Talk:Alternative rock

Artists of alternative rock

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Moved from User talk:TechnoSquirrel69/Archive 4 § Artists of alternative rock

 – TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 22:19, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

SEE article header:

"Alternative" refers to the genre's distinction from mainstream or commercial rock or pop music.

Despite claims made by sources, the music of Lorde and Billie Eilish does not reflect those sounds, and is both commercial and mainstream SentryHelios118 (talk) 17:46, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your message, SentryHelios118. For better or for worse, Wikipedia reflects the discussion of subjects in reliable sources. Editors' opinions of the subject don't have a place in articles, and your assertion that certain artists don't represent this genre are currently unsupported. If the claims made in those sources represent a significant deviation from what the majority of other reliable sources agree on, then I'd recommend that you start a discussion on the talk page of the article to form a consensus with other editors on whether the sources should be included or not. Let me know if you have any questions! —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 18:36, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Opinions have not had any place in the edits. My assertions are supported by the very nature of the claims. The only unsupported claims, in actuality, are those made by the sources.

The editing of the page will proceed as of now. SentryHelios118 (talk) 21:20, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Claims made in sources otherwise considered reliable are presumed to continue to be reliable until proven otherwise. Again, please start a discussion on the talk page if you feel there is a reason to reject these sources. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 22:05, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

@SentryHelios118: I see that you've reverted the article back to your preferred version again without discussion. I've moved the discussion from my talk page here so other editors can contribute to the conversation. Please note that you are at risk of violating the three-revert rule. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 22:34, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

I've added a warning over edit warring to SentryHelios118's talk page, as they do not appear to have taken on board the advice already given. I urge them to do so.--Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 12:48, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

I would encourage you to add the same warning to TechnoSquirrel69's talk page, as they have been engaged in this conflict as well.

In any case,

SEE article header:

"Alternative" refers to the genre's distinction from mainstream or commercial rock or pop music.

Despite claims made by sources, the music of Lorde and Billie Eilish does not reflect those sounds, and is both commercial and mainstream

This is no opinion, this is the nature of their music. SentryHelios118 (talk) 13:52, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

SentryHelios118 — for the third time — as much as you may continue to claim otherwise, what you're saying is only your opinion until you support your argument with reliable sources. Unless you do so, it is unlikely your changes will be implemented. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 13:58, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

—for the thirds time — as much as you may continue to claim otherwise, saying that the music of Billie Eilish and Lorde is not alternative is a fact, not an opinion. Thus, the opinion of mainstream music journalists must be taken cautiously. I will proceed to make more edits when I feel the time is right. I am, however, open to your further discussion SentryHelios118(talk) 23:35, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

It's quite straightforward. The opinion of reliable sources are worth something. The opinion of a Wikipedia editor is worth nothing. So basing your argument about what the article says on "I disagree and I know better" is a non-starter that will get you nowhere. Categorisation by music genre is always open to interpretation, but you need to support your position with the opinion of good, authoritative sources. Without these, there is really nothing to discuss here.--Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 14:19, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

As stated, this is not my opinion. This is fact. Lorde and Billie Eilish are not alternative music. Furthermore, your assertion that “categorisation by music genre is always open to interpretation” is baseless. If The Independent labeled Scritti Politti’s music as grindcore, that would not make Scritti Politti’s music grindcore. We must not look to music journalists as high authority, because that is how we end up in arguments like this.

I will proceed to make more edits when I feel the time is right. I am, however, open to your further discussion SentryHelios118 (talk) 23:33, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

"We must not look to music journalists as high authority, because that is how we end up in arguments like this." - No, that is how Wikipedia works and how we resolve arguments like this. If you don't understand that, you do not understand how Wikipedia works.

"I will proceed to make more edits when I feel the time is right." - Feel free, but if you approach articles thinking "I know better than the sources", you will find them being reverted. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 12:45, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

I understand how Wikipedia works. But when a source makes false or unreliable claims, such as the one in question, it lowers the credibility of that source. SentryHelios118 (talk) 12:54, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

The source is clear as day: Lorde's music is alternative pop. There's nothing you can do to change the source. And the Independent is a perfectly useful WP:SECONDARY source. You have no leverage in this argument. Binksternet (talk) 14:50, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

I am aware of what the source says, and I am not interested in changing the source. It is still a baseless claim, regardless of who makes it. Lorde does not belong on the Wikipedia page for alternative rock SentryHelios118 (talk) 23:28, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

I have issued a further warning on SentryHelios118's talk page regarding their continued edit warring on this. A block is likely. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 10:59, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't see a good outcome for SentryHelios118 if they keep removing reliably sourced relevant text because they don't like it. Binksternet (talk) 13:50, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Alternative pop

Alternative Pop has the right to have its article when do you say? CPR FRANCE (talk) 12:26, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

It's now described in this section, but might be expanded into a stand-alone article. Jarble (talk) 01:41, 23 March 2024 (UTC)