Talk:Sycorax

GA review

Another nice article on a Shakespeare character! Are you moving your way up to Hamlet? :) I think that this article is almost GA, but not quite. Here are my suggestions for improvement:

Lead:

• I have broken the lead up into three paragraphs, but these could probably be improved even further. The sentences are a bit choppy at the moment. See WP:BETTER#Lead section for tips on writing leads.
  • I adjusted things per hidden comments, but it still may need a copyedit. Wrad 17:14, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Content:

• In the end, the difficulty in finding any real source for the name may come from attempting to explain a New World name through Old World sources. In other words, scholars may be trying to explain an unknown culture through their own. - This is a little confusing - how would Shakespeare have known so much about "New World" cultures?
  • I replaced that statement. Shakespeare actually did know about the new world (there is a reference to Barbados in the play), but I felt that this sentence was given undue weight. I think not including it will better get the main message across--that there are a lot of guesses, but in the end, nobody knows where the name comes from. Wrad 16:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
• she is extremely wary of her actions as each night approaches - why is she wary of her own actions?
  • Wow. That was a typo. Fixed. Wrad 16:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
    • I feel like I still don't understand this. Awadewit | talk 23:22, 29
      • Fixed it again. Wrad 01:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

August 2007 (UTC)

• In the "Later versions of the play", could you identify the performances by date and nationality?
  • Added. Wrad 17:13, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
• In the first paragraph of the "Silenced Sycorax" section, there is some confusion between Africa and the Caribbean.
  • Tried to fix this. Still may need a copyedit. Wrad 17:19, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
• The two big quotes don't seem to add all that much to the article, especially since there is little analysis of them.
  • Removed. Wrad 16:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
• I feel that the "Popular culture" section is rather trivial. Could the information be included in some sort of Shakespeare in popular culture page?
  • Removed. (That would be a very large page!) Wrad 16:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Maybe Shakespeare in popular culture in the United States or Shakespeare in popular culture in the twentieth century? :) Awadewit | talk 23:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Organization:

• I would move the "Later versions of the play" after the "Analysis" section, since the "Analysis" focuses on Shakespeare's version.
  • Moved. Wrad 17:33, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Prose (I would suggest a quick copy edit by someone unfamiliar with the article; there are a few awkward sentences, etc.)

• Scholars have unearthed surprisingly few facts about Sycorax's origin. - This almost sounds like she is real.
  • Fixed. Wrad 22:11, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
• Some argue that her name may be a combination of sus ("pig") and korax ("crow"). - What language are these words from?
  • Added Greek. Wrad 17:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
• Others see connections with an early Circe of the Coraxi tribe in modern-day Georgia. - I would link to the country to avoid any confusion.
  • Link added. Wrad 17:26, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
• Batman upon Bartheme, a play which Shakespeare may have been aware of, contains a raven called Corax. - Date for the play would be helpful
  • I've looked all over and can't find a date. All we know from the source is that Shakespeare may have been aware of it. Wrad 17:35, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
• An especially odd and early guess at a meaning by one critic was sic or rex in connection with Queen Elizabeth's pride and double-mindedness. - I hope you have a source for the "odd" comment. :); also, again give the reader the language of the words
  • "odd" is sourced and a pretty universal opinion. Language added = Latin. Wrad 17:20, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
• Sycorax's silent role plays an important part of colonialist interpretations of The Tempest. - I'm pretty sure you mean "post-colonialist".
  • Fixed. Wrad 18:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
• The beginning of the "Blue eyes" section could be a bit more elegant.
  • Fixed. Wrad 22:08, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Images:

• I take it that there are no images of Sycorax?
  • Yes. After hours of searching, I only found two, both of which were under copyright and provided no information on how to contact the owner. Wrad 16:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
    • There's always Caliban....Awadewit | talk 23:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Well, I just hate to do that to her, see comment below. Wrad 01:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
        • I was thinking we should go for a frame from the movie. :) Awadewit | talk 02:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

MOS:

• It would be nice if the titles of books in the footnotes were italicized.
  • Fixed. Wrad 22:11, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

