Talk:Joe Calzaghe

Flagicons

User:Daicaregos and IP:86.175.252.153 are currently slow-edit warring over whether national or supranational flagicons are the same for the UK countries, Germany, and the US. My take on it? This bullshit is exactly the reason why we should ditch flagicons in boxing record tables altogether. It's pointless aesthetics and nothing else. MMA records explicitly discard them:

In the column Opponent, do not add flag icons before the name of the opponent. Per MOS:ICON, the consensus in Wikipedia is that flag icons should not be used to emphasize nationality without good reason. Flag icons for sportspeople should only be used in a sporting sense, that is, only when they are representing a national squad/team or for representative nationality in a competition, not legal nationality. There is no international sport governing body in MMA and MMA events are mainly handled by individual promotions. As such, MMA fighters do not represent their countries in a sporting sense, so flag icons do not serve an encyclopedic purpose. Flag icons should not be added only because they look good, because aesthetics are in the eye of the beholder ... In the column Location, do not add flag icons as they are redundant since the country must be mentioned in the text and their usage in such conditions is against Wikipedia:Manual of Style (icons), they increase server load and can be annoying for people with slow connections or text-based browsers.

.. as do most infoboxes, except in the case of amateur and Olympic level athletes, who do indeed represent clearly defined national entities—something which professionals do not. In the latter you often have boxers who enter the ring with multiple flags in tow, are born in one country, live in another country, hold dual citizenships with others, and "consider themselves" this or that. I say, get rid of the damn things. WikiProject MMA has it right. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 16:36, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Flag icons are a useful visual aid in tables. But only where the flags are either recognisable, or are used more than once. Sub-national flags should not be used, for that reason. In this case, the flags of the USA, the USA and Germany have been replaced by the flags of New York, Nevada and Lower Saxony respectively. Few people would recognise those flags and, as they have each been used just once, they serve no purpose as a visual aid. It would be a shame to remove what is a useful visual aid from the article just because of the activities of a single SPA trying to make a point (much better to just revert), but if editors think we must, then we must. Daicaregos (talk) 10:57, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

IMHO, we should be using sovereign state flags. GoodDay (talk) 15:08, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

I actually agree with the point the SPA is trying to make. It was User:Daicaregos who first began using national flags on this article, something with which I disagreed from the start, but refrained from saying anything because of their affinity for Wales-related articles—I didn't think it would go anywhere. However, even before that, I made a post at WikiProject Boxing regarding my gripe over flagicons in professional boxing record tables, but it went completely unnnoticed. I'm very tempted to bring it up again, but my recent RfC on standardising weight classes is also being ignored. Doesn't seem like boxing garners much discussion on WP, despite the amount of changes being made to articles by the hour. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 15:11, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

I would support deletion of the flags in professional boxing articles. Particularly if it would remove such disputes, like those on this article. GoodDay (talk) 15:15, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

I've put in a request at WP:SPORTS for further input. GoodDay (talk) 17:57, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Actually, it was re-instated in October. Prior to this edit (with no edit summary) last year, national flags had been shown continuously in the boxing record for many years, and certainly since before I began editing Wikipedia in 2008 (@Mac Dreamstate: Please check your facts and strike your accusation). My view is that in this case national flag icons provide a useful visual aid showing where the fights took place. If sovereign state flag icons are used, the table would show two fights in USA, one in Germany, one in Denmark and a wall of 42 Union Jacks – which makes it pointless. Daicaregos (talk) 09:15, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I recommend that the flags be deleted from the 'fight location' column. Do we really need so many flags overall? GoodDay (talk) 14:26, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Comment removed to GoodDay's Talkpage Daicaregos (talk) 16:31, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Delete all the flags? Yes, that would be an even better solution. GoodDay (talk) 16:24, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm not striking anything. There is no need to force a "visual aid" to readers, when the location of a fight can just as easily be rendered using text. If a reader needs a cute little flag to tell them Berlin is in Germany, or London in the UK, or that Wales happens to deserve its own flag even though they're part of the UK, but the state of New York does not get its own flag.. that's pandering to laziness and helping to create edit wars such as this; not helping to create an encyclopaedia. I'll say it again—the MMA records are perfect, and boxing records should emulate them as close as possible. As for flags representing fighters' nationalities, I've already stated my assertion that they are equally pointless "visual aids"—nothing but cute little icons that are even more pointless, when fighters are known to flip-flop between many nationalities and citizenships over the course of their career. They're fine for amateur sections (such as medals), but not for professionals. I agree with User:GoodDay, in that we should delete all the flags and give WP's boxing articles a fresh, streamlined, non-edit-war-inciting appearance. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:42, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

