Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Afu Thomas

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep per evidence of significant coverage provided by Cunard. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:55, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Afu Thomas

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non notable internet guy MistyGraceWhite (talk) 02:03, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 02:18, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Internet-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 02:18, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 02:19, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@MistyGraceWhite: Please explain why he's "non notable" in light of WP:GNG

WP:GNG states: "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list."

Wikipedia:Notability (people) also states: "People are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject."

You have at least three articles which follow this standard from at least three different publications (Deutsche Welle, Xinhua, and Buzzfeed News) from three different countries (Germany, China, and the United States).

Vloggers in foreign countries are not as common, and part of why he's well-noted in China is that he's a foreigner.

WhisperToMe (talk) 04:21, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@User:WhisperToMe a couple of articles are not enough for an article on wikipedia. Significant coverage is needed. WP:NOTNEWS. MistyGraceWhite (talk) 08:13, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@MistyGraceWhite: Misty, WP:NOTNEWS is a frequently misunderstood guideline. Let's quote it:

"Editors are encouraged to include current and up-to-date information within its coverage, and to develop stand-alone articles on significant current events. However, not all verifiable events are suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia." - This is focused on ensuring not every minute detail event is included.
"Wikipedia considers the enduring notability of persons and events. While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion[...]" - This portion is focused on ensuring not every single event is included.
"Even when an event is notable, individuals involved in it may not be. Unless news coverage of an individual goes beyond the context of a single event,[...]" - In this case the coverage of the first two articles is about the guy's entire life and career, not him in the context of a single event.

Also a "couple of articles" is exactly what's needed under the notability guidelines as per the quotes below.

WhisperToMe (talk) 16:27, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@ User:WhisperToMe Nowhere will you see that two PR articles make an unknwon guy pass GNG. This guy is not notable, does not pass GNG. I am astounded that an experinced editor like yourself does not get the point of GNG. MistyGraceWhite (talk) 17:56, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Misty, I would suggest reading Grandpa Kitchen and take careful note of the sourcing. This article was submitted for Wikipedia:Asian Month and was accepted. WhisperToMe (talk) 08:54, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I agree with MistyGraceWhite a few article do not prove notability and looking at the article they are not in dept articles that cover a significant portion of his life/work.--AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 10:38, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @AlejandroLeloirRey: Hi, Alejandro! Please bear in mind what the notability guidelines say:
  - WP:GNG states: ""Significant coverage" addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material."
  - Afu Thomas is the main topic in all three of these articles.
  - WP:GNG also states: "There is no fixed number of sources required since sources vary in quality and depth of coverage, but multiple sources are generally expected." I have multiple sources in this article, which means at least two.
- WhisperToMe (talk) 16:23, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@User:WhisperToMe have you read the articles yourself? This is not an article. It is a collection of his videos. You cannot get more PR and unreliable than this. This is a mockery of an article which is only 4 lines long. And this PR piece has the subjects name as co producer, check at the very bottom. These are not Reliable sources, they are just PR pieces. They ought to be removed from an article as sources, let alone be the grounds for inclusion of a person. MistyGraceWhite (talk) 18:08, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Misty, I read them, or else I wouldn't be citing them.

1. It is incorrect that Buzzfeed News "is not an article" - Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources states: "There is consensus that BuzzFeed News is generally reliable. BuzzFeed News now operates separately from BuzzFeed, and most news content originally hosted on BuzzFeed was moved to the BuzzFeed News website in 2018." - While it cautions articles after 2019 due to staff layoffs, the cited article by Beimeng Fu is from 2016. secondly while a large part of the article is pictures, Beimeng Fu has written narratives about him and his work in between the pictures.

2. The Deutsche Welle article has an attached video that is three minutes long; this includes an English voiceover. The main point of the article is the video, and the caption is just a summary.

3. Ah, I didn't see that detail in the bottom ("Joint Production: Afu Thomas") which does mean that article is not independent of the subject, but we still have Buzzfeed News and the DW video which are.

