Talk:Jeffrey Lundgren

14 July 2005

There are, at a minimum, terminology issues. We need to be clear on Latter Day Saint versus Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints versus Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (now Community of Christ, and abbreviated RLDS and not any other way); also Kirtland (not Kirkland). The group's move to Kirtland and discovery of an original meetinghouse is not clear at all to me -- are we referring to the Kirtland Temple, or some other edifice? And be it noted that Joseph Smith did not start preaching there, but in upstate New York (the church being organized in the Peter Whitmer home IIRC). Some of these things I know how to fix and simply cannot address right now; with others, I can't make out what the authors are trying to say, so I don't know where to begin. The best place to start, most likely, would be a good research library. I'll try and get back to this sometime (don't hold your breath). eritain 21:43, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Allegedly??

Since Jeffrey and wife and some others were already found guilty and sentenced, why use the term "allegedly"? Are there still others who've yet to be tried? Anyhow, I'm just curious about the terminology, that's all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jlujan69 (talk • contribs) 3 March 2006

If Jeffrey impregnated his girlfriend in 1969, and the baby was born in December 1970, that has to be the longest gestation period I've ever heard of.

The bodies were not found "one day later", they weren't found for 9 months, by which time the group had moved to WV and then Lundgren and his family to California. The police did come to the farm the day after the murders but they left without suspecting anything.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Braver (talk • contribs) 6 April 2006

Not all of the accomplices received sentences of 100+ years. Three women got 7-25 year sentences by pleading to 5 counts of conspiracy. Check the State of Ohio Department of Corrections web site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by brokerbob51 (talk • contribs) 24 Aug 2006

References needed

This article badly needs citations for the majority of the material presented. The article had no references at all until today, when I added five to AP's sentencing report of 8/2006. I corrected the sentencing error noted above, and I changed "no more than 12" (unsourced) to "less than 20" for the sect's size -- Lundgren killed five people, and 13 were arrested, so that's well over 12.

I also removed unsourced material (amid all the other unsourced material) about Lundgren turning down a 1981 priesthood offer from the RLDS because he felt the RLDS were too lenient towards women -- because the AP report stated he'd been discharged by the RLDS in 1987. It is possible both are true, somehow, but what I left was the AP info, uncontradicted. In time, the link to the AP report will go dead, at which point the reference will need to be altered to show it as a print resource rather than a webpage. -- Lisasmall 21:43, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I added a good reference although it isn't the most up to date one. There are a couple of minor conflicts some of which may be just omitted from my source. The claim that he considered it a sin for the Avery's to live apart may be false. I don't think he wanted them with him in his house unless he could get something out of them. Also he wasn't a Serial Killer, he was a Mass Murderer. His Murderers happened all on the same day. Serial Killers do their murders over a longer period of time. Zacherystaylor (talk) 18:47, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Not dead yet, date of death added prematurely

His execution has been pulled back a week, so he is not dead and probably wont die on the 24th. Who ever wrote the date of death and rewrote the article as if he was dead should have at the very least have waited anyway until he was actually dead !! --84.153.48.209 17:29, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

AP Confirms his execution[1]DamianFinol 17:36, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Conflicting info

In the childhood section it says he left the RLDS when he reached adulthood, later it says he became a lay minister of RLDS and left in 1987 (well into adulthood). If course he strictly did leave when he was an adult, saying he left when he "attained adulthood" implies that he left as a young adult. Brentt 19:22, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Ambiguous Lines

I quote (under 'The Murders'): "The Averys' 15-year-old daughter, Trina, was shot twice in the head. The first shot missed, but the second killed her instantly."

