This article was nominated for deletion on 2 May 2019. The result of the discussion was keep.
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Latest comment: 4 years ago15 comments3 people in discussion
@Koavf: While I'm not aware of a formal policy on drag queens' pronouns in the MOS, standard practice at WikiProject RuPaul's Drag Race is to use out-of-drag pronouns when the subject is referred to by their legal name (such as in the Early life and Personal life sections) and to use drag pronouns when the subject is referred to by their drag name (such as in the Career section). Armadillopteryxtalk22:12, 18 June 2020 (UTC)Reply
Armadillopteryx, Rather than make it narrow about a type of performer/performance, it would be helpful to have some idea of if we do this with any biography. As far as I'm aware, we don't and it seems to contradict the MOS as I understand it. I don't need a policy as such but a guideline will do as well. Otherwise, it seems like this is contrary to the MOS and just confusing. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯22:14, 18 June 2020 (UTC)Reply
@Koavf:MOS:IDINFO and MOS:GENDERID address the precedence given to self-designation in terms of gender, though they do not explicitly handle stage personas. Most drag queens don't identify as male in drag and do not use male pronouns when referring to their drag identities. This, as I understand it, is the basis for the standard practice at WikiProject RuPaul's Drag Race. In higher quality articles there, efforts are also made to source the in- and out-of-drag pronoun preferences explicitly for this purpose. In an ideal world, all articles would contain such sourcing, but some fall through the cracks. If you want, we could seek further comments at the WikiProject page. Armadillopteryxtalk22:21, 18 June 2020 (UTC)Reply
Armadillopteryx, That is exactly what I would appeal to, tho: Guy A does not become a woman when dressing as Persona B, nor does the person who is the subject of this article think that he is a woman, feel like a woman, identify as a woman, etc. He is a man who plays a character. Just like how Darryl Dawkins wasn't from the planet Lovetron or The Undertaker isn't an undead zombie. E.g. at Gorillaz, we don't list the band members as being Noodles and 2-D but Jamie Hewlett and Del Tha Funk Homo Sapien. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯22:27, 18 June 2020 (UTC)Reply
@Koavf: Well, not necessarily; in fact, not all drag queens identify as men even out of drag. For example, Peppermint is a trans female drag queen, who uses feminine pronouns both in and out of drag. And Aja is a non-binary drag queen that uses non-binary pronouns (i.e. singular they) both in and out of drag. Sasha Velour has no pronoun preference out of drag but explicitly wants to be called she in drag. Handling gender in BLPs, especially of LGBT+ people, has to be done with a lot of care (and sourcing for preferences). If you look at any of the reliable sources in this or other drag queen articles, you'll notice that virtually none of them refer to any of these performers as "he", so there's also the precedent of accurately presenting what is found in RS. Armadillopteryxtalk22:33, 18 June 2020 (UTC)Reply
Armadillopteryx, Yes, to be clear, I was particularly referring to the subject of this article who in his instance is a man, identifies as a man, etc. But this is a good example: If Peppermint had some persona that's "Mr. Mint", would we say, "Mr. Mint debuted in 2020 and he was really cool" if the actual person who is the subject of the article is a transgender female? Or if Lady Gaga dresses up like a man onstage for kicks, will we use "he" knowing that the actual person is not a "he"? Identity-based MOS is what I was tacitly referencing before so that we don't call a woman "he", etc. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯22:42, 18 June 2020 (UTC)Reply
Koavf, If a trans woman was notable for being a drag king, then I assume yes, we'd go with male pronouns when describing the persona and female pronouns when describing the person out of drag. ---Another Believer(Talk)22:49, 18 June 2020 (UTC)Reply
Koavf, I agree with Amardillpteryx: West = she, Levitt = he, otherwise this article is inconsistent with many of the other articles about drag queens I've seen. I'm not opposed to this being discussed with a wider audience elsewhere, but until then, please don't change pronouns again. ---Another Believer(Talk)22:44, 18 June 2020 (UTC)Reply
Another Believer, I figured and I think you are correct that while there is value in discussing this particular instance, there are very clear implications across the encyclopedia. I also agree that just changing one article is not wise. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯22:57, 18 June 2020 (UTC)Reply
Koavf, Sure, if you do start a discussion elsewhere, please let me/us know, or even drop a note at WikiProject RuPaul's Drag Race. We work hard to keep articles consistent, but I understand that's just one project covering some notable drag queens. Happy to continue this on whatever appropriate MoS page or wherever. ---Another Believer(Talk)23:01, 18 June 2020 (UTC)Reply
