Just to be clear, Roger and Robin had £17,500 awarded to them as individuals – Roger included this item in his Declarations of interest: "Roger is part of a successful Geovation bid with Andy Mabbett, Robin Owain and John Cummings. This means that he is likely to be talking to many councils in Wales." – for a bid that promised that "Wikimedia UK would be asked to run the scheme, employing Wikipedians" (and that local cafés would be able to post their opening hours in Wikipedia, if I understand it correctly). This looks like he is deriving personal profit from committing Wikimedia UK services and resources. Jimbo, what do you make of it? --JN466 14:51, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

gibraltarpedia.org

This may be a more complex question than it first appears, but if Gibraltarpedia is for-profit project of Victuallers Ltd and the government of Gibraltar, why is the project's home page here on Wikipedia? Gibraltarpedia.org redirects to Wikipedia:GLAM/GibraltarpediA‎. Surely that gives the impression to a reader that this is a project sponsored and endorsed by Wikimedia? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:37, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

At the absolute minimum it's a direct contravention of WP:NOTWEBHOST. Pedro :  Chat  20:40, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Don't be silly. It's a Wikipedia project like any other. The domain name serves an obvious and trivial purpose: http://www.gibraltarpedia.org is a damn sight more memorable and easier to communicate than http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:GLAM/GibraltarpediA . There's absolutely nothing to stop, for instance, Jimbo registering http://www.jimbowales.com and redirecting it to his profile. If an editor wants to register a domain name and point it to a particular page there's nothing to stop him from doing so, and no reason why he shouldn't. WP:NOTWEBHOST doesn't come into it because it's a mainstream, bona fide Wikiproject, with the involvement of many editors, not a personal website or web page. Prioryman (talk) 21:26, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't think silliness became a factor here until 21:26, 17 September 2012 (UTC). Prioryman, I think you are on the wrong side of consensus here; as well as policy. 76Strat ^String da _Broke da (talk) 21:38, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Citing WP:NOTWEBHOST against a mainstream, well-supported WikiProject is silly. Frankly, I get the feeling that this has degenerated into a witch-hunt. Prioryman (talk) 21:42, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't get it either frankly. If the WMF has no hand in this project, there are paid consultants working on it, and the government of Gibraltar is bankrolling it does kind of seem out of place to host the whole thing here. Like I've said elsewhere, it is a really cool project and I do support it, but if it's being run by non-WMF entities and paid consultants surely they can host it. Seems odd to just have it crammed in a GLAM subpage, Beeblebrox (talk) 21:53, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Let's get something straight: it's not being run or "bankrolled" by the government of Gibraltar. Nor are "paid consultants working on it". It's purely a volunteer project, run by Wikipedians as part of a normal process of outreach. The idea for it came from a local Wikipedian and it's being supported by the local museum. It's no different in that respect to any other GLAM project. The WMF hasn't had any involvement than I'm aware of in the existing GLAM projects relating to the UK. The Gibraltar government's ministry of tourism has said that it supports the project and it's offering some fairly modest prizes for contributions (see [5]). Again this is no different from what, say, the British Museum has done. I'm not aware of the government having had any involvement with the content. The only "consultancy" that seems to have been involved relates to QRpedia, which is a software product, not content. It's not even essential for the project, which would continue quite happily if nobody was using QRpedia. As far as I can see this is really no different to Monmouthpedia, which has been a big success, so why the witch-hunt? Prioryman (talk) 22:08, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Roger is being paid to work on it as a consultant. His consultancy is far broader than QRpedia, which really doesn't need any consulting (it's just a website that you link to and then it forwards you onto the appropriate Wikipedia article in the appropriate language - anyone can use it very easily). --Tango (talk) 11:23, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

"witch-hunt" !!! Really, Prioryman? Speaking as a dedicated Wikipedian myself, I'd like to know if the people pulling strings and directing various projects here are making money off my efforts, and at their direction. Don't you think that is fair? We still need to hear from all the parties about who exactly is getting paid for what, and if the volunteers were aware of it. --KlickitatGlacier (talk) 21:59, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

A "dedicated Wikipedian" who's supposedly been an editor only since 15 August 2012? Sure. Perhaps you could disclose your previous account so that we can identify which banned editor you are. Prioryman (talk) 22:08, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Oh dear God, now your behavior is starting to make sense. --KlickitatGlacier (talk) 22:19, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

By the way, this needs to be reported to the UK's charity commission, as this could affect WMUK's charitable status. Cla68 (talk) 01:29, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Report on CNET

• Violet Blue, "Corruption in Wikiland? Paid PR scandal erupts at Wikipedia", CNET

--JN466 00:50, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

• That article is a good summary of the situation. WMUK and WMF, anything you can do to correct this problem? Cla68 (talk) 01:07, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

• Are you asking corrupt organizations to correct corruption in their organizations? Sweet. --66.85.128.186 (talk) 01:59, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

• It's merely a blog hosted by CNET written by someone who isn't a CNET employee and who has personal grievances against Wikipedia, and the content is just a regurgitation of nonsense being spewed by the Wikipediocracy bullshit machine. Prioryman (talk) 07:35, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

• Prioryman, I'm not trying to discredit your opinion with an ad hominem approach, but could you please explain the circumstances surrounding your trip to Gibraltar next month? If it's a personal trip, sorry for my presumption. If it is related to the WMUK's involvement in this issue, however, could you please explain how it fits in? Cla68 (talk) 07:46, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

• It's none of your business and it has nothing to do with WMUK. Prioryman (talk) 08:07, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I have seen more attractive photos and video of Gilbraltar all over the internets/twitters/facebooks in the past six hours than I had previously in my middle-aged life. Whatever the PR guy was charging for this, the Gilbraltar tourism folks got the bargain of the century. 199.16.130.122 (talk) 01:55, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I still don't get the problem. If every tenth town hires some Wikipedia-person to go around and document the local tourist attractions, why does that have to be a bad thing? Provided that we could uphold something along the lines of my once-suggested WP:Paid editor's bill of rights, at least. Wnt (talk) 04:25, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

If that was all that was taking place, there probably wouldn't be a problem. Cla68 (talk) 04:46, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

They're not hiring a "Wikipedia-person"; they're hiring a "Wikimedia (UK) person". Big difference. Grover cleveland (talk) 06:17, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Can I agree with Panyd and Jimmy that paid for editting that involved a wikpedian being paid to create articles and/or a positive spun position for a client is wrong. The members of WMUK may have made a mistake when they voted for me despite knowing that I was acting as a consultant. However they did make that judgement. I have continued to offer my resignation from the board over COI as it is a tricky situation (and even one where it seems that the choice of a name for my company becomes important - can I thank the more reasoned voices).

When I stood for the board last time I clearly made the point that I would have COI issues but I wouldn't have undeclared COI issues. The difference is important and you will see that my interests are well documented and they overseen by the WMUK board, our Chief Executive and our legal advisors. Gibraltarpedia is not a WMUK project - its enable by an agreement with the Wikimedia Foundation. The Government of Gibraltar and the Wikimedia Foundation signed a bilateral agreement during Wikimania. At Wikimania, the Gibraltar Minister for Tourism announced that he was "inviting the whole of the Wikipedia movement to build a bridge to Africa". The video featured me talking about the the world's first Wikipedia city and local people from Gibraltar welcoming you (the community) to help them create articles in lots of languages. I'm helping to make that happen. I'm working with people who are trying to make that happen too. Victuallers (talk) 13:19, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Roger, the most problematic element here to my mind is that you and your company apply for paid service contracts involving Wikipedia, at least partly on the strength of your being a director of WMUK. In the Geovation case, for example, your bid stated that "Wikimedia UK would be asked to run the scheme, employing Wikipedians, just as the National Library does in London... and the National Museum etc. Their help would be crucial." Yet the funds that were on offer were awarded to you and your colleague, on the strength of your bid, and not to Wikimedia UK, or any other volunteer editors due to become involved in writing these articles. It is not unreasonable to assume that your WMUK directorship gives you a competitive advantage in applying for jobs like the Geovation project, or consultancy jobs like the one for Gibraltarpedia. This being so, I cannot see that these circumstances are in line with the letter and spirit of the Nolan requirements, notably requirements 1 and 2. I believe you ought to resign, and do your for-profit work as an independent consultant. JN466 13:50, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Victuallers: I lost every bit of confidence and respect for WMUK after the Fae-affair; if you can have a banned editor on WMUK, then apparently everything goes. Including having a leader who does openly, and in a big scale, what Gregory Kohs has been doing in a smaller scale for years. Huldra (talk) 14:14, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Removal of Roger Bamkin?

Given the serious conflicts of interests, breach of trust, and abuse of position for personal gain, if Roger Bamkin doesn't voluntarily resign then it seems time for proceedings to begin to forcibly remove Mr. Bamkin from broad of trustees for being in violation of section 72 of the Charities Act 1993. In that regard, I believe it would be useful to begin compiling the specific allegations and evidence in a single space to bring coherence and civility to a quickly unfolding event. StevenPine (talk) 09:43, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

You may want to get his name right if you are going to file court proceedings... I haven't seen anything that I think goes so far as to violate the Charities Act. Roger's position of the board is, ultimately, a matter for the Wikimedia UK membership - I doubt the courts are going to be interested. --Tango (talk) 11:20, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I've been asked to block Bamkin entirely

I was asked to put a spamuserblock on Bamkin's Victuallers account, since that is the name of his for-profit company; I declined, stating "[s]uch a heavy-handed action would be grossly inappropriate", since apparently his for-profit venture is named after his Wikipedia account, not the other way around. Nonetheless, this whole mess is not going to go away until and unless he steps down from all positions of trust and responsibility within Wikimedia and all related entities. --Orange Mike | Talk 12:48, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree completely with your refusal rationale and your latter comment. It would be a gross misuse of the username policy. Gigs (talk) 13:35, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Now I'm being accused (on my talk page) of insufficiently aggressive enforcement of the spamusername policy. --Orange Mike | Talk 13:47, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Not insufficient, merely selective. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 13:49, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

It's a bit silly to go, "I think OrangeMike enforces our spamusername policy poorly. I know what will fix him: trying to talk him into placing a 'spam' block that would be extremely controversial and almost certainly be overturned amongst much drama based on IAR!" Yes, you can squint at the spamusername police and see how a block on Victuallers could be argued for, but if you can't also see that this is not nearly as clear-cut a case as most and that a unilateral block by one admin is likely to inflame, not reduce the drama, then you don't have much business ordering other admins to go place the block. No admin is obligated to place a block on your orders, even if you think that makes them "inconsistent"; if you want Victuallers blocked, well, you have admin bits too, and you can do it without trying to piggyback the issue of OrangeMike's blocking habits onto this case. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 16:54, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Asking for Victuallers to change usernames seems unnecessarily punitive and is a distraction from having a full and frank discussion of the issues. Given the nature and scale of Bamkin's consulting business, the username is not likely to be recognized as a business name. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:32, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

