Talk:Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present)

Estimate from (74) states 111,000 not 1.1 million refuges

In the current version article, where it states “ while in Lebanon, 1.2 million individuals have been displaced”, the article referenced has a much smaller estimate. 77.137.28.218 (talk) 16:02, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

I logged in just to request an edit, it now says 1.4M Hadassah112 (talk) 14:31, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

This now even says 1.4 M without source support. Requesting another edit. Barthelmes (talk) 17:34, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to restrict scope of this article

In the above discussion, I think there seems to be consensus that Oct 2023 - Sep 2024 marked a low-level phase of the conflict, and that no one called this low-level phase as "war", but now we've entered a much more intense phase of the conflict. So I propose that the scope of this article ends sometime in Sep 2024 and details about events in Oct 2024 go into 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon or a different article, but not this one. Pinging (Personisinsterest—The Great Mule of Eupatoria—Dilbaggg—ElijahPepe—estar8806—Mr rnddude—Lightspecs).VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 17:39, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, the ongoing RM wants a move to I Hez war. If that goes through, then it will be like the I Hamas set up (war + invasion) which, yea, does invite duplication. Selfstudier (talk) 18:01, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

@Selfstudier It sounds like you oppose the RM, its best you make your opinions known in the RM. Suppose the RM doesn't go through - would you agree with the above proposal I made? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 19:59, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I would just set about making the invasion article the main going forward and take whatever from here as background. Selfstudier (talk) 21:32, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I support this proposal, there is a distinct phase where it was a conflict and one where it became a war The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 03:54, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I too support this proposal, in-line with my !vote in the move proposal. Mr rnddude (talk) 10:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I note that merging the content into 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon would minimize the events that preceded the invasion; namely, the pager and walkie-talkie explosions, Israel's strikes against Lebanon (חיצי הצפון), and Hassan Nasrallah's assassination. Nasrallah stated that the pager explosions were "a declaration of war", and I'm inclined to believe that began the war against Hezbollah. However, it did not begin the invasion, which officially started on October 1 after brief incursions into Lebanon. I would normally support merging into the invasion article, but there is a degree of separation between the invasion and the war that suggests it is possible to maintain both concurrently, with information about the invasion being minimized in the article about the war. The invasion article, for instance, covers information about the "United States' waning influence" and "Personal motivations of Netanyahu" that is exclusive to the invasion. Thomas Friedman, for one, wrote an article about the anniversary of the October 7 attacks that contains mentions to the "Hamas-Hezbollah-Iran-Israel war"—as much as that framing is comically yet intentionally inaccurate—but omits information about Israel's invasion, which is largely not relevant to his points. As much as I question why an analysis section is relevant in an article about a highly contentious topic, if editors seek to include that information, they would be limited to articles specifically about the incursion. In addition, there is an impact to the aforementioned precursory events through Lebanese displacement, which is an article at Lebanese displacement during the Israel–Hezbollah conflict. An estimated 90,000 people left Lebanon following September 23, when חיצי הצפון (or Northern Arrows) began. In an article about the war, which presumably began on September 17, I would expect to see information about this displacement. Merging the content into the invasion article conflicts with that expectation. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 01:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@ElijahPepe what if merged that content into the invasion article, but rescoped that article to start mid-Sep (and moved it to a more appropriate name)? Alternatively, we can merge the info to a different article about the war.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 16:44, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Options

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The above RM was unsuccessful, meaning this article won't be moved to "war", leaving us with following options that I've tried to illustrate in a table.