Was she actually shot twice in the head or did a shot miss and the second shot killed her? Or were in fact, three shots fired with one missing, one injuring and one killing? Or did a shot miss, the next shot kill and the next shot hit a corpse? You get what I mean anyway.... I don't know how to edit this because I don't know the facts. Might want to clear that up a bit though. FeedTheGoat 11:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

major mess up

While trying to add an updated image of Lundgren, I accidently deleted the image of him already in the article. I apologize. I'm still trying to figure out how to add the new picture.Jlujan69 23:49, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Cult Box

The cult box needs to be indented to the right, I don't know how to do this. Probably an easy fix. John Reaves 20:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Latter-day Saint

I removed the link to the list of Latter-day Saints. It's misleading. That category would apply to adherents of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not the Re-organized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and especially not to those who remove themselves or are dismissed.

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 17:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

File:Jeffrey Lundgren.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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'Prophet' section

the "timing" of this section is...screwy. the paragraph starting with "On October 10, 1988,..." seems to, basically, start the story over. it talks about lundgren discussing moving to Kirtland, when he's already there. one thing that might make this even more confusing, is the last sentence/para. of the previous section, which says lundgren was dismissed as a "lay minister" by the RLDS in 1987. i THINK it was that in '87, he was relieved of the volunteer duties he had at the local temple of the RLDS in Kirtland. later, in 1988, he was "dismissed" ("expelled"?) from the full/formal RLDS group/organization. (not sure of the proper wording of these things). but he was already IN kirtland, or just outside of it, and he had "left" the local temple/church in 1987--not late 1988, as claimed in the 'Prophet' section. he was ALREADY leading his own religious group/sect/cult well before October 1988.

well, there are other issues with this article, anyway, so maybe no one really cares. notably, the "ambiguous lines" about the murders, raised by FeedTheGoat has not been addressed (from 2006), as well as much of the info still here being unsourced. if it is mostly coming from the 2 books listed in the references, that should be made clear. (and why is one of the books listed twice in the references?)

removing ALL the info about what happened to the others who were charged certainly cleared up the issue of it being unsourced and incorrect (from brokerbob51, 2006), but it leaves gaping holes in the story. what happened to EVERYONE involved seems an important piece. unless there's a separate article on...the cult? i don't think there is, and if there is, it's not linked to from this article.

there are also a few punctuation issues, but WP, from what i've been able to gather over a few weeks of 'research,' has decided not to have actual standards for some basic punctuation needs, so i've stopped trying to correct articles to make them....at least look more intelligently composed, i guess.

one article i found (and read before coming here), is from the Chicago Tribune. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1990-01-07/news/9001020419_1_reorganized-church-church-of-jesus-christ-day-saints/2 . don't know if that might help in any way.

and the link to the Crime Library (external links) doesn't appear to be working any more.Colbey84 (talk) 02:17, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Attaching Lundgred to Church of Latter Day Saints is incorrect.

as per this link:

https://murderpedia.org/male.L/l1/lundgren-jeffrey-don.htm

"Lundgren and about two dozen followers had broken away from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" this is repeated by 4 credible news sources through the link

the following should be edited the Wiki post

....Lundgren led a Latter Day Saint movement-based cult in Kirtland where he and several of his followers.....

To the correct statement of

Lundgren led a cult in Kirtland where he and several of his followers

He separated himself from the church then formed his own cult

in addition, All references to him being a leader in the church should be removed, he was not. once again he separated himself from the Church

I made an effort to correct the post but was met with an edit war and the offender ignored proper documentation and the changes. Please edit post haste. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elkrivermr (talk • contribs) 02:03, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Murderpedia is a user generated site, much like this one and is therefore inappropriate for sourcing here. Please see our policies on reliable sources. --AdamF in MO (talk) 05:35, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Links to the following reliable sources are listed on the site, dismissal on site name instead of content.

The Plain Dealer

cleveland.com The Plain Dealer is the major newspaper of Cleveland, Ohio, United States. According to an analysis of circulation data published in March 2013, the newspaper was among the top 25 newspapers for both daily and Sunday circulation in the United States.

