Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2022 August 27

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August 27

Saxophone = "knife murder"

Is the Etymonline entry for saxophone mistaken in saying the suffix is Greek -phonos? (I'm kidding about the knife part but I thought it fitted together nicely.)  Card Zero  (talk) 03:10, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Given that hoya saxa supposedly means "what rocks", maybe you could have used "rock murder". --Trovatore (talk) 20:15, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Relatedly, the word for 'knife' in Basque has been claimed to come from a root meaning 'stone', suggesting it dates back to the Neolithic. However, the claim has been disputed. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.208.90.29 (talk) 21:26, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

There are lots of English words with "phone" or "phono" in them, which refer to sound. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:20, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

However if you compare the entry for xylophone, it says it's from Greek phōnē, which is not the same as phonos. I was reading about the prehistoric creature Thalassophonea, and before I began reading I casually translated the name as "ocean sounds". In fact it means "ocean murderer". That set me wondering why there aren't more English words using this root, when there are lots with "phone" or "phono" as you say. One root was productive, the other wasn't.  Card Zero  (talk) 07:59, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

According to wiktionary wikt:φωνή#Derived_terms_2, there is a Greek suffix -φωνος (-fonos) related to phōnē, so that is probably what -phonos in the Etymonline entry for saxophone is referring to. TSventon (talk) 08:53, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Oh yes. Maybe? In the modern Greek section. I looked for something like that, but I was looking in the Ancient Greek declensions.  Card Zero  (talk) 09:10, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

(ec) That is a Modern Greek suffix, likely borrowed back from the English/French suffix -phone, which in actual use is -φωνο (-fono) without the final sigma: τηλέφωνο (tiléfono), μικρόφωνο (mikrófono), γραμμόφωνο (grammófono). Wiktionary gives the suffix in saxophone as also from Ancient Greek φωνή (phōnḗ). I think the Etymonline entry is mistaken.  --Lambiam 09:28, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

The suffix -φωνος with the final sigma is almost exclusively used about people speaking a certain language, either as an adjective or as a derived noun: ελληνόφωνος (ellinóphonos, meaning 'Greek-speaking' or 'Greek-speaker'). --T*U (talk) 10:42, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

The two different roots are the words φόνος (with omikron and stress on the first syllable), meaning 'murder', and φωνή (with omega and stress on the second syllable), meaning 'sound'. Both omikron and omega are translitated as 'o', and the Greek stress is almost never mirrored in English. Also φωνή has a derived suffix -φωνός -φωνος (mea culpa, it is always unstressed) in modern Greek (as noted by TSventon), and both word produce suffixes with '-ία' (-φονία, -φωνία) with the stress transferred to the iota, so that only the ο/ω difference remains. This is bound to create ambiguity in English word using these roots, while the Greeks can use the vowel as an etymological marker, as in δολοφονία (dolofonía, wilful murder) and κακοφωνία (kakofonía, bad sound cf. 'cacophony'). It may be a good thing that the English language mostly prefers to use only one of these roots. Having said that, the link in the Etymonline entry shouold definitely go to -phone, not to -phonos! --T*U (talk) 09:27, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

It does. DuncanHill (talk) 11:30, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

It says "Greek -phonos "voiced, sounding" (see -phone)." But the link to -phone doesn't clarify where -phonos comes from.  Card Zero  (talk) 13:40, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

The main EO page says the author can be reached at etymonline@protonmail.com, so you could try posing this issue to him. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:42, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

OK, done.  Card Zero  (talk) 10:27, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

OED says "Etymology: < the name Sax (see saxhorn n.) + Greek -ϕωνος voiced, sounding. DuncanHill (talk) 11:29, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Woah. What does the OED say for xylophone?  Card Zero  (talk) 13:36, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

"Etymology: < Greek ξύλον (see xylo- comb. form) + ϕωνή voice, sound." DuncanHill (talk) 13:40, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

OED has for "-phone, comb. form" - "Origin: A borrowing from Greek. Etymon: Greek -ϕωνος.

Etymology: < ancient Greek -ϕωνος, combining form (in e.g. βαρβαρόϕωνος speaking a foreign language, ὁμόϕωνος speaking the same language, having the same sound or tone) of ϕωνή voice, sound, language, probably < the base of ϕάναι to say (see phatic adj.). Compare French -phone, German -phon.

First recorded in loans from Greek, as homophone n., polyphone n.; formations within English (e.g. dyphone n., microphone n.) are found from the 17th cent. and become very common from the first half of the 19th cent. onwards" DuncanHill (talk) 13:51, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm gonna have to email Ancient Greece about this.  Card Zero  (talk) 14:03, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps this is the sort of thing that Wells was referring to in The Time Machine. DuncanHill (talk) 14:48, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

L&S does indeed have an entry βαρβαρόϕωνος,^[1] as does Bailly.^[2]  --Lambiam 20:24, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Barbarophone, barbarophonic - what great new words to add to my vocabulary. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:36, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

By the way, the Greek "murder" word is derived from a Proto-Indo-European root ghwen-, while the Greek "voice" word is derived from a Proto-Indo-European root bheh2- (or the second-listed of two PIE roots on that page)... AnonMoos (talk) 07:51, 28 August 2022 (UTC)