- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. czar 02:04, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
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- Ironmouse (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Not a notable streamer. The Wired reference is a trivial mention, and TwitchTracker is a database. No substantial coverage found. power~enwiki (π, ν) 01:45, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Entertainment-related deletion discussions. power~enwiki (π, ν) 01:45, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- Keep: The Wired reference is not a trivial mention, as it provides a full quote from her, as well as describes her appearance. Jackdude101 talk cont 02:01, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- The entirety of the relevant content in the Wired article is
“Like anime, it once started as a very niche thing and has been slowly growing,” says Vtuber Iron Mouse, a pink-haired girl with devil horns who’s been streaming since 2018. “I think it will only get better and more exciting from here. The more the merrier, I say!”
I don't see that as substantial coverage. power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:09, 26 October 2020 (UTC)- Per WP:Notability,
"Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material."
. Obviously, the article as it stands now is no where near, say, featured article status, but it does meet a bare minimum threshold to stay. Furthermore, regarding the usage of TwitchTracker as a source, it is currently being used as a source in several other articles, including the List of most-followed Twitch channels article, which is currently getting over 3,000 views a day on avarage. Jackdude101 talk cont 02:29, 26 October 2020 (UTC) - On a separate note, since the start of this discussion, an additional reliable source has been added to the article that further establishes this topic's notability. Jackdude101 talk cont 03:24, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- That is a prime example of a trivial mention. If the Chiacgo Tribune wrote, "I like editing Wikipedia," says Indy beetle, a short brown-haired fellow who's been editing since 2016. "The more editors the merrier!" I would not suddenly become notable. -Indy beetle (talk) 20:24, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- Per WP:Notability,
- The entirety of the relevant content in the Wired article is
- Delete This seems like a prime example of WP:TOOSOON. All I see are WP:TRIVIAL mentions.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 13:01, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Zxcvbnm: Like I said to power~enwiki above, her mention in the first article is not trivial, as it describes her general appearance and includes a quote by her. Also, on the topic of WP:TOOSOON, please note the subsection about Entertainers, which states the following:
...even if failing the GNG, might still be reasonably presumed as notable if having..."a large fan base or a significant "cult" following"...
. Per Ironmouse's Twitch page, she has 225K followers; and per her YouTube page, she has 145K subscribers. Those are not small numbers. Jackdude101 talk cont 13:38, 26 October 2020 (UTC)- (edit conflict) Fame is not a valid criteria for notability. It tends to be related to notability, in that someone is more likely to be notable if they are famous (which is what that quote refers to), but that alone cannot qualify someone for an article. The mention in the Wired article is the very definition of trivial. I'd expect entire articles about Ironmouse, or at least lengthy mentions, not just the fact that they were asked for a quote.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 13:43, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Zxcvbnm: it seems that WP:TOOSOON and WP:FAME contradict each other on this point, because the former states that a large fan base is enough to reasonably assume that the topic is notable, while the latter is suggesting the opposite. Which of the two guidelines is the superior one? I should also mention the second article, since no one has discussed that one, which describes Ironmouse as a leader in the increasing popularity trend of VTubers. All of these different pieces of info from this small, but, reliable, handful of sources points directly to notability. Jackdude101 talk cont 13:57, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- From what I can tell it's very much in favor of WP:FAME. In fact the entire "reasonably assume" thing is cited rather often and taken the wrong way. Especially when it comes to Streamers and Youtubers, where fame is subjective. It's probably meant to apply more to non-Internet-famous people.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 14:01, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- See, that's the thing...you are saying it's PROBABLY meant to apply to non-Internet-famous people. It would be different if the policy stated as such outright, but it does not, and as such is open to interpretation, and in this case, flexible. Also, the figures I stated above regarding the large number of followers she has on multiple platforms are not subjective; they are facts. Jackdude101 talk cont 14:13, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- I agree it is flexible. However from what I've seen there is not really any room for uncertainty or flexibility, such as maybe it being a borderline case. WP:GNG is the ultimate policy that ALL articles must follow and this article fails it unequivocally. A GNews search for "Ironmouse" only comes up with the Wired article with the one sentence mention. According to GNG it has to be enough information to reasonably construct a detailed article without original research.