Talk:Second City derby

Title of Article

This game is always called the Second City Derby it even says it is in the article so why is the page called Birmingham Derby? Birmingham is one of the teams that plays in it its like calling Liverpool v Everton the Liverpool Derby. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.123.170.128 (talk) 19:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

To be fair that's what i thought, wasn't it also sometimes called 'the west midlands derby'? (Bobbymozza) 04.30 23 April 2010

Crossing the Divide

CHRIS Sutton yes he played for Birmingham but he was released before signing for Aston Villa. He was Ex- Birmingham and it would have counted however he did not move directly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.104.51.181 (talk) 11:36, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Please can someone with some good reference material expand this section. There are many more than 2 players who have played for both clubs, including some famous names (the section does not say transfered directly from one to the other, just that they've played for both).

Harry Hampton was one, transfered from Villa to Blues in 1920.

And Bruce Rioch is another.

Dennis Mortimer also played for Birmingham City in the late 1980s, and Tony Morley had a loan spell there.

And Peter Withe played for Birmingham both before and after his time at Villa.

Significantly, the statement that Liam Ridgewell was the last player to play for both sides since Des Bremner in 1984 is completely incorrect! 81.96.161.52 18:17, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Read this page Ridgewell was the last to move! Also this page is being worked on and when I and others have time we will try to get this article up to GA standard if you have info please add it as long as you have ref's Everlast¹⁹¹⁰ 01:24, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, my comment on Ridgewell was mis-worded. I meant to say that he was not the "first" to move since Des Bremner - I believe there were others in between, although I am now struggling to name one who went directly from Villa to Birmingham. But I accept that he is the most recent. Perhaps it is after all more significant to talk about actual transfers between the two clubs than players who have merely played for both at come point. (There are a lot of player moves between the West Midlands clubs generally.)

I could possibly get some info together on the matter, but would rather leave it to someone who has more complete data to hand. Otherwise, I'd be doing a piecemeal job which might end up simply confusing matters. MegdalePlace 05:20, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I've reworded the Crossing the divide prose. There must be 70 or 80 players who've played for both, so I'd suggest any lists be confined to first-team players who moved directly from one club to the other, although there'll still be quite a few. It's not like Arsenal/Spurs where there was genuine hostility between the clubs and a consequent reluctance to allow players to move to the other. Will look for reliable source for the Ellis dates. Struway2 | Talk 08:21, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes i agree with that ill try and add more information when I have time, as well. Everlast¹⁹¹⁰ 09:10, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Good stuff. I've re-worded the last sentence as it no longer followed gramatically - and since Doug Ellis is mentioned I also noted Ron Saunders' move. MegdalePlace 09:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Change of order

I have moved "notable matches" above "premiership" matches in the main layout, because it is more logical that way, chronologically. Also, the text flows better in my view. MegdalePlace (talk) 12:01, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Match stats

A couple of comments on the table of clashes between the clubs:

1. The text above it includes: "since the first league meeting in 1879". The league wasn't in existence then, which raises question marks over which games are actually included in the tallies. Was 1879 a cup game? If so, was it in fact the Birmingham Senior Cup, and if so, should it be tallied in at all? Or was it just a notable friendly? or is the date just wrong? Their first league meeting was presumably 1894 when Birmingham were promoted to Div 1 for the first time.

2. The text says "there have been 122 competitive first–class meetings", but the stats include fewer than this. (Is it because clashes in other competitions are counted too, or is it just inaccurate?)

I would like to suggest that someone with access to the stats re-does the table so that league games are further divided between "football league (1888-1992)" and "premier league (1992-date)". The reason is that I think this will make the stats easier to keep accurate and current. It's a big job to keep re-checking the tally every time it's updated or each time they play, and who can say with certainty if it's ever truly correct? At least this way, the first period is 'closed' and we need only worry about the last few seasons.

Alternatively, which might be better still, how about dividing into 19th, 20th and 21st centuries? The grand totals will still be there, but it will be easier to maintain accurately.

3. Any stats available on war time games? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.96.164.105 (talk) 07:17, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

--Further to the above, I have looked at the Birmingham Senior Cup page on Wiki, and see that the two clubs have contested the final 3 times (1905-6; 1982-3; 1995-6). Birmingham won 2 of them. Should this and other data relating to the competition be added in either as part of the stats, or a separate section? (Are there any stats available, other than from these finals?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.96.164.105 (talk) 07:31, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

'Better known' and 'Also known'

Based on anecdotal evidence (reading, watching TV, listening to the radio, talking to people, etc. etc.) , I'd argue that 'Second City derby' is the most commonly used name for games between Aston Villa and Birmingham City, and is used more than 'Birmingham derby'. Obviously there's no study performed that backs this up - but equally, this is most likely the position for Old Firm rather than Glasgow derby, Steel City derby rather than Sheffield derby, and so on. Either the popular name should be used in all instances, or, if the popular name cannot be conclusively substantiated as being so (I'd guess that this is always going to be the case - what kind of person conducts studies into the nomenclature of football matches?), then as precise a name as possible should be used, even if it's not idiomatic. This is a rushed little paragraph, but what are your thoughts? Matthew (talk) 13:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, to take just the most recent Villa-Blues game as an example, it was referred to as the "Second City Derby" by The Guardian [1], The Telegraph [2], The Times [3], The Independent [4], The Mirror [5], The Sun [6], the BBC [7], Sky Sports [8], Eurosport [9] and Setanta [10]. Sure it's sometimes called the Birmingham Derby, just as the Old Firm is sometimes called the Glasgow Derby, and you can find the odd mention of it as the West Midlands Derby too, but there's not a lot of doubt what it's usually called. Football Derbies.com agrees [11]. JimmyGuano (talk) 20:32, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

