Wikidata:Requests for comment/Geocoordinates on people

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THIS RFC IS CLOSED. Please do NOT vote nor add comments.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Closed because the property proposal is closed without consensus. And coordinates for place of burial of dead people should not be used per opposition: create separate grave-items instead.--GZWDer (talk) 10:39, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, My bot is importing coordinates from Persian (fa) Wikipedia, and there is a problem. Persian Wikipedia's community has decided to use title coordinates (like geographical features) for dead people who has certain and constant place of burial (e.g. Alfred Nobel) because they think it's a valuable datum for the person (it determinants place of burial) specially when burial place is not notable enough to have separate article , though I opposed in the decision I think we need to import them in Wikidata because It's a valuable datum and you can use these coordinates for Wikivoyage (e.g. get a query and see who is buried your neighborhood) and you can exclude these information very easily and maybe some wikis decide as the same as fa.wp. What's you suggestion or stance? Best Amir (talk) 21:15, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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Would this work?

I don't think anybody would mind adding that information. --Tobias1984 (talk) 21:29, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

problem is adding the "someplace" so many people doesn't have any notable burial place to mention it in place of burial (P119) So what we want to do about it? Amir (talk) 21:50, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think this is a problem if there is no item. You could use "some value". If we have place of burial (P119). Why should there be a special qualifier? I think the value of place of burial (P119) should have the geocoordinates. --Sk!d (talk) 01:48, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If there really is no specific location item for place of burial (P119), just use the best item known such as Asia (Q48), worst case use Earth (Q2) as the item location, and then the coordinate location (P625) as a qualifier. Danrok (talk) 00:59, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This should be resolved by a query to place of burial's item's coordinates, not by placing the coordinates on the dead person. --Izno (talk) 21:52, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Read my replay to Tobias Amir (talk) 22:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I believe this fits the structural criterion. --Izno (talk) 23:12, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think we have to clarify this in here and ask people to tell It fits in the article 3 or not Amir (talk) 23:44, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I know at least that docu interpreted it in that fashion. I'm certainly not opposed to it. --Izno (talk) 15:57, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We could use
where the place of burial does not have an item Filceolaire (talk) 01:03, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If you wait for new report WD:Database reports/Constraint violations/P625. You'll have a very big listAmir (talk) 09:51, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Very simple solution: new property "coordinates of bural / координаты могилы". No need use complex data models where simple models work fine. — Ivan A. Krestinin (talk) 14:47, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Or we could infer the property as I said. The name of the location is enough information for us to understand the body's coordinate location. We should have a very, very good reason to duplicate information, and this I do not think is a very, very good reason. (That aside, this is hardly a complex data model....) --Izno (talk) 15:55, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Viktor Kosykh (Q4235835) <place of burial (P119)> Khovanskoye Cemetery (Q4498622) is important claim, but it is very general because square of Khovanskoye Cemetery (Q4498622) is 1.97 km². Creating separate item for every grave is possible solution too, but as I know it is impossible use in Wikipedia article information from non-linked directly item. And think: it is hard for human create just another item for every dead person. — Ivan A. Krestinin (talk) 16:19, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Is it important that we do capture the location of the exact gravestone though? That doesn't seem very important to me, personally... --Izno (talk) 23:08, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose that if they are dead, they aren't going anywhere soon... Hmm. --Izno (talk) 23:10, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"exact gravestone" I think It's a valuable datum for someoneAmir (talk) 13:06, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It is valuable information. Aude (talk) 10:02, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I started this Wikidata:Property_proposal/Person#coordinates of burial place (en) / координаты могилы (ru)/ مختصات محل دفن (fa) Amir (talk) 13:30, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I´d prefer the solution with *place of burial (P119) and *coordinate location (P625). There is no need to mark the coordinates of scatttered ashes, if it is a single tomb or we have no item for the cemetery, we could linkt it to Q173387 and put the qualifier coordinate location (P625).--Giftzwerg 88 (talk) 00:29, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There are some problems about this option: 1-For some people place of burial is not notable enough and/or It doesn't have any specific name. 2-Maybe someone is buried in a cemetery but cemeteries are very big generally and coordinate of the exact gravestone isn't just for the cemetery and It's not right to set it as a qualifier of the cemetery Amir (talk) 03:20, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For company headquarters, maybe either 1) put the coordinates as a qualifier of the location? e.g. headquarters location (for Airbus) = Toulouse, qualifier/coordinates = ... or 2) make an item for "Airbus headquarters" and then add the coordinates to that item. Same way could be done for burial location. Right now, my bot does it's best to avoid adding coordinates for items about persons (checking for enwiki categories like 1910 births, gnd type, etc.) and organizations. It's likely that my bot has made a few mistakes for organizations, less likely though possible for a person. It would be nice to have a way to be able to include coordinates for these type of items but agree it should be handled differently than for geographic feature items. Aude (talk) 09:58, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Another option could be to have specific properties, such as "burial location coordinates" and "headquarters location coordinates". Aude (talk) 09:59, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It is much more usable to use one general property. Otherwise we need "bilding location coordinates", "tree location coordinates", "bridge location coordinates", "river location coordinates", "church tower location coordinates", "church crypta coordinates", "church west entrance coordinates", "mountain peak location coordinates", "border location coordinates", "city location coordinates" etc. etc. etc. .... definitely it makes things more complicated. You can link coordinates to every unmovable item with just one property. The link establishes the connection between burial place and coordinates, ist is not neccessary to have different colours and shades of coordinates. You should also have in mind, that there is also the possibility of queries ahead. A thing that is not developed now, but will be able to find connections between items e.g. all burrial places with coordinates within a certain range.--Giftzwerg 88 (talk) 11:45, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Can you give us a definition of unmovable item? (Q83232 is a city with a population of 18000 who have to be moved.) -- Lavallentalk(block) 11:59, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As you know even continents move, the earth moves. I mean all items that don´t change their locations normaly and changes in coordinates appear only under very special circumstances.--Giftzwerg 88 (talk) 13:25, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Then what about qualifiers for coordinates to be more specific? We could have birthplace coordinates? place of death, coordinates for place of burial? If we use just coordinates (p625) then need to distinguish these multiple things. I don't have strong preference for how we handle this. Aude (talk) 15:41, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Qualifiers are not more specific than a separate property. But it helps link coordinates to the place and not to the person. As you link place of burial (P119) to a person, you can link it to a cemetery. If you follow the link to the cemetery. The item of the cemetery can have unspecific coordinates that point to the center or to the entrance buliding. A usefull information that can be reused for every person burried on this cemetery. In addition you can add a qualifier to the P119 which marks the most specific coordinates of the grave. Is there any need to be more specific than that? I mean what is the additinal use of giving coordinates the additional name "coordinates of burial place". Qualifiers are specialy introduced to keep the numbers of properties small. In addition to that wihout any further information I´d use this property on the item of the cemetery to give it general coordinates and therefore it would just be a more specialised replacement for coordinates. I´d never link it to a person.--Giftzwerg 88 (talk) 16:02, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Aude: I started this Amir (talk) 03:20, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
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