Lundgren got what he deserved

After cult killer's execution, no one claims body

By Maggi Martin - Cleveland Plain Dealer

October 25, 2006

Lucasville, Ohio -- Jeffrey Lundgren, the self-professed prophet who killed five people in what he said was a sacrifice demanded by a higher power, died by lethal injection Tuesday in a death demanded by the state. Lundgren walked the 17 steps to the death chamber without the well- worn Bible that he used to control his cult, which formed after he broke from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Sa

Jeffrey Lundgren executed

Reuters News, https://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/lundgren1050.htm

Lundgren and about two dozen followers had broken away from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, now called the Community of Christ, a small church that splintered from the mainstream Mormon church. His group believed doomsday was near. Prosecutors said Lundgren killed the Avery family both because of a message he felt he got from God and because he saw the family as disloyal for not pooling their finances into a common church fund.

additional sources cited in original link https://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/lundgren1050.htm

elkrivermr(talk) 08:28, 13 April 2020 (cst)

Time to correct the post and ban https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ElSnakeoBwb for starting an edit war

• The statement that ....Lundgren led a Latter Day Saint movement-based cult in Kirtland where he and several of his followers..... is factually correct.

It simply states that Lungren was the leader of a cult that was based on the teachings of the Latter Day Saint (LDS).

The sentence does not say that the LDS is a cult, nor does it say that he was a leader in the LDS.

This is corroborated through the references already given in this article (and coincidently also given by the murderpedia reference above)

This can also be verified by reading the actual caselaw https://cite.case.law/f3d/440/754/#p759 this was a petition by Jeffrey Lundgren to the United States Court of Appeals, Sixth Circuit. An excerpt from that case under section 1 "Facts as Recited by the Ohio Supreme Court" reads: "William Russell, a religion professor at an RLDS college, testified that Lund-gren knew scripture exceptionally well, especially the Book of Mormon, and followed the chiastic method of scripture interpretation, which involves searching text for recurring patterns. However, Lundgren did not understand the Bible’s historical context and tended to concentrate on this esoteric method. Lundgren generally fit within the traditions of the RLDS faith in that he described visions, direct spiritual experiences, and God speaking directly to prophets."

The fact that he was excommunicated by the RLDS Church, and formed a small religious group based on its teachings, does not change the fact that he was the leader of a small cult that was based on the teachings of the (R)LDS, henceforth I think the contested statement is correct.

ElSnakeoBwb (talk) 14:57, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Incorrect: ElSnakeoBwb

By your own post the cult was based on the book of mormon not the RLDS, "William Russell, a religion professor at an RLDS college, testified that Lund-gren knew scripture exceptionally well, especially the Book of Mormon, and followed the chiastic method of scripture interpretation, which involves searching text for recurring patterns."

The category foot notes list the following: "Latter Day Saint leaders, American Latter Day Saint leaders, Members of the clergy convicted of murder? so your statement of ":The sentence does not say that the LDS is a cult, nor does it say that he was a leader in the LDS." is incorrect, the link list them and connects them.

Edits should be made, ElSnakeoBwb should be banned permanently for instigating an edit war — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elkrivermr (talk • contribs) 15:31, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Guys - the type of sourcing you are looking for is reliable, independent and secondary. Case law, and the Clark County prosecutor's office are primary sources. If the Plain Dealer is a reliable newspaper, that looks like the sort of source to use for this - what do they say about it?

FWIW, nobody is going to get permanently banned for a one-off edit war - that would normally result in a short block. Calling for people you're in dispute with to get blocked or banned isn't really a good look. It would also be really helpful if you each read WP:THREAD, and started signing your posts. GirthSummit _(blether) 15:36, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Lundgren got what he deserved

After cult killer's execution, no one claims body

By Maggi Martin - Cleveland Plain Dealer

October 25, 2006

Lucasville, Ohio -- Jeffrey Lundgren, the self-professed prophet who killed five people in what he said was a sacrifice demanded by a higher power, died by lethal injection Tuesday in a death demanded by the state. Lundgren walked the 17 steps to the death chamber without the well- worn Bible that he used to control his cult, which formed after he broke from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Sa

