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Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2024 September 19

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19 September 2024

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Penelope Brudenell, Countess of Cardigan

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Penelope Brudenell, Countess of Cardigan (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I am requesting a review because I am dumbfounded by the interpretation of consensus. The article was nominated for deletion because it fails WP:GNG: it has not received significant coverage in reliable sources. The Keep !votes argue that "she would almost certainly have more sources if historical sources wrote more about women". Somehow this speculative argument has been found to outweigh the fact that there is, in fact, no significant coverage of the subject in reliable sources. Is it now enough to assert that sources would have existed if the world were a different place? Is this going to apply to content disputes as well? Surtsicna (talk) 18:35, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse - The closure of No Consensus was a valid closure, and the closer provided an adequate closing statement that addresses the appellant's concern. The appellant says that there is insufficient coverage of the subject. The closer acknowledges this argument, and says that her position was notable, and that the argument that her position was notable was made in support of the Keep statements. It is somewhat unusual for a closer to make a closing statement in support of No Consensus, and the closer should be thanked. The appellant appears to be saying that the closer should have discounted the Keep statements. The Keep position was soundly argued based on notability of the position of Lady of the Bedchamber, and the closer relied on this argument. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:44, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    How's that soundly? —Alalch E. 21:20, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Robert McClenon, which notability guideline says that holders of notable offices are themselves inherently notable? Such a position is entirely contrary to Wikipedia's notability guideline. It is, in fact, a classic example of inherited notability fallacy. Surtsicna (talk) 22:00, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn to delete. The delete side has successfully argued that the article is not suitable for retention on notability and WP:NOTGENEALOGY grounds and the argument that the courtly function is a notable topic is a red herring and is a question relevant to the article about that court title, not this biography. Some keeps admitted that the sourcing is not there, which means they made an observation consistent with the conclusion that the article should be deleted. They then excused this by saying that in her time the subject wasn't covered much because of systemic bias, but this does not matter as Wikipedia can't fix historic injustices. They did not argue that the article is a suitable encyclopedic entry in spite of a lack of notability, by explaining what its encyclopedic value is. Its encyclopedic value can't be that we're covering non-notable women from 250 years ago to make a point about systemic bias. The only reasonable close would have been to weigh such arguments less favorably than the clear policy-based arguments and to find that there is a rough consensus coming from the policy-based delete advocacy. —Alalch E. 21:14, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mikheil Lomtadze