To me, that's an argument for renaming this page to Second City derby rather than just included a 'better known' statement. Matthew (talk) 19:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

The one follows from the other doesn't it? The article should be named after the name for which it is best known as per WP:NAME. The exception would be if this makes it in some way ambiguous, but the name's unqualified and preferred use across such a spread of the UK media suggests it's pretty clear. Are there any other matches commonly referred to as the Second City derby? JimmyGuano (talk) 23:35, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

The page was originally moved with this reasoning. As there is no official second city of the UK, it shouldn't be called the Second City derby." (I'm not subscribing to that view, just pointing it out.) I think a requested move is needed here to settle it. Woody (talk) 10:22, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

It is much more often called Second City Derby and so the article should be called that, regardless of anyone's opinions on Birmingham's status as second city. There is an article on 'South Coast Derby' about the Saints-Pompey rivalry even though probably half-a-dozen teams feel they play in a south coast derby. Because that is what it is commonly known as that is what the article is called. This article should be likewise. Feel free if need be to have a note linking to a page disputing Birmingham's second city status, but I have never heard the Manchester, Glasgow or anywhere else derbies called 'Second City Derby'. --Villafancd (talk) 12:03, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

If you want it moved, it'd probably be best to go through the requested move process, as Woody suggested just above, which opens the question to a wider forum than those 4 or 5 of us who happen to have this page watchlisted. It's easily done. See WP:RM#Requesting a single page move, copy the bit in the box and paste it at the bottom of this page, and fill in the suggested new name and your reasons why. Then after a few days someone will come along and look at the arguments and see if a consensus has been reached. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:53, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no comments against move - page move completed _Will^Dow (Talk) 11:28, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

---

Requested move

Birmingham derby → Second City derby — As per WP:COMMONNAME; this is what the derby is most commonly referred to, as per the discussion on the Talk Page. The fact that there is a dispute over which city is the second city is irrelevant - this derby is most commonly referred to as the "Second City derby", and never the "Birmingham derby". For example:[12][13][14][15][16]. _Will^Dow (Talk) 10:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

• Support per commonname. Sandman888 (talk) 16:24, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
• Support as per commonname and previous discussion by me and others above (I've been meaning to request a move for ages, so well done, User:Willdow. But only if the primary article is "Second City derby", with the 's' and 'c' both capitalised. Matthew (talk) 07:09, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
• Comment Don't think it's particularly helpful to say it's "never" referred to as the Birmingham derby. I could add just as many links to a similar set of sources to show that it is: [17][18][19][20]... I do agree that any ambiguity about which is the "second city" doesn't extend to "Second City derby", which clearly does refer to this game, and that if Second City derby is the common name as per reliable English published sources, it should move there. But as we stand, just saying it's the common name doesn't make it true. I've tried to formulate a google search to compare the two, but even including "Aston Villa" as a search term to try and restrict it to football, "Birmingham derby" still picks up all sorts of false positives like "Birmingham, Derby", "Birmingham's derby", "Villa v Birmingham derby" etc; if someone could construct a search that works, to compare usage of the two in reliable English published sources, it'd be useful. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:36, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
• Comment I agree with Struway2 that it's too extreme to say 'Birmingham derby' is never used, but still consider 'Second City derby' is the popular name. Regarding the research proposed, oughtn't a similar 'project' be applied to Steel City derby, Old Firm derby, and so on...? And how would one decide where 'Sheffield derby' was being used as a name, and where the 'Sheffield' was merely used an adjective (like 'American cheese' can refer that horrible orangey rubbery stuff if used as a name, or to any cheese that is American if 'American' is only an adjective and not part of the name. All rhetorical questions, by the way!) One further matter perhaps of note is that this article originally sat at Second City derby before being unilaterally moved to its present location without any prior discussion or debate. OK, hope this isn't too complicated, but a wikipedia text box isn't the best place for clearly expressing a thought or two. Matthew (talk) 13:32, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
• Support as per proposer, though agree with User:Majabl re capital "C" - the term is a nickname, not a description - this is important. "Second City derby" is by no means the only way it's referred to ("West Midlands derby" and simply "Villa-Blues" aren't unheard of either) but it is the most common in my experience. No idea how that could be scientifically proved though. JimmyGuano (talk) 20:22, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Crossing the Divide

Should Charlie Phillips be added - Villa to Blues in 1938. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Phillips_(footballer) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:32ED:800:4453:7B0D:4756:88BE (talk) 21:32, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

Should Gary Gardner be added? JamesVilla44 (talk) 12:33, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Fred Wheldon

Crossed the divide from Small Heath to Villa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:3266:6300:687C:15DF:FC19:6847 (talk) 19:01, 3 December 2018 (UTC)