@Mac Dreamstate: I asked you to check your facts and strike your accusation. In your post above, you said “It was User:Daicaregos who first began using national flags on this article, something with which I disagreed from the start, but refrained from saying anything because of their affinity for Wales-related articles...” I have demonstrated that national flags were first used on this article since at least 2008. I have since discovered that the professional boxing record table was set up using national flags in 2007, before either of us began editing here. Hard to believe it was something with which you disagreed from the start, but as you stand by your statement I am prepared to believe this was something you noticed long before you began editing Wikipedia; perhaps under another username or as an IP. However, AGF does not extend to having to accept being lied about. I ask again, please check your facts and strike your accusation. Daicaregos (talk) 08:37, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Since this discussion has far-reaching implications, I suggest we move it to WikiProject Boxing for yet another RfC that will be ignored. I've yet to gain any kind of consensus for the issues I've tried to bring up there, but things are even less likely to be resolved from this lone article. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:53, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps having the Rfc (if you choose that route) at WP:SPORTS, would garner more interest. I'll leave it up to you. GoodDay (talk) 14:22, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• MOS:FLAG is quite clear, and it's pretty pathetic that MMA is one of the few sports where that important guideline is adhered to--important since flag icons add nothing but clutter and serve no purpose. Looking at this article, it's as bad as can be--we have stupid little flag icons for locations! "Stupid" is the right word for it; if you need a flag to figure out that Nevada is in the US you have been boxing too much (setting aside the fact that the location really is irrelevant: if, for instance, a boxer is 40-1-1, it hardly matters where the two 1's took place). Now, flags ought to be reserved, if we have to have them, for national representation, and obviously we don't have that in boxing unless it's at the Olympics. Here also, it doesn't matter who is from what country; it's a trivial bit of information. Imagine if we did this in articles on movies, where every actor gets a little flaggie. Or with bands. Or artist--put up a flag in front of the name of every Van Gogh painting to indicate in which country it's held. This kind of mess is why MOS:FLAG is as strict as it is: flaggies create visual clutter, they distract from what's really important. So please fix this soon. Drmies (talk) 03:58, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oh dear. That IP editor was sticking in flags for US states? Drmies (talk) 04:00, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I maintain the view that flag icons have a useful role as an aid to visual navigation. You say that flags 'ought' to be reserved. for national representation. Currently, however, they aren't. Athough I do accept the point that, as many fighters change their nationalities, having flags next to them is rather pointless and I would not oppose removing flags from the 'Opponent' column in the table. Could you point out (or better still, quote) where flag icons are prohibited for denoting locations in MOS:FLAG, as I couldn't see it. Thanks. Many, probably most, Wiki articles on boxers use flag icons alongside locations if they include a boxing record table. Only two articles on boxers are WP:FAs (our top-level peer review), only one of which includes a professional boxing record table: Susianna Kentikian. Here too, flag icons are used alongside locations. Within a couple seconds I was able to discover that all but one of her fights was in Germany by looking at the flag icons. Without them, it would have taken considerably longer, maybe 30 times longer, to discover the same information. To me, that makes them useful.Daicaregos (talk) 09:51, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Getting rid of flags for opponents sounds very good. That's the most contentious, edit-war-inciting part about them—what country a professional represents, amidst a career full of shifting allegiances (e.g. Arthur Abraham, Vic Darchinyan, Sakio Bika, Danny Garcia). I don't think most care so much about locational flags—if we could just state it clearly in an MoS (for boxing) as to why US states should not have a subnational icon, whilst UK countries do, then that'd give us something to which to refer if it becomes an issue again, like in this article. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 16:30, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

FWIW, MOS/Icons encourages usage of sovereign state flags, in situations like this. GoodDay (talk) 16:36, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

In a way. However, if you read past the first sentence, in summary that guideline says, 1: use sovereign state flags; 2: Wales, Scotland and England are exceptions in sporting contexts. Daicaregos (talk) 17:30, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

W/S/E are shown as primary examples of why sovereign states should be used. GoodDay (talk) 17:34, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

And yet they are exceptions in sporting contexts... and this is a sporting context. Daicaregos (talk) 17:58, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

We've different inteperatations on this matter, of course & I doubt will ever convince each other of the other's argument. Anyways, hopefully something will be worked out, to avoid (as much as possible) future edit-disputes over flag usage on professional boxer bios. GoodDay (talk) 18:02, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Are you saying this isn't a sporting context? Really? Daicaregos (talk) 18:07, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

We'll have to allow others to choose which way to read MOS/ICON. GoodDay (talk) 18:15, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

What on earth does that mean? It was a simple question; do you consider a Professional Boxing Record table to be a "sporting context" or not?

