Talk:Sandra Kleinová

Discussion concerning this article

A discussion that may affect the name or title of this article is ongoing here. Please voice any opinions or concerns on that page. After the discussion concludes, this article may be moved to a different title, in accordance with Wikipedia's Naming Conventions. Thank you. Tennis expert (talk) 19:14, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. Defaults to no move. JPG-GR (talk) 06:01, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The name of this article should be changed to "Sandra Kleinova" because that is the name used on the English-language websites of the official governing bodies of tennis, which are the Women's Tennis Association and the International Tennis Federation. That also is the name used on the English-language website of Fed Cup. The evidence for naming this article "Sandra Kleinova" is overwhelmingly supported by current English-language Wikipedia policy (WP:UE) and English-language websites around the world. See, e.g., (1) "Fellow Spaniard Conchita Martinez, the 10th seed, also had it easy against Czech Sandra Kleinova, winning 6-1, 6-1." on the BBC website; (2) "No. 10 Conchita Martinez of Spain crushed Sandra Kleinova of the Czech Republic, 6-1, 6-1" on the New York Times website; (3) "Brie Rippner of Chico, Calif.., sprang a 6-1, 6-4 surprise on No. 5 Sandra Kleinova from the Czech Republic" on the Central Washington University (U.S.) website, based on a report from the Seattle Post-Intelligencer; (4) "The other Czech woman left in the competition is Sandra Kleinova." on the website of Radio Praha; (5) "Sixth seed Elena Dementieva has fallen at the first hurdle at Wimbledon today in a 6-4 1-6 6-4 defeat to Sandra Kleinova, of the Czech Republic." on the IrelandOn-Line website; (6) "In addition, No. 3 Jana Novotna ... cruised to a 6-2, 6-2, first-round victory over Sandra Kleinova." on the website of the International Herald Tribune; and (7) "Cara Black (Zim) bt Sandra Kleinova (Czech) 6-2, 6-3" on The Hindu's website. There are many other examples. Tennis expert (talk) 23:21, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

• (Oppose) You're kidding, right? Read here. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 00:10, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm not. I wouldn't have spent 90 minutes putting together this request if I were. Tennis expert (talk) 00:14, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose: less than eight-week old community consensus at Wikipedia:Requested moves/Tennis clearly applies and opposes this move - that discussion was desgined to avoid this discussion being revisited over and over again over hundreds of pages. See Talk:Nicole Vaidišová for background. Knepflerle (talk) 00:16, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

See WP:UE and your own position (linked in the discussion page of the Nicole Vaidisova article) that the naming of articles should be determined article-by-article. In any event, this article was not included at Wikipedia:Requested moves/Tennis. Tennis expert (talk) 00:18, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

"your own position (linked in the discussion page of the Nicole Vaidisova article) that the naming of articles should be determined article-by-article" - I've explained to you already there why that is a misrepresentation of my view. It should not be difficult to not make the misrepresentation again. The way you wanted WP:UE implemented was what was discussed, and then rejected. Knepflerle (talk) 00:26, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Then please educate me about what this means. Tennis expert (talk) 00:38, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Everything you need to know about how the community wants to implement WP:UE in this context is contained in the 308kb of Wikipedia:Requested moves/Tennis. The executive summary is given by the second line in the pink box. Knepflerle (talk) 00:47, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Circular reasoning at best. As I have said and explained already, this particular article was not part of that discussion, and, in any event, that en bloc discussion was contrary to the plain wording of WP:UE. Tennis expert (talk) 00:50, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Not agreeing with the community doesn't change the fact that you asked the question of the community already, and it said no. There's nothing here that the community hasn't already heard from you, considered and rejected within the last eight weeks. Knepflerle (talk) 01:05, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I asked no such thing. I requested the move of 50+ tennis biographies based on WP:UE and verifiable, reliable sources for each biography, which varied from biography to biography, as you can plainly see by visiting the relevant discussion pages. People got mixed up about the request when someone placed all my requests under one section header for reading convenience, and then this error was made worse when an administrator made the additional error of closing all those requests en bloc. And aside from all that, this article (Sandra Kleinova) never was part of that discussion. Therefore, the community has not spoken about it. To say otherwise would be to ignore the plain dictates of WP:UE and read into the previous discussion that diacritics should always be used, regardless of what verifiable, reliable English-language sources say for particular articles. Tennis expert (talk) 01:25, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Really? That's a change of tune, because you were more than happy to stretch that remit. Your own edit log is an accurate record and paints a very different picture of how you actually interpreted the requested move at the time. "Per consensus" you moved all the ones listed and also these articles none of which were included at the RM! (amongst many others). You honestly expect us now to believe that you did not want the decision applied more generally than those 50 article? Your actions then speak far louder than your words now. Knepflerle (talk) 11:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Do you intentionally misrepresent facts or is it just unfortunate carelessness? Those moves were done in accordance with a consensus arrived at through a general discussion, which was then overruled unilaterally by a certain administrator through mass reversions and threats of administrative action. I then proposed the moves one-by-one through WP:RM, as I have already said. Tennis expert (talk) 23:08, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The nomenclature is determined article-by-article only in case there is a compelling reason the pre-existing consensus (or both of them) shouldn't apply. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 00:20, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

The pre-existing consensus is to apply WP:UE article-by-article, which is what I am doing here and will do in the future. If that's not satisfactory, maybe a change to WP:UE should be discussed (there). Tennis expert (talk) 00:23, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