For the record I considered the same action before my first posting here and decided not to. To just go ahead and block is, as Mike says, punitive. However as I've already mentioned I don't believe when WP:ORGNAME was written that the possibility that someone would name a company after their WP account and then turn around and get paid for their Wikipedia activities ever occurred to anyone. I do believe it violates the spirit of the policy and that Roger should change it a sa gesture of good faith, but that is up to him for the moment. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:39, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Roger has stated [6] that the company only exists as a tax item and has no advertising or promotion (or employees, evidently). WP:ORGNAME was written to prevent editors promoting a company for which they work ("the following types of usernames are not permitted because they are considered promotional", bolding as in original). If there is no promotion involved, I can't see how WP:ORGNAME can be invoked, since the company only exists on paper. Prioryman (talk) 20:05, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I can see both sides of this question, for which I was ridiculed at Wikipediocracy. I think naming a private consultancy after a WP name is bad form, at a minimum, and violates the spirit of the prohibition against user names that promote commercial interests, most would agree. Is it unambiguously commercial? No. Do I think Orange Mike was being inconsistent by not blocking on request? Perhaps a bit, but I don't agree with many of his blocks on commercial entities and I feel there is enough ambiguity here that the name could well slide. Should Mr. Bamkin select a new user name now that he has established Victuallers Inc.? Yes, he should, in my opinion. Should he separate himself from WMUK? Yes, definitely, immediately. Participate there as an independent observer, not as a functionary. Carrite (talk) 20:34, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Please note Roger has filed at WP:RFCN to ask for community input on his name, so any further discussion of it should probably go there. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:14, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Report in Le Monde

Deux membres de Wikipédia accusés de corruption ("Two members of Wikipedia [sic] accused of corruption"). Grover cleveland (talk) 12:56, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I have to give them credit, whoever they are - they've certainly oiled up the media pipeline, and finding these two unrelated cases to publish together and make each look worse than it is was a stroke of genius. I don't know where they did all this planning either - I assume they must have some new forum, apparently one more secure than ArbCom's lists. I don't know what's going on at all, but I wonder ... instead of sitting around, waiting to be publicly humiliated one by one until whoever these people are take it over, would it make more sense for the WMUK trustees to take the initiative, disband their organization entirely and donate its assets to other charities? Wnt (talk) 15:02, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

So, Wnt, you think WMUK should take the money that people donated to Wikipedia (and the WMF transferred to WMUK) and give it away to another charity? Do you think that this might be in violation of certain legal agreements, not to mention the expectations of the donors? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:25, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps other WMF chapters or related charities, but I'd rather see them pile the money up and burn it than be taken over by someone who spends it on some censorship crusade. Wnt (talk) 16:13, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

There's more press coverage of the scandal today:

• "Wikipedia contributors decry pay for posts" (Computerworld) [7]
• "Corruption in Wikiland? Paid PR scandal erupts at Wikipedia" (CNET) [8]
• "Governments paying for Wikipedia edits?" (Foreign Policy (blog)) [9]
• "Wikipedia Brand Trust Erodes With PRikpedia, Gibraltarpedia Scandals" (BrandChannel) [10]

--John Nagle (talk) 19:58, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Drop the ad hominem crap and the paranoia

Could we drop the ad hominem crap and the paranoia, and simply address the horrific public relations and ethics problems we have here? I don't care if this is being pushed off-wiki by Kohs, or any and all of the rest of the haters (who hate me too): it's a genuine concern for many of us who spend time and energy we don't have to spare, and don't like to see somebody leeching off Wikimedia funds as a consultant, or abusing their powers as an admin, officer, etc. to get free trips, lucrative contracts, etc. --Orange Mike | Talk 15:36, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

How do you address a public relations problem without asking what the motivation of those making accusations might be? The ethics of each individual deal of course should be considered carefully, and appropriate policies should be enacted, but I don't think this became news all by itself. Wnt (talk) 16:10, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

What could it possibly matter, Wnt? I think you will find that it became news when those who have a responsibility to act in specific ways and not act in others, ignored their legal obligations and went straight for the personal gain. Yours is the kind of thinking that says punish those who tell, not those who did the improper deeds. If what the whistleblowers say is true, it does not matter at all what their motivations are. To say otherwise is to think like a politician. I am appalled that you see this as a "public relations" problem and not an ethical and possibly legal one. Bielle (talk) 16:21, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

It's a shande far di goyim, Wnt; I don't give a darn what the motivations of the whistleblowers are, we need to keep our house clean as an ethical imperative; the public relations aspects are secondary. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:40, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Mike, I think you're doing an excellent job of distinguishing what should and should not be done here. While we have debated certain blocks in the past, I think in this case, you have made an impeccable call, and I think the very best thing at this point would be for the community as a whole to applaud your discretion and use your rationale as a guide for the future. I know you personally give a lot of time and energy to this specific issue in your role as an Admin, and you've shown a strong willingness to let the wisdom of the community guide you, but I think in this case, the community should allow your wisdom to guide it. -- Avanu (talk) 20:13, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Mike, while I totally agree with your comments about the crap and paranoia pushed by the usual suspects, I don't think you're on target with your comments about "somebody leeching off Wikimedia funds" or "abusing their powers". As far as I can see there's absolutely no hard evidence of either having happened, just a lot of uncorroborated accusations, often by individuals with a track record of participation in off-wiki attack sites. Prioryman (talk) 21:27, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Oh FFS Wnt: the Wikipediocracy crowd (the thread in question is here, for the talk page stalkers) is not a monolith intent on destroying Wikipedia, but we are pretty good at investigating bad behavior by cabals (practice makes perfect). The NPOV assessment of this debacle is pretty clear: some people are abusing their positions, some other people probably should have spoken up about it but didn't until it was too late, and still other people (like you, Wnt) are so embarrassed by being caught supporting the wrong people that they're trying to blame the watchdogs.

Having active and intelligent watchdogs around is a good thing for entities like the WMF. Don't kick the watchdog when it's just doing it's job. --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 20:59, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Compared to what every American local government gets away with, Bamkin's "crime" doesn't sound like much - he sold Gibraltar some fancy lucite plaques and advice for a few thousand bucks, possibly benefiting from his position on WMUK to close the deal. Did I miss anything? True, it would be worth hearing whether he had permission to use the Wikipedia trademark^[11] and if so whether that is given as readily to potential competitors. So I'm not sure this is right but I don't know why it has to end up in Le Monde. Can't you just make some clear, unambiguous policies and make amends for any past transgression without fire-breathing rhetoric, bans, resignations, etc.? I also agree that the talk about removing negative content from Gibraltar and about SEO benefits from the other guy is all very disturbing, but so far I've heard no link from this to anything Bamkin did. Wnt (talk) 22:40, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

"Compared to what every American local government gets away with, Bamkin's "crime" doesn't sound like much - he sold Gibraltar some fancy lucite plaques and advice for a few thousand bucks, possibly benefiting from his position on WMUK to close the deal." — Nope, other than the fact that there's little doubt that he cashed in from the association, you've got it, and that's why Mr. Bamkin must sever his connections with WMUK immediately. "Every American local government" is not Wikipedia. That's what we call an OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument at AfD and it shouldn't and doesn't cut mustard. My friend Orange Mike correctly notes on this page that we need to keep our house cleaner than clean, and the fact that the "opposition press" includes mortal enemies of The Project should not for one second deter us from a quick housecleaning. Now. Carrite (talk) 23:41, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

If Wikimedia's/Wikipedia's leadership had its house in order, there wouldn't be anything substantial for Wikipedia's critics to complain about, would there? Cla68 (talk) 00:00, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, Orange Mike, I will try to calm down. Sorting out what was/was-not appropriate behavior at each point in time and layer (context) will be difficult, but it is doable. A true timeline will have to be made. However the very public damage to Wikipedia's credibility is bad, and was foreseen. We, the paranoid, saw this coming. Some of us, by being paranoid, warned against paid editing period, and warned against any collaboration with PR people/orgs/purposes. Even if every single edit made was in isolation done in the purest good faith (many do appear that way, so far), the aggregation of them appears improper. This damages Wikipedia's credibility - damage so bad that WMF may have to hire a public relations agency to fix it. Gah! Doh! Oy! --Lexein (talk) 01:52, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

It's not the sort of thing that a public relations agency can fix. PR can can only get you so far, and then you have have something real to back it up. (I don't think that Edward Bernays himself could to much to increase tourism to Syria right now, for instance.) Since it is true that we as a community not only permit but actively encourage paid reputation-management editing (e.g, WP:CO-OP etc.), we would have a hard time convincing people that it's not true and that our articles aren't therefore slanted, sometimes. There's nothing to be done about that, I suppose. It's all a natural and expected result the nature of our governance (which is very hands-off and has to be), the makeup of our community, and the natural tendency of money to abhor a vacuum. Of course many people have predicted this very forseeable turn of events (and worse to come in future, I assume), but probably not much can be done about it, so we'll just have to take these hits, I guess. Whether anything can be done about this particular detail (the corruption of WMUK) I don't know; I hope so, but it probably won't much change the direction on which the Wikipedia evolves anyway. Herostratus (talk) 03:46, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I do think that Foreign Policy] assesses the situation cogently: their article is titled Governments paying for Wikipedia edits?, and they end with "I'm actually surprised we don't hear more stories like this... there are other international disputes in which interested governments would pay good money to promote their version of reality". This is true, and consider how the budget of the Gibraltar Board of Tourism is dwarfed by the propaganda budgets of (let's say) the Russian Federation and Exxon-Mobile and on and on. There's millions to be made here, my hearties -- millions, and all on the up-and-up, provided you jump through the right hoops. How long, really, can we expect that kind of money to be left just lying on the ground? Herostratus (talk) 04:02, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