4. Keep in mind there are also sources in German and Chinese. Here is one from Die Welt, a German newspaper.

WhisperToMe (talk) 18:21, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@ User:WhisperToMe, so we are now left with two sources. Just read the buzzfeed article. It is a PR fiasco with nothing but screen captures from his youtube and the writing in between is nothing but captions. DW is more of the same. MistyGraceWhite (talk) 18:57, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

MistyGraceWhite, please re-read the above: there are three independent sources again as there is a written article from Die Welt of Germany and there is a possibility of more from German and Chinese sources. And now there's also this: Deutsche Welle has a lengthy Chinese language article which is an interview of Afu Thomas done by a secondary source.

RE: the DW video, do you have the volume turned on when you listen to the video? There is a speaker who is making commentary while the pictures go on.

Also I do not believe there is a "PR fiasco" criterion in the notability guidelines we have. I would suggest reviewing the article Grandpa Kitchen, which I wrote for Wikipedia:Asian Month. Similar types of citations, and this article was approved to be a part of Asian Month.

WhisperToMe (talk) 19:10, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.

Fu, Beimeng (2016-04-07). "This German Man Is China's Newest Internet Celebrity, Believe It Or Not". BuzzFeed News. Archived from the original on 2020-04-27. Retrieved 2020-04-26.
Rottmann, Kerstin (2019-05-06). "„Afu, der glückliche Deutsche" – Er weiß, was Chinesen zum Lachen bringt" ["Afu, the happy German" - He knows what makes Chinese laugh]. Die Welt (in Chinese). Archived from the original on 2021-05-05. Retrieved 2020-04-27.
丁海平, ed. (2017-11-19). ""洋创客"德国阿福创业故事：想做中德文化的桥梁" ["Foreign Maker" German Afu entrepreneurial story: want to be a bridge between Chinese and German culture]. 中国侨网 (in Chinese). China News Service. Archived from the original on 2020-04-26. Retrieved 2020-04-26.
Hicks, Dave (2017-09-11). "How China's Famous Foreigners Double as Diplomats". Sixth Tone. Archived from the original on 2020-04-26. Retrieved 2020-04-26.
Xie, Wenting (2015-05-24). "The domestic wrangles of expat men and their Chinese fathers-in-law". Global Times. Archived from the original on 2020-04-26. Retrieved 2020-04-26.
Xu, Shanshan (2016-09-01). "No cash? No problem". Ecns.cn. China News Service. Archived from the original on 2020-04-26. Retrieved 2020-04-26.
Li, Han (2018-06-28). "Nut Cases: How Foreign Viral Video Stars Are Defying Stereotypes". Sixth Tone. Archived from the original on 2020-04-27. Retrieved 2020-04-27.
Wurzel, Steffen (2019-04-08). "Chinesen lieben den Influencer aus Gummersbach" [Chinese love the influencer from Gummersbach] (in Chinese). Deutschlandfunk Kultur. Archived from the original on 2020-04-27. Retrieved 2020-04-27.
Deuber, Lea (2016-05-26). "Wie ein Deutscher das Internet in China begeistert" [How a German enthuses the Internet in China]. Bento (in Chinese). Archived from the original on 2020-04-27. Retrieved 2020-04-27.
"Big in Shanghai – German Internet Star Thomas Derksen". Deutsche Welle. 2017-05-29. Archived from the original on 2020-04-27. Retrieved 2020-04-27.