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Mikheil Lomtadze (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Hello. Please consider restoring the article. It was deleted twice before. The last time on September 19, the article was removed by quick deletion. It was in draft for a long time and then moved to the main space. The article is written in a neutral tone with authoritative sources. There were no claims to significance in the draft. There were questions regarding the style of presentation. The draft has been corrected. However, after moving to the main space, the article was deleted. 195.49.205.23 (talk) 09:43, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. Previous deletion review: Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2022 April 7#Mikheil Lomtadze. I'm leaning toward simply assuming that the content was sufficiently identical in spite of the stated corrections regarding style.—Alalch E. 10:50, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I cleaned the article of advertising phrases and unnecessary sources. Please look at the latest deleted version of the article. It was moved from the draft. 195.49.205.23 (talk) 10:52, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse and speedy close. Both AfDs, the previous DRV, and the subsequent G4 were all correct. Someone seems to be paying good money to revive this self-aggrandizing curriculum vitae, and our goal should be to minimize the time wasted by other editors re-reviewing this. Consider adding to WP:DEEPER if this comes back here again. Owen× ☎ 10:56, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You are very categorical. The person is significant. The last edition of the article was not written in an advertising tone. I submitted a request here to discuss restoring the article. The deleted article was not created bypassing recovery. It was in draft for a long time and then was moved. All comments have been eliminated. Nobody pays any money! There is no monetary interest on my part! 195.49.205.23 (talk) 11:00, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll endorse this too. The text is different, but there are no new relevant, substantive factual changes except his purchase of Wycombe Wanderers F.C. (BBC ref). 20 of 32 refs were present in at least one of the versions deleted at afd, most of the rest aren't WP:SIGCOV, and at least one has the same text as one of the refs in the previous versions (there were 75 of those; I'm not about to read them all). —Cryptic 11:20, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You can cut out even more of the text and make a stub. The person is significant according to Wikipedia criteria. And as the owner of a football club, and as the owner of the largest bank in Kazakhstan. I did not intend to make an advertisement out of this article. I was editing a draft that someone had created over a year ago that had been moved into the main space. 195.49.205.23 (talk) 11:27, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The way you have constructed your DRV nomination makes it impractical to process. You should have made a new draft precisely along the lines of "make a stub" based entirely on the WP:THREE best references so that the draft speaks for itself as evidence that a suitable encyclopedia entry is possible. Lack of certainty among editors that it is possible is literally the thing that causes the article to be repeatedly deleted. Do you want to do that? Please remember, three. —Alalch E. 12:54, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:THREE is as usual good advice, but "make a stub" in this case isn't - there was a new article. The problem is that, whether long (the 2024 and September 2022 deletions) or short (the March 2022 deletion and proposed new stub), there doesn't seem to be anything to say about this person other than that he has a whole lot of money; that he's spent some of it; that he's run a couple redlinked companies; and that there's a bunch of very shallow and similar articles saying all that. —Cryptic 13:38, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note logs at alternate romanization Mikhail Lomtadze. —Cryptic 13:38, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn G4 to keep. I came across the most recent incarnation of this page during New Page Review and was prepared to G4 it, but as I checked the sources, they did include SIGCOV in independent reliable sources. As a result, I decided to mark it as reviewed. (I also wanted to defer to the judgment of Dr vulpes, who published the article at AfC, which is precisely where a COI editor should be expected to submit content.) This could be is a DRV#3 case, where there's new coverage and new information (principally Lomtadze's acquisition of a football club, which resulted in new SIGCOV meeting the standard (see BBC and Vedomosti). It's also a case of DRV#5, in which the two deletion nominations did not rely on a detailed source analysis. I believe the nominations were made in good faith (there is clearly COI/UPE going on) but the nomination statements did not show evidence of a WP:BEFORE search, and neither the (very poorly argued) "keep" !votes nor the (good faith) "delete" !votes did any detailed source evaluation. Instead, the discussion focused more on Lomtadze being most greatest businessman in most glorious nation of Kazakhstan! (the keeps) while the deletes focused on the UPE and COI issues plus the low-quality sources present in the article. However, a WP:BEFORE search finds SIGCOV in Forbes (by Forbes staff and thus a reliable source), in Bloomberg News in 2020 and again in November 2022. In Georgian, we have a major in-depth profile on Radio Tavisupleba and coverage in Fortune.ge. I think it's time to revisit these previous discussions and overturn to "keep," while protecting the page to mitigate COI editing. Alternatively, we could bring this to a new AfD where the sources can be re-evaluated, particularly those that have been published since the last AfD in 2022. Dclemens1971 (talk) 13:56, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn G4 (do nothing else; don't touch the AfD, which is not even contested). Not sufficiently identical (text significantly different and article less refbombed) and too heavily contested for a speedy deletion. AfD said the content was promotional but notability worth exploring, and then an AfC reviewer accepted the submission apparently accepting the new text as not promotional and a new page patroller marked the article as reviewed. So the last incarnation was a non-negligible attempt to fix the promo side at least, while notability is neither here nor there in terms of settledness because not even the AfD was closed as "delete" purely on the grounds of lack of notability, and in this DRV notability is being revisited kind of de novo. G4 isn't the correct tool to address this.—Alalch E. 17:16, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changed to Resubmit to AfD per the source analysis done by Dclemens1971. I still see no fault in the AfDs or the previous DRV, but there's no need to deprive ourselves of a potentially notable topic just to punish COI editors. A semi-protect for the article would be advisable. Owen× ☎ 17:37, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Time for a new AfD based on the new version that was just G4ed. Semi Involved as closer of 2022 AfD. While I don't know whether factors have sufficiently changed that Lomtadze is notable and don't have time or interest to dig into the sources, it's worth community discussion and not a speedy. Star Mississippi 17:54, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Endorse of G4 - I haven't seen either the 1 September 2022 version deleted by Star Mississippi after the second AFD, or the 19 September 2024 version deleted by Sandstein as G4, and we don't have a statement by Sandstein that the 2024 version was substantially the same as the 2022 version, so I will trust that Sandstein concluded that the 2024 version was substantially the same as the 2022 version. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:59, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Allow Submission of Draft, subject to review either by administrator, or by reviewer who is given copy of 2022 article, but not recreation of article. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:59, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Requesting tempundel to review the G4 with more certainty.—Alalch E. 21:17, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn G4. Above source analysis shows the version deleted in the AFD and the G4ed version are not sufficiently similar. This can be sent to AFD if desired. Frank Anchor 02:03, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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