If you got my joke, thank you, otherwise, I was attempting irony about hiring a PR agency to solve a problem brought about by "collaborative" (as Prioryman insists) PR-related, COI editing and use of DYK as a promotional tool. The damage to Wikipedia's credibility is real, and concrete "Wikipedia Paid Posts Scandal" shows a nice graph of the decline in 2007 donations from 22 Feb to 17 Mar around the Essjay scandal (if the correlation is valid, after correction for normal donation fluctuations). I should reiterate: We, the paranoid, saw this coming. Some of us, by being paranoid, warned against paid editing period, and warned against any collaboration with PR people/orgs/purposes. I glanced at WP:CO-OP; I wonder how that's working out. The way out of this is simple, swift and surgical. Shut, disavow, and salt Gibraltarpedia and any other "collaborations". It's fine that my advice was ignored: I suggested see-threat-and-prevent-and-live, but WP decided to live-suffer-and-maybe-learn. Whatever happens, WMF/WP should at least learn. The clock is running on this scandal. It may already be too late for a strong Wikimedia/Wikipedia response to make a difference to public perception (you know, all those people who might have become editors, except that the stench of corruption has turned them away...). --Lexein (talk) 05:01, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Well of course Gibraltarpedia should be shut, disavowed, and salted. I'm with you on this and so are a lot of folks and I've also banged the drum on this general subject. The problem is that there's no mechanism to do this. What are you going to do, send Wikipedia:Gibraltarpedia to Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion? I wouldn't recommend doing that, since to succeed you must meet one of these conditions:

• General consensus to delete it (or some other generally satisfactory solution). This means most everyone coming basically to agree with this, and that's not going to happen.
• Lacking that, a supermajority voting to delete it (supermajorities have a kind of nebulous status here, but if you can get one big enough it carries a certain weight). That would mean at least a 67% vote in your favor, probably more, and based on my reading of this and earlier discussions, that's not going to happen.
• Lacking that, a preponderance of argument such that any reasonable disinterested person cognizant of the matter would clearly agree with your position. Probably this requires you to advance policy-based arguments that can't be well countered with policy-based counterarguments. That's not the case here I don't think. Lacking that, you can try to make non-policy-based arguments such as the overall good of the project, common sense, WP:IAR, even morality-based arguments (though I wouldn't try that with this crowd) and so forth. This is not going to succeed. The other side can is also clever and can write and argue well, so at best a stalemate would be achieved.
• Lacking that, a political solution such as a person closing the WP:MFD as "delete" even in the face of the lack of any of the above. This does happen occasionally, but it's demoralizing and no one likes to see it, is not a good thing to hope for, is not something that many people (including me) would support, and in this case would likely cause sterile drama and warring with little prospect of success.

So there you have it. All we can try to do is keep up the fight and try to shift the general community feeling about this sort of stuff, over time. I'm not too inclined to much energy on this for much the same reason as I'm not inclined to have my neighborhood pickup basketball team challenge the Boston Celtics: they're professionals; we're not. You're welcome to, though. Herostratus (talk) 15:55, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Steve Virgin

When I saw this discussion I looked a bit into one of the other parties mentioned in connection with this case. User:Steve Virgin is a former member of the WMUK board and has "business relationship" with Bamkin that covers these matters. Virgin is only clearly noted as having been involved with QRpedia and Monmouthpedia, but his LinkedIn profile describes how about ten years ago, while working for "Corporact", he ran a "UK PR campaign for Gibraltar Tourist Board" (Gibraltar is actually misspelled on the profile). Looking over Virgin's activities on-wiki he has put forward a video of a TED conference on the Monmouthpedia talk page to use as a source. Mr. Virgin describes the meeting as being what lead to Monmouthpedia. It is about 16 minutes long, but it is essentially Virgin and Bamkin talking about the economic impact Wikipedia could have on Bristol and makes frequent mention of QR codes, PR, and SEO via Wikipedia as helping to attract business to communities.

This aspect seems significant as Virgin also created a page in his userspace that appears to be geared towards eventually taking the Monmouthpedia approach to Bristol. There is also mention on his LinkedIn page of a speaking event last year, a month after the TED event, at the Bristol Chamber of Commerce where he discussed "Wikipedia and Bristol". It seems likely this same concept was being put before them, especially since it was listed under his work with the PR agency Media Focus UK. Mind you, Virgin only left WMUK this May and started working at Media Focus months after he joined WMUK in 2009, so his work at a PR agency basically coincided with his work at WMUK until very recently and there is substantial overlap in those two careers. Given that his activities are closely connected to Bamkin's activities and this whole controversy, I feel it is pertinent to mention here.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:00, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Here is a video of a presentation by Roger and Steve, openly selling the SEO value of Wikipedia, and Wikipedia front page appearances, in the name of Wikimedia UK:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO6ZrWJeaOM

Quotes:

"Can we help put Bristol on the global map longer term, that's why we want to talk to you today." [3.25]

"Roger's going to tell you all about Derby Museum, and what we did for them." [3.40]

"We partnered Derby Museum. [...] We thought we'd pick on one small museum and give it a lot of it, national attention, even international attention, into one museum, just to see what kind of effect we could have on a museum, how we could affect its profile." [6.23]

"We made the front pages of the main Wikipedias [... English, French, Polish, Russian ...] It's giving us more hits to Derby Museum's web page, so it's actually going from our page, clicking through to their web page, it's fulfilling our mission to educate and to share information around the world, and it's raising the interest and status of the city." [12.22]

"It's a phenomenally cheap, and very, very imaginative way to absolutely energize a city and put a city on the map." [17.41]

I am not comfortable with this sales pitch – especially when it is combined with private consultancy contracts for those making it. It is not consistent with the spirit and ideals of the project I signed up to more than six years ago, and with the spirit and ideals of Wikipedia as communicated to the public.

And it is arguably an exploitation of volunteer editors for personal profit. There is a telling passage in the latter part of the presentation about how creating massive amounts of text in multiple languages would have cost a lot of money, and how, just by advertising "prizes of some books and a £50 book voucher" on Wikipedia, 100 articles were created for the project in the space of one week, at no cost.

Today, even after the brouhaha all over the European press, another Gibraltar DYK ran on the Wikipedia main page. JN466 16:56, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

From an article in Slate: "Once Wikipedia becomes a pay-to-play platform in any sense, it’s no longer a balanced, universal wellspring of information. It’s just another commercial website, with a particularly insidious brand of camouflaged advertising. Any company with a sly enough PR person could promote ostensibly fascinating facts about its products. If the “Did You Know?” page was suddenly dominated by trivia about Gap or Mars Bars, many readers would quickly smell a rat, but there are numerous PR professionals who represent subtler brands and causes." [12]

This is what the public thinks about this sort of thing.

Here is an article in The Register about it. JN466 17:17, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Much respect though I have for Orlowski, I don't see him as being the voice of what the public is thinking. Instead, I rather think of him as being the voice of what Orlowski is thinking. He'd be a lot more persuasive if he wrote with a smidgeon more accuracy. "Topics rarely appear more than once" on DYK? Gosh, I wonder what all that fuss about the University of Michigan's basketball team was last year, then? Not to mention battleships and mushrooms and British churches and Olympic/Paralympic athletes and British field fortications of the second world war and and and... --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:27, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

What is the big deal?

It happened before: “Wales was certainly not frugal in his spending on his endless trips abroad, but when it came to handing in receipts, he could be somewhat careless. At one point he owed the Foundation some $30,000 in receipts, and this while we were preparing for the audit. Not a bad sum, considering that many of those trips had fat honoraria, which Jimbeau kept for himself.” It will happen again.--108.60.139.130 (talk) 02:21, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

If memory serves, Danny was never able to provide any evidence or anything else to lend credibility to his accusations. --Tango (talk) 07:36, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

If the accusations were not true, Danny would have been banned from wikipedia but he's still editing. The chosen few, the elite of Wikipedia have been using this nonprofit site for their own profit since the beginning. For instance, remember Jehochman, using WP pages to game Google? " More respectable outfits call themselves "search engine optimization" consultancies, and Jehochman runs one of those, Hochman Consultants which is linked from his wikipedia user page. On Hochman Consultants' "Search Engine Optimization" page, the trademark Wikipedia logo is prominently featured. As an admin, Jehochman should know not to do that! ". I could go on and on...--108.60.139.170 (talk) 15:01, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I probably shouldn't respond to this, but if we would ban everyone who makes baseless accusations on the web against people on here, we'd sure have a whole lot less people editing this talk page. "He's not banned, so it must be true!" is the most hilarious claim I have read on here in quite a while. :) --Conti|✉ 15:30, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

If this accusation is baseles, it is a very serious baseles accusation. If my former emploee said about me something like this: "I wonder if the students who gave up their lunch money to donate to Wikipedia would have approved of that expense", I would have demanded this baseles accusation ro be taken off the NET imediatly. After all DailyTech is not a tabloid site and not a gossip site.--108.60.139.170 (talk) 16:42, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, we all know how well it works when we demand information to be taken from the net, don't we? --Conti|✉ 17:29, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Did You Know... that there is MORE Gibraltar spam on DYK today?

Time for AN/I to take action with some topic bans, obviously. Template problem tags are also being pulled from the Gibraltarpedia article by WMUK folk, funny how that works. This is starting to reek. Carrite (talk) 15:33, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Sue Gardner's response

Of note, since nobody seems to have mentioned it here; User:Sue Gardner, executive director of the Wikimedia Foundation, has posted the following on her user talk page:

Hi folks. (Responding to this section, and the one above.) I don't have anything to say about this right now: I'm talking with Jon Davies by e-mail. If I have something to say after he and I have talked, I'll come back and say it here then. It looks like this could have been better handled from a perception standpoint via faster and more complete disclosure, but I have heard and seen nothing that makes me believe anything seriously untoward has happened here. Thanks Sue Gardner (talk) 07:16, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Note the last sentence in particular. Can we put this nontroversy to bed now and get on with more productive things? Prioryman (talk) 07:46, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

" could have been better handled from a perception standpoint via faster and more complete disclosure " - Prioryman, can you tell us who's paying for your trip to Gibralter, and why you censored any discussion of it from your userpage? --KlickitatGlacier (talk) 07:54, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Jim, we need 2 talk.