Sources with quotes

Fu, Beimeng (2016-04-07). "This German Man Is China's Newest Internet Celebrity, Believe It Or Not". BuzzFeed News. Archived from the original on 2020-04-27. Retrieved 2020-04-26.
The article notes:
Meet Thomas, a man living in Shanghai from a little town near Cologne, Germany.
Chinese people call him "Afu," a common Chinese nickname meaning "fortune." Afu has become famous for posting hilarious videos mocking everyday family and social life as a husband married to a Shanghai woman.
In the video "What is it like to marry a Shanghai woman," he impersonates his mother-in-law, a typical middle-aged Shanghai woman in her apron, dominating the kitchen area of the apartment.
...
Afu is so China-savvy that he uploads his videos onto all the popular Chinese social media, even the less mainstream but dope among youth video-streaming site Bilibili. (It's kind of, sort of like Snapchat.) And comments are pouring in.
...
Afu, who is from Marienheide, Germany, and attended China's Fudan University, makes the videos because he wants to "talk about the most funny, delicious, and beautiful stuff from Germany," as well as from China.
Rottmann, Kerstin (2019-05-06). "„Afu, der glückliche Deutsche" – Er weiß, was Chinesen zum Lachen bringt" ["Afu, the happy German" - He knows what makes Chinese laugh]. Die Welt (in Chinese). Archived from the original on 2021-05-05. Retrieved 2020-04-27.
丁海平, ed. (2017-11-19). ""洋创客"德国阿福创业故事：想做中德文化的桥梁" ["Foreign Maker" German Afu entrepreneurial story: want to be a bridge between Chinese and German culture]. 中国侨网 (in Chinese). China News Service. Archived from the original on 2020-04-26. Retrieved 2020-04-26.
The article notes:
这是Thomas Derksen 今年发布在中国社交媒体的短视频《我只不过想在上海买套房》片段。他来自德国北威州小镇马林海德，中文名叫阿福，目前在中国致力于自媒体短视频创业。在《我只不过想在上海买套房》中，阿福语速飞快，频繁变换表情和手势，吐槽上海的房价。但在视频最后，他不再搞怪，而是对着镜头说，“房子不应该是我们唯一的追求，更不应该为了它就忘了生活真正的意义。大家说对不对？”
“对对对，大家干了这碗鸡汤！”在中国视频网站“哔哩哔哩”，有网民在留言区发表如此评论。目前，这一视频在“哔哩哔哩”被点击27.2万次，收获近1000条弹幕评论。而在阿福的微信公众号“阿福Thomas”，该视频文章的阅读量也已超过10万次。
...
阿福与中国的故事起源于2005年。那一年，还在念高中的他跟随一位拿到汉学博士学位的老师学习中文。“当时对我来说，中国是一个很神秘的国家。”2007年在那位老师的组织下，阿福第一次到中国游玩。为了那次旅行，他特意兼职打工以赚取旅途所需费用。
From Google Translate:
This is a clip of Thomas Derksen's short video "I Just Want to Buy a Suite in Shanghai" released on Chinese social media this year. He is from Malinheide, a small town in North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany, and his Chinese name is Afu. He is currently working on self-media short video entrepreneurship in China. In "I Just Want to Buy a Suite in Shanghai", Afu spoke quickly, frequently changing expressions and gestures, and complained about Shanghai's housing prices. But at the end of the video, he no longer made a fuss, but said to the camera, "The house should not be our only pursuit, nor should we forget the true meaning of life for it. Is everyone right?"
"Yes, yes, everyone made this bowl of chicken soup!" On the Chinese video site "BELIBELI", some netizens commented in the message area. At present, this video has been viewed 272,000 times in "Bilibili", and has received nearly 1,000 barrage comments. In Afu's WeChat public account "Afu Thomas", the video article has been read more than 100,000 times.
...
The story of Afu and China originated in 2005. That year, while still in high school, he followed a teacher with a PhD in Sinology to learn Chinese. "For me at that time, China was a very mysterious country." In 2007, under the teacher's organization, Afu visited China for the first time. For that trip, he deliberately worked part-time to earn the cost of the trip.
Hicks, Dave (2017-09-11). "How China's Famous Foreigners Double as Diplomats". Sixth Tone. Archived from the original on 2020-04-26. Retrieved 2020-04-26.
The article notes:
This July, as world leaders prepared to descend on Hamburg, Germany for the 2017 G-20 Summit, a German man named Thomas Derksen sat in his Shanghai apartment and penned a letter home.
His purpose was specific: He thought Germany could learn from China and become a largely cashless society, and he wanted Chancellor Angela Merkel to know it. So Derksen — popularly known as Afu Thomas to the 5 million fans of his videos across Chinese social media — wrote his letter, shared it online, and watched it go viral. In the following days, stories about his letter appeared in both Chinese and German media.