What an esoteric interpretation of WP:UE. The community guidelines are there for a reason. You may have spent 90 minutes compiling a move request (I could spend as much time gathering about as valid sources for moving United States to Estados Unidos), the community - of hundreds of users - has spent years slowly evolving the community guidelines. If you feel diacritics should be dropped from tennis players' names, take it up at WP:TENNIS, and good luck, you'd need it. There is no compelling cause why this move should be performed contrary to the consensus. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 00:59, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Already been done! A recent discussion at WP:TENNIS sparked off the discussion Wikipedia:Requested moves/Tennis which was rejected, less than eight weeks ago. Knepflerle (talk) 01:05, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Interesting, since then he has raised exactly the same issue here, trying to pass it off as opposition to a 'controversial' move (an editor had moved the article in line with the recent Tennis player nomenclature). I don't have time now, but later I plan to go through his contributions since that date and see if he hasn't by any chance tried to undermine consensus at any other relatively low-traffic articles. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 01:13, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

What exactly is the "Tennis player nomenclature"? Is it that diacritics always should be used, regardless of verifiable, reliable English-language sources? If not, how do we determine whether diacritics should be used for a particular article? And where is the method we should use specified? Tennis expert (talk) 01:25, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

You (Hexagon1) certainly have the right to request a move of United States to Estados Unidos or anything else based on WP:UE and verifiable, reliable English-language sources. Tennis expert (talk) 01:25, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

The nomenclature is set by precedent here, at your own proposed vote, and the US>ES thing was an example, please discuss the point rather than the examples provided. If you wish to depart from consensus you have to provide a compelling reason. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 01:46, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Again, what is the nomenclature that was agreed to there? Unless I'm missing something, there was no consensus there for anything, which leaves WP:UE still in force concerning tennis player biographies (and everything else). According to the closing administrator, there was a lack of consensus to move the articles listed there. Because this article was not listed there, this article is not covered by that discussion. This is inescapable, simple logic. And I've already provided my arguments for moving this article. See my previous comments, WP:UE, and the verifiable, reliable English-language sources I have listed on this discussion page. If you need more sources, they're readily available through ordinary Internet searches. Tennis expert (talk) 01:53, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Your proposal to drop diacritics across the board has been rejected by the community. In my experience WP:UE has never applied to biographies, for that we have MOS:BIO and WP:NCP which favour neither the diacritical or diacritic-free variants. Moreover, the MOS and naming conventions are merely guidelines, not policies, and both are overridden by a consensus, which has been clearly established here. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 02:04, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know why, but you have grossly misinterpreted my position. I have never, ever made a proposal to drop diacritics across the board, as I have said many times during the last 3 months. What I have said over-and-over-and-over again (here and elsewhere) is that whether diacritics is used in the naming of an article must be determined article-by-article in accordance with WP:UE and reliable, verifiable, English-language sources. I happen to believe that reliable, verifiable, English-language sources support naming this article "Sandra Kleinova". But, as I have said before, I also happen to believe that many biographies of older tennis players should retain diacritics because it is likely that the majority of reliable, verifiable, English-language sources for those players would support diacritics. My position is to examine each biography article-by-article. Generally speaking, I am neither pro- nor anti-diacritics given the current version of WP:UE. I am merely pro-WP:UE. Tennis expert (talk) 02:15, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

How you wanted the result of that discussion interpreted is clear from your edits at the time. That the community did not want UE implementing in the way you did is equally clear. Debates on the implementation of UE both generally and on the issue restricted to tennis biogs have both been recently held and the status quo upheld. The arguments have been heard and found wanting for the time being. Knepflerle (talk) 11:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you agree that my position has always been that "whether diacritics is used in the naming of an article must be determined article-by-article in accordance with WP:UE and reliable, verifiable, English-language sources," that "I have never, ever made a proposal to drop diacritics across the board," and that "I am neither pro- nor anti-diacritics given the current version of WP:UE. I am merely pro-WP:UE." Tennis expert (talk) 23:08, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

• Support For what it's worth. The evidence compiled by Tennis Expert, especially without counter-evidence, is enough to convince me that this person's name is conventionally spelled without the accent. I don't quite believe that "Tennis Biographies" comprise a sacrosanct category which are no longer tethered to reliable, verifiable sources. To those who oppose the move, I suggest you spend a bit of time researching out some counter examples, and win the argument based on the evidence, not on procedure.Erudy (talk) 19:56, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
• Strong oppose Those sources won't make her less of a Czech person with a Czech name. Find one with an official announcement that she changed her name just to get rid of the accent and then this move would be appropriate. Otherwise I suggest Tennis expert to find a different or a more productive obsession. Accents are there for a reason, this crusade to remove them from tennis players' names is senseless. Húsönd 03:41, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
• Support. Spelling her name in English the way English speakers do won't make her less Czech, either (any more than not spelling the nationality Čech.) It is consensus - and contributes to verifiability - to decide these questions by evidence; let us not give more weight than is due to them to calls for criteria we don't require. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:24, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose and speedy close. This move request is made in the violation of recent wide discussion and unanimous consensus which supported the use of diacritics in the article names. - Darwinek (talk) 19:39, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose Can be breaken down to the simplicity of correct and incorrect spelling, without diacritics it's simply wrong. The Dominator^Talk_Edits 21:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
• Object. Diacritics are fine.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. Like it or not, diacritis are part of the Czech language, and changing one's name is out of question. Tymek (talk) 19:41, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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