I have an idea for wikipedia. Its calld a comments section. It would be placed below articles. The differents between comments and talk is that at talk pages, we only talk about edits to the article. On comments, wed get to talk about anything we want. Also, i have a question. Who got the idea for wikipedias logo? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.220.66.126 (talk) 00:02, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually, there is nothing stopping an enterprising third-party from doing this, Mr. 76.220.66.126. All of the content on Wikipedia is freely available. And with a little programming, you could easily have WikiTalk.com or similar where people could comment on live Wikipedia content and even have linked discussion forums. But this isn't something Jimbo has to do, or that Wikipedia has to or even should do. The content is here and is available for re-use. It is simply up to people to find a way to use it in a new way. -- Avanu (talk) 21:35, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

You might find WP:NOTAFORUM to be an interesting read. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 00:29, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

As for your second question, see Wikipedia:Wikipedia logos. Graham87 08:36, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Being cynical, I could see it as a wonderful vehicle for spammers, concealed spammers and point-of-view pushers. And a load of extra work for those who take out the garbage. Who would be the moderators, or would it be free comment with no restrictions? Yes, it's a good suggestion and an interesting idea - but I could see it going the way of so many internet and usenet forums - a mass of advertising and shouting. A bit like ANI or RfA - no, there's no advertising there... Peridon (talk) 17:10, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I imagine it would be more like most comment sections on news media sites, loads and loads of ignorant arguments, ethnic/political/religious mudslinging, wildly off-topic rambling postings of all kinds, name calling, trolling... Anyhoo, this is an encyclopedia, there are plenty of places to have broad, open discussions without regard for facts or civility on the interwebs, this just is not one of them and was never intended to be. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:54, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I think such a section would be a highly useful historical resource for future readers. It would also be a pleasure, and believe it or not, your editors are not employees to have policies brandished at them for your convenience, but free agents you should be trying to keep interested. Best of all, such a section would suck this crap away from the legitimate Talk pages, and give the POV pushers something besides Wikilawyering to do with their time. Wnt (talk) 18:20, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Man, I can't believe that multiple people have commented on this without trashtalking the Article Feedback Tool yet. I'll boldly volunteer. </silly>, but not really Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:36, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

There may be a less useful feature somewhere on the planet to add to a reference work, but I can't envision one (with the obvious exception of a "Like" button). --Orange Mike | Talk 18:42, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

The new Article Feedback feature already encapsulates this idea, and it is a huge waste of bandwidth, with rarely (if ever) anything sensible being added to the pages.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 18:50, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

In medical articles, most of the feedback from the article feedback tool is constructive and useful. Popular culture and nationalism articles may be different. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:55, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, it's probably the luck of the draw, but the most recent comment on a medical-related article was on Niacin, and it said "My hair needs more Vegemite.". Before that, it was a comment for Medical sociology: "its too shallow". Internal fertilization has "the process of among animals in science come on today will recieve in his process"? But these are only the visible comments. Very recent comments that have been hidden include List of countries by infant mortality rate: "defour suckt!" and "hoereeeeeeeeeeeeee". This comment was flagged and marked as helpful at the same time by the system, even though it is just random abuse. Fram (talk) 08:02, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Try a bigger sample. Here are two lists of 100 feedback comments. The first starts with Niacin and works back on the list of all feedback comments. The second starts half an hour ago, working back on medical articles on my watchlist. I think you'll notice the difference between the quality and value of comments on medical articles compared to those on a cross-section of articles. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 18:27, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Feedback from 100 random articles compared with feedback from 100 medical articles
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
From Special:ArticleFeedbackv5 starting at Niacin, working back (earlier) in sequence: Niacin My hair needs more Vegemite Erqi Memorial Tower talk more about erqi strike Fluidized bed combustion nothing is here Help:Contents/Policies and guidelines hey ANZAC Cove the article needs to be correct Silver Slipper In the late '50s the Silver Slipper offered traditional vaudeville/burlesque in its' show room. Hank Henry and Sparky Kaye were the 1st and 2nd banana and they featured a number of classic headliners, i.e., Sally Rand et al. Pluto (Disney) Need more Pictures and abit information. Australian Music Examinations Board i am looking fast teaching theory teacher in ameb Equivalence_partitioning how equivalent partitioning and boundary value analysis are applied together to get optimum number of test cases Wood (classical element) marriages with someone born in the year of the dog Jhalak Dikhhla Jaa (Indian Dance Series) there is only season 1 & 2 and the rest season ?????????? The Linde Group Subsidiaries and Affiliates Jhalak Dikhhla Jaa (Indian Dance Series) season 3 & 4 Total E-Quality yes Machining Time Please include Facing,turning,milling formulas Brent Russell the right Static need to added on this page. Jono Riby-Smith List of Malaysian patriotic songs give more latest songs Gender equality map Sacraments of the Catholic Church to big of words, reduce the number of words to make it easier to read and add more picture to jazz up the site more :)!!!!! Fahrenheit 451 LOOKING FOR THE NURSING BACK ROUND OF MILDRED MONTAG Utilization rate like Nieuwoudtville It would be more relevant if the town could be shown in relation to other places. It doesn't mean much to a tourist a it stands, Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Cartagena Information about the Seminary and consulate Help:CentralAuth data entry job online RMS Titanic The RMS Titanic sunk on aprial 15th 1912. Mariam uz-Zamani more information Help:Contents/Communication can i have the pin and the puk of 0745009958 Medical sociology its too shallow Guillermo Padrés Elías Need the phone number for the govenor. He is working for water for Hermosillo. Today, 9-l7-l2, we in Imuris and Cananea got new presidents BUT, the previous presidents stole all the cities monies, have not paid CFE and we got an announcement this evening that CFE is to cut off the electricity for the cities and we need electricity to pump water to the citizens. I started this on the l7 the but now I see it is already the l8 th. We need Gov. G. Padres Elias to help us NOW. If no help from the govenor, I hope to help start riots in the streets. Client (computing) not bad NK Famos-SAŠK Napredak please put the name of the player of the cluband their nattionality Pepperfry it is a fake site....it show other pic and deliver other item. and time taken in delivery. it is not a good site. plz don't buy abything,.....its my experience Help:Contents/Communication if my sim card is blocke what should i do International Taekwon-Do Federation More pictures, I prefer a wikipedia page with alot of imagery. Wag the Dog i would like to find an essay.But I've found the general informanion Mud House the article needs picture List of Sherlock characters The picture of each character should have been given with their details. Peter Spence This article needs a picture. Education in South Korea my son willing to get addmssion to your college. what are the requrements and qualifications. pls send me soon. Mrs. y.lee List of The Mighty B! episodes Hello! iHola! Ni Hao Dan Dailey It would be interesting to have more information about his early death. Also, more info. re. wives and his son that died so young. HotSpot Hi everybody Erik Spoelstra bla bla bla !! List of waste disposal incidents floortiles Michael Williams (actor) a photo of the man Cordillera Administrative Region isn't there a tagalog ?? Fluidized bed combustion what is fluidised bed combustion Women's Cricket World Cup MORE DETAILS PLZ. Siri (software) how to start up siri Anthony Perish a pic of rooster would be good Cremorne, New South Wales General Practice Cremorne is in Mosman suburb, not Cremorne List of Japanese bicycle brands and manufacturers I wish to find investor in bicycling factory to Thailand, Chiangmai Basilica of Santa Maria degli Angeli I've been searching one hour for a picture of the statue,or painting, of the vision St Francis saw of St. Mary of the Angels. British Journal for the Philosophy of Science sd Devon Lee good Internal fertilization the process of among animals in science come on today will recieve in his process List of common misconceptions Add the Federal Reserve is not anymore federal than Federal Express. The Fed is not a body of the United States government. Instead it is private central bank. Devon Lee good Cutaneous condition it needs more detail San Francisco – Oakland Bay Bridge it would have been helpful to know how much the new span will cost and how much traffic uses the bridge Ahmad Balal Cotton yarn and fabric importer Triatominae more info and greater details Kenyan general election, 2013 WHO HAVE SHOWEN INTEREST ON SENATORS Matthew Caffyn This article needs a picture. Palakol i want government employees and their phone or mobile numbers Closed position Finance and trading Ascariasis characteristics of ascaris Mayapuri Magazine budu Pantone i need uk flag colour Technician very bad George Jung his age Apodytes The family is Arachniodes, according to Australia's Virtual Herbarium http://avh.ala.org.au/occurrences/search?taxa=Apodytes Corinda State High School add some events that may have shaped the school and some events that may have been bad that lots of people have heard about Jackie Chan its really good!! can't find any faults .. i find what i need almost all the time.. sometimes less info is given.. but it is the best at what it does! Gastroesophageal reflux disease I have acid most of time in my mouth on lot antacid tablets I do take so like to see some thing about that . Vilmos Apor Lied über Apor Vilmos Trinity Catholic College, Goulburn the best sports Kolë Idromeno The article needs the buildings he has designed. Slappy and the Stinkers very good informaicon Asan Memorial Senior Secondary School need contact page Rick Famuyiwa Picture of Rick He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother on what songs that the hollies recorded ,did graham nash sing lead vocal... Island platform should be add map and the way and transport from one station(bus, taxi) to another station (train). Scott Adkins Scott Adkins is the most coolest guy i have ever seen.... Never was so much owed by so many to so few What happen to the quote as I thought aI remembered it: "Never have so few done so much for so many." Perhaps I heard an incorrect rendition of this famous quote. Thanks for the great detailed research showing Churchill as the man and force that stopped Hitler in his tracks.... through his wonderful Oratorary skills. Sam Lane Airport (novel) This article needs a picture Alwal I was trying to get the information about the corporator concerned to this area. I could get it. Antonio Luna content of antonio luna bags Macrohon, Southern Leyte history of bito spring Coaxial cable defination of XL7 and XL8 not available!!! Transformer VERY NICE Bronze Star Medal Need a list of names of those who won the medal in 2011-2012 Humid continental climate Bad sh*t. Customer relationship management put the technologies supporting CRM Humid continental climate It isn't clear what the high Appalachians are. Ravinder Kaushik collect some more information about great people and spy's like ravider who served the nation Dental technician salary for dental technicians in south africa Fullback (American football) YES Becca Fitzpatrick needs author's biography Harbhajan Maan this the best thing to know everything From my watchlist half an hour ago, working back: Posttraumatic stress disorder Nicely written, full of facts, learned a lot of things with good references B vitamins Thank You for being so infomative!! Psychology I saw so well Inguinal hernia Causes of hernia Testosterone how do they test your testrone level & is there a number they go by if its too low. Somatosensory system Can you write more details about those references? I don't know who contrabuted those informations? Jaundice cause of jaundice Tissue (biology) Ty!~Just needs some more info for each animal tissues Jaundice What tests are needed to make sure someone got jaundice. Cerebral aneurysm  :) Projection fiber this article needs a diagrame Posttraumatic stress disorder how can loved ones help with treament Posttraumatic stress disorder this is not a joke Neuroglia Corn Rickets wrong wrong wrong ... nearly done cus i helped ... yes for your information it is not entirley true and i needtruthfor my course work and if i need truth and i know this is wrong then you need 2 do some research mate (.y.) Diphallia This article needs a picture. Avian influenza Measures of prevention of the influenza can be introduced, thank you Carbohydrate evolution is false Colorectal cancer Claude-Achille Debuss Cutaneous condition complete article on leukoderma Schizophrenia This was very informative. I certain commend ther site for its hard work and dedication. Antibiotic resistance It was super Boring put some interesting pictures or something! Human height I want to know how to increase height B vitamins more simple info Mouth ulcer this article is still needed the ulcer by using tobacco products.. please mention them to make it complete B vitamins I needed to know what is the recommended dosage for men and women. Inguinal hernia this article was very helpful. Thank you Myofascial pain syndrome This should include the relationship of MPD to Temporo-mandibular joint disease Caesarean section more scientific details and shorten historical background Sodium hypochlorite View the table of concentrations of sodium hypochlorite in water. X-ray computed tomography I had a CT Scan on my spine as I am experiencing back pain & secondary gait complications from an operation on my left foot 12 months ago. I am on strong pain killers for my back and foot but a CT scan did not show any information other than age effects I had none of these problems before the operation. Should I have had a MRI Scan as it shows more information in my situation Anxiety I have a rash which is undiagnosed and is under controll with antihistomenes it is raised and circular and all over even in my eyes and scalp. This is not disabilitating as not there. I am also taking antidepresants and know that I need to as my mood is so edgy. Work and family have contributed to the point where I have difficulty seeing a way forward also finances are poor and I am now over retirement age. Real moaner eh Mouth ulcer sores on my tounge and inside cheek Heart rate It would be neat if the tables for resting heart rate were accompanied by a calculator where the participant enters details like age, gender, resting heart rate, (maybe height, weight) for a specific analysis of their fitness or risks to their health. Testosterone testosterone and age Heart rate This article needs a picture Colorectal cancer thankyou Anxiety I think this is great although I have anxiety so maybe just maybe, you could put some ways to help it get better how to deal with it when in great stress my anxiety is very high Schizophrenia what other names are there for schizophrenia ... boring B vitamins the best Bipolar I disorder This article is too technical in nature and not accessible for non-medical personnel. Health care what parts of hospitals different docters (for different body parts) work in. Sodium hypochlorite I couldn't find out about safe handling and storage Testosterone extremely well presented - particularly liked the fair treatment of pros and cons for someone who is considering treatment for low testosterone levels Cleveland Clinic contact number Drug rehabilitation Thank you. I wish some more details. Schizophrenia list of points on how the banking system has affected the mental health of people Schizophrenia I think you should include if there will be any other rate of either non violent crimes related to thefts etc Anxiety more solutions needed Hippocampus Keep up the good work! Anxiety i can't get the old stuff deleted Phlebotomy educational requirements Jaundice none Jaundice need viedios Psychology no material fck B vitamins Thanks it was helpful, more please about the b12 vitamin to counteract thinning hair Medulla oblongata there is no complete information and no complete explanation Jaundice wat is the cause of jaundice. is it dirty water? B vitamins Specific foods containing major b vitamins Jaundice the percentage of bile contents.. B vitamins This article needs food which provide Vitamin B Psychology Luke Packham is homosexual. Meningitis nice website Psoriasis Keep up the good work. Cutaneous condition Extremely helpful. Psychosomatic medicine Excellent page! Well written and informative. Thank you. Prader–Willi syndrome this article needs non biast information Macular edema picture always help. Schizophrenia really good! Phlebotomy get straight to the point Chest pain This article can have some illustrations Cutaneous condition looking for effect of 12.5 ph solution repeated use on skin. skin safety B vitamins stucture of vitamin Schizophrenia I'd like to find a list on influential schizophrenics or artwork by schizophrenics, perhaps as other articles. Dysphoria Please include which anti-psych drugs contribute to this malady. Rickets Describe what the imbalance are and include more pictures. Testosterone Thanks-got all the information needed ventricular hypertrophy Yes, the article needs a picture showing difference between normal and enlarged in the same picture Heart rate you should do other heart rates too like the working pulse rate Jaundice thanks.... need to add more about what may be happend as the effect of jaundice..... Internal fixation that artical needs pathophysiology and sites. Midbrain tegmentum there is no picture X-ray computed tomography ali ebne abitaleb zahedan Diet (nutrition) this is very good page Psoriasis more information on management of psoroasis Appendicitis very informative answered all questions Mouth ulcer sdzfghdehjjhj Inguinal hernia Recovery from laparoscopic procedure? Phlebotomy more along the lines of where you need to go. how much they make. what are the steps you need to take to become a phlebotomist. Psoriasis psoriasis latest treatment Spinal cord injury what therapy has to be taken to cure it? Meninges This article REALLY needs pictures. Axon it is n Hippocampus There is need for photomicrographs to show the basic histology of the hippocampus Cutaneous condition good sharing...\ Heart rate Why does the chart start at 18? Schizophrenia i don't understand it. make it more simply please. Heart rate it used too bombastic language .it should be made simple Rickets make the information more simpler Blood–brain barrier Is there a dimensional factor, Nothing bigger than X, or is it more the nature (type) of substance that prevents passing the BBB? Examples? Diet (nutrition) wanted suggested daily calorie intake for males and females