Where have I questioned whether it is or isn't a "sporting context"? As for MOS/ICON? You read it as though it exempts E/S/W. Where's I read MOS/ICON as giving E/S/W as primary examples for going with sovereign state flags. We both acknowledge that E/S/W is the core of these dispute & the likely reason why the IP made the changes it did. GoodDay (talk) 18:50, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Don't put words in my mouth. If that's how you read it, you aren't reading it all. And you still avoided answering the question. Daicaregos (talk) 18:59, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Boxing is a sport, therefore the Professional Boxing Record table is a "sporting context". GoodDay (talk) 19:04, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. Daicaregos (talk) 19:39, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I've requested further input from WP:BOXING. -- GoodDay (talk) 16:33, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

GoodLuck getting any response with that. ;-) Mac Dreamstate (talk) 16:36, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

If you can think of other places to attract input? that would be great. IMHO, if any editor(s) were to begin deleting flags across professional boxer articles? they'd risk being accused of disruption. It's best to get solid support, before making any changes across so many bio articles. GoodDay (talk) 17:40, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Mac Dreamstate is being a little pessimistic. I think WP:MOSICON is pretty clear for info boxes with the key being emphasizing nationality. There is no need to have a flag and text. When we move down to the record tables the only indication of nationality is the flag (there is no text) and it is interesting information. I like to know at a glance if a particular fighter has fought outside his own local area. I don't think WP:MOSICON addresses this at all. By the way whether is an ongoing discussion about other aspects of the record table ongoing at the Boxing project talk page.Peter Rehse (talk) 17:43, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

For professional boxers, which flags though? Should they be all sovereign state flags? or should exceptions be made for non-sovereign states - England, Scotland & Wales? GoodDay (talk) 17:47, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

My opinion is keep it to National but try telling that to the Scots.Peter Rehse (talk) 17:51, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

"National" has multiple meanings, however :) GoodDay (talk) 17:53, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Exactly - the issue is discussed in WP:MOSICON under flags. I find it pretty clear.Peter Rehse (talk) 17:54, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Which do you prefer, though? Usage of England, Scotland & Wales flags? or usage of the United Kingdom flag? GoodDay (talk) 17:56, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I would prefer the UK flag mainly to be avoid all the other problem flags.Peter Rehse (talk) 18:53, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

The biggest problem, I think, is consistency. If one article makes a distinction by saying a boxer is Welsh and uses corresponding national flags, whilst another says British (and if they happen to be English) and uses UK flags, it's asking for confusion and IP drive-by edits. Granted, WP has the self-identification thing, but that also goes against consistency. It should be stated somewhere in a brand new boxing MoS as to whether it's one or the other, or one and the other. Uninformed readers deserve better than to wonder why Lee Selby and Joe Calzaghe are Welsh—yet British as well—but Anthony Joshua or Frank Bruno are simply British. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 18:07, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

It's my observation aswell, that the IP changed American flags to American state flags, because he seen Welsh, English & Scottish flags instead of British flags. The IP must've have adopted the approach: Use sovereign state flags for all or use non-sovereign state flags for all. GoodDay (talk) 18:10, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

If you start using individual state flagicons, you'll end up using flags for Cardiff, Manchester and London etc. It's over the top. --Jimbo^[online] 18:16, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

We'd be better off deleting all flags. But, that's not for me to unilaterally decide :) GoodDay (talk) 18:33, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

There's certaintly inconsistency across British boxer bios. For example - Frank Bruno, Lennox Lewis, Ricky Hatton & Tyson Fury use British flags & not English, Welsh or Scottish, in their 'location' columns. GoodDay (talk) 19:31, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I often bring up other sports articles on WP for other comparison (even though some editors have shot down my doing so, but I don't give a damn). Observe snooker articles, in which UK national flagicons are indeed favoured. There's English, Scottish, Welsh and NI players. However, in professional boxing, fighters from all of those countries (NI is a whole other matter, as can be seen at Talk:Carl Frampton) fight under the British Boxing Board of Control. Granted, they may self-identify as whatever they wish and wear whatever flags on their trunks, but in an official capacity they still represent Great Britain/the UK. In snooker, separate flagicons are absolutely justified because England, Scotland and Wales issue their own licences for players. Meanwhile, BoxRec uses the British flag for locations—including Calzaghe. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:08, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I've even come across British boxing bios that use all flags (British, English, Welsh, Scottish) in the location column & atleast one that used American state flags & British flags. These inconsistencies, are all the more reason to delete the usage of all flags in professional boxer bios. GoodDay (talk) 20:14, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Delete the flags