As always, drop me a line if you have any questions regarding the review. Awadewit | talk 21:21, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the historical accuracy of the woman in Algiers, it was an account found by Charles Lamb, but records have been lost and are not verified since he saw them. Wrad 21:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I added this. Wrad 21:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I should have been clearer - I added the phrase "around the time Shakespeare was writing the play" and I wondered if that was accurate. Awadewit | talk 21:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

If it's correct, it would have been about half a century earlier, during Charles V's reign over the Holy Roman empire. I added that in. Wrad 22:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Is there any information on how Shakespeare might have become aware of this story? Awadewit | talk 23:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Not that I've been able to find. It's just something Charles Lamb mentions, but he wasn't really able to go too in depth with it, and we don't have the documents he had. Wrad 00:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Only things left are the version of The Tempest I am quoting, and "The Scythian Raven". I don't have a Shakespeare text with me to cite it to. I got it from the internet. "Scythian Raven" I'm afraid I can't expound on. The source goes no further than I do. Wrad 21:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

• I would give a link to the internet version of Shakespeare you used, then. Awadewit | talk 21:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. Wrad 21:57, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Let me know what you think of the revisions - I've reorganized a bit. Always feel free to revert any changes I make, obviously. What do you think about integrating the "Avoiding execution" section into the "Sources" section? I think it is more relevant to sources that analysis. Awadewit | talk 23:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

The only problem I have with that is that "how she avoided execution" is one of the common critical questions asked by scholars. I like it separate because it highlights it better, and makes it easier for a student to find the answer to a question she is likely to ask if she really wants to know about Sycorax. Wrad 01:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I see. Perhaps you could expand the section someday, then? Since it only has one theory, it seems a little thin right now. Awadewit | talk 02:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I liked most of your suggestions, they helped me put things into context better. I've got everything covered now except expansion on anti-matriarchal Sycorax feminism (that was a mouthful). I don't know how much is out there on that, to be honest. Most of the time Sycorax is just mentioned in passing by scholars. I've relied on a few broader works to help piece things together, but the matriarchal section was difficult to find sources for. That surprised me, since it seemed like it should be a larger part of the criticism. Maybe I should publish something on it to get more out there :) . Sadly, Sycorax is still not really seen as a woman so much as she is seen as a race, or as related to other characters in the play, such as Caliban. Wrad 01:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

That surprises me, too. I see a senior thesis... Awadewit | talk 02:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Appearances

I'm not going to dive into this article myself, but I will just mention that Sycorax is sometimes actually depicted in performances: especially on screen. (Presumably it happens less in the theatre because you'd need to cast an actress in the role. Besides, if you're not doing a flashback, where would she go?) You can see Prospero's Books and Derek Jarman's Tempest for examples. That should probably be mentioned in the article somewhere, unless it already is and I missed it. AndyJones 09:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I've found some good sources for this and will add it soon. Incidentally, does anyone own these films? If you do, could you capture a good screenshot of Sycorax? That would provide a much-needed image for the article. Wrad 19:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I've got them both on VHS, I'm afraid, which won't help you much. Anyone else? Maybe worth cross-posting at The Tempest? —Preceding unsigned comment added by AndyJones (talk • contribs) 21:01, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

I added these. Wrad 20:08, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I think your last sentence is wrong. Jarman 1979, Greenaway 1991, by me. I may be wrong, but what does your source say? AndyJones 20:10, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

IMDB agrees with my dates. Also, I think as you've written it, it implies that Greenaway's Sycorax also breastfed an adult Caliban on screen, which I don't remember happening (although both films have lots of nudity). AndyJones 20:14, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I just fixed the date thing. Let me double check the breast feeding... Yep, that definitely is in the source. Maybe it's just hard to see. Wrad 20:18, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Blue Eye struggle