Derksen’s celebrity status — drawn largely from his talent for creating humorous social media videos in virtually flawless Chinese — allowed him to capitalize on an international diplomatic event as a chance to build cross-cultural understanding. Through the German media, Derksen helped his countrymen understand one aspect of life in China. And in the same stroke, he gave his Chinese fans an example of what civic engagement looks like in his home country.
Xie, Wenting (2015-05-24). "The domestic wrangles of expat men and their Chinese fathers-in-law". Global Times. Archived from the original on 2020-04-26. Retrieved 2020-04-26.
The article notes:
German-born Thomas Derksen, 28, can still recall his extreme trepidation the first time he met his Chinese father-in-law.
...
Since their first meeting more than two years ago, Derksen has lived with his wife's family on-and-off while doing an exchange at Fudan University as part of his bachelor's degree in East Asian studies at the Ruhr University Bochum in Germany.
...
Zhu Fuqiang, Derksen's father-in-law, said it takes time for a father-in-law to get the measure of a son-in-law. He admitted that initially, he was unhappy with the idea of his daughter marrying someone from another culture, but had come to see Derksen's good qualities.
Xu, Shanshan (2016-09-01). "No cash? No problem". Ecns.cn. China News Service. Archived from the original on 2020-04-26. Retrieved 2020-04-26.
The article notes:
Thomas Derksen, a social media star known for posting fun videos that satirizes everyday life in Shanghai, was recently given a challenge of spending a day in Hangzhou, the capital of Zhejiang province, without any cash or credit cards on hand.
The German expatriate, who lives in Shanghai, admitted that it was something he could not imagine doing back home in Europe, but he breezed through the challenge using only his smartphone, which was installed with Alipay, the third-party payment app.
Derksen, who has been affectionately nicknamed A Fu by netizens, started his cashless day at Hangzhou East Railway Station, where he managed to rent an umbrella and a portable battery for his phone simply by scanning a QR code and completing the transaction with Alipay.
Li, Han (2018-06-28). "Nut Cases: How Foreign Viral Video Stars Are Defying Stereotypes". Sixth Tone. Archived from the original on 2020-04-27. Retrieved 2020-04-27.
The article notes:
In Shanghai, a German man named Thomas — who goes by the Chinese handle Ah Fu, meaning good fortune — has gained millions of followers on both Weibo and WeChat by producing videos documenting his daily life and relationship with his Chinese in-laws. A former student at Shanghai’s Fudan University, his funniest and most compelling segments tend to reflect on the linguistic and cultural differences between China and Germany.
Wurzel, Steffen (2019-04-08). "Chinesen lieben den Influencer aus Gummersbach" [Chinese love the influencer from Gummersbach] (in Chinese). Deutschlandfunk Kultur. Archived from the original on 2020-04-27. Retrieved 2020-04-27.
The article notes:
Video-Geschichten übers Essen machten ihn in China berühmt. Der 30-jährige Thomas Gerksen alias „Afu“ kommt im Reich der Mitte auf ein paar Millionen Follower. Der einflussreiche Mittler zwischen deutscher und chinesischer Kultur lebt mit seiner Frau in Shanghai.
Seine Video-Clips haben Thomas Derksen in China berühmt gemacht. Nicht unter dessen deutschem Namen allerdings, sondern unter „Afu“, das ist der chinesische Spitzname des 30-Jährigen.
Die rund zehnminütigen Video-Geschichten von Afu handeln von seinem Leben in Shanghai, vom Zusammenleben mit seiner chinesischen Frau, seinen Schwiegereltern und ganz viel geht’s ums Essen.
...
Egal, ob Afu im Norden Chinas unterwegs ist und scharfe Fischuppe probiert oder ob er in seiner Heimatstadt Gummersbach östlich von Köln in einem stinknormalen deutschen Supermarkt einkaufen geht: Er und seine Frau machen daraus launige Videos – und seine Fans in China lieben diesen Einblick ins deutsche Leben, in die Denkweise der Deutschen. Bei Facebook und Youtube hat Afu rund 400.000 Follower. Auf chinesischen Video-Seiten sind es nochmal fast 20 Mal so viele.
From Google Translate:
Video stories about food made him famous in China. The 30-year-old Thomas Gerksen alias "Afu" has a few million followers in the Middle Kingdom. The influential mediator between German and Chinese culture lives with his wife in Shanghai.