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 15:28, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- See, that's the thing...you are saying it's PROBABLY meant to apply to non-Internet-famous people. It would be different if the policy stated as such outright, but it does not, and as such is open to interpretation, and in this case, flexible. Also, the figures I stated above regarding the large number of followers she has on multiple platforms are not subjective; they are facts. Jackdude101 talk cont 14:13, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- From what I can tell it's very much in favor of WP:FAME. In fact the entire "reasonably assume" thing is cited rather often and taken the wrong way. Especially when it comes to Streamers and Youtubers, where fame is subjective. It's probably meant to apply more to non-Internet-famous people.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 14:01, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Zxcvbnm: it seems that WP:TOOSOON and WP:FAME contradict each other on this point, because the former states that a large fan base is enough to reasonably assume that the topic is notable, while the latter is suggesting the opposite. Which of the two guidelines is the superior one? I should also mention the second article, since no one has discussed that one, which describes Ironmouse as a leader in the increasing popularity trend of VTubers. All of these different pieces of info from this small, but, reliable, handful of sources points directly to notability. Jackdude101 talk cont 13:57, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Fame is not a valid criteria for notability. It tends to be related to notability, in that someone is more likely to be notable if they are famous (which is what that quote refers to), but that alone cannot qualify someone for an article. The mention in the Wired article is the very definition of trivial. I'd expect entire articles about Ironmouse, or at least lengthy mentions, not just the fact that they were asked for a quote.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 13:43, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Zxcvbnm: Like I said to power~enwiki above, her mention in the first article is not trivial, as it describes her general appearance and includes a quote by her. Also, on the topic of WP:TOOSOON, please note the subsection about Entertainers, which states the following:
- Delete. The only references to "Ironmouse" used in the sources are passing mentions. We can't keep an article based on one quote without in WP:DEPTH coverage. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:42, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
- Update: Two more sources were added to the article today, bringing the total number of published sources mentioning Ironmouse to four. Despite the fact that these four sources only mention her, they are all reputable and different, and were published several weeks apart. Furthermore, one of the sources, which was published a few days after this discussion began, states the following:
Twitch is home to several of the most prominent English-speaking Vtubers, from the impish Ironmouse to the virtual camgirl-turned-gamer Projekt Melody.
For context, Projekt Melody, as far as I know, is the only other English-speaking VTuber with a stand-alone English Wikipedia article, which I created back in February. Describing Ironmouse as being on a similar level as Projekt Melody, whose notability on Wikipedia is firmly established, is major and I recommend that everyone participating in this discussion take note of this fact before a final decision on the Ironmouse article's fate is made. Jackdude101 talk cont 18:40, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 12:55, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 12:55, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- The sources added remain WP:TRIVIAL. It still fails the criterion of "being able to write an article on them without original research". A few sentences of vague personal info does not an article make.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 15:07, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- Delete. I cannot see any notability in this at all, ignoring sources 2 to 5 because 2 is a database, 3 is a Medium article which is a blog hosting service and thus self-published and not reliable, 4 and 5 are trivial mentions. So here is all the coverage we have here:
“Like anime, it once started as a very niche thing and has been slowly growing,” says Vtuber Iron Mouse, a pink-haired girl with devil horns who’s been streaming since 2018. “I think it will only get better and more exciting from here. The more the merrier, I say!”
- This is a quote, and with very little commetary on top, the commentary that it there is simply contextual. Dylsss(talk • contribs) 16:31, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not really familiar with the deletion criterions and just randomly passing by but WP:FAME also seems quite questionable since not even any of the English Hololive VTubers with some having close to 10 times as many subscribers[1] have their own page. 178.10.194.52 (talk) 16:53, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- Delete. Fails WP:GNG and WP:ENT. KidAd talk 20:15, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.