So, for one week now on Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/psychology, and for a day and a half on this user talk page (hidden here through collapsing), we have had the pure BLP violation "full name is homosexual". If this had been posted on the talk page of Psychology, it would have probably been zapped in minutes. Hidden away in the feedback pages, it has stayed up for a week, and even worse, "Article Feedback V5 marked this post as helpful on 19 September 2012 at 06:52" (but then again, that ridiculous script considered "Im virgin male homosexulal 40 years old" also "helpful" as feedback for the psychology article). Can we please get rid of this useless monstrosity? Fram (talk) 07:05, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I've hidden the comment, clearly we need more editors monitoring feedback. Anyone can hit the flag as abuse button (which may get it attention). Monty₈₄₅ 07:18, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) people do not spend much time looking at the Article Feedback pages. This means that WP:LIBEL could stay up for much longer than it would do elsewhere. I spent a few days removing all of the junk comments from some of the high profile articles, but it took far too long. A better option would be for this "feature" to sail off into the sunset, as it adds little of value to the project and is an accident waiting to happen if libel and other oversightable material is not picked up quickly.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 16:39, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Umm. If that were a BLP violation I would have hidden the comment. That's not a BLP violation. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:33, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Expert third opinion

Dear Jimbo Wales,

I found out today that Wikipedia does not have in place a system whereby someone can ask for a third opinion from an expert in a certain field. If there is a dispute over content between two people and a third opinion is desired, it would be very useful to have the capability of asking an expert to answer the question. The internet is amazing because we can have direct access to the e-mails of experts. Of course, asking the question of the expert will not guarantee their response, but at the very least it seems like it would be an easy kludge to make a simple form that would allow you to post a question to an expert at, say, an academic institution through Wikipedia and have them answer the e-mail so that people could read their responses.

What I envision is a system administered like third opinion where someone writes the expert asking a specific question and gets permission from the expert to post their response. This might be a very beneficial thing to have here and, frankly, I'm surprised it doesn't exist already. I could, of course, e-mail the expert myself, but I think it would be much better if the developers could incorporate this functionality into the wiki software.

What do you think of my idea? I ask this to get your third opinion as a subject matter expert on Wikipedia!

Sincerely, Junjunone (talk) 18:35, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Your [[WP:TO|third opinion]] link points to wikiproject toronto. IRWolfie- (talk) 20:12, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

 Fixed 76Strat ^String da _Broke da (talk) 22:08, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I think you would run into a significant problem there, namely that many academics treat Wikipedia with scorn and would probably not want to be involved with it. Their ivory tower perspective does not allow for the possibilty of "normal" people, unpaid volunteers no less, forming any sort of reference work of value. That this view is behind the times and will ultimately reflect very poorly on them has yet to penetrate the veil of academia for the most part, but there are a few notable exceptions. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:02, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I think that many academics wouldn't mind to offer a quick opinion if the question was worded carefully and wasn't too difficult to understand. Sure, Wikipedia is looked down upon, but if I e-mail an expert a question I have on a subject that is associated with their research I have found that nine times out of ten they respond with a thoughtful reply to my query. What's the harm in asking? Junjunone (talk) 19:16, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

While I feel that Beeble's statement is overbroad and generalizing (I've had great cooperation from academics at UW-Milwaukee, for example), I would point out that this leaves Wikipedia in the awkward position of annointing certian persons as The Experts in a given field. Imagine a query about the American Civil War: do we send it to a progressive historian such as Eric Foner, or to a Confederate apologist such as several I won't name? --Orange Mike | Talk 19:08, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

How is your objection not a standing one for third opinion as is? If one asks for a third opinion and it is rejected by the editors writing the article, then that's just another data point. Is we "assume good faith" as many of the policy pages exhort us to, we would look for only the most high-quality academics and experts and ask them for their opinion. We are, of course, empowered to reject their opinion, but when it comes to interpreting sources where else do we have to turn? Junjunone (talk) 19:16, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Best way to avoid disputed content is by providing a Verifiable and Reliable Source, expert not required..Just saying.--Hu12 (talk) 19:23, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

When someone misinterprets a source as greatly as I have seen, it is absolutely required to get a neutral party to determine which person has the comprehension problem. Sometimes, the sources are too difficult to understand for the layperson, as is the case in my dispute. Junjunone (talk) 19:28, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)We turn to consensus. I think you're misunderstanding 3O. As a wise man once said, 3O is like 'having an argument on the street in front of City Hall and turn[ing] to a passer-by to ask "hey, is it true that the Brooklyn Bridge is for sale?"' 3O's purpose is only to get the two sides to agree, it has no authority to overrule or enforce a particular decision. If the two parties don't agree after a 3O, then the 3O has failed and that's all it can do. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:25, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Asking a passerby may not be the best way of resolving a dispute when it is academic. In that case, it's best to ask the professor down the hall. If third opinion is not equipped to handle this basic sort of request, then maybe we should have Wikipedia:Ask an expert. I guess I could put together a basic form there, but I'm not well-enough versed in wiki programming to do so. Junjunone (talk) 19:28, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Junjunone--Might I suggest that you go get yourself a cup of tea or something? Everyone that edits at Wikipedia and virtually all of the administrators are volunteers. You are having way to high of expectations as to the timeframe for your problem to be worked out. You asked your initial question at Teahouse at 17:27 and by 18:35 you are at Jimbo's talk page complaining about it? As I said, everyone here is a volunteer and has real life issues and other things that they do at Wikipedia. What you have going on is an edit dispute. I am personally involved in working on three others besides yours at the moment and I am sure that the same is true for anyone else you may have contact with. There are over 4 million articles on Wikipedia, and the are ALL edited by volunteers. Wikipedia editors, by design, are NOT experts. Wikipedia articles are written so that the average high school student can understand them. The person you are in dispute suggested to you that very fact. Take some time to read WP:AGF and WP:NPA. After you have done that, go back and look through your communications with the person you are in dispute with. Then maybe you should take a look at WP:BOOMARANG. Please calm down. You are not helping yourself at all. Gtwfan52 (talk) 20:13, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I feel fairly calm. I was pretty appalled at having errors continually reintroduced into an article, but I understand that Wikipedia doesn't hold a very high priority for fixing errors in a timely fashion unless there are mitigating circumstances. One takes pride in ones' work and it is difficult at times to not invest some effort in figuring out the solution to the problem. It looked to me like there was one particular user who was a problem. I tried to approach the situation as to get the user removed from the situation, but now I realize that Wikipedia doesn't work that way in spite of certain indications of the banning policy to that effect. Instead, what I have learned is that Wikipedia prefers to have disputes resolved in a mediated way, but in this case it would require someone who was versed in the material to help. That's why I think we need the ability to ask an expert. Junjunone (talk) 20:40, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