Jeffrey Lundgren executed

Reuters News, https://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/lundgren1050.htm

Lundgren and about two dozen followers had broken away from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, now called the Community of Christ, a small church that splintered from the mainstream Mormon church. His group believed doomsday was near. Prosecutors said Lundgren killed the Avery family both because of a message he felt he got from God and because he saw the family as disloyal for not pooling their finances into a common church fund.

additional sources cited in original link https://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/lundgren1050.htm

elkrivermr(talk) 08:28, 13 April 2020 (cst)

Threats of banning were made by ElSnakeoBwb on my user talk page when his edit war was instigated:

<<copy and paste start>> Warning icon Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to vandalize pages by deliberately introducing incorrect information, as you did at Jeffrey Lundgren, you may be blocked from editing.

As stated before, and corroborated by the references provided in this article, Your edits are factually incorrect, and I have to assume are done intentionally. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ElSnakeoBwb (talk • contribs) 15:57, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Stop icon You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you vandalize Wikipedia by deliberately introducing incorrect information, as you did at Jeffrey Lundgren.

You haven't provided any evidence for your claims, and your edits conflict with references in this article — Preceding unsigned comment added by ElSnakeoBwb (talk • contribs) 17:09, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

This is the source for the changes made:

https://murderpedia.org/male.L/l1/lundgren-jeffrey-don.htm

"Lundgren and about two dozen followers had broken away from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,"

changes were appropriate and correct, cease the edit war immediately

Notice Information icon There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Elkrivermr reported by ElSnakeoBwb. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:13, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Once again, this is the source for the changes made:

https://murderpedia.org/male.L/l1/lundgren-jeffrey-don.htm

"Lundgren and about two dozen followers had broken away from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,"

changes were appropriate and correct, cease the edit war immediately <<end copy and paste>>

Note that I documented all changes, same links as submitted here, that were reverted by ElSnakeoBwb with the claim of "no documentation".

Elkrivermr (talk) 16:52, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Elkrivermr, ElSnakeoBwb have you read what people have been telling you? Murderpedia is not reliable - you can't use it to support any assertion. Clarkprosecutor is primary - it could potentially be used with caution, but a secondary source would be better. The best source I'm seeing above is the Cleveland Plain Dealer - assuming that the text above is correctly quoted from that source, and that it's a respected newspaper and not a tabloid, it would support an assertion that he split away from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - is that what is under dispute?

The assertion that he split of RLDS is not in dispute (As both Me and Elkrivermr, see that as factual), but Elkrivermr contests that Lundgren led a Latter Day Saint movement-based cult ElSnakeoBwb (talk) 15:06, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Just FYI, a ban and a block are two different things. I'm an administrator, and so could technically block either of your accounts, but a ban has to come from the community. I'm telling you that there isn't a thing called a permanent block, but we can perform indefinite blocks - but we don't do that for one-off edit wars. Edit war blocks tend to start out small, and get longer when someone refuses to (or cannot) learn. Now, stop arguing about this citing inappropriate sources, and start discussing what the content should be based on reliable, secondary sources.

And please, both of you, read WP:THREAD, and WP:INDENT. Trying to wade through this discussion is making my eyes bleed. GirthSummit _(blether) 17:26, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

• In an effort to continue this conversation in a more structured fashion, I will try and present the points of contentions ElSnakeoBwb (talk) 15:06, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

I am happy to remove or cleanup up this section to get a more readable output ElSnakeoBwb (talk) 15:06, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

My suggestion to Elkrivermr is to contest each point individually and insert your rebuttal just after my reason for reverting the changes. Use : for proper indentation. ElSnakeoBwb (talk) 15:06, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

There are 3 things that Elkrivermr seem to contest on this page.

