Wikidata:Property proposal/commentator

commentator

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Person

   Not done

Description	the commentator or announcer of an event. Includes reporters, analysts, etc. denoted with subject has role (P2868).
Represents	announcer (Q1371925)
Data type	Item
Domain	item
Allowed values	subclass of (P279) pundit (Q1642960) or announcer (Q1371925)
Example 1	NBC coverage of swimming at the 2020 Summer Olympics (Q107718705)commentatorDan Hicks (Q5213677) NBC coverage of swimming at the 2020 Summer Olympics (Q107718705)commentatorRowdy Gaines (Q459259) NBC coverage of swimming at the 2020 Summer Olympics (Q107718705)commentatorMichele Tafoya (Q6836854)subject has role (P2868)reporter (Q42909) NBC coverage of swimming at the 2020 Summer Olympics (Q107718705)commentatorMichael Phelps (Q39562)nature of statement (P5102)partially (Q100349848)
Example 2	NBC coverage of athletics at the 2020 Summer Olympics (Q107718778)commentatorLeigh Diffey (Q16207168), Paul Swangard (Q107718325)P2868
Example 3	NBC coverage of basketball at the 2020 Summer Olympics (Q107718754) → Bob Fitzgerald (Q4932434), Kate Scott (Q107718363)
Source	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_commentator NBC commentators list for 2020 Olympic Games
Planned use	Document the commentators for the 2020 olympic games
See also	presenter (P371), cast member (P161), broadcast by (P3301), original broadcaster (P449)
Wikidata project	WikiProject Sports (Q8001410)

Motivation

I wanted to document the commentators/announcers for the Olympic Games after I came across this list.

The proposed usage of the property on the event itself probably isn't the best since there are many broadcasters from the many broadcasting agencies that are covering the Olympics, so more-specific linked items called "NBC coverage of swimming at the 2020 Olympic games" should probably be created.

In-general, this property is a important one for all broadcasted sporting events and other types of events.

MisterSynergy Thierry Caro Vanbasten_23 Malore Сидик из ПТУ Mathieu Kappler Lee Vilenski Erokhin Dandilero Blackcat Looniverse

Notified participants of WikiProject Sports

Lectrician1 (talk) 18:11, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

• It's an interesting proposition. Before I evaluate the cunning quality, I have one more question: What qualifications do you want to work with? Because it's not just NBC commentators who report the Olympic Games. On German television, the swimming competitions are commented on by Tom Bartels (Q1403174) (ARD (Q49653)) and Volker Grube (ZDF (Q48989)), among others. Experts such as Christian Keller (Q556094) (ZDF (Q48989)) are also involved in the competitions. How would you like to fit these different activities and TV channels into the qualifications? --Gymnicus (talk) 18:29, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

  @Gymnicus: I would make new items for each broadcasting agency called "<agency name> coverage of <event name>" and then link those items using broadcast by (P3301).

  For example (as I explained in the motivation), I would:

  1. Create an item called "NBC coverage of swimming at the 2020 Summer Olympics".
  2. Use the new "commentator" property on that item.
  3. Create a statement broadcast by (P3301) "NBC coverage of swimming at the 2020 Summer Olympics" on swimming at the 2020 Summer Olympics (Q39080758) and add all other broadcaster items to that property as well.

  -- Lectrician1 (talk) 18:42, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

  Then what is the difference from using presenter (P371)? Сидик из ПТУ (talk) 18:52, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

  The same situation in Russia where we have up to five commentators by event. Moreover, years later, someone can make a retrospective with a new commentary on the old video where the participant of the competition will be one of the commentators. My opinion is that property constraint (P2302) for this property should be

  ⟨ subject ⟩ property constraint (P2302) ⟨ subject type constraint (Q21503250)    ⟩
  class (P2308) ⟨ broadcasting program (Q11578774)    ⟩

  Сидик из ПТУ (talk) 18:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

•  Support I'm thinking about its possible uses in sports in general. For example "Trans7 coverage of 2021 MotoGP". So i strongly support it. But, how about its inverse property? I think we need that too. Rtnf (talk) 22:42, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

  A inverse property would not be appropriate. Some announcers cover tens to thousands of games in their careers. If we ever got around to documenting that many, we would have way too many statements the the announcer's item. I'm against inverse items in-general. Lectrician1 (talk) 21:52, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

  But most of commentators on my country dont have that many. It's pretty much equivalent to notable work (P800) Rtnf (talk) 04:21, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

@Gymnicus, Сидик из ПТУ: I've revised the examples with new items to document the commentators per-program. I've also basically made a new data model for documenting broadcasts.

You can browse these items and realize that they are linked to their event using main subject (P921). These events then link back to the broadcast item using broadcast by (P3301). These events are also linked to a master-broadcast item I created (NBC coverage of the 2020 Summer Olympics (Q107718731)) using part of (P361).

You might notice that this kind of disrupts the definition of broadcast by (P3301) as it is now used for individual broadcast programs and not just the general broadcaster themselves. Maybe in the future if this model is used more-widely, broadcast by (P3301) could be renamed to "broadcast".

Hope this helps and you'll support the property!

Lectrician1 (talk) 19:59, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm currently putting this proposal on hold for possible consideration of using cast member (P161) instead. --Lectrician1 (talk) 01:44, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

@Gymnicus, Сидик из ПТУ, Rtnf: Okay, I think I've decided to broaden the scope of use of cast member (P161) to include any type of broadcast program. That way we do not need this proposed property.

I have shown it's use for swimming and athletics (check them out!). Does this work?

I have also created a new property proposal broadcast of, to solve that definition/usage problem I mentioned about above.

--Lectrician1 (talk) 19:52, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

•  Oppose Use presenter (P371). Сидик из ПТУ (talk) 05:59, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
• @Lectrician1: Even if you don't want to implement it with this property now, I still find the property right. @Сидик из ПТУ: From my point of view, the propertypresenter (P371) cannot be used for this. In my opinion, there are differences between a moderator and a commentator. I'll try to explain it with two examples. One of the examples is from the field of sports and the other from the field of music.

1. When football is broadcast, there is usually reporting before the game, during the half-time break and after the game and this is moderated by a person, i.e. a moderator guides you through this reporting. The game itself is not moderated by this person, but is commented on by another person, so the commentator reports on the game.
2. The Eurovision Song Contest will be broadcast to many countries. The show itself is always led by one or more moderators on site. At least here in Germany we not only hear the moderators, but also a commentator who, unlike the moderators, speaks in German and not in English. The commentator not only translates what has been said, but also gives assessments of the songs. The actual moderators do not do the latter and they are certainly not allowed to do it.

As just described, there are significant differences between a moderator and a commenter. That is why I think it makes perfect sense if this property existed in order to make such a distinction more easily possible. --Gymnicus (talk) 13:23, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

@Gymnicus: Wait but why not use cast member (P161)? You didn't really explain that.

I say to use cast member because it makes the most sense when there are multiple roles that might be filled for a broadcast and the property easily fits in for any type of entertainment video program. --Lectrician1 (talk) 02:07, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

@Lectrician1: I have not spoken out against the property cast member (P161). You can take it, although I don't find it very suitable either. But I understand your thoughts behind it. Perhaps in the context of how you handle it in the data object NBC coverage of swimming at the 2020 Summer Olympics (Q107718705) it would be better to use the property significant person (P3342). --Gymnicus (talk) 08:39, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

• @Lectrician1, Gymnicus, Сидик из ПТУ, Rtnf:  Not done: there is no explicit consensus about the property. —MasterRus21thCentury (talk) 06:33, 21 April 2022 (UTC)