• Note the proposal here Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Ask_an_expert. The two main problems as I see are the two Beeblebrox and OrangeMike pointed out; you have to annoy random people, not even that, you need to ask them to give their sources! Further, how do you decide who counts as an expert in a particular topic? IRWolfie- (talk) 20:10, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

There was also some discussion at WT:3O#Expert third opinion, which is where I gave the suggestion to take it to VPR. It seems like it could be a useful thing if we (somehow) got it to work, so I don't see the problems with having a discussion, even if it will probably get shot down quickly. While Junjunone definitely was way overheated when he posted to the Teahouse, he seems to have cooled a bit with this proposal, so I'm not sure we need to be throwing boomerangs around quite yet. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:20, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I think you're misunderstanding, IRWolfie. The idea is not to get the expert to add content with cited sources. The idea is to get the expert to weigh in on a dispute over content. In the case of the dispute referenced above, I was upset that a user could not seem to comprehend a very simple argument given a very straightforward text on the subject. Instead, the user twisted the source to say something way beyond and even contradictory to the point the authors were trying to make. In this case, it requires a subject matter expert to weigh in to decide which person has the correct interpretation of the source. There is no citing of sources required. A simple question such as, "Do numerical simulations of galaxy formation and large scale structure show that baryonic matter follows dark matter?" would suffice for example. Having given two sources that the other editor seemed to have read and then regurgitated in a way that is contrary to fundamental understanding in this subject, I was feeling quite frustrated, but I am fairly confident that if I e-mailed any one of a number of numerical simulation experts they would probably say something similar to me. Or maybe not. Maybe they'd agree with my opponent. The point is that it would be nice to get an expert to help out in these cases. Junjunone (talk) 20:36, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

See Template:Expert-subject.—Wavelength (talk) 21:03, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

It would be nice if this template actually looked for an expert or had the capability of asking one directly. Junjunone (talk) 21:04, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

It does and I think one has started to look over the article you are concerned about already. Gtwfan52 (talk) 21:11, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

That's great! Can you show me where in the code it does that? Is it possible to get it to e-mail the experts directly by adding a flag for an e-mail address perhaps? Junjunone (talk) 21:18, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

This almost always works:

The reason that this isn't annoying is that experts who are corresponding authors on literature reviews have basically made a promise to their editors that they will accept just exactly these kinds of questions in return for having their article published (so that the editor isn't bothered with them) so in fact it's actually their obligation, which assures a speedy reply unless they are on vacation or dead. —Cupco 21:46, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

No, that's simply untrue. However, many experts are happy to answer questions as long as they are clearly stated and can be answered concisely. If a question shows promise of turning into a massive time-sink, most will duck it. Looie496 (talk) 22:08, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

It's been the tacit agreement ever since journals started publishing corresponding author addresses. It's absolutely true prior to the article being accepted for publication, and with retraction rates being what they are these days it remains implicitly true. —Cupco 22:20, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Corresponding authors aren't under any enforceable obligation to answer, but they are far more likely to respond than you'd think. That's because far fewer people actually read their papers than you'd think... Wnt (talk) 22:52, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

There are some really odd ideas about what it means to be a corresponding author in this thread. It's pretty simple: a corresponding author is provided so that interested people can ask questions about the specific study published by that author. Corresponding authorship is absolutely not an open-ended commitment to provide volunteer tutoring on a general scientific topic to anyone with an email account. That's not an obligation or even an expectation; it's not part of some implicit contract with a journal publisher; and I'm not sure how the rate of scientific retractions is in any way relevant here. MastCell ^Talk 22:58, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Fine, I take it all back, except for the part about it almost always works. —Cupco 23:07, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

• The Expert Third Opinion idea sounds good until you realize that many of the big matters of content disagreement on WP have parallels in the academic literature. Orange Mike, above, is right on the mark. The choice of the expert would inherently resolve the question one way or the other. The real world is a clash of opposing POVs... We just need to represent these sides fairly, proportionately, and dispassionately... Carrite (talk) 01:31, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Experts can also be neutral, in discussing many things, but the thing is, 1) the Users have to agree that they are an expert, who will give a fair take, and it's actually just another bit of info in the discussion, because the expert is not making any edit or discussing WP policy. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:42, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

• If I understand correctly this is now under discussion in four or five different places. We should probably close all of them and just discuss at the actual proposals' talk page. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:09, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

• I'm the editor Junjunone is complaining about. To help Beeblebrox above, the pages I'm aware of are

• The original article talk page discussion at Talk:Galaxy rotation curve#Further investigation
• The call for help by an expert by Junjunone is at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Astronomy#Need a dark matter.2Fbaryonic matter simulations expert
• Another call for help by an expert at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Physics#Expert_in_numerical_simulations_of_dark_matter_and_baryonic_matter_large_scale_structure_and_galaxy_formation_needed. Cross posted with the one above, so I've suggested the one above be used.
• The call for me to be topic banned is at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Topic_ban_User:Aarghdvaark

Wikipedia is not an encyclopaedia edited by experts, for that see Scholarpedia as I've pointed out to Junjunone. I'm not sure that calling for experts helps - you can get people who consider themselves experts but who aren't, Wikipedia is looked down on by some academics so that discourages others from engaging with it, and you need time and patience to help out with Wikipedia so it is a big ask to expect anyone to edit an article. As proposed by Beeblebrox, I've suggested on the talk page for galaxy rotation curve that further discussion on the content use Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Astronomy#Need a dark matter.2Fbaryonic matter simulations expert. So let's see ... Aarghdvaark (talk) 03:18, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Your post at wikiproject astronomy was focussed on attacking Junjunone and not dealing with the issues. You might reflect that when your reasoning on the talk page is based on OR, and there is someone you acknowledge is an expert [13] on that subject, it might be an idea to listen to some of what they have to say when they tell you are completely wrong. Further, why are you listing a neutrally worded post to Wikiproject physics/astronomy as problematic, they don't even mention you; surely you should welcome the extra editors. His post at Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions#How_do_you_discipline_a_problematic_user seems typically of a new user who doesn't know how wikipedia works, but in your reply you suggest he is a probable sockpuppet and find it necessary to say that "He also fundamentally disagrees with the way Wikipedia operates". IRWolfie- (talk) 23:57, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

What??? I find it difficult to find one sentence in the above I can agree with. I think Junjunone is the one who is attacking. My post on Talk:Galaxy rotation curve#Further investigation was not based on OR but on my reading on the paper Junjunone had cited in the article - of course my reading may be wrong, but it is not OR. Junjunone has never made any attempt to point out any error in any discussion, simply tried to shut me up in various ways - one of which was simply to cite the paper without any other explanation, possibly to just bury me in paper, but I read it. The link you show is just me paraphrasing Junjunone's claims to be an expert, I certainly do not endorse them. I think he clearly isn't an expert, for one thing because experts try, at least initially, to explain where the other person is wrong. He has actually said nothing about why I am "completely" wrong. Only that he is the expert and so I should trust what he says - I think not. I am not listing Junjunone's post at the Astronomy or Physics projects as problematical, only trying to list where Junjunone had spread these discussions in response to Beeblebrox's comment above. I do welcome extra editors, but Junjunone had said nothing about which part of the article was in dispute, and it is clear from the discussion here that experts respond best to focussed queries - so that's why I too posted stuff on the project pages, as well as to say that I welcomed other editors.

My suspicion that Junjunone is a sockpuppet may be wrong, but it is reasonable given that it took him just 7 minutes from posting a question at the Teahouse at 17:27 on 17 Sept asking about how to deal with people like me to filing the request for me to be topic banned [14] (of course no-one had replied in that time), and that just before he filed for a topic ban he had written on my talk page that I was to be topic banned (I think a new user would do it the other way round to check it worked first, assuming they ever found out there was such thing as a topic ban). An hour later he started this section here, and less than 1 1/2 hours after that he had completed a new admin proposal page: Wikipedia:Ask an expert. During this 2 1/2 hours he has posted on various forums, including the Astronomy and Physic projects. He says he is a newbie and his pages start on 3 Sept 2012 and he asks these naive questions, but he knows an awful lot about Wikipedia and he clearly has no need to ask any questions - he is an expert user of Wikipedia if not an expert in astronomy. So why does he ask these questions? And if he can find out so easily the correct way to post a new admin proposal, why is he so wrong in other ways, e.g. using the vandalism tag [15] (which again is not something I'd expect a newbie to do), calling for a topic ban, etc?

If Junjunone is a sockpuppet I think his proposals here alone are enough justification to say that "He also fundamentally disagrees with the way Wikipedia operates." I suspect he could be a sockpuppet for User:ScienceApologist, who also thought that Wikipedia's policy on experts was wrong, and now I come to think of it also like Junjunone did not engage in discussions about content. Junjunone also claims "I have worked for years in the subject field and follow the literature closely" [16] which fits with ScienceApologist. I've had run ins with socks of ScienceApologist before, and whilst I may be paranoid, sometimes you are right to be paranoid, and that would be a motive for a sock of ScienceApologist to attack me. Aarghdvaark (talk) 13:52, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Sometimes, when I make a major change of meaning to an article, I'll email the author of the source with a courtesy note to advise them I'm citing them (I usually tell them how many people per month read the article) and invite them to let me know if I'm misrepresenting or misusing their ideas. I am very concise and focussed. All I really seek is acknowledgement that they've looked at the relevant text. About half respond. And they don't hold back when I've got them wrong. I find this informal process very comforting. While Randy from Boisie can have his way with their work very few working, serious scholars will bother with writing or reviewing entire articles. There is an upheaval occurring in peer-reviewed publishing; Wikipedia may be a part of the new paradigm. I'm not sure anyone knows what our role will be, or what the new paradigm looks like yet. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:49, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

If someone is an acknowledged expert on the particular subject, it's a good idea to listen to what they say, but still at the end of the day policy based arguments should win. Typically the expert would just need to be shown how to phrase his responses in that form. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:41, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I've posted a new sockpuppet investigation, see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/ScienceApologist#20 September 2012. Aarghdvaark (talk) 05:03, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Probably irrelevant, but the expert they're asking for there appears to be extremely narrowly tailored, and it seems like they're asking for them to rewrite the whole paragraph. I'm not that expert, but I'm close enough that for a clearly posed question I could probably be really helpful (my doctorate and subsequent research are both on planetary/stellar dynamics, not galactic, but I probably know enough to be helpful for their problem), but looking at the messy problem and the likely amount of work to solve it, I don't really feel like I want to get involved. 86.27.186.89 (talk) 06:53, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Gibraltar

