Talk:Charles Curtis

Move

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The result of the debate was don't move. —Nightstallion (?) 12:36, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I created Charles Curtis (musician) and hence {{move|Charles Curtis (politician)}} Sciolistparty 21:39, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Why can't the cellist Charles Curtis be listed? Hyacinth 04:25, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

• Oppose. I added a link at the top of the article that poins to the musician. This article should stay at its current title. If several meanings of this name exist, feel free to create a dis-ambiguation page titled Charles Curtis (disambiguation), but please leave this article at its current title. Georgia guy 21:52, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mustache

"As of 2007, Curtis was the last U.S. Vice President or President to wear a beard or mustache—in his case, a mustache—while in office."

The inclusion of this bizarrely wonderful fact is the kind of thing that makes Wikipedia so great. ¶ 23:14, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Sadly the fact was removed on 7/15/11 for want of a citation. Even though it's probably true, I was unable to find a citation either, as no one seems to carefully document vice presidents the way they do presidents. RIP bizarrely wonderful fact. --Iritscen (talk) 19:02, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

I readded it Waterdrinker11 (talk) 14:31, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

"Brent" ?

Hi. I found several sources on internet saying his middle name was "Brent" (Charles Brent Curtis). Is it it true? Is it false? Švitrigaila (talk) 16:11, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be on to something. You could just add it and see whether anyone objects; if nobody does, then there's no need to hunt for a reliable source. If someone objects, then you'll have to do a bit of research. -- Zsero (talk) 18:28, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Neither The Political Graveyard nor his Congressional Biography speak about this middle name, but several web sites give that name. It's not new since I knew this name far before I met Wikipedia many years ago. But I still wonder what the source is. Švitrigaila (talk) 12:31, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

His gravestone doesn't have it either. So I wonder where it comes from? -- Zsero (talk) 04:05, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

This is one encyclopaedic mention of Brent. One more.--Paul Pieniezny (talk) 20:43, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Political career

I added more to the lede to point to the importance and success of his political career - being elected as Minority Whip and Majority Leader in the Senate meant that he was an excellent leader, could move legislation and build coalitions, and could garner support. --Parkwells (talk) 13:11, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Reared by Maternal or Paternal grandparents?

The lede (Introductory summary paragraph) says paternal (non-Indian); the early life section says maternal (Kaw). Shakescene (talk) 21:39, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Was his US Citizenship enabled by the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 or was he acknowledged to be a citizen based on birth location alone? 69.174.171.59 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:19, 1 February 2012 (UTC).

He was considered as US Citizen through his paternal (non-native) origin, so he was born as US citizen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.164.157.159 (talk) 11:29, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Low Importance?

An article about a former Majority Leader of the Senate and Vice President of the United States is rated of "low importance" by the Wikiproject U.S. Congress group. That seems odd. Smallchief (talk) 09:50, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Tribal ancestry not as clear as stated

First, I will be referring to these sources:

• Reference A at teachinghistory.org
• Reference B at vpcharlescurtis.net
• Reference C at vpcharlescurtis.net

Our article currently says in the lead section:

He was enrolled in the Kaw tribe and his maternal ancestry was three-quarters Native American: Kaw, Osage and Potawatomi.

But the only citation points to Reference A, which does not say anything about his mother's specific tribal ancestry.

When I noticed this, I did a web search for other articles about him, and found that most of them did not support the claim. Neither the Osage nor the Potawatomi were mentioned, except on one page, which is Reference B. This says:

Charles Curtis... was one-eighth each of Kansa Indian, of Osage Indian, of Potawatomi Indian, including 1/8th French... If he was asked about it, he would tell you that he was one-eighth Indian, but 100% Republican. At the time, he thought he himself was only 1/8th Indian, but with further genealogy studies, that statement was really incorrect, as shown his heritage above.

That would explain the conflict between sources, and I think it should be mentioned in our article if it is correct. But is it correct? Later, our article specifically states:

His mother, Ellen Papin (also spelled Pappan), was one-fourth French, one-fourth Kaw, one-fourth Osage, and one-fourth Potawatomi.

There is no citation at all for this, but a few sentences later, the paragraph cites Reference C, which does make this claim.

Now References B and C are from the same site, which is apparently the only site about Curtis that is authorized by his family, so you would expect it to be correct. But Reference C gives his ancestry in detail, and while the format is hard to follow, it does not seem to support the statement.

Specifically, unless I'm misreading something, it says the following:

• Curtis's mother was Ellen Pappan (born 1870).
  • Ellen Pappan's parents were Julie Gonville (born 1811) and Louis Pappan (born 1815).
    • Julie Gonville's parents were Louis Gonville (born 1804? [sic]) and Wy-He-See (born about 1798). Louis Gonville is described as "from Canada... mother is Potawatomie".
      • Wy-He-See was the daughter of White Plume and Me-Na. White Plume was a Kansa, aka Kaw; Me-Na was an Osage, related to Chief White Hair.

If this is correct it does make one person's ancestry be 1/4 French (Canadian), 1/4 Kaw, 1/4 Osage, and 1/4 Potawatomi — but that person is Julie Gonville, not Ellan Pappan.

However, when the page talks about Julie Gonville's marriage, it says that she (not Wy-He-See) was 1/2 Kansa, 1/2 Osage; and it says that Louis Pappan (not Louis Gonville) was 1/2 French, 1/2 Potawatomie. And it doesn't give any specifics of Louis Pappan's ancestry, or not that I can understand, anyway.

If the statement that Louis Pappan was 1/2 French, 1/2 Potawatomie is correct (and not transferred by mistake from Louis Gonville), that would make Curtis 3/16 each French and Potawatomi, 1/16 each Kaw/Kansa and Osage. Or if, for example, Pappan was pure-blood French, Curtis would then be 5/16 French and 1/16 each Kaw/Kansa, Osage, and Potawatomi.

In short, I consider it obvious References B and C, being self-contradictory, are an unreliable source and I'm flagging the specific claims of ancestry as dubious. I hope someone can find a reliable print source that goes into these details so the correct facts can be stated. --50.100.193.30 (talk) 11:04, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Curtis's mother was Native; his father was European-American. Pappan is a very prominent Osage and Kaw family. I found other citations and took out the mentions of specific blood quanta. Yuchitown (talk) 00:23, 21 June 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown

Indian Charlie?

I recently heard Curtis referred to as Indian Charlie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EzACqIJWww&feature=youtu.be. I don't have any independent evidence, though. That term on Wikipedia only links to a racehorse. Chipotle (talk) 21:26, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Father's ancestry

"His father was of British origins, being half-English, a quarter Scottish and half-Welsh." So his father was 125%? That's impressive. Anyone know the real story here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:2C4:780:11D0:A486:8AA1:C7A2:40DF (talk) 00:36, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

I'm also interested in the strange math here. It is suspect on the face of it. comment added by jorjones.

First "person of color" to be vice president of the US?

If he is 3/8 native American , that would imply that he was the first POC VP. Can we add language to the lede?TuffStuffMcG (talk) 21:14, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Ancestry mathematics

Charles Curtis had roughly ​3⁄8 Native American ancestry and ​5⁄8 European American.

I propose to remove this very specific but unsourced assertion. I tried to find a source, but was unsuccessful. Matuko (talk) 08:20, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Lead image

I’d like to propose this as the new lead image. I think the current one looks rather dark and personally not very aesthetically pleasing in the infobox.

Lead image proposed

Kind regards, Robertus Pius (Talk • Contribs) 03:07, 19 September 2024 (UTC)