I don't see any evidence of a "struggle" to explain her blue eyes, as if they are in some sense a mystery. The concept of a "struggle" to explain something implies that it is recognised as anomalous in the first place. The only context in which it is perceived as anomalous is 19th century racial theory, in which there is an assumption that blue eyes are somehow "wrong" in an African. I can't see any evidence that any such "struggle" exists any longer, since the assumption that Shakesperare should follow Victorian models of racial differences no longer exists. It would be true to say that a sub-section of Victorian scholars "struggled" with the supposed "problem", but only because they were starting from a 'Bardological' view that Shakespeare must be scientifically correct - according to their own assumptions about what is correct. Modern scholars have no such problem. What you have is a set of comments, but I see no sign that anyone nowadays considers this to be some sort of contradiction that would require a "struggle" to explain it. In fact most of this section is very unclearly referenced anyway. The penultimate sentence is downright bizarre: "recent twentieth-century scholarship has suggested that Sycorax's blue eyes, paired with descriptions of her ugliness and foreignness, can be read as a synthesis of African and European ideals". Who are these "scholars"? Why would Shakespeare have any idea what an African "ideal" of beauty is, and why would we assume that he had some PC modern vision of harmonising racial ideals? It doesn't even make sense. Apart from being blue eyed, she's "ugly and foreign", but this is also an African "ideal". So ugliness is an ideal in Africa is it? Paul B (talk) 16:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I think most of the references in that section are available at least in part on google books. I'd be interested in what you'd have to say about them on a closer look. Wrad (talk) 16:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointer. It seems that the blue eyed thing is a particular obession of Marcus, and is also very briefly disussed by Purkis in The Witch in History. Purkis herself states that "modern editors universally interpret the blue eyes as merely blue eyelids, signs of pregancy" (p.264 my emphasis). So it seems there is no struggle at all, but unanimity! Purkis seems to want to make something significant of the eyes. This seems to be because this chapter is about witches on "the margins of race", so she has to create the notion that Sycorax is racially marginal (contrary to the "universal" opinion of other modern scholars). She even adds the rhetorical question "is it we, and not Shakespeare, who are troubled by the idea of a hag from Algiers with blue eyes?". And yet she has provided zero evidence that anyone ever is troubled by it.[1]. Marcus has a chapter on the subject, and again emphasises that modern scholars "are relatively uniform in their interpretation of the line" (p.7). That's less absolute than Purkis's "universally", but is equally clear that there is a wide consensus rather than any sort of "struggle" to make sense of it. Again Marcus provides ample evidence to support the standard view that in Renaissance culture "blue eyes" was more likely to refer to bluely/bleary-look about the eyes than to the colour of the iris, comparable to the modern phrase "black eye". He does suggest that Darwinian ideas affected Victorian writers, but his evidence for this is thin (some actually seem to be arguing for something similar to the modern view; others appear to be expressing personal thoughts about how pale blue eyes can look evil). So it seems that what we have is Marcus and Purkis suggesting that the blue eyes might have a significance beyond the standard view, while both acknowleging that there is unaminity, or at least consensus, among scholars that there is no mystery at all! This does seem to me to suggest that this is not a great problem or struggle for modern critics, certainly not sufficient to be picked out in the lede, and that the section should clearly give the majority view prominence with Marcus and Purkis as partial dissenters, per WP:UNDUE. Paul B (talk) 17:37, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Sounds fair to me. We may even want to combine the section with another section... Wrad (talk) 17:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'll do my best. Paul B (talk) 23:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Davenant's 18th century adaptation

Since William Davenant lived entirely in the 17th century how is his adaptation in the 18th? Dynasteria (talk) 18:12, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Fixed. Dynasteria (talk) 18:17, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Doctor Who Expansion

An added line of intrigue for the use of 'Sycorax' in Doctor Who is that the connection between Tempest and the show is mentioned in 'The Shakespeare Code' in which the Doctor references the enemy and Shakespeare outlines his goal to use the name in a future play. JoeyoWiki 19 (talk) 12:47, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

I think that's correct (I watched that episode fairly recently) but it seems too trivial to mention in the article unless there is a source. Do you have one? AndyJones (talk) 12:52, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

The source you've given looks like a blog to me. AndyJones (talk) 13:10, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

There are a few alternatives I can give you, but yeah if it's too trivial feel free to remove it. JoeyoWiki 19 (talk) 13:13, 5 September 2024 (UTC)