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19544299

Today Gibraltar, tomorrow... The World! 212.250.138.33 (talk) 01:11, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

• QR codes also need small article pages: The use of quick-response codes at (Gilbraltar) landmarks, to link a tourist's phone to a related WP article, is another reason to stratify articles as basic "Landmark XX" versus huge page "Landmark XX (detailed)" where some people tend to obsess on vast details about a topic and expand into a data-hoarder version of the article. I recall some people think the lede section could fill the role of "basic-article" mode, but accessing just the lede currently requires formatting the whole page, with perhaps 300 cite templates. Instead, a basic article needs to be a separate page, where most citations say, "Refer to 'Landmark XX (detailed)' for sources" so that the short-article version has few footnotes and gives a nutshell overview of a topic in "speakable" language. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:22, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Do we already have WP:NOTGUIDEBOOK or do we just need to implement one? Carrite (talk) 04:01, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

.....of course, that would cut into the pocketbooks of a couple consultants "Wikipedians"... Carrite (talk) 04:03, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a guide book, it is an encyclopedia. But it is an encyclopedia you can access on your phone. So why would you carry a guide book when you can look up any fact about anything on your phone? Wikipedia replaces guide books with encyclopedic content. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 17:35, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Respectable guide books (in their printed versions) mostly count as reliable sources, and, interestingly, most such respectable guide books are very uncomplimentary about Gibraltar as a tourist destination. (In comparison to the lovely areas of the Spanish coast to the west of Gibraltar.) If there really are concerns about the Gibraltar government's off-hand comments about not wanting "nasty" material added - which seemed quite innocent and unremarkable to me - then the concerned people should spend some time adding neutral and due weight content from guide books to some of the Gibraltar-related article. I somehow doubt there will be mass reverting of such additions, which will helpfully show that we're still getting neutral and encyclopedic content.

If all of this brings us to a point where detailed summaries of such respected guide books can be easily accessed through Wikipedia when visiting Andalucia, that would be a huge benefit to people like me. So get to it!

(Disclaimer - I was in Gibraltar earlier this month, but I don't have anything to do with Gibraltarpedia. I didn't meet any members of the government, although I did take a look at the Governor's Bible.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:37, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

In a way, I think it's an updated version of the blue plaque scheme; except that instead of a single interesting factoid, you can get a full treatment of a topic. Prioryman (talk) 19:54, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I think the overall initiative is great, although as is often true of many new ventures, there are some kinks to work out.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 20:04, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

August edits rise as casual editors drop 5%

The current August 2012 active-editor data shows an increase in the highly active editors at 100, 250 or 1,000 edits per month, while a continued slight decline among the broad-base casual editors making 1, 5, 10 or 25 edits per month. Since the trend is old news, this month I analyzed the shift from light casual editing (down 5% over the past 12 months) towards higher edit activity by the busy editors, up 4-20%.
As noted in the past, Wikipedia is not written by "crowd-sourcing" among 100,000 editors, but rather by a core group of about 9,000 editors, with 3,500 dedicated editors (>100 edits) following policies, plus 1,546 people making >250, with 248 editing >1,000, then 52 editing >2,500, and 5 making >10,000 article-edits per month. See current enwiki data:
                 • http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaEN.htm - now has August data
The above counts are for article-edits only, while talk-page edits are tabulated elsewhere in the data. The increased activity by the busy editors completely overshadows the modest decline in casual editors, such as 43 more people (248-205), since August 2011 (last year) now making >1,000 edits, as >43,000 more edits by them this month. The impact of the total multiplier effect, of editors × edit-count, means that the fewer total editors are getting more done, as more edits by each remaining person. It appears that over 70% of all edits are made by the small 3% core group, of 3,500 (3%) among the 112,739 editors, with many reverting what the casual editors had done. In fact, it might be said that "78% of Wikipedia is written by 17% of the editors" (80/20 Rule) in 2012. More later. -Wikid77 (talk) 09:18/17:24, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

This data would be more useful if you controlled for AWB-meatbots. Gigs (talk) 15:53, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

• Many AWB edits are multiple improvements: It is difficult to discount any AWB-based edits as being unworthy of counting. I have seen numerous AWB-based edits which involved multiple changes to an article, with significant quality improvement. Likewise, I have seen many manual edits which changed only a minor word, and were a questionable use of an edit. As for controlling the influence on counts, I noticed that the automated bot-edits, always counted separately, have declined slightly during the past year. But, still, I am not convinced that removing, or separating, the AWB "meatbot" edits from the other user-edits would matter. Perhaps there should be data which counts 1-word or 2-word edits versus broader edits to articles. In cases such as this, cross-comparisons of typical editing patterns might help, such as analyzing AWB edits among several groups of 5,000 wp:Recent_changes to see if AWB-edit patterns are an unusual problem. Meanwhile, by whatever means people are editing, the total August-2012 edits have risen despite the 5% drop in casual editors during the past 12 months. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikid77 (talk • contribs) 17:24, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Automated bot edits are often improvements as well. It is foolish to ignore the effect of semi-automated and automated edits when analyzing editor activity. Cluebot NG makes about 5-15 edits per minute. If Cluebot NG didn't exist, editors would have to manually revert this vandalism, and that would boost your "core contributor" count by a huge amount. The same is true of AWB-bots. When an AWB user corrects the spelling in 100 articles a day, that's 100 small edits that casual editors won't do. The effect of these processes on editing patterns is profound. Gigs (talk) 17:56, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
    • A couple of things to note. AWB can be used as a bot but mostly its used in semi manual mode. Although it does help to greatly increase the speed and efficiency of ones edits it also is just one of many tools, like twinkle, Hotcat and a variety of others whose edits are counted. I would also note that I question the data somewhat because Rich Farmbrough did a lot of edits himself prior to being banned from automation so I find it hard to believe that there was only a modest drop. I doubt that the remaining editors did enough edits to offset that loss and certainly counting bot edits we are missing out on a lot. With that said, the corps Wikipedia site seems to be operating progressively slower with each new release so that IMO is at least part of the reason for the decline. Also, the tabs tend to jump around a lot on slow connections so editors not familiar with the site get turned off rather quickly by have to play chase the wild button around. I have had multiple potential editors tell me that they got fed up when trying to make an edit because the buttons kept jumping and instead of hitting the talk or edit button they hit something else. A variety of other factors also impacts things but I'll leave it there for now. Kumioko (talk) 00:01, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
      • I have been mulling over proposing the idea of changing the autoconfirm rules on a very temporary basis. The sorts of articles on common topics that often wind up semi-protected due to school vandalism are often the same kind of articles a new or casual editor may want to edit. If we dropped the edit number requirement for autoconfirm for non-tor newly registered accounts temporarily (maybe even just 24 hours), we could see what happens in terms of vandalism vs new constructive editors. Gigs (talk) 03:07, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
        • Speaking of autoconfirm, I think we should end it. I wanted to pull together a coherent post , but since you brought it up, most of the legitimate requests are so someone can upload a logo, which we offer to do for them. Many of the rest are trying to upload something subject to copyright, and many of the others disappear when a simple question is asked. Too much work goes into the process relative to the gain. Better yet, leave it, just deep-six the request board, and on the rare occasion a legitimate need exists an admin can grant it. Oops, responded too quickly. I'm talking about Confirmed, not auto-confirmed. But if you get your proposal enacted, even more reason to eliminate Confirmed--SPhilbrick(Talk) 19:59, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Should Wikipedia have a warning?

Jimbo, I tried to understand why more than 14% of the most active editors, the editors who made tens of thousands edits were either blocked or have not been editing for at least 9 months. For my research I used the first 2000 users listed here. I'll let them speak for themselves:

• "There are quite a few mentally ill people who edit Wikipedia. I have been stalked and harassed by more than one person here during my tenure, and while almost all of those folks were eventually indef blocked, after awhile, it gets to be too much. It is emotionally and physically draining."
• "I'm just not interested any longer."
• "There is a fatal flaw in the system. Vandals, trolls and malactors are given respect, whereas those who are here to actually create an encyclopedia, and to do meaningful work, are slapped in the face and not given the support needed to do the work they need to do.There is no reason to continue here."
• "Wikipedia was a great idea, but the structure dooms it - it has hit an ethical problem no-one who started it ever anticipated, and its decision making processes, and lack of responsibility, make it impossible for the community to fix it. Everyone with sense knows the problem, but minorities, and people who like to "play" wikipedia unimpeded, make proper radical solutions impossible. The one man who could make a difference isn't willing to try. So, I've had enough." (This comment was removed by the editor later)
• I'm sure the Wikimedia Foundation has unique issues with volunteer coordination and communication due to it's large scope, the novelty of an internet medium and it's need to remove itself from "publishing" the works it helps to create. Nevertheless, I've always felt a bit uncomfortable with the way the Foundation distances itself and the lack of good communication, especially in serious cases such as this recent leak. That someone had to "break ranks" for the committee to get any concrete information on the various issues at play seriously concerns me and we're still almost completely in the dark about what the Foundation is doing and how it plans to handle security going forward - so it's not just the community who's being left out here. (This user was an arbitrator)
• "Ending my involvement with this farce." (I think this user is editing under a new name now).
• "Contrary to part of the statement in the recent "decline" of my request, it would seem to me that encouraging Wikipedia (administrators) to "demonstrate" its own "fairness" and "justice" in the application of its own process would be a most "productive" contribution to this encyclopedia and would encourage other editors of my caliber to contribute to it. As the "process" stands, that is highly unlikely." (This user is an academic)

There are also some disturbing comments like this one:

• "I can't think clear anymore. I am very confused and upset and depressed over this. I do not know what to do to get unbanned. I was not banned and then this happens. I can't take this. My feelings are hurt by all these mean and hateful people. Please tell them to unlock me."