His video clips have made Thomas Derksen famous in China. Not under his German name, however, but under "Afu", that is the Chinese nickname of the 30-year-old.
Afu's ten-minute video stories are about his life in Shanghai, living together with his Chinese wife, his in-laws and a lot about food.
...
Regardless of whether Afu is in the north of China and tries spicy fish soup or whether he goes shopping in his hometown Gummersbach east of Cologne in a normal German supermarket: He and his wife make fun videos out of it - and his fans in China love this insight into German Life, in the mindset of the Germans. Afu has around 400,000 followers on Facebook and YouTube. There are almost 20 times as many on Chinese video sites.
Deuber, Lea (2016-05-26). "Wie ein Deutscher das Internet in China begeistert" [How a German enthuses the Internet in China]. Bento (in Chinese). Archived from the original on 2020-04-27. Retrieved 2020-04-27.
The article notes:
Wer Derksen in Shanghai treffen will, muss erst ein wenig suchen. Zwischen einem ausländischen Sportgeschäft und einer großen Bank hindurch, ein kleines Gässchen entlang, durch Hinterhöfe und an Männern vorbei, die auf dem Fußboden hocken, spucken und rauchen. Dort sitzt Derksen mit seiner Frau Zhu Liping in einem Café. Derksen gefällt der Ort mitten in Shanghai. Es ist das alte China, das sich hier hinter den modernen Hochhäusern versteckt. Seine Frau stammt aus Shanghai und ist "absolut der Kopf hinter der ganzen Sache" gibt Derksen ohne Zögern zu. "Sie ist die Texterin, Regisseurin und Kamerafrau." Und: "Die Lustige von uns beiden."
Während der Schulzeit war Derksen das erste Mal mit einer Arbeitsgemeinschaft seines Gymnasiums in China. Nach dem Abi machte er wie seine zwei Geschwister erst eine Banklehre, das wurde ihm nach drei Jahren aber zu langweilig. Derksen ging an die Uni und studierte Wirtschaft und Politik Ostasiens. Bei einem Sprachkurs in Shanghai lernte er 2012 seine Frau kennen. "Dann bin ich noch einmal für ein Jahr zum Studium zurückgekommen."
Ganz so wie in seinen Videos ist es bei ihm dann nicht gewesen: Im Gegensatz zu vielen chinesischen Männern musste er weder Auto, Geld noch Wohnung in die Ehe mitbringen. "Hätte ich auch nicht gehabt als armer Student", sagt Derksen und lacht. Anders als in den meisten Familien, wo das Vermögen des zukünftigen Ehemanns noch entscheidend für die Heiratserlaubnis der Eltern ist, hatte er Glück mit seinem Schwiegervater: "Er sagte nur: Hauptsache, dass ihr euch mögt."
From Google Translate:
He still has to get used to people turning on the street after him. Otherwise Thomas Derksen seems pretty relaxed. For having become a Chinese internet star in the past few weeks.
The 27-year-old from Marienheide has been living in Shanghai for almost half a year and with his videos about his life in the Chinese city, he now has hundreds of thousands of followers on platforms like Weibo and Meipai. His most successful video has been seen more than ten million times so far.
Derksen's recipe for success: he is just himself. And his fans love it. Of course, it's a little over the top if he makes fun of Chinese women with a pink bow in their hair who don't want to carry their handbags. And with the played cute helplessness drive their friends crazy. Or mothers who are constantly trying to marry their daughters.
"Big in Shanghai – German Internet Star Thomas Derksen". Deutsche Welle. 2017-05-29. Archived from the original on 2020-04-27. Retrieved 2020-04-27.
The article notes:
Every week, Thomas Derksen uploads new sketches to blogging services like Weibo, Meipai and QQ. The German comedian sends up Chinese stereotypes, speaking the local dialect fluently. Tens of millions of users click on his videos. What began as a lark for an exchange student has turned into a good living. Just one year after starting out in Shanghai, Derksen has two employees helping out, plus his wife.
A three-minute video accompanies the article.

There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Afu Thomas to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

Cunard (talk) 00:24, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep As per the above WhisperToMe (talk) 06:32, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.