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
1.) Jeffrey_Lundgren religious affinity. Changes made by Elkrivermr Changes include : changing multiple instances of the word cult with atheist, removed references to LDS and changed them to atheist, changing LDS leader to Atheist leader Reason given for change : "he was a devout atheist before his death" Changelog https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeffrey_Lundgren&type=revision&diff=950407255&oldid=950406513 (change reverted by Me) https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeffrey_Lundgren&type=revision&diff=950409997&oldid=950407255 (change reverted by Me) https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeffrey_Lundgren&type=revision&diff=950406513&oldid=935403540 (change reverted by Me) https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeffrey_Lundgren&type=revision&diff=950516655&oldid=950516059 (change reverted by Me) Reason for reverting these changes: No supporting evidence given at all, article and references all contradict these changes. 2.) Removing reference to Latter Day Saint movement-based Changes made by Elkrivermr Changes include : changing "Lundgren led a Latter Day Saint movement-based cult in Kirtland" into "Lundgren led a cult in Kirtland" Reason given for change : "church of ladder days saints is not a cult, it is a recognized organized religion." (and eventually a link to https://murderpedia.org/male.L/l1/lundgren-jeffrey-don.htm) Changelog https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeffrey_Lundgren&type=revision&diff=950433012&oldid=950432284 (change reverted by Me) https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeffrey_Lundgren&type=revision&diff=950509095&oldid=950492441 (change reverted by another user) https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeffrey_Lundgren&type=revision&diff=950516059&oldid=950509214 (change reverted by Me) https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeffrey_Lundgren&type=revision&diff=950539375&oldid=950527850 (change reverted by Me) https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeffrey_Lundgren&type=revision&diff=950542973&oldid=950541651 (change reverted by kleuske to pre EW) Reason for reverting these changes: The statement "Lundgren led a Latter Day Saint movement-based cult in Kirtland" is in my opinion factually correct. Important here is the reference to Latter Day Saint movement. It's an Umbrella term for the collection of independent church groups that trace their origins to a Christian Restorationist movement founded by Joseph Smith in the late 1820s. which in turn is a Christian denomination Any religious teachings that has its origin in the movement started by Joseph Smith is part of the greater umbrella called the Latter Day Saint movement It's irrelevant if Jeffrey Lundgren continued independently from another LDS movement, or that he got excommunicated from another LDS movement, he still led a small cult whose teachings were ultimately based on the movement Joseph Smith founded. so he was part of the Latter Day Saint movement Evidence can be found in the supplied references on the page, and also by reading the actual caselaw https://cite.case.law/f3d/440/754/#p759 this was a petition by Jeffrey Lundgren to the United States Court of Appeals, Sixth Circuit. An excerpt from that case under section 1 "Facts as Recited by the Ohio Supreme Court" reads: "William Russell, a religion professor at an RLDS college, testified that Lund-gren knew scripture exceptionally well, especially the Book of Mormon, and followed the chiastic method of scripture interpretation, which involves searching text for recurring patterns. However, Lundgren did not understand the Bible’s historical context and tended to concentrate on this esoteric method. Lundgren generally fit within the traditions of the RLDS faith in that he described visions, direct spiritual experiences, and God speaking directly to prophets." So the reason given for the change (church of ladder days saints is not a cult, it is a recognized organized religion.) does not apply here, nobody is saying here that LDS is a cult. 3.) Removing categories refering to LDS Changes made by Elkrivermr Changes include : removing 2 categories Reason given for change : none Changelog https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeffrey_Lundgren&type=revision&diff=950432284&oldid=950411264 ( ultimately reverted by kleuske to pre EW) I see no reason why these 2 categories should be removed. He was the leader (size of his cult is irrelevant), and his cult was ultimately based on the teachings of Joseph Smith ElSnakeoBwb (talk) 15:06, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Suggestions for better formatting are welcomed as these are my first adventures in Wikipedia ElSnakeoBwb (talk) 15:06, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

I've collapsed the above under HAT tags, as it really makes a mess of the talk page. ElSnakeoBwb, it's considered bad form to insert comments inside another person's comments, so asking Elkrivermr to do so is a non-starter. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:13, 14 April 2020 (UTC)