I've been bold & removed all the flags from Calzaghe's professional record box. Please folks, look it over & consider how much misery is eliminated, before reverting. GoodDay (talk) 14:51, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

It really looks much better - I now think boxing should follow the MMA interpretation of WP:MOSICON Flags (ie. no Flags).Peter Rehse (talk) 14:59, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Love it! Look how clean and neutral it looks. Gorgeous. The George Groves article was nice and flag-free for almost a year, but recently some IP came along and added all those damn flags for fighters and locations. It's likely the same IP who almost instantly "flagged" the Nick Blackwell article, claiming that "Flagicons are used on every page." Ugh. The only thing I'd suggest here is to add the country suffix (Wales, U.S., England, etc.) following the city, because it may leave the non-geographically knowledgeable reader wondering where Cardiff or Newport is. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 15:07, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I'd personally would either use all sovereign states (USA, UK etc) or all non-sovereign states (Calif, Wales etc) for extra info on location. GoodDay (talk) 15:13, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

As in, "Millennium Stadium, Cardiff, UK"/"Millennium Stadium, Cardiff, Wales" instead of "Millennium Stadium, Cardiff, Wales, UK"? I quite like the latter, because it's the direct equivalent of "Barclays Center, New York City, New York, US". Both acknowledge the state/country, whilst also acknowledging the supranational entity. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 15:22, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

"Millennium Stadium, Cardiff, Wales, UK" is great, as it matches with "Barclays Center, New York City, New York, US" :) GoodDay (talk) 15:34, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support NO-flags. MOS:SPORTFLAGS you never use flags to indicate nationality. Flags are only used if someone is an official representative of a nation (i.e Olympics or national-teams). Alsee (talk) 00:16, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Most other new boxing articles contain flags, so why shouldn't Calzaghe's? Can there be a reversion of his flags? --Bartallen2 (talk) 06:13, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

No return of flags until a new RfC is started at WikiProject Boxing. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 18:00, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Location pros: Shall we add UK, USA, CAN etc?

For locations, the top level frame of reference is the country e.g. "Millennium Stadium, Cardiff, Wales" Daicaregos (talk) 16:52, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

We should go with 'sovereign state', instead of 'country'. The term country has proven in the past to be toxic, concerning the United Kingdom. GoodDay (talk) 17:04, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Tell all that to User:Slickmoves, who insisted on a few edits like this until he gave up. That's why I suggested "Wales, UK" as an all-encompassing term on par with "New York, US", even though the concept of Wales and US states aren't quite the same. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 17:08, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

The only way I could agree with using 'non-sovereign' pros (examples: California, Wales, Ontario without USA, UK, CAN), would be if all of a boxer's matches occured in one sovereign state. GoodDay (talk) 17:20, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Not sure I follow. The US' states and UK's counties/countries are slightly different cases to each other, but even more different to that of Canada's provinces or Germany's states. What's the problem in using "Austin, Texas, US" / "Cardiff, Wales, UK" / "Magdeburg, Saxony-Anhalt, Germany" / "Toronto, Ontario, Canada"? They work differently, but everything is well-indicated without listing things like the EU or entire continents. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 17:29, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I've no problems with them. I was just pointing out that exceptions could be made for a boxer who has fought only in one sovereign state during his/her career. But, it's nothing I'm going to fuss over :) GoodDay (talk) 17:35, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Move/copy all above discussion to Talk:WikiProject Boxing

I propose all the discussion be shunted there, so that other editors have a more well-defined location in which to view the progress and how everything came about. I can imagine a number of editors now thinking "Why are flagicons suddenly disappearing, and (after some digging around) why has it stemmed from Talk:Joe Calzaghe?" Therefore, User:GoodDay (and I, whenever I get around to zapping them from other articles) could provide a link to Talk:WikiProject Boxing in the stock edit summary each time. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:48, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Agree. Also we've related discusson to move there aswell, concerning pros in the location. GoodDay (talk) 20:50, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

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Welsh

2A00:23C4:9606:3600:1407:1F46:9A85:C8C3 Calzaghe identifies as Welsh, always has. In one of your edit summaries you claimed he "represented the United Kingdom throughout his professional boxing career". Not really sure how you came to that conclusion seeing as he wore the Welsh flag on his shorts and would hold the Welsh flag in the ring after his fights. Regardless, his official website has his nationality as Welsh. If you can provide a more reliable source than his own official website that states he does not identify as Welsh, then please, do share. Otherwise, leave the now sourced information as it is. – ².O.^Boxing 20:34, 9 June 2020 (UTC)