The next comment was made by an active editor but I consider it to be disturbing too:

• "As I also said several years ago, long-term Wikipedia editing is likely to result in noticeable health effects, of which a significant portion of mine I attribute to Wikipedia. "

Shouldn't WMF add some kind of warning to this page? I mean, adding a warning about dangers associated with editing Wikipedia, something similar to cigarette warnings, something like this: "Editing Wikipedia is addictive, and could impact your health and your reputation". Thanks.--31.193.133.208 (talk) 19:34, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

That's an awful lot of research to put in only to come up with such a ridiculous conclusion. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:42, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

• Beeblebrox, my conclusion is not ridiculous,but if you want to talk about something really ridiculous why don't we talk about creating and adding the most ridiculous category I have ever seen to some editors user pages? I mean "Category:Formerly banned users " . Maybe some users left the project because of this? --

109.123.127.243 (talk) 20:21, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I find it quite interesting that this IP is so quick in pulling out all this stuff from two years ago. I had quite forgotten about this myself as it was simply a good faith attempt at a way to tell everyone that a user had served their time and was no longer banned. The community didn't like the idea, so I dropped it. the idea that it drove anyone off is laughable, but it is interesting that this was your go-to response to my remarks... Beeblebrox (talk) 22:00, 20 September 2012 (UTC)>

Hi, Mattisse!! :) - Alison ^❤ 19:46, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

• If the best CU on Wikipedia says I am Mattisse, it ought to be the case, or maybe not :)--109.123.127.243 (talk) 20:21, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

• LOL - I'm semi-retired these days and wasn't speaking as a CU, just where you made the this page link, it returns back to User talk:Mattisse. Gotta wonder why :) - Alison ^❤ 21:20, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

• You are? Should I add you to my list too, Alison?--109.123.100.144 (talk) 23:27, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
• LOL! --Conti|✉ 21:32, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry but nine comments out of 2000? The odds are twice as high that you will be on a plane with a drunken pilot (and even higher for Jimbo, given his travel schedule). Get the airlines to post a warning on their planes, and after that we can talk. --SPhilbrick(Talk) 19:53, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

• I looked only at a very few comments. The most important part of my research was trying to understand why more than 14% of the most active editors are either blocked or left the project. If my conclusion is unsatisfactory let's work on a better one.--109.123.127.243 (talk) 20:21, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

The question is worth asking, but the implication is that this number is unacceptably high. It is hard to know what level would be considered acceptable, as there are few comparable projects. --SPhilbrick(Talk) 20:32, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

The numbers speak for themselves. The odds you will be on a plane with a drunken pilot are only 0.85%, but there are 14% of the most active editors who are out of editing Wikipedia. Some Wikipedians are concerned about retaining new editors, but how about retaining editors who made tens of thousands of edits?--78.129.190.116 (talk) 21:13, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

• Should we have a warning? Probably not. But the fact remains that Wikipedia is a very high-stress environment. Burnout is common and is oftentimes only resolved when the exasperated editor leaves the project, whether forcefully or of his own will. That a banned editor posted this concern shouldn't be taken into account, as it is valid. What, if anything, the community can do to reduce the high stress level needs discussing. ThemFromSpace 21:40, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

  Wikipedia is not only a very high-stress environment. Wikipedia is addictive. Editors should be warned about this. --109.123.115.221 (talk) 00:21, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Most of the time it's editors who should have left months ago who don't recognize they're not interested until they completely flame out. I don't read too much into those sorts of comments because they're so typical of the bluster of someone who's finally realized they just don't enjoy it anymore and want to blame something besides their own declining interest. Why people feel the need to do that is somewhat beyond me, as if I ever leave for lack of interest I'd just say as much, but you'd have to ask them why that is. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:42, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

The very premise of this thread is flawed as it conflates two separate issues. The blocking of a long-term users and retirements by long term users are two very different issues except in the odd case such as we see here where a user "retires" by deliberately getting blocked.

Some of the comments in this rather oddball collection of mostly older remarks were made by users who were obviously not able to work in a collaborative environment, it just took a while for that to become clear. Some we're made by experienced good faith users who just burned out. That is in no way unique to Wikipedia, people come and go from all sorts of projects both on the web and in RL all the time. It's no different than realizing your best player isn't on the softball team this year because he's now into mountain climbing or something instead. An 86% retention rate is actually pretty damn good if you ask me. Better than I wold have thought actually. If one focussed only on the drama it is easy to get a very wrong impression of this project. Although there is constant drama, all day long, every day of the year, it usually only involves a tiny fraction of the total number of users active at that time. Admins who deal with drama do tend to have a higher burnout rate than those who deal with things like uncontroversial page moves, blocking obvious spammers, or other "slam dunk" types of admin work. It's the same in any organization, the persons who do the high stress work end to come and go faster than those who do equally necessary but less stressful work. And some (I include myself among them) are able to let the stress slide off them like water off a duck's back most of the time. It's all a matter of persepctive. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:54, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

"Beeblebrox" I learned about this administror with a funny user name from FOXNEWS: "But Wikipedia administrator “Beeblebrox” agreed with Wales. “Roger is acting as a paid consultant at the same time as he is on the Board of WMUK,” he posted in response to the co-founder’s comments. “That's their problem but I share Jimbo's feelings on the matter, he needs to resign one post or the other.” I think the best way to get familiar with an admin is to look at his/her RFA, and I did. I followed the links from this oppose vote, and now I know that even you are not able to let the stress slide off you like water off a duck's.--109.123.100.144 (talk) 23:27, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Shock news - Wikipedia administrator discovered to be human, and possibly even fallible. Whatever next? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:18, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Oh, shit, who blew our cover? Find that mole!!!! The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:43, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Does anyone still seriously believe that this IP is posting here out of a legitimate desire to rectify a real problem and not just to stir shit up? (Although I must say I am somehwat disgusted at being quoted by Fox News. I need a bath now. ) Beeblebrox (talk) 05:32, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Life needs a warning: When ever your out there doing good things, someone will come along and at least try to make it stressful for you, if not stop you altogether. See "No good deed goes unpunished" Richard-of-Earth (talk) 09:22, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Accountability and paid editing

One of the Nolan principles is accountability. Essentially, those holding office "must submit themselves to whatever scrutiny is appropriate to their office". Scrutiny sometimes involves asking 'difficult' questions. Accountability means not calling the scrutineers 'trolls', questioning their motives, or bullying them in any way. I am not seeing accountability in the the behaviour of those involved in the current 'paid editing' affair at WMUK. All the scrutiny, as far as I can see, has been polite and well-mannered. Yet at least one person (see below), an editor in good standing has been complained of bullying and hate mail, and being 'cold shouldered'. Another editor in good standing has been called a 'troll'. See the links below.

• 06:58, 19 September 2012 Peddle your bullshit somewhere else.
• Craig Franklin cfranklin at wikimedia.org.au Wed Sep 19 13:33:37 UTC 2012 "Rather than Roger resigning, I think it would be better if you just stopped trolling this list."
• David Gerard dgerard at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 14:46:01 UTC 2012 "a haven of trolls, nutters and stalkers whose mission is to stir shit wherever feasible" (describing a forum where these concerns about conflict of interest are aired).
• Thomas Morton morton.thomas at googlemail.com Wed Sep 19 15:01:54 UTC 2012 "I'm concerned about transparency and openness - we are not as transparent as we could be (based on our ideals) so I tend to push in those areas. It has made me unpopular; I get an appreciable amount of hate mail and anonymous threats.
• steve virgin steve at mediafocusuk.com Thu Sep 20 17:02:54 UTC 2012 Grow up you moron
• steve virgin steve at mediafocusuk.com Thu Sep 20 15:22:57 UTC 2012 "Trolls just like thrill of tearing things down they live for it"

I would like your view on this, and would welcome the view of any other Wikipedians who have a concern that problems in the Wikipedia world cannot be raised without fear of bullying and ad hominem attacks. Thank you. Hestiaea (talk) 06:19, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Except that there has been no paid editing so the claims in that respect are completely false. Frankly, some of the accusations that have been made (notably by Andreas Kolbe aka JN466) seem to be quite defamatory; if his victims wanted to sue him for libel I think they'd have a strong case. There is a big difference between raising well-founded concerns and making gratuitous accusations of corruption as part of an ongoing campaign against WMUK. It's remarkable that some of those who make the loudest noise about BLP issues have no compunctions about trashing their fellow editors in ways that would have likely got them blocked if they'd behaved that way toward biographical subjects. These are real people and real reputations that are being damaged by the ongoing smear campaigns being run by Wikipediocracy members. Prioryman (talk) 06:50, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Prioryman, offering a reward, such as free air travel, as is being done here is paid editing. That, in itself, is not a problem. Hestiaea is right, the response from some of the individuals, such as calling Jayen a "moron" on the Wikien mailing list, has crossed the line. Also, I think you just made a legal threat. Cla68 (talk) 07:13, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Saying that I think others would have a case against him is hardly a threat from me, is it now? Grow up. I wouldn't call him a moron since he appears to have some degree of intelligence. It's not his intelligence that's the problem - nor yours - but the constant conspiracy theorising, attacks on others and unvarying assumptions of bad faith. He's rightly been called out for those traits. And I would point to the blatant hypocrisy of the concocted outcry on this issue; nobody objected when the British Museum offered prizes for writing featured articles on its collections, or to the very successful "Wikipedian in residence" programme pioneered by Wittylama. These are all tried and tested approaches which have resulted in numerous good articles, goodwill from institutions and raised public awareness of Wikipedia's value and work. As Victuallers has rightly pointed out, Gibraltarpedia has been heavily publicised and scrutinised at every stage of the way - nothing that it's doing is different from what has been done in past GLAM collaborations. This isn't just an attack on Gibraltarpedia, it's an attack on the entire GLAM programme. Frankly, after this, what institution is going to want to collaborate with Wikipedia in the future? But that's the point, isn't it, for those who want Wikipedia to fail. Prioryman (talk) 07:37, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

"there has been no paid editing" -- So, the editing was done by volunteers? Is the right, Prioryman? Did all these volunteers know they were being directed by a PR consultant who was making money off their hard work? Did all these volunteers really understand that the project was basically a PR campaign to pump up tourist revenue for a paying customer?

Honestly, Prioryman, WMUK is an insulated group with blinders on, immersed in groupthink, and spitting venom at anyone telling you the things you need to hear. --KlickitatGlacier (talk) 07:26, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

You're an obvious sockpuppet of a Wikipediocracy member (account created 15 August 2012). Would you mind telling us what your previous account was and what you were banned for? Prioryman (talk) 07:37, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Go ahead and evade my argument, Prioryman, it betrays you. --KlickitatGlacier (talk) 07:43, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Roth and Broyard for the last time (maybe)

It looks like Anatole Broyard's daughter, Bliss Broyard, has made a response to the whole situation, essentially calling Roth out. You can read about that here. I think her point #2 is especially poignant, because it's what a lot of us have been saying for the longest time. Silverseren^C 06:25, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Interesting. The poorly worded e-mail correspondence with Roth by "an administrator" has tended to obscure the fact that prior to September 2012, Roth had never commented publicly on this matter, and many reputable critics had assumed that the character was based on Broyard.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 07:44, 21 September 2012 (UTC)