Option	Oct 8, 2023 — Sep 16, 2024	Sep 16, 2024 — Sep 30, 2024	Oct 1, 2024 — present	Notes
1a	Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present)	2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon
1b	Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present)	2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon —> 2024 Lebanon war "Third Lebanon war"		Same as option 1a, but requires a RM at 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon
2	Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present)		2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon
3	Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present)	"September 2024 Lebanon escalation"	2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon	A new article is created to cover the events from Sep 16—Sep 30.
4	Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present)	2024 Lebanon war		Create a new parent article, possibly called "Third Lebanon war" that covers events Sep 16—present.
			2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon

I prefer options 1a, 1b or 2 as I think they are the simplest. I oppose option 4, because it requires maintaining two articles in parallel (almost a WP:CFORK). Pinging ( Selfstudier—The Great Mule of Eupatoria—ElijahPepe—Mr rnddude) VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 17:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

2 articles is better than 3, and the invasion was 1 October, so Option 2 for me. Selfstudier (talk) 17:39, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

2. Having 1a or 1b would mean the infobox about the invasion of Lebanon would mismatch with article contents. Bitspectator ⛩️ 17:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I strongly opposed using "Third Lebanon war", which matches Israel's terminology about the second and first wars. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 20:32, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

2. I agree with Bitspectator that there would be a mismatch between the conflict and invasion articles with 1a and 1b and additionally that 1b leans too much to favouring a specific perspective on the conflict. Mr rnddude (talk) 22:19, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I’d lean towards 1b but with the title “2024 Lebanon war” The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 17:47, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

@Bitspectator@ElijahPepe@Mr rnddude@Selfstudier, what do you think of The Great Mule of Eupatoria's proposal? I've changed the title in the table accordingly.

Alternatively, @The Great Mule of Eupatoria would you also be ok with #2? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 22:59, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I oppose it. The invasion is notable, as is the war, but it didn't begin with the pager attacks. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 23:01, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm OK with invasion atm, this can cover "war" for now. Selfstudier (talk) 08:22, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose per Elijah. Bitspectator ⛩️ 17:28, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

@The Great Mule of Eupatoria are you ok with option #2? Are there any strong arguments opposed to it? Otherwise it seems we have WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS for that.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 15:31, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I’m more inclined to option 1b, but I have no arguments against option 2 and still think it would be a good option The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 15:50, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

We seem to have consensus for option#2 above. This means, I'll go ahead and implement:

• change the ending date in the infobox and lead to Sep 30, 2024, making it clear that the end of this conflict marked the beginning of the 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon.
• Move this article to Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–2024).
• Leave a notice at the end of this talk page, urging users to put post-Oct 1 events at 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon.

VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 12:34, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Hezbollah casualties

There is an account on X that tracks publicly available information on the funerals of Hezbollah fighters killed. They put the number of confirmed dead Hezbollah fighters at 1103. The account is qalaatM. The information appears reliable with accompanying posters of killed fighters uploaded daily. I think we should include this information. 2A13:54C1:F000:90DC:36B7:D436:CD25:4DD1 (talk) 02:21, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

It's been showing as 449 for a long time and no one is updating it, it's truly incredible I guess the editors don't take it seriously 24.133.152.195 (talk) 15:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 October 2024

After review of the source displayed via [71] I believe the 1.4M displacement tally is incorrect and requires further research and inspection. Mentioned paragraph below

"In northern Israel, the ongoing conflict has forced approximately 96,000 individuals to leave their homes,[70][65] while in Lebanon, over 1.4 million individuals have been displaced,[71]" Hadassah112 (talk) 14:37, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Hezbollah rocket attack today

A Hezbollah rocket attack in northern Israel killed 7 people https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce8yjr3zyz8o.amp Mauzer's random BS (talk) 18:37, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

This should go in 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 01:11, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Seriously? “Conflict”?

What’s next? 1,000,000 deaths will perhaps lead us to changing the article’s name to “2024 small scale fighting in lebanon”? Why did my move request get reverted right after i added it 78.182.138.236 (talk) 22:06, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 November 2024

Source [76] nowhere supports the number of 1.4 Mio. displaced but 110,099 in Lebanon.

In northern Israel, the ongoing conflict has forced approximately 96,000 individuals to leave their homes,[75][70] while in Lebanon, over 1.4 million individuals have been displaced,[76]

Should at least be:

In northern Israel, the ongoing conflict has forced approximately 96,000 individuals to leave their homes,[75][70] while in Lebanon, over 110,000 individuals have been displaced,[76]

Further, official sources talk about 102'000 displaced people in Lebanon: https://www.intersos.org/en/conflict-in-south-lebanon/ thereby referring to IOM UN Displacement Tracking Matrix https://dtm.iom.int/reports/lebanon-mobility-snapshot-round-41-08-08-2024 Barthelmes (talk) 17:43, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@Barthelmes, the 1.4 million figure also appears in a number of sources, for example here. I'm not sure what to make of it. Let's mention both figures for now. Alaexis_¿question? 21:54, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Actually the latest IOM report says that there are 842k IDPs [1], so the discrepancy is not so large. Alaexis_¿question? 21:57, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Even 550'000 people is an enormous discrepancy. But this is irrelevant to guidelines of correct quotation. A source is quoted and should be quoted correctly. At the time it was retrieved the number was 102'000 displaced. It is discrediting wikipedia as source to randomly assign quotes to numbers. If current quote is kept, it should be 102 thousand. If new quote is used, it has to state time of retrieval and quote the accurate number as of time of retrieval. The 1.4 mio is made up or comes from completely other source. Barthelmes (talk) 13:44, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposal regarding the name of the conflict

Consider mentioning the name Israel has given to its military operation against Hezbollah, מבצע חצי הצפון (Operation Arrows of the North) GeopoliticalSphygmomanometry (talk) 16:39, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Post scriptum, I see that it actually has been mentioned in the body of the article. However, I recommend mentioning it in the opening paragraph as is commonly done with other wars. GeopoliticalSphygmomanometry (talk) 16:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Was that the name of Israel's operation starting October 2023, or was it regarding the September 2024 actions? If its the latter, then it should not be mentioned in the opening paragraph as it relates only to the last two weeks of this conflict.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 18:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Drone on kindergarten

https://mobile.mako.co.il/news-military/036814c74a0e1910/Article-b3c096edd6f1391026.htm?sCh=31750a2610f26110&pId=173113802&main_article=2&click_id=SRV42wLVqg 2.55.190.158 (talk) 11:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 November 2024

• What I think should be changed:

In the info-box (and anywhere else if exists)

−

8 October 2023 – 30 September 2024

+

8 October 2023 – ongoing

• Why it should be changed:

The 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon represents an escalation of the conflict, it does not imply that the conflict has ended.

• References supporting the possible change:

[2] Guy Haddad 1 (talk) 20:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I see that this was fixed (present instead of ongoing), so feel free to delete this topic. Guy Haddad 1 (talk) 08:16, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

@Guy Haddad 1 please see this discussion[3].VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 09:42, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

@Vice regent Thank you, I've missed this discussion. Guy Haddad 1 (talk) 10:00, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

References

Rocket kindergarten

In a barrage of 25 rockets into the Western Galilee, there was a direct hit to the fence of a kindergarten in Acre. There were no children in the kindergarten at the time the volley was fired, at 4:19 p.m., but a lot of damage was caused to the place - and also to dozens of apartments in the surrounding buildings, which were damaged by the heavy blast. Five people lined up in panic. https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/hy4icysfye#autoplay 2.55.169.239 (talk) 18:23, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Unifil rocket

reckets on them https://www.kan.org.il/content/kan-news/defense/827484/ 2A0D:6FC0:98C:9800:31AC:28E3:A8F5:1636 (talk) 16:47, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Hezbollah's war crimes should come first

As Hezbollah not only was the first to violate and escalate this conflict and the first to commit war crimes, but also commits them in higher quantity and explicitly admitted them, it should come BEFORE israeli war crimes.

This will contribute to improving the impartiality of wikipedia, which had reached rock bottom over time, due to rising and blatant political bias, especially regarding israel-palestine, etc. Hen.machiavelli (talk) 12:45, 